 So that had a pretty significant impact on the way that you perceived the profession and maybe the role of the teacher. Yeah. And the role of other folks in the system. I think it also put in the back of my mind this idea that maybe I could have an influence. At the time I had never thought about doing anything other than teaching. I love teaching. And it put in the back of my mind that there are ways you can influence the environment of educators and ways that you can have a positive influence on the lives of others. And I think from that point on I began to think about strategically how do you begin to put in place the kinds of elements that make us successful, where are those areas that impede our progress that move forward. And I've struggled with that throughout my career. I'm still struggling with that. How do we been, we've had pockets of innovation in education over the years, but the system seems to be able to repel those very, very directly. And why is that the case? Well, what I've learned over time is that the systems we've put in place don't create that kind of environment that allows us to learn from our experiences and to grow as a profession. And so I've tried to remove those as much as possible throughout my career. Some successes. Some that have been pushed back. But I guess the thing that's inside me is that that is a quest worth taking on, even though it may be longer and I get impatient from time to time, but I have to keep reminding myself we are making progress in this country and we are improving the way we work with students and our learners. So it sounds like part of the impetus then for looking at the system that happened as a result of that program which maybe led you to then move into some positions where you were looking at the bigger picture and able to influence how that looked. First, I was able to do that at a Department of Education and to do it in a way that influenced the development of a program which led me to the national level, the U.S. Department. I wrote the regulations for a federal program and I could see that relationship between the federal government and the states and attempted to put in place a program that was supportive. It was having to be community education at that point, but a part of the discretionary programs that came in the 70s. But I could see that the way in which you write the sort of rules in which you're going to interact with folks and the relationships you establish with state education agency folks do influence how they then interact with folks at the local level. And the importance of all of those being strong actors in the process. In this process, did you have any mentors along the way? Most of my mentors were peers, which is strange to say. I, of course, had interaction with a lot of the thought folks in the country, but those interactions were primarily around content areas. There were long-term sustained relationships. But there's a person here in Kenawa County, Doug Walters, that I formed a relationship with in graduate school. We then later worked together over years and I learned a tremendous amount of money. In that relationship, I learned a tremendous amount of knowledge that I didn't have prior to our relationship and a way of interacting with folks. We were a complementary personality. So I consider that kind of relationship to be a strong mentor. Now I've had those other kinds of relationships as I moved through the career. I find individuals that have strengths that I don't have and I find folks who have a knowledge base that I can gain and refine my own thinking around. And I stay with those folks for a period of time and I think those are the lasting relationships for me, the mentorships that really make a difference. And when you're talking about this, you're not necessarily talking about it in past tense. No, I still have a relationship with those individuals. I've sustained them over many years of work and education. So you hold on to them, they're dear. After all, I think folks have to know you deeply and are willing to approach you very openly and frankly. And I think that out of those kinds of relationships, it causes you to reflect more deeply about who you are, where you're going, what you're thinking, what you need to do. I think without that sort of strong, long-term relationship with folks, it's going to be difficult to grow and to reflect and to take on some deep reflections about yourself that you need to take on in life. I'm sure as you work with state chiefs and others in significant positions in leadership, it sounds like you communicate that to them. I try to, I try to. The most important relationship one can have is a human relationship and a trusting relationship with other folks. Then the expertise can come, the knowledge acquisition can come in multiple forms. But that's something I've tried to do when I've worked with staff in SEAs. I've tried to say to them that they know more about some things than I know. I feel like I can bring some things to that conversation, but it's going to take both of us working together to make these things advance and to work more effectively for kids. And that's easy for some folks to do and refreshing for some folks to take on. But it's difficult for others. They've been accustomed to someone telling them what to do and how to do it. And when you say to folks, I'm counting on you to come to the table with the ideas and the thoughts. And I'm counting on you to be receptive to other people's ideas. And I'm counting on you to be a member of a team that moves forward. And I'm counting on you to take risks. And I'm counting on you being honest with me when things don't work and when you think I'm off track. And sometimes in the relationships we establish, folks are not as comfortable with that. But I think once they get comfortable with that, you develop a dynamic of teamwork that you don't get in other circumstances. And that's one of the things I've been proud of and the positions I've held. I've worked very hard at building those internal teams that have that kind of openness and aggressiveness with each other in many of these cases, the things we're talking about are not personal. They're about the enterprise we're engaged in. They're about public education. They're about learning. And sometimes we're wise about those decisions and sometimes you need to be called on those decisions and you need to be able to take that in and work constructively in that kind of environment.