 τώρα θα πάρω όλα τα υπροσφασία από τα τέτοια πριν για κάτι πιο ενδοχεία της προσφασίας. Οπότε δεν θα προέβω τίποτα κάτι για τη νέα σου. Δεν θα προέβω τίποτα κάτι για εμένα. Στον πιο απλότι θα προέβω είναι να ανοίξω σιόδη να βρήξω και να προσφασίσω να βρείτε ένα λίγο πιο πολύ. Για την σειρά. Λοιπόν, αυτό που θα σας πω και αν θα σου δημιουργήσεις το ελαμβό Θα δείξεις ότι θα θέλω να πω σε slido.com και θα το χρησιμοποιήσουμε στις τούλες για να αντιμετωπίσουμε σήμερα, αλλά και την ίδια φορία θα χρησιμοποιήσω μία σκρίνα με τη στιγμή που θα δείξεις όταν θα δείξεις μία σκρίνα. Μπορείς να δείξεις μία σκρίνα τώρα. Ναι. Ok, Αξιολογή. Αν θα πω σε slido.com και θα το χρησιμοποιήσεις την χασία real RRI. Θα βρεις να δείξεις για να δείξεις το σκρίνα που μπορείς να δείξεις όταν πω μία σκρίνα. Και θα δείξεις όταν θα δάσεις ότι η μόνη που έγινε είναι να ξεκινήσεις με ένα κερδίδιο σκρίνα. Είμαι πέντες ότι έχεις δει τρεις ειδίες αλλά δεν είναι τρεις ειδίες. Είναι μόνο ένας ειδίες. Το πρόβλημα με το σλίδο δεν είναι τρεις ειδίες. Είναι η λιμιτέρα των ειδίες που μπορείτε να χρησιμοποιήσεις. Είναι αυτό γιατί έχω σκέψει αυτά σε τρεις ειδίες. Αλλά οι πρόβληματος ραχαίκες, από όλες τις συμβουλίες που είχαμε σήμερα, είναι το στιγό της στιγμής του Άμαλγανου να αγήψει την εξεγωγή της ειδίες. Είναι ανοίχιστο με την ίδια στιγμή να αγήψει πολλές εξεγωγές για να εξεγωγήσει τις εξεγωγές της συμβουλίες. Αν το στιγμή που εμείς πρέπει να μην χρειάζουμε είναι ότι δούμε εξεγωγές και εξεγωγές στην οργανισμία. Είχαμε πολλές δεύτερες αλλά η πραγματική που θα θέλω να δούμε είναι την εξεγωγή σας. Και θέλω να σας αγήψω αυτά τα εξεγωγή που έχετε. Τώρα δεν θα έχουμε μόνο αυτή την εξεγωγή σας, εξεγωγή μου, επειδή πρέπει να εξεγωγήσω από πολλές εξεγωγές. Θα ξεκινήσω με την πρώτη εξεγωγή και μπορείς να χρησιμοποιήσεις μετά αυτή τη δημιουργία για να δείξεις δεν τα εξεγωγές, αλλά τα εξεγωγές, εξεγωγές, πράγματα που θα θέλεις να γίνεις και τότε θέλω να σας αγόψεις να ξεκινήσεις την εξεγωγή και να σας αγωγήσεις τις δεύτερες. Λοιπόν, ξεκινήσουμε με την πρώτη εξεγωγή, ώστε να εξεγωγήσουμε και ένα λίγο παισιμιστικό πρόβλημα. Πολλές είναι οι βαρειές για να εξεγωγήσουμε τα δεύτερες εξεγωγές. Τι είναι η εξεγωγή σας που σας δείξει ότι είναι η βαρειά, η κρήτησή, πρόβλημα also, για να εξεγωγήσουμε τα δεύτερες εξεγωγές και για να μπορείς να δείξεις ότι μπορείς να εξεγωγήσεις επίσης να πάρεις στο σλίδο και να αγωγήσεις ένα λίγο παιδί σας εξεγωγή, okay, είπαμε να προσπαθήσουμε κάτι, δεν θα κάνουμε ένα άλλο πρόβλημα, οπότε θα εξεγωγήσω ένα πρόβλημα για εσένας, όπου είπαμε να εξεγωγήσουμε τα δεύτερες εξεγωγές και να εξεγωγήσουμε κάποιες βαρειές, okay, εξεγωγήσουμε και τα κρήτησή που υπάρχει στον εξεγωγή της Αραρίας, και θα σας εξεγωγήσω να πήγε σε αυτή η πόλή και να εξεγωγήσουμε τρεις, που πιστεύουν οι πιο σημαντικές, να μπορώ να εξεγωγήσω τα δεύτερες και να συναντήσω ένα λίγο παιδί για να σας εξεγωγήσω, but before I will do that, please someone open the microphone and tell me that you manage with Slido right in the chat if you are facing any kind of problems. I'm already in Slido, I had some issues at the beginning, but if we write in our web browser, the URL, we can enter Izou. Yeah, if you will see, okay, it's slido.com, I have it in the chat and then you have to put real RRI in the hashtag. Yes, we can access it. Okay, good. So I may start by repeating, okay, what I said that we are focusing initially in the barriers. I saw that some people already you start, you know, putting your ideas in the poll. And I give you options there, as I've told you from things that I found in the literature, the RRI concept under development. So a lot of confusion still, okay, there are different views and understandings of RRI and this creates a kind of a problem. The Western Eurocentrism, okay, it was one of the big criticisms of this RRI concept. So little chance to buy in at the global level. No clear division of labor in the sphere of responsibility in the innovation activity. So there was no clear indication of what is actually expected and at what stage from innovating businesses. The fourth one, tension between excellence and responsibility both in science and business. Everything all activities relate to RRI as an additional burden that makes innovation more costly and time consuming. A fifth one, insistence on transparency and open access. So corporate strategies of intellectual property management not aligned with the open access paradigm. The sixth shortage of understandable needs to use tools to measure responsible innovation in business. And the rest I believe that they are really self-experienced. Okay, some people they say it's a very bureaucratic process and they don't like that especially in the innovation part. Political barriers, institutional barriers, social barriers. There is some criticism, is it needed? Is there a proven advantage of RRI and a resistance change? So I see that slowly you're becoming very active in the poll and that's good. I will give you one or two minutes more to put your view in this poll. And then you can go to the Q&A part of Slido and you can start typing your views but at the same time you can take the floor and start George, I just want to raise a question just to be sure that so you are just sharing the one web page in Slido. This is what you want to do because I see that you are navigating in different windows but I am not sure if this is just for you or if you want to share also with us. This is just a question. No, I was saying I wanted to share one screen. I'm sharing more. No, no, no, you are just sharing one screen. Okay, one screen. And normally it's only one poll. It's only one poll. We are not sharing the results. You want to share the results? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not sharing the results. Okay, okay, okay. I just want to be sure as you are clicking in different things I'm not sure if you you are aware that you are only sharing one web page. Yeah, yeah, I've told you. It is okay. I have to exactly several. Thank you very much. Okay, so I can share. Yeah, I believe that I can stop and deactivate the poll so that you will have now focus on the space that you can go and write things and I can share a little bit the views that you had already. So who would like to start saying something about these barriers? It seems that the institutional change, the institutional barriers are the ones that you like the most. So the floor is yours. Okay, it's open to you. And as I said, okay, it is the time that you should speak and not us. And Paula, I would like you to help me, okay, because for a reason I cannot see Yes, the participants above. If you put your mouse above the red line, you will see the if you put the mouse, if you cross the mouse above where you are, where you see the information when sharing the screen. I do, but I cannot even see. Maybe it's better if you stop sharing the screen for a little bit just to reshape your desktop, because I suppose the shut window, the participants list window is fully open. So this is why you cannot see it. So only if you do like kind alt tab, alt tab in your keyboard, you will see it. But maybe if you stop Ah, yeah, it's very small. Yeah, I can stop sharing. Then you initiate again, then you will organize your environment. Yeah, but you can start sharing the screen once again, but this will No, no, because everyone went to Slido, so everyone is using that so they can see the screen. So who would like to open his camera and his microphone and offer something regarding the you may raise your hands. I'm sorry, George, you have already a comment on the chat from Ellen Marie. Okay, Ellen Marie, you wrote a very big comment. Would you like to just open your microphone and share this thing with us? Yes, sorry about that. Because you have too many things to say, okay. So it was just I was looking at the list on Slido and then we actually had a presentation of barriers last year and I didn't recognize exactly the same ones. So I didn't know what to cross and what to check in the poll. Thought I would just share all of them. So but the most important one was lack of resources, lack of money, time, people training and expertise to actually do it in organizations. And the lack of incentives as well. The lack of resources, okay. It's a usual thing that we listen to whatever you will try to propose, okay. And you will try to offer some kind of institutional change anyway. It makes sense, of course, okay, because you know many times we are asking people to do things and they say, okay, what are the resources that I have available. But do you think also that there is also an excuse sometimes to avoid, you know, to resist to change? Maybe, but I think that a lot of people in these organizations are just so under so much pressure already that there is really no extra resources to do this extra, you know, activities on science communication or things that are not seen as, you know, what they really have to do. So no, I think it can be an excuse but often it's actually the case. Okay. I will share my experience since, you know, people are a little bit shy in the beginning. I remember that when they introduced ethics in the university, coming also from computer science, it's important to say that, okay, because usually we have projects, okay, that we are not involving people, okay. So there are many of us that they never thought about ethics, to be honest, okay. And that's a big problem also when AI comes now into play. But I remember when they introduced the whole thing several years back, yeah, I saw it as an extra thing, right. We should have someone in the department to coordinate the whole thing. So it was, you know, something more, as you said, and we are full with teaching with various sets that you're trying to do. So asking something extra, yeah, you have to give the right resources, you're right. Thank you very much. George, you ever hear another question from Kakel Almaida? Okay, yeah. It's not my view. I've told you that I just went through the literature and I saw that some people were criticizing, you know, RRI as being something that comes from the western countries in Europe and probably it's not very appropriate regarding the rest of the countries. And especially if you will go also probably outside Europe, there was a criticism that you won't manage, you know, to pass the idea. But it's not my view. I mean, if I may come in here, it's a concept and some of the keys and the concept that is very let's say classical, liberal, enlightenment concept. So in this sense it is can be viewed by others like very Eurocentric or very western concept. I mean, probably highlighting issues like ethics that are public engagement and so on. It's very important while in other cases may not be so important. Sorry. I just want to also to contribute and to share my view. So based on what you have put it in the slide and also with this Ellen Marie contribution with this list of also topics for the discussion. From the perspective of open science and RRI specifically based on my experiences of things related to open access and open data, the lack of clear policies and clear mandates I think are one of the barriers because there are studies that when we talk about open access publications and open data clearly state that if there are clear policies or mandates that the policies and mandates are aligned with the infrastructure and services made available for the community, this will make life easier and things that appear as difficult become more easy to do. And then in other areas the lack of incentives I think is also quite critical if there is clear incentives of course career progression but also sometimes budget money for research units that comply with some policies aligned with the RRI components or RRI or open science I think this is also interesting. But of course we need to change the incentives that are available within our institutions and not only. So also sometimes in the national framework of funding or with our funders etc. But I will put this in the top, this lack of clear policy and incentives for researchers. Pedro, I agree with you with incentives. I had a recent discussion. People also want also to be awarded and recognized. So one of the things that we should have when we are creating a plan for applying any kind of idea in this institution we have to remember to award also the ones that they will become champions of these ideas. Owen thank you very much for setting the report from the commission. Would you like to say something? I don't know if I have that much to say about it but just looking at the map for those of you who haven't been able to find it in the file. Greece is more or less the only country traditionally considered eastern which seems to have like an outsized presence in RRI projects and otherwise it's very much that you can see. Portugal has more involvement in RRI than much bigger Romania. Norway has the same level of involvement as much bigger Poland. So it does look like it's very western european dominated. I think. Yeah thank you. Yes thank you. I was just trying to clarify a little bit this Eurocentric approach or the idea that it is Eurocentric because I think it's the idea that other parts of the world also have different contexts and that RRI might not be the most fitting sort of concept or putting most priorities and same priorities as other countries have. Maybe they have different priorities and our context may also be very different. Their societies are organized in different ways so the stress on public participation may not be fitting according to some to all countries for example because they're organized in different ways. So it's more to clarify the issue of the idea that the concept of RRI is a western concept. Yes. Well I consider this to be absolutely natural. I mean if you if you want to care about things like RRI you need to do it from within a let's say prosperous society. I don't think that the people that in less prosperous societies care about these things because they have other more important things to care about. So I think it's natural that this concept is very popular let's say in western societies but this is not a disadvantage in my point of view. If a society which is not right now considered prosperous if in the future it becomes prosperous then I believe that they will start thinking about such concepts as well. But I think it's absolutely necessary that we have the situation this division between the west and the east let's say. Thank you Simón. Lucy, Patrícia, I see that you are saying something about the tools and inadequate awareness. Would you like to open your microphone and say? Okay I hope I'm clear. What I mentioned is that most of our corporations have not yet embraced RRI tools because what needs to be done is probably create awareness and maybe capacity building and then it can now be disseminated in the governance of those institutions. Yeah raising awareness. Is it clear? Yeah yes raising awareness is a very... Maria also you wrote something that some individuals organizations find it challenging to employ participatory RRI tools also related with the tools. Would you like to say something more? Yes hello well from the experience of some RRI projects it has been indicated that some organizations are eager to look for RRI tools and methods but face challenges on how to apply them. It seems that all this sometimes theoretical description or the academic arguments towards RRI confused let's say practitioners. So the lack of the actual participation in RRI activities and only reading about them I have seen that it creates some mere obstacles let's say. Thank you Maria. Fabio I would love to hear but unmute your microphone. Yeah yeah yeah great. Just about the western nature of the concert of RRI really I don't know if it is a western concert. What I can say is that in this along these years we we have many examples of how this concept has been in different way adopted or anyway a lot of some interest has been expressed by organization based in outside Europe and some of the the project that are represented here RRI practice and other at the monster and other that India, Africa and the United States in this in these areas there are many organizations which have followed this concert with interest because I think that what is important of this responsible of the responsible research innovation and is this aim to that RRI has to anticipate and assess the potential expectation and the societal implications of research and the aim of to foster inclusiveness and sustainability of research. These are important needs for research that are still important and that can be that are important for the western societies but also for the the rest of the of the world Okay Fabio, since we have you here one of the things that most of the people mentioned is the resistance to change. Have you noticed that in your experience? Some to change in the in the concert of RRI. Yeah I believe that we are referring to the concept of RRI but overall there is a resistance you know to change overall from people expecting something like that so they saw it as one of the most important barriers somehow. Yes I agree on that now I was just intervening on the possibility for this concert to be considered in the rest of the world outside Europe for the rest I think that one of the big barriers of this concert is the fact that it is composed by different the different sub-level or key issues of RRI are a different one from each other so for example if you if you see the and each each sub-key issue of RRI correspond to in some cases with two different communities the communities of gender is different from that of ethics and so on so probably one of the barriers of today applicability of RRIs also that there are many communities that are behind RRI. Okay so it's important to find a way to make the concert more more let's say more effective I don't know to use it in a better way but the things that are behind this concert are very alive and very important to be considered. Good Andrea would you like to say something this is a very good thing that you did okay and I suggest to the rest just open the cameras and when I will see your face I will understand that you want to say something it's way better okay and easier for me to handle okay Andrea. Well I would like to say that for the world this issue of the western sentry city it's pretty neat I mean it's important even if it wasn't mainly in our main agenda to talk about this because well I do believe that it's not so western based that the concept of RRI we don't have to forget that for example the big novelty of the last is what's called was the concept of frugal innovation that indeed was based on like indian and generally low-income countries we have like a series of like also books talking about these mainly by Navira Deux et Jadip Prabhu that was like named Jougade innovation and then the the next one called frugal innovation itself and it's very interesting because what they mainly argue in a couple of words of course is to do more with less and in this sense I think that more than western country like eastern country or are less reluctant to change because they experience somehow a bigger need than has to implement responsibility and frugality as a strategy to be competitive so I think that this is an interesting point of debate both in terms of considering that probably we are forced we are like biased in like reaching every phenomenon with a western lens and on the other hand to to be more reluctant to change than in some other places and probably the contemporary history shows that this reluctancy to change affects a colonial area like business not only like science or innovation in the western world thank you very much i will agree with you that the eastern countries they are more willing to do changes they want that i saw also myself okay when we were writing a proposal um reina ranya sorry if i'm pronouncing because i saw that you opened your camera would you like to say something sorry sorry no no i was actually having a similar point as the previous speaker so okay yeah and from the things that also fabio said okay i i they see i had the kind of a question myself is there a usability somehow possibly for example how important is the type of the organization but at the same also time the context okay because i believe that uh fabio something like that is uh was mentioning something like that okay either the context is scientific or probably regional in which uh are our implementation plans have been applied so we are trying to gather the best practices uh how important do you believe is the type of the organization and the context in which we apply these plans who'd like to respond to that setting experience elen marie you have a lot of um i can say at least that um the funding organizations as was put that earlier today they have a different context so they are often very closely connected to the state and um they are often very limited in what they can do based on outside impulses like from researchers like us so they have instructions from their ministry um that limits what they can kind of embrace so uh while it's a bit true for universities the universities have much more autonomy so so that is an important difference between those two but i can also comment on the on the imperialist uh or western focus so all right i don't know i think going back to academia as an institution it's global and all universities across the world wants to meet the conventions that are acknowledged for what is a good university or what is good research so that's i think they look to and and those that kind of define these conventions or values are seen as the best examples are in europe or and the u.s and so they look to europe and the u.s and so i think that they're kind of they're not necessarily they don't necessarily feel as pushed upon them but they look to see what's going on and how can we be like you know the best universities in the west because yeah that's what they aim to to be and i think that creates a common ground in the in the dialogue and i think maybe that it was a wake-up call for us at the project to see how how much of the same issues all of the funders and performing organizations were struggling with across the world you know we only worked with 23 organizations so it might not be the same for everyone but but i think most universities they they do relate to this overall idea what a good university with good researchers so if we can get all right to be part of that then you know it's going to be seen as kind of a natural thing not an imperialist thing but yeah two different points thank you very much haro am i pronouncing your name correctly yes thank you so i come back to this point of what is needed to make it to make it successful at organizations um whether it's imperialist or not so i leave that a bit aside but i really agree with the elemari that it's it should be something seen as normal and uh the the risk is that uh rri is framed as something that is on top of what researchers and organizations and firms have to do um whereas it would be so good if it was framed as something that this is just a way to become successful in what you want to do anyhow so to make research that makes sense and to to produce innovations that that really contribute to society and so indeed so it's i think it is something that takes some time to see it to reframe what you are doing at the university and at the firm and in research funding organizations so that it's not something that's on top but there's exactly what you are supposed to do and what you are wanting to do so um i think yeah we really shoot as a community try to change that framing and and it's not on top but it's just exactly what you want to do this is the thing you want to do thank you very much haro ranya you open your camera because you want to say now something yes yes okay yes i agree very much with haro that i think that a lot of organizations think it's something on top um and that that they already do a lot of the things with different concepts but we should find a way to sort of integrate them but i did want to respond also to because i think i think she's right in terms of that other universities in other parts of the world also look to universities in in america for example or in europe however i think that's also something that is challenged by some is this the system that we all should participate in should be rethink the system if we look at universities in i don't know south america do they do some things different differently than than that other universities do and may there be value in that and i don't think that's that's going against our right because it's a way of maybe looking at our right in a bit of a different way but i do think there's there's that tendency as well so universities yes they look to towards the existing system but there's also some universities that think okay but this whole system how was this built um is there some value in how we do things maybe differently in other contexts in other parts of the world and can we make that well maybe part of our array um so it's also a question like do we all go in yeah do we keep the system as such or is it also something that we can question that would be my contribution thank you ranya claudia you wrote a comment on our array that this context related would you like to take the floor also outcome yes i think that the or is a context related or is not i think this was also the experience is also the different context not only geographical but also sectorial for instance so but also if you talk about a right or research uh fundamental research or innovation for instance you can also have to to make a lot of work of this as a process of reflection and i think also it requires also a translation of the stake that are behind the keys for instance because for instance we can talk about this as a label and this is very risky what is the stake that for instance if you are in organization are behind that the key for instance research institutions the key of gender equality also as an organization is very high but you can risk only to talk in general know about gender for instance and in other contents in brazil in america for instance the reflection about not only gender but then gender and the intersectionality also in the context of research for the excellence of research or for the or how to include in the team diversity for improving research is a way for changing really organization but also for changing the practices on making the research more inclusive and also more excellent because also with the copy we see how this is very important so you can have a lot of work to do exactly for the contest without the contest organizational territorial geographical sectorial but also the application this is this is is the point is that require a lot of time so the issue is that it's a process that is not about to make a two-work shop or to make some meeting or some consultation so i think that also the idea to have a longer roadmap for the process and to wear hair on this is very important the context is absolutely what is very important it is that the big effort at least in our time my experiences that i found and when i go also outside europe i saw that we have to learn as a european research for instance for other contents for instance on gender intersectionality and about the public engagement that this is really conceived as a western concept and in some sense is rejected there are also approaches that are community engagement they use other approach so they can be but the state behind are the seeds because all the research we are all in danger in some way if you don't in some way modernize the governance of our research systems and we don't react to the big challenges and pressure that we have from society from the changes inside science and technology sorry well claudia i believe that you made a very strong point and and i see also eva that said something in the chat that says there is also the question who is responsible to train their career researchers i believe also that you are very right eva would you like to to say something about that eva okay but hello can you hear me yes we can hear you yeah sorry i uh uh yeah i think this this we discussed at the europe european council of doctor of candidates and your new researcher also the how to train the iricaris researcher who is responsible if the institutions or the researcher itself or in terms of iricaris researcher or doctor of candidates how this uh copyright and open science uh training can be incorporating in let's say doctoral training programs so then there we have been discussing like quality assurance agency that this should be the the component because it's really crucial to the young generation it's it's trained and then there was i also share something different this was a some study about the perception of plagiarism and generally about ethics and there are study that uh let's say eastern europe it's different about like uh see the the concept of ethics like differently so maybe there is less discussion generally less less training also in this topic so this is also which can influence the perception you're you're so right okay if we want to change the world we have to change it from the youngest generation so yeah the the the way that we'll educate people especially regarding research in the university is extremely important so if you don't have an ethics module uh because also i'm involved with territory myself and we are working with the region of central bachetonia about the gender and i've had you know many people saying that we should have you know some kind of gender studies probably in every discipline okay uh so it's about training the younger generation so we should have in every kind of tool that we have uh the right training for this early career researchers Giovanni yeah if i can add something that i'm now in chegrepablig and i'm working in national uh library of technology and we are also trying to support the university but i don't see nothing in uh let's say the strategic documents at national level about rri so these are strategic documents for the university as well so they don't they don't have some input from from government level let's say to to push this topic forward thank you giovanni uh yeah um i just wanted to point out to what i see as an important problem which is the the fact that in academia we have a bit this tendency to create fashions all the time and then to want to change uh the labels to introduce the the new concept and when we have ideas that need to be implemented um outside academia when we need the institutional change which is something that notoriously takes time it's not happening overnight this can be counterproductive because if people feel that things are just a passing fashion they will not engage into deep changes in their organization in their way of doing things but i think that on the other end it's also difficult to uh not having the temptation of wanting to change things because we learn we uh so we can come up with better ideas so how do we balance the the researchers commitment to to always do things better to in incorporate new knowledge and lessons learned and the temptation therefore to come up with new and better frameworks with the the need of giving some stability some uh impression that things are there to stay and therefore that people can commit to work uh on within a certain framework knowing that it will be a lasting one how can we deal with these paradox of uh giving stability and and keep improving as we accumulate new learning Giovanni i don't think that you're expecting me to answer now the question it's a very tough thing okay um you are right um and i will just say that yes it will take a lot of time for me you know things are happening top down and bottom up and the the the whole system it will need a lot of time in order to start adapting the whole concept i see are right to be honest as a set of values mainly that are good values in order to have responsible research and through the training and the younger generations i believe that we will move to a society that will be able you know to to move forward things like that in a more efficient way yeah okay nico you may open your microphone and uh yes i uh it's clear yeah to say something more than what i'm saying but uh in in the text uh but we are discussing i mean we're part of three or four rli projects right now and i have seen presentations from another ten maybe and there is a lot of discussion about research and a lot of discussion about the difficulties of academia to to adopt the whole framework or not to adopt it and so on uh we discuss much less on innovation and innovation necessarily includes uh companies firms and so on uh perhaps an idea would be to uh to try to translate that in their own language because uh companies don't have ever arrived but they have csr they have corporate social responsibility you talk to them they will say yeah yeah what you are saying is what we're doing in corporate social responsibility or both i'm not an expert of that but perhaps it's an idea to try to translate it in a in a language that it's more easily understood by by companies and to to focus a little bit on innovation as well that's what i want to say yeah i agree with you nico probably the focus in the research part and the focus in the university has to do all the training that we're discussing till now that it is needed but you're right towards the language also in many many cases we saw that it was a barrier even trying to translate from one language to another people had different kinds of understanding when you were translating one ten from English you know to to another language uh now even more with the idea of the context also that we discussed if you are changing context probably you have to use the right language in order for people to understand you uh would like would someone like to add something more on that no i don't see okay let me put one last question and in we have something like 10 minutes okay um what are the key factors favoring rri in your experience because we're discussing all the time barriers what is something that you saw in your experience okay but the key factors that could favor rri haro yeah so to continue on this this issue of uh that it should be something normal or something that is already in the uh strategy of the of the actors i think a factor that really helps uh rri is whether it's somehow on the agenda already and i have some experience with uh with nano technology for instance where researchers and and firms thought well this might be tricky and how will society respond είμαι σε μηθήν ξεπεριμένα είμαι στο σπίτι okay i'm from the speed okay okay sorry um so when it's already on the agenda of of firms and and research organizations to when they feel well yes there is something with society there and let's let's find for a way to deal with it and then rri may come as a rescue um but when when you first have to uh have to make have to convince that that additional efforts are needed then it's then it's difficult so it's important to see what is on the agenda already and if you can connect to that and that that is i think uh and a success factor thank you haro and sorry for the um someone else who helen marie wrote again a whole paper on the topic helen marie could you just uh you know what is your favorite from all of the things that you wrote um sorry about that no no no no thank you very much okay you i i i i also attended your talk in the beginning again it was really helpful thank you for whatever you are offering yeah no it's just if it's if it's useful it's in it's in the book um we just published so at least a chapter on drivers and the chapter on barriers so no it's it's uh well the most important ones are you know the dedicated programs infrastructures or units already dealing with this kind of issue so you're not starting from scratch and that clear mandates again some of the drivers are simply the opposite of the barriers so yeah and also the culture can be a driver academic culture can be a driver for r i i i agree okay but uh changing cultures creating cultures it's a difficult thing on its own and the way to go when you're to to be honest okay this is my feeling that when you want really to have institutional change you have to change the culture of this institution and as you mentioned in the in the morning you have to work with the people okay thank you for sharing all of this um anyone else that would like to add something here and probably be in favor of one of the points that Ellen Marie also mentioned yeah claudia i would like to hear more about this okay because as i said i i'm i strongly believe in whatever that you have to have a the right combination of top down and bottom up i think as an approach as a process of change first of all you cannot create a process of change without firstly first of all a driver of change initiator of changes there's a on which you have to rely and then able with a vision to involve both the many important top down it depends from organizational approach a territorial approach it depends from the context as we say but the top so institutional actors non institutional actors and also for instance looking also to research and innovation also also industry organization also to involve bottom up actors they usually are neglected in the process also of also consultation about the solution because i think that the stake as i said claudia we lost you before i think that you have me sorry yeah we can hear you now yeah not sorry there are a lot of stake to face because there are a lot of changes in society in science and innovation process so to also this mission approach change the life of everyone all the organization are under pressure with new changes to face and this requires so all i think that most of the the organization that the actors are uh experiences these difficulties to have these fast changes to to move to look at look at what happened with cove you know how is possible to manage what is coming so fast so i think that we have to to find a way what is the driver the initiator of the process but then is important to have a systemic approach for looking at the top down and bottom up uh area of actors and making a process an iterative process again the time is an issue a process in which include this but not in a also in this case not for promoting a label but try to see together in which way this stake can be in some way uh face it working together to solution that can be beneficial but for the progressive progression excellence of science for more responsible innovation sustainable innovation that also for society it is the goal of all this effort i think it's also the vision that is behind also for instance in the case of innovation the internal coalition i think the very important effort is how to build together a vision a common vision that is broader than the institutional vision because should be something that is in the middle on which territorial coalition can work together also in a longer vision and processes so for me i think the top down the bottom up it should be both present for a process of change thank you very much i we could have one last okay that's also very interesting petro you will be the last one that will take the floor before we close the session okay so good morning um the the the thing that that i wrote i think it features as something that keeps building a little bit on the the mentality that universities and institutes have um in the sense that uh i think by making uh different fields uh integrating with uh within others it's a way if you do it in the beginning with students uh like for example if you try to mix the hard science with social science in the very beginning by just trying to um uh be involved in projects or somehow be involved in the different courses that aim for that or hearts uh or even hearts courses if you do that in the beforehand then when you have these people following to universities a little bit later on or institutes they might be more wide open to uh gather the the you know to make the bottom up reach the the top uh uh easier so i would say that this this could be a strategy i know that some courses are implemented in universities with that uh idea but i would say that this is the maybe one of the drivers that could build this idea and maybe our eye would stop being just a mirrored concept and being just uh an implementation of of actions that we don't call it by that name but we have within different uh few uh axes that we talked today like ethics or even science education and public engagement and so on yeah that's thank you very much Pedro okay this is this 144 in Greece okay 1244 in central european time and we have to stop this very interesting discussion i hope that you enjoyed and the whole strand today that we had very nice presentations and i hope that you enjoyed also this session that you had the the chance to be more interactive and you to take the floor and offer your views and experiences thank you very much for all of the things that you taught me today okay in this one hour it was really useful uh we had the third strand of fitter for rri tomorrow so try to join also tomorrow for the final conference on rri policy in the future of rri thank you very much everyone and have a nice day for me thank you george thank you