 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones. And instead of the wonderful Bob Cook, I've got my bestie, Julie Lewis, who we're going to talk about the growth of equine therapy because that's something that we both do. I'm the people person and Julie's the horsey person. So, John, I just introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do. Yeah, I'm Julie Lewis. I'm a BHS AI, so I'm an instructor. That's how it all starts, I suppose. So, I not only teach riding and teach people how to look after the horses and look after horses and train horses and do all that kind of thing. I also work with equine guided therapy, which is horse therapy, not for the horses, for humans via the horses. So, Jackie and I both work together doing a map. There you go. Absolutely. And it's relatively new in this country, isn't it? I think it's been going in America for a lot longer. And you went on a holiday in America. I'd asked you about this years ago and you were like, no, nobody's going to want that. And then you went on holiday to America and came back and you were like, actually, maybe. Yeah, I went on a holiday and a ranching holiday, which was nothing to do with equine therapy or anything else, but it happened to be a retreat which dealt with all kinds of people with all kinds of issues, problems, worries, concerns. And on that retreat, they did a lot of equine guided therapy stuff. And so I spent a week or 10 days there with the lady that was running that and sort of getting very deep into what goes on and seeing some of the results and talking to her kind of made me think, go on then. I will, Jackie, you've been nagging me for ages, so let's bring this to the UK. There are a few people out there already doing it, but it's relatively unheard of, I think it's getting better. Kate Moss or one of them, one of the models has got into it as well and supporting. So it is getting bigger and bigger. Tell them a card, evidently, as well. She started doing it. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of big names doing it, not that it needs a name. No, need it, need it. And a lot of people don't know they need it until they've done it. And it's, it's, I, my background in horses is very different, obviously. And as you said, Jack, I wasn't really, really ready to take this at all. I was a bit more like, and I still, I still don't do psychotherapists. I'm not a psychotherapist. I don't know how it works with a psyche. What I do know is the magnetic field that horses have and the impact that horses have that we've seen with our clients is, is astounding. That's the thing we've seen it, literally. Every single time it astounds me. And I, I don't know what else to say other than I cannot believe how it works. I'm, I still, am I allowed to swear? Am I using my little phrase or not? Yes, you can use your little phrase. I'm sure people will understand. It's all a bit beyond me. I always say it's all a bit of witchfuckery. Because it is, I mean, I love horses. I deal with horses. I know how horses work. I know how their minds work. But seeing how they work in this great sort of orb of, of magnetism, whatever it is that connects human and horses just opens up. I think this is the thing why I love us working together, apart from I love working with you. We've known each other for over 30 odd years now, you know, my kids are like your kids and your kids are like my kids. So we've got history together. But you are so knowledgeable about the horses. You can read their behaviour. Like I've never known anybody be able to do a twitch of an ear or, you know, just anything. You're like, well, now they've done, you know, they've done that. This is what that means. And to me, it's phenomenal. And when you're doing it, you'll say to the person, they've got the hands on, you know what I mean? And they've kind of linked to the breathing and all this sort of stuff. And then you'll just say, you know, what's your intent? What are you thinking? You know, kind of put it out there, what it is that you want from this. And the horse will basically react to the thinking. It's amazing. It is. And I've just learned that as we've been doing it. It's just, like you said, I know what I'm looking for in a horse to be comfortable and a horse's reaction. Because all they're doing is the horses are behaving as they would almost in their head. To the humans that are working with them. And like you said, then most of the people that we've held sessions with have done hands on, but this can be done hands off. It can be done sitting in a field with them. It can be done standing in the stable with them. And everybody starts a little bit skeptical, I think, and everybody starts who's not horsey. You don't have to be horsey because you don't have to be able to handle horses. And people say, like some of the people do remember on the first few ones that we did, well, I can't ride and I don't know how to, you don't have to do that because it's all hands off. You can do it outside of the stable, inside of the stable, outside of the arena, inside, because the horse's freedom to choose and do and respond. I think that's the thing. They're not, they're not tied up, they're not restricted at all. Yeah. No, their response is key to what the clients are doing with them and what the clients are putting out there and what they're receiving. And it, I suppose for me, the amount of people we've seen brought to tears, who are happy, lovely people, and then they're brought to tears and they come out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's different, you know, what we do is equine guided therapy and literally that's, we're guided by the response and the reaction from the horses to the person that we're working with. And it can often be kind of mixed up with equine assisted therapy, which is more like on the horse for people, you know, to mean with disabilities or things like that. The majority of the stuff that we do is on the ground. There's no tacking up. Yeah. There's no intent of mounting ever. There's no intent. That's a separate, completely separate thing. If somebody wanted to get into riding, if they're not local, I, you know, I can direct them to somebody who could do that. If they're local, then yes, certainly I can do that with them. But our sessions are mental. It's up here. It's with our, you know, your physiological responses. Yeah. It's a thing to do with riding and being a horsewoman person. Yeah. And it's that connecting up with, and like you mentioned it really early on in this about the magnetic field, the horses are big animals, the majestic, do you know what I mean? The, the, the scary, if you don't know enough about them, but somehow they just mirror back whatever it is that we're putting there, they'll mirror it back to us, whether that's in the movements, their behaviour, the feeling, whatever it is. Do, I, I'm just amazed by it every single time that we do this. We, we've had a number of clients who, when they've been going through sessions, you get a feel for people who aren't really opening up and they don't want to open up and there's a few spring to mind who've kind of gone, I'm not into therapy. I've come along with my friend or I've come along with my mum or my mate or whatever and kind of think, okay, that's fine. Yeah, absolutely. And then at the end of it, they're asking us questions. They want to know why. They can very often, when you do your psyche bit afterwards, they'll go, wow, I wasn't expecting that. Now I know why I did that. Now I know what I need to do about that. Like I say, the emotional rush that a lot of them get from it always astounds me. Yeah. Because that I think is what people aren't expecting, the amount of people who genuinely are tearful and genuinely get at least or find, you know, they can go somewhere with it. Another young lady springs to mind that was having a lot of internal problems with a stomach area and things like that. And we didn't, she did not open that up at all to us. But after the session, I asked her about, she said to me, what about this? Why is that? I said, well, for me, X, Y and Z was happening. And she just looked and she said, yeah, should I'm having all sorts of problems there? And that's, well, we didn't know that, we didn't know it beforehand, the horse knew. And that's where they were going every time to her. And that's it. I can distinctly remember one where you were saying, you know, set your intent and look at, you know, what it is that you want out of this session. And literally instantaneously, the horse kind of whipped round and just looked and it was as if it was listening to what she was thinking. Exactly. Yeah, it was. What are you saying? You know, you're saying to them, it's okay, you know, the horse won't take on board any more than what it can deal with or whatever. And they'll literally, they'll drop the head and the still, and then they'll just shake as if they've took it on board and they just, you know, shaking it off and getting rid of it. And it's just like, yeah, it's magic. And you know, yeah, exactly. And the way that we do it is, you know, we sort of ground the people when they first come, we take them for a walk out in nature just so that they can get in the zone and everything. And then, you know, we let them know what's going to happen and how it's going to work. We do, you know, probably about an hour, an hour and a bit maybe, you know, working with the horse. And then there's the feedback afterwards where I do a bit more of my stuff. So we make sure that everybody's backgrounded and they've come back down to worth not necessarily with the bang, but the back in the here and now. And then they go off. And, you know, the messages that we get back after this lasts for weeks, you know, to me, it's not a one hit wonder. It fills up the the bucket for quite a while. Yeah, remember again, one particular lady who kind of was a workaholic, high powered job. All the rest of it and came back to me a few days later and said, I can't believe she said how well I've slept since then. She said the things I've done and got ticked off my list, but easily ticked off my list, not stressful. I've managed to get through more work without the hassle of what she was classing as stress. And she didn't go into great detail, but she did tell me a few things that she was doing that she wasn't expecting to have done and did it. And she said, I just felt like somebody had recharged me. She said, I just felt like I'd been plugged in and I could go on a straight road and get everything done that I needed to do almost thoughtlessly without having to make a massive effort to do it. She said, I slept like I've never slept. And yeah, and that's that's empowering. And it's like, say I'm not anything psyche. I don't do any of that. I was yeah. And her response in with the horse as well, she was one of the ladies that was brought to tears. And didn't know why and looked at me and said, why am I crying? I think it was a shock to her as much as it was to us. I don't really know. That's not my field, but keep doing whatever you're doing because he's not bothered. Absolutely. And they do, they take it on board. It's amazing. And, you know, you've got your own yard, you've got horses, you know, to me and on the yard or whatever. And you kind of handpicked the ones that you wanted to work with originally. And the ones that you thought would be really good turned out to not be that good. And the ones that you thought wouldn't be that good in this sort of a situation went above and beyond and were absolutely amazing. Yeah, there's just no, you know, and we go usually in the stable. Sometimes we take people in individually, but sometimes there's two people in there. And the horses go to whoever they want to. They're not forced into doing anything. Some get all the attention, and others get none. You know, and they literally turn the body away from them. And they'll go with the pieces and they react like that as well. You know, if there's a need, they'll go and take it. It's almost like, come on, carry the hug of things to mind. He's on one of our pictures. That's it. I don't know if you can see over there, if you're watching this on YouTube or whatever. There's a poster there, and he literally hooks people in and hugs them. It's phenomenal, you know, the way that they respond and react. But yeah, it's all, it's all, it's just, it's on a massive growth in this country now, because I think it's starting to really get, get a burn and get a run. And it's just really allowing people to connect with something outside of a human and properly connect. Everybody's used to doing it with dogs and things like that, but it's a different level. It's quite, quite different with a horse. And I think like I said, the magnificent, the big, the beasts, they're scary. But a lot of people that can be really empowering to be up and close to something that big and then to be welcomed in as well. Exactly. You know, we've worked out in the open, sort of in the paddock or whatever, and they've been, again, often they're not held or anything, but once they've kind of connected, if you will, they'll follow you. And, you know, you've got people to walk and the horse would follow them and then stop and the horse would stop and then set off again. And it's just, you know, to, to feel that connected with something that kind of listens to you. You can't force them to do any of this stuff. It's all their free will. It's, it's amazing. And the people, go on. I was going to say, I always think horses, when they look at you, there's always a connection straight to the identity, straight in your eye, and it goes all the way down and in. You see through to your soul. Yeah, literally. You can feel that there straight away. Yeah. And, you know, horses have been part of our lives as human beings for hundreds of years. You know, that connection has always been there. There is something magical about it. And I think they're only just starting to look at scientifically, you know, how this works, that connection with people and using it, particularly in this country is starting to be more up and coming now. But all therapists in this country, they're all starting to become more accepted. It was a thing not to be, you know, it was an Americanism, wasn't it? You know, everybody's in therapy. Well, therapy doesn't have to be like we've said before, behind a desk, sitting on a couch, talking to a doctor. You know, my therapy is out with my horses every day. I'd be a raving nutter. I'm sure other people's therapy might be a bottle. Somebody else's therapy might be an injection. It might be drugs. It could be whatever. But therapy is a whole ballgame. Do you know what I mean? And therapy in this country has started to be accepted much more widely as not so much as a need, but as a right almost, as a should be, you should be doing this. It's self care. Yeah. And I was reading something online earlier on. And I think, you know, like insurance companies are starting to take on board now. Aquine guided therapy is a form of therapy, which I think is brilliant. You know, when horses don't judge, they don't care what you did yesterday or an hour before. They're very much in the moment and pick up on your energy in that moment. You know, so it works for people that are stressed and overwhelmed, they're anxious. You know, we've thought about trying to get into working with ex-military and, you know, veterans with PTSD, you know, kids with autism across the field. I don't think there's anybody really that can't work. Yeah, absolutely. You know, family therapy, you know, working, we've even thought about doing, you know, team building for businesses or whatever, using the horses. It's literally the world is their oyster. Or their stable. Absolutely, absolutely. And I just wanted to mention before we kind of finish on this, that, you know, in November, we are going to be doing a session at Bob's conference that he's doing in sale, all about equine guided therapy. We've got two hours where we're going to be talking about this. Two hours to bore everybody waitlist. Which is interesting because it's something that neither one of us have done. So if you want to come along and do that, then buy a ticket of Bob. I'm sure he'll be advertising it on the website or whatever. But yeah, we will be there talking about the things that we've been sharing some information on today. Yeah, we will. So yeah, you can contact Julie through equine guided therapy dot com if you wanted to know anything more about this. But yeah, just just check it out. Check out equine guided therapy and see what you think. So thank you so much for coming on this Julie and being a guest. Yeah. All right, speak to you all soon. Take care. 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