 Welcome to the Bogleheads chapter series. This episode was hosted by the pre and early retirement LifeStage chapter and is an audio only recording from July 12th, 2023. The topic was what to do in retirement. Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's philosophy for attaining financial independence. This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as personalized investment advice. My topic actually is a little bit different because I'm actually, I've been retired for five and a half years. I'm 68, my wife, Ellen is 67 and she still works part-time out of the house. And that presents a little bit of a challenge for us is how to peacefully coexist under one roof. I'm not going to focus so much on what we think we were going to do during retirement but how it's gone for us as a couple when one is still working. But I'll touch upon some of the issues and topics. Most Bogleheads, we tend to focus more on the financial aspects of retirement. For my wife and I, however, it's been the non-financial aspects that have been the most challenging. So I want to share this graphic that kind of illustrates one of the issues. You may have heard this term before and since this is an audio only recording, what it states is a book cover that says for better or for worse, but not for lunch. Making marriage work in retirement. And that kind of sums up some of the issues we've been dealing with along with many others. Overall, we've both had a lot of my retirement pretty well, I think, but in retrospect, we should have spent more time discussing the non-financial retirement expectations and what our new normal was going to be. And the next graphic summarizes some of those issues and then I'll briefly discuss how we ultimately address them. Let me share a screen again. Unfortunately, those of you that are going to be listening to this afterwards can't see this marriage-ven diagram. But it basically talks about what our typical life is like as a married couple, pre-retirement with an overlap between work, interests, hobbies, children, marriage and core values, and your social life. And of course, once you will retire, one or both of you, that completely resets your life routine, even if you're single. And some of the issues that we've had to face during this early retirement phase includes how to adapt our daily routine and meals, how to share space together under one roof, how much solo versus together time we'll have, how to expand our social interactions, how to approach travel as a retired couple or a semi-retired couple, and the potential issues for caregiving needs. And I'll just briefly go through some of these issues and how we address them. We've had to significantly adapt our expectations over time with regards to our daily routine. We currently, on weekdays, we actually have our own time for breakfast and lunch. Our schedules differ because I didn't know that when I was at work during the day previously that my wife had her own schedule for breakfast and lunch. I had mine at work and they never did really mesh very well. So we kind of continue with our own schedules during the day. And then we spend our dinner and evenings together, which replicates our pre-retirement routine. We also nowadays review our upcoming daily agenda, either the evening before or the morning of, and highlight what together time we'll have during the day. And that really helps us structure our day and plan accordingly. One thing that I've found helpful is we add each other's out-of-house commitments to our personal calendars, so we know when each of us will have full run of the house for a period of time. I'm an audiophile nut and that's the time that I really get to crank up my stereo when I know my wife will be away for a few hours. As far as sharing space, that can be difficult when one spouse or partner is working from home even before retirement. And it's very important regardless that we each have our own me space that might consist of a separate office, bedroom, basement, or some other venue in the home to get away. It turns out, I didn't even know this, but even though my wife has a home office, most of the time she works out of our family room with HGTV running quietly in the background, I kept coming in and interrupting her all the time. So we saw that by having her let me know she's in work mode because she'll wear a special scarf or a hat or write down a note to me that she's working and to stay out of her hair. And if I'm home during those times, I then move to my small office or our outdoor lanai to give her space and to have some quiet time for myself. One of the big investments we made during COVID and during retirement was to really improve our outdoor space under the lanai. We added an additional permanent awning sofa that's very comfortable to nap in, table, the chairs, and even outdoor speakers so I can have music out there. So I get to spend a lot of time out there during the day. The other thing we do is we batch topics that we wanna discuss with one another and discuss them later so we avoid interrupting each other during the day. I keep a running list on my phone. Sometimes I'll text her with issues to discuss later. As far as social interactions, we still maintain our individual social circles and activities, but we've committed to doing at least 50% of the new ones together. Our latest joint venture has been hosting dinner parties for our neighbors that we previously never got to know very well. I won't cover the topic of finding purpose in retirement. I'll leave that for others. But one of the things for me that worked well was heading up our local Boglehead chapter and getting involved with the Boglehead's life stages. That's been a fulfilling endeavor. As far as travel goes, that's another big issue that those in retirement need to address. Interestingly, during COVID, my wife shifted her business from in-person type presentations as she's a business consultant to more virtual work. And that's expanded since then and allowed us greater flexibility for travel. We kind of work around that and she can even work remotely when we're on vacation. We also compromised on how much time to spend visiting our out-of-town children and grandchildren. My wife, we have two grandchildren in D.C. My wife would prefer to go there once a month if she could. I don't wanna go up that often. So I typically go every other time and that also gives me a little bit of me time when she's away. As far as caregiving goes and other consideration, we hadn't given much thought to is that if you've got elderly parents or a partner or you have to assist with children or grandchildren, you really need to factor that in and how it's gonna impact your retirement and travel plans. One thing that we personally ran into is that my 91-year-old mother who lives about an hour away from me lives on her own. She still drives during the day. And one of my sisters who lives 15 minutes from her would regularly swing by to help her out and go with her to doctor's appointments. Unfortunately, my sister recently got divorced and then she started socializing and traveling extensively. So my wife and I had to pick up the slack and that impacted some of our travel plans. So we basically have adapted as best we can to that. And a key takeaway I think if you are gonna be a caregiver for anybody, if you have siblings or children involved, is to discuss the roles and expectations with them in advance and also have a backup plan. One little tip that I came up with is that my two siblings, my two sisters, including one in Roswell, Georgia, we have a shared Google calendar and we always put our vacation and travel plans even if tentative on the shared family calendar. So we make sure we're not all out of town or out of the country at the same time. And that's been helpful. But overall, my wife and I have had a lot of twists and turns since I retired, but the key to our success thus far is staying flexible, adapting and maintaining a sense of humor. So I'll leave it at that. That's just one perspective of other non-financial issues that need to be considered when planning retirement. So this is the results of the people that did the RSVP. This is first question is, are you retired about half the people that answered the RSVP, not necessarily who's on the call, but are retired. The difficulties planning to retire are while retired. Things like watching TV, hard to give up working because I'm single widow, worried about the need for money, unexpected issue to daily routine. DW still works part time, prioritizing non-scheduled activities, money, hobbies, financially set up, getting close and anxious, not in control of time, slowing down, hesitant to access investments. There's a lot of common themes here. Enter de-accumulation time. We were talking about that a little earlier, I asked that withdrawal plan. Maybe that's a topic for a future meeting and how people broke through. In fact, Lady Geek just told us earlier, you wanna make a quick remark about spending your retirement on money? Okay, a quick remark. It was actually when I first retired, I can go into details how and why, what, how that happened. But the idea was, as I was reading it, everybody in the forum says you have this 4% withdrawal rate. You have the variable percentage withdrawal spreadsheet, which I looked at. You have all these methods of making all these withdrawals, but the bottom line is, when you retire, I still have a monthly budget. I still buy groceries. I still do this. I still have, my expenses really haven't changed. My lifestyle changed because I became a widow, but that's at the same time, but that's different. So, and then when you get retired, you start talking to all these old people and everybody's dying or has medical problems. So, what I did is I look at my budget and I said, why am I saving it for? I'm financially okay with where I'm at. And if I don't spend it, I'll have excess. So, I mean, after being very conservative over things, including long-term care planning and all that kind of stuff, I still have money that I can be discretionary about. So I just dumped a ton of money to make me very happy. I redid my high-def home theater. I have like a 77-inch display. I got an Xbox on a long-time game or if somebody tuned in early before the meeting, you heard me and Hoosier-Jim talking about the original venture game. So, I am taking time to enjoy myself. My Xbox is here, or I have a pickable hobby too. I have hobbies, but I just spent a ton of money and it's just like going on a cruise. You do that. Something I've always wanted to get back in the game. So I just did it. I spent it and I'm happy. So that's one less thing to retire about. So I'll worry about. So something to do and following your passion, you can do that in retirement too. If all your passion is, you don't need to be working to do that. So I'll stop there. All right, thank you. And that could be a topic of a future meeting. Not being able to relax, fall into a mental state of enjoyment due to hearing about family members' health. Health is very important, obviously. I may not have enough money in taxable accounts. And this is when they plan to retire. Some of the hobbies and activities people have found meaningful. Woodworking, pickleball, grandchildren, coordinator, like Allen had said. Volunteering, children and grandchildren, travel, church, strategy games, flute, travel, hanging with friends, volunteering. So I'll publish this to Lady Geek. So she'll put that with the audio, the results of this survey. And this is what people asked about for future meetings. So we have topics like estate planning, healthcare, finance, Medicare. We were just talking about Medicare a few minutes ago. Maybe we should do a Medicare and then follow it up with the healthcare. It seems like it's popular. If I could find somebody, I don't know anybody that does estate planning, but if somebody has a suggestion of somebody who would be willing to talk about it, I'd be glad to listen to that. So now I'm gonna jump back to people who would like to speak. And what I wanna do is use these talking points if you could. So if you could stick to these topics, sentences about your work engagement, like what kind of personality type, were you a work to live or a live to work person? Have you changed that since you retired? How did you adjust to unstructured, your unstructured life and what activities do you find rewarding, fulfilling and give you purpose? So I think Keith had volunteered to speak. Keith, would you like to talk about these issues? Yeah, sure. Good evening everybody. You know, kind of along the lines of what Jim has up on the screen. I kind of made a list of things that stood out in my mind of things that I needed to make adjustments to when I retired. I've been retired for just over four years. I retired at 57, a little bit earlier than I thought. And that's where I'll start, which is on the financial aspect of it. So it was a situation where my company offered a package and I was approved and three weeks later I was retired. So I went very quickly from an accumulator to a spender. And it took me a little while to maybe, I guess the best word is to say to implement the plans that I had been thinking about. So for those of you that are near retirement, I would just say you never know when all of a sudden you're gonna wake up one day and that's your first day of retirement and maybe start thinking about it a little bit because I hadn't really thought about income and how I was gonna generate it until I was approved to take the package and retire and then I just had a very short time. Things like what am I gonna do with my 401K? I happened to have a 401K, I could leave it, I could cash it in for an annuity. I could, and that was actually through the 401K plan that my company had, roll it over, just leave it invested in the things that it was. So that's something that if you're getting close to retirement think about what you're gonna do if you have a 401K. Couple of the things that maybe stood out for me that were adjustments to talk about and of making adjustment to full-time retirement. I kind of considered myself a goal oriented or a competitive person. So with the jobs that I had, I always had a goal, something that I needed to accomplish that was measurable. I would know when I was done, I would know when I was successful or not. Then all of a sudden I'm retired and you don't have that same stimulation, you don't have that same challenge. And it took a little while to get used to that. It took a little while to not be going when am I done, when am I finished, how did I do, what was my score, was it successful or not? That takes a little bit of getting used to. Probably it took me maybe the first year to do that. I was also a, I would call myself a self-proclaimed planner where I always knew what I was gonna do, not only the next day, but for the week. I had my Franklin planner and I was writing everything down of what I was gonna do. And I could look at my week and know what I needed to get done. And then all of a sudden maybe after again, about a year, that started to fall away and I would wake up in the morning and go, I'm not even sure what I'm gonna do today or if I'm gonna do anything today. Again, that's kind of an adjustment. It was definitely an adjustment for me. In terms of planning for retirement, in terms of friends and companionship and staying in touch, I had a number of friends at my company because you spend so much time there. But I noticed that that kind of goes away. It kinda melts away after a while once you're retired because you start to lose the things that you have in common. When they're still working and they have all the daily things that are going on and you're not, even if you get together for lunch or a phone call, they're starting to talk about things that you don't know about and you didn't participate in and vice versa. And what I found was kind of interesting for me is I got the urge to contact and try and reconnect with some old friends from high school, college, that type of thing. And then also some maybe extended family cousins and things that maybe I was close in age, but as life got in the way, we lost touch. And for some of those folks that I contacted, we have reconnected, we've gotten together, we've had lunches or dinners or we have some things planned. Others, I didn't get a positive reception. Maybe they've moved on. And I initially kind of thought, okay, why aren't you interested in reconnecting with me? But their life is in a different place and they're in a different place. So I've accepted that not everybody's gonna want to reconnect with me as I might with them. But I have kind of rekindled some friendships that I had which are really kind of neat. I noticed my perspective on things has changed in terms of how I look at life and how I approach it, stepping away from kind of the rat race. An example is in travel. You know, when I was working, our vacations used to be family vacations and I would figure out how are we gonna pack as much as we can into the week that I have off before I have to be back at work. And then how many times am I gonna check email or voicemail while I'm gone? Now I go on vacation and I'm like, well, I'm gonna go here and I'm gonna stay there until I don't feel like going there anymore and then I'm gonna go somewhere else. My wife and I will travel and it's just like we're gonna go see the things that we wanna see and when we're done, we'll just move on. It was just much more relaxed. It was much more enjoyable. It wasn't rushed. And maybe some of that had to do with, our kids are now adults and they're not going on vacations with us like they were and it's just the two of us. But it was just a more enjoyable way to travel. And then I talked about this on one of the prior Boglehead meetings, relocating in retirement. You know, I had moved several times for my job. So they were relocations that were kind of required. You had a specific place you had to go to, you'd settle in, you'd be there for a few years and then you might be moving on somewhere else. Relocating in retirement is different because your needs are different. You're suddenly thinking about healthcare where maybe you weren't before. You're thinking about where family is in relation to you when maybe you weren't thinking that before. And you also think about your home. Do you want steps or not? Do you need grab bars in the shower? Various things that you didn't think about. I didn't think about when I was retiring. And so it becomes kind of a different process. And for us, it also became a process where we purged a lot of the things that we had, all the little baseballs and basketballs and soccer balls that our kids used that we no longer needed. And it really gave us a chance to kind of clean the slate and get rid of a lot of stuff and start over, which were actually in the process of doing right now. I did read an article a little while back that said that approximately 50% of people that move, relocate in retirement end up moving within the first couple of years. Either it's not what they expected, their needs changed, maybe they got what they call island fever and they thought they would love it in a particular location and after they lived there for a couple of years, they realized that they didn't. And so all of a sudden they moved somewhere else. My sister-in-law is a perfect example of that, moved from one area, moved to one area in Florida, realized within the first year, this was not the right place. Year and a half later, they moved to a different area of Florida, much different with different hobbies in the area and things like that. So I guess I would sum it up to say that retirement was definitely an adjustment and it was not what I expected. I went in kind of blind, not knowing what to expect only from information I had gotten from my parents and my brother, what retirement was like. And there was a lot of adjustment and having been retired for four years, what I have now in retirement is certainly not what I pictured when I first retired. And I would echo what I think Alan said, which is for those of you that are not retired yet, spend a little more time thinking about the non-financial side of it before you're retired. So when you take that first step in retirement, you're prepared because it's not something you can instantly turn on once you're retired. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Keith. You know, the one thing that you said that really resonated with me is the, you said you weren't in a rush like on vacation. And I just, I would say the thing I've noticed is just not in a rush on anything, even like home projects. I feel like I can take my time and find the right tools and, you know, go to the store twice if I have to without being mad at myself where I used to be in such a hurry. Right. And if you're a type A personality, it takes a little getting used to and just really quickly, I apologize for telling a really quick story. So a friend of mine retired after 30-something years as an engineer. And he wasn't ready. And the first three or four months he told me he would go to Home Depot and just walk around the aisles because he just couldn't be at home. His wife hadn't retired yet and he was going stir crazy. And so he would just walk around the Home Depot in the area, didn't buy anything just to kind of be around people and be around stuff. And it took him three or so months to be comfortable just being at home and not having anything to do. So it is an adjustment. And tell us about the decision when they, you said they offered a package or something. Was that a nerve-wracking decision for you or was it a no-brainer easy way to go? Well, I had been thinking about a retirement was waiting for our daughter to graduate high school. And I wasn't sure if they were gonna offer anything there had been rumors. And then they made it contingent on that each person needed to be approved individually based on business need, based on years of service salary, et cetera. So it dragged on for about six months where I was waiting to hear whether I was approved or not. They came to me the second week of January and said, I got great news for you, you're approved. And I was retired on January 31st. And most of that time was spent filling out paperwork and various things like that. So it happened relatively quickly. There's a lot of people that say, I'm gonna retire at 62 and maybe they're 57. So they know they have five more years of planning. Mine was like, I'm gonna retire somewhere between say 57 and 60, more like 60. And then all of a sudden the opportunity comes up and I'm retired in three weeks. And it was very quick. And there were some steps that I hadn't put in place financially and some other things that I wish I'd had a little bit more time to do. So I did probably lose a few dollars and I had few sleepless nights at the very beginning trying to put my plans in place. And then also learning a little bit more about how to generate income and retirement and things like that that maybe I hadn't put as much thought into as I had wanted. So for somebody that's maybe laid off or somebody else that has a package that all of a sudden comes up, to me when you get into your mid to late fifties you should at least be sketching out a plan just in case, because you never know when the economy is gonna take a hit and people are gonna get laid off and you suddenly realize now's the time to retire. You just, not everybody is able to plan it down to the day that they're gonna retire. And so you wanna be ready a little bit in advance. Does anyone, does anyone have a question for Keith? If you do, could you just hit that raise hand button on Zoom or Merriam, do you have a question? I just wanted to say that Mike Piper has a nice quote. Mike Piper says, sometimes retirement is something that happens to you, not that you plan for. Yes. Any questions, anyone? Okay, we'll move on then. Thank you, Keith. Lady Keek, would you like to give us a little background from your experience? Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, we, someone has a question in the chat. So what do you mean by generate income in retirement? Oh, Keith, you wanna answer that? So for me, I had a 401k and I had gone and I was an accumulator for the entire time. So everything was about growth and reinvesting dividends, et cetera. And then I had a brokerage account in addition. And that was also invested for growth. So all of a sudden that needed to change, that needed to be restructured. I needed to look at bonds. I needed to look at other types of investments that generated income and not just growth so that I'd have more dollars later on. And there's so many different ways to do it. I mean, a lot of them are very common on, Bogleheads talked about often bond ladders and various things like that. I looked at it from the perspective of I wanted to try and generate income and not necessarily spend down principal. And so I wanted to look at how I may be able to preserve my principal, but have it generate income, either through dividends or interest, that type of thing. And I really hadn't given it much thought when I was working, because I was working eight to five every day and I had activities with the kids. And then all of a sudden I was looking at, I thankfully at my company had a pension. So I do get a pension check every month, but I needed to generate some retirement investment income. But I didn't really know much about it. And it took me quite a while to get to a point where I was comfortable understanding that and putting my money into those buckets to do. I'm bridged by Miriam, because she says sometimes retirement is forced upon you. And I was kind of in that position, not from the company perspective, but from my situation. This was in 2020, January. Basically, long story short, I was at the point where I could support myself in retirement. And I just said, well, what do you, I mean, the guiding principle is you don't retire from something, you have to retire to something. And that's when you'll be happy. And I could not for life make figure out what I would be retiring to, but everyone was giving me support. They said you should do it. But in the meantime, they say I'm a widow now, but my husband ended, he passed away in January of 2020. And I said, no, I didn't want to be at work. He passes away. And then it was just before COVID. I mean, COVID was starting to hit. So I said, you know what? Just to try retirement, I mean, I'm going through the, no, the becoming aware of more, no, the grief and all that kind of stuff. I just didn't want to be at work anymore. So let me try 30 days leave without pay. That way I could change my mind and what people told me is that when I go into retirement, you treat it like a summer vacation. The only difference is after three months, you don't want to go back. So, okay, so let me take 30 days leave without pay. Three weeks into the four week plan leave, I was notified that my benefits were terminated. In fact, they were terminated the first day I went on leave without pay. I said, excuse me, HR never told me, nobody ever said anything. And it is perfectly legal that if they're not paying you, they're not also not paying for your benefits. So they terminate all my insurance policies. Fortunately for Cobra, Cobra was the only one that, we have two raised hands. Cobra kept my medical. So I looked at that. I said, well, we can put you back on. We can't guarantee you can get back on your benefits. Okay, I said, bye. And that's when I retired, became a widow and Cobra did all at the same time. So, and I just took it day by day. And for me, COVID was kind of helpful because I didn't want to go out and see anybody and you couldn't. So it was sort of helpful from that. It's a long way to twist that perspective, but it kind of helped me around because I couldn't go out and I didn't want to go out. But after a year, getting used to retirement says, okay, my expense, I have my expensive. And now all my planning for two people now went to one people. So that threw my finances off in a good direction, but I'd rather have it the other way around. And so, I mean, that's, but I started to do things and actually say volunteering your time. I was spending all my time on the forum. And then I got asked by the Bogle Center to help them with their website. So there, my time went to that. After a while, I joined Meetup. I found Pickleball. I found a hiking group and I just was started doing it day by day. So that's what I've been doing for the last three years. I'm just getting out on my own, but I'd say it's from a non-financial perspective. I'm starting to enjoy and see things and do things that I want to, not what other people expect of me. So I'm just having fun and learning very much to follow your passion. If I don't feel comfortable doing something, I don't. If I, people ask about volunteering for this night, if I don't want to do this, I'll just tell them. So, but the social life does kick in a little. You have to change your social life. As Keith said, you lose your connection with the people at work. If you haven't seen them outside of the work environment before you stopped working, you're not going to see them after you stop working. So if you're really friends with people, you should already be going out with them outside of work. And if you don't do that, it's just not going to happen because you lose anything in common. When I asked around, after I left, it was like, Lady Kiku, like they tell you how much they work. They tell you how much your valuable contributor, when I changed positions inside the company, they had like, my first time I moved, they had five people replace me, then they had three people replace me. So that's how valuable I was. Now, at the time it got to the point where a month after I left, I found out like they even, they forgot who I was. So don't get, don't overestimate. If you think you're valuable, and this was a very, very large company, if it's a small company might be different, but if you think, if you feel loyalty, if you're hanging around because you feel loyalty and who else is going to do my job, drop it. They will get along fine without you. Give them an extra week notice than if you feel that guilty about it. But believe me, they will get by without you and they'll either hire someone or train someone. So, okay, that's, I think that's about everything. Okay. I think that's enough. Okay, thank you. Dan, let me ask you this question. Do you miss work? Only because I'm an engineer and the topic of interest is my specialty. So when I see it in the news of what the company was doing, it's actually pretty popular by the way. And I do, okay, it's how you work with rocket science. So I do know the technical underlines. It's really cool, but the paperwork and being as an engineer, I miss that, but that's what hobbies are for. If I wanna do an engineering things, I can just redirect my efforts to put it in a different direction, like play on computers. Actually, I build my own computers. I might build another one, maybe with liquid cooling. Yes, I'm thinking about that, that'll be my next PC. So redirect from a business interest into a personal interest. If it's a passion you follow, just do it for yourself or volunteer and help others. So. All right, thank you. And Henry, you have your hand up. Yeah, hi guys. So I've been retired for a number of years. I was in a job that was pretty much 24 seven. And because of that, there wasn't really time to do the kind of personal lifestyle planning what would happen in retirement until I got there. So I've been retired for a while and I found the approach of just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks worked pretty well. You just try things if it appeals, great, you explore it further. If it turns out it really doesn't, well, no harm, no fall. And I also learned this could be useful for those who might have any angst about the momentousness of the decision of what are you gonna do with yourself. That I found that when you're willing to work for free, there's no end to the possibilities. There's an awful lot of places out there that can use warm bodies to help to volunteer with just about anything. And if you're in the fortunate position when you retire that you don't need to have an income from a job that it's quite liberating and it's a different mindset than virtually all of us have while we were still working. So that's a thought. Another thought is that it's really hard to predict your future self. What's gonna be happening in your life, your circumstances, your health, your family situation. If I would have predicted five or 10 years ago what life would be like today, I would have been totally off the mark. And not because I wouldn't have thought about it but just circumstances change and the order we get sometimes they change quicker than they would have when life is more stable over a longer period of time where there's a getting started stage and then there's a stage where you settle into a job in a career and your family and everything. And then a quarter century or more passes and then you're in a different stage and change happens more quickly. So those are a couple of thoughts. Happy to answer any questions from the perspective of having been in retirement now for 14 years. What are a couple of things that you threw against the wall and stuck and what are a couple of things that didn't stick that you thought they might have enjoyed? So the things that stuck, I wound up being a teacher in the Duke Osher Lifelong Learning Institute on current events, which I was a lawyer in my job. So it was not doing what I was doing but I found to my surprise that I liked leading a discussion, kind of a facilitator on current events discussions that has been offered there for many years. And I don't know compared to the challenges and stress of advocacy professionals but ultimately just helping guide folks so you could have a respectful conversation about the contentious topics of the day turned out to be a natural fit but I had no idea ahead of time. I thought I might have done more things. I tried with things in nature because I liked it but that didn't stick. Like Lady Geek, pickleball seems to have stuck, quite addictive, being fairly active in the Bogleheads and doing the personal finance for the family takes time and I just assumed use my time for that as opposed to paying a financial advisor to do it but another thing that didn't stick, so I had been a city attorney, so corporation counsel for a city. And I tried serving on a planning commission, land use decisions and it was totally in my wheelhouse but it was too close to what I did professionally and I learned pretty quickly. I did it for a few years but I learned pretty quickly that having set in endless public meetings over the years, I had no longer had the patience to do that. I will go to almost any lengths to avoid putting on a suit or a tie or even a dress shirt, kind of been there and done that. I would caution folks, it's great to try things but and I'm sure most of us have read about this, don't get in over your head where you try so many different things that it becomes burdensome. If you say yes to something, you'd be thoughtful about what kind of commitment of time and energy you're giving to it. If it's like on a trial basis, that's great but if it's where, all right, this is going to be a commitment for a sufficient period of time. Am I really good with that? And if I am, how many things like that do I want to commit to at once? Because there's a certain panic where all of a sudden you have all this discretion with how you spend your day and it's nice to leave some space in there for things to reveal themselves. That's a useful point that a lot of what I'm doing now is totally unpredictable to myself from the past but because I left some capacity for it when the serendipity of the opportunity just appeared. Well, that looks interesting, but let's give it a try. And again, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but it's nice to have the latitude to when something comes along, you do have the capacity. And so what is the most fulfilling thing about the lifelong learning courses you facilitate? So in the world we live in where folks have trouble treating those who have different views and I'm thinking particularly at the moment the issue between Democrats and Trumpers, it's very difficult to disagree without devaluing the people who are on the opposite side of that divide. And there's a certain skill set that to try to help folks in the conversation to get past that and realize the same person who has what you might think to be a totally idiotic non-fact based view of reality is the same person who might be the coach of the Little League team, might take the shirt off his back to help somebody in need. And that's something that an awful lot of us have a lot of trouble reconciling. And so to me, being able to help do that's a good feeling. Very good. Anybody have any questions for Henry? Just raise your hand. Okay, very good. Thank you, Henry. I think Cameron has their hand though. Cameron, were you lined up to speak or do you have a question? Go ahead, I think you're muted. There you go. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that my hand was up. Okay, all right. I think I can, okay, there you go. I just wanna say thank you, Henry. Yeah, thank you, Henry, for that. Any other speakers would like to talk about their transition into retirement and what they found rewarding, fulfilling and how they fill their time? I would have to say, I like what Henry said about the non-overcommitting and letting things just happen because I've noticed that with me, a lot of things that I would have never imagined getting involved with just when the opportunity comes and you try it, it's really rewarding. Jim, I'm gonna, if nobody else is gonna talk, I'm just gonna wanna mention a couple of very recent for those of you that have subscriptions to the Wall Street Journal, you might know this already, but from time to time, they'll do articles on things like retirement. And they've had a couple that are relevant to this meeting tonight on retirement. One from last, I think it's about a week and a half ago, it's titled, How to Retire Better from Retirees that Learned the Hard Way. And I'll just give you three headings within the article. One is investing for retirement means more than money and they interviewed a couple of retirees that needed to reinvent themselves when they retired. The second heading, relationships are the key to retirement. I think that's pretty self-explanatory in terms of what that is. And then the last one is retirement is longer than you think. And it interviewed some retirees that maybe if they'd worked a couple of extra years, they'd gotten more vested in a pension or something like that. And to really think those things through because you could easily be into your 90s and you could have a very long retirement and you wanna make sure that you're prepared for that. And then the other article actually was yesterday and I'm trying to pull it up right now. And the article yesterday was in retirement, we have discovered that each need a cave to call our own. This goes back to something that Alan mentioned in the beginning about separate spaces. They interviewed a series of couples that have staked out within their homes, their own spaces. The proverbial man cave and the she space or however you wanna call it where each of them can retire to during the day and do what they like to do. It can be anything from woodworking to working on cars. One of them loves to repair bicycles. And then on the other side, it can be reading, it can be gardening, it can be something like that. And all these couples talked about how important it was to have their own space so that they weren't on top of each other all day every day. And they might go there for two or three or four or five hours and do their thing, kind of get re-energized, then they come back and be a couple again. And it was quite an interesting article that talked, I say really touched on what Alan touched on in his presentation. Well, and there is another question from Flannel in the chat about, did anyone enter retirement with anxiety about all the empty hours and how they needed to be filled? Would anybody like to speak to that? If so, just click the raise hand and we'll have you speak. How about you, Mariam? Did you have any trouble figuring out what to do? No, not at all because I needed, I had a big house that needed decluttering. I have a family with kids that needed, you know, I wanted to be around them, be around the big, we have a huge family here. And so I never had the problem filling my day. However, my husband did. He was one of those people who was very much part of his work and his work was him. It was his life. And when he retired, and by the way, he had no choice, he had to retire. He was in an occupation where he aged out. You had to retire. He then sat the first day of retirement, I saw him at his computer and it wasn't on. And he was just sitting there looking like a man without a country. A man without meaning and purpose in life. And he did go back to work. He went back to work part-time in a similar profession. And he's as happy as can be. If he works five days a week, even if it's only four hours, five hours, he's very happy. Unlike Henry, my husband feels fulfilled in retirement if he wears a suit. And so putting on a suit gives him, well, how can I say it? It gives him meaning and purpose in life. And so everybody is different. Everybody is different. And he still works. He brings in a nice paycheck. And I can say the only difficulty with that is that we have now been propelled into a higher tax bracket because he collects social security as well as a pension. And now his W-2 salary, we're in a higher tax bracket than we were when we were working. That's a good problem to have, right? That's a good problem to have. And by the way, just for planning in the future, we're not the only Bogleheads like that. People who retire with pensions especially or some other form of income can be in a higher tax bracket or in the same tax bracket when you retire. And so the idea of doing Roth conversions because your taxes will be lower when you are 65, 67, all the way to social security, that may not happen. Yeah. And if you retire early, there's issues with if you're trying to obtain a tax credit on the healthcare, for example, the Roth conversions don't really help you in that direction either. Okay. Anybody else? How about Mel, are you still there? Mel, could you tell? I don't think you're retired. I think you're always active with lots of things. Jim, I think Alan's got his hand up. Go ahead, Alan. Yeah. Yes, I just want to point out, I just posted in the chat a link for a prior meeting we had with the pre and early retirement and the retired life stage with Jill Steinberg when she spoke about finding your purpose in retirement. That's on the Boglehead YouTube channel. And I highly recommend it to look at that, especially if you're approaching or in retirement, it brings up a lot of good points to consider from the psychological standpoint. Okay, thank you, Alan. Yeah, I really enjoyed that one. Richard, can you speak about the over 55 community? Yeah, what would you like to know? Austin, did you physically move from some place? Like did you move from one area of the country to another or close to your house? Can you hear me okay? I'm wearing my AirPods. Yeah, we can hear you. Okay, yeah, we were ready to move. We used to spend a lot of time hiking in the mountains and we moved from suburban DC to a community out in the Shenandoah Valley and to be closer to the mountains. But an important thing for us was a community. We wanted to have access to clubs with similar interests. To be honest, we're both introverts and so being able to go to whatever would be exercise classes, a conservation group, book clubs, kayaking, hiking, whatever you name it, to form a connection. We thought that was very important. And so yeah, we moved out to a new development and I think it's worked out pretty well. How did you select your? Jim, you moved to. Partly proximity, we love the area. We kind of vacationed nearby for a long time. In the general area and it was kind of like an hour and a half closer to the mountains where we like to hike with our dogs. And the other factor was, particularly for my wife, was not to be too far from our kids who are still in the DC metro area. So could you suffer from having too much to do at a place like that where there's so many activities? Yeah, I mean, I'm a kind of pessimist. Irish glass is half full kind of thing or half empty, I should say. I'm actually incredibly busy. I have two interests that are outside of the community. I'm involved in coaching and also involved in conservation work. And those have both kind of maybe were a little bit of a surprise to me. When I was younger, I used to play a sport very competitively that I'm now coach. And also I was a chess player and an astronomy nerd. And those are two things where I feel like I need to dedicate more time to in a retirement. So yeah, I have, I'm not really taking advantage of all the happy hours and the food and drinking options, which may be a good thing for my health. But yeah, I'm finding there's, where we're living is not very isolated. And so the fact I can coach the university and be involved in the local naturalist group is very fulfilling and very occupying. And did you find it very inviting moving there? Were, did you know anybody where you moved? No, no, we didn't. And I'll be honest, I retired young and so I did feel a little bit on the younger side of the community. I probably still do. But yeah, it wasn't too far from, we were ready to move from our home. And like I say, the location made sense to us. My wife knew some people, but it wasn't like some people over here have multiple family or friends that they're connected with. But then, it's typical in a lot of these communities. And to be honest, where we lived in Northern Virginia, everyone is a transplant and everyone's looking to make new connections. Yeah, do you find many people leave the community? There has been some turnover, some due to personal situations. I think we have seen some people moving in who are relocating because they were somewhere else and they realized they wanted to be closer to family. And a lot of people from around the country, their kids are working in the DC area. So we have quite a few people from all over the country. I have seen some people move out more for the motivations they want to go back to family. There was some kind of balance between the family close to here and the family where they came from. And I think that's been the primary factor. So what activity is the biggest surprise to you that you would have never predicted, let's say 20 years ago that you'd enjoy? I haven't really done anything like that. I'd been developing hobbies. I had a runway where the company I worked for was acquired and I kind of had about three years where I knew I wasn't going to be working forever. Could have been as long as five, but I thought three years is probably my runway. And so I got back into, and some of it was COVID related, sitting on the deck doing photography. I learned to do photography, taking pictures of birds. And so that's been a fulfilling thing doing a wide variety of nature photography. But other things have been resurrecting stuff I did when I was a teenager, a competitive chess player and coaching the sport that I used to play. There's a problem with two big things. I found it very enjoyable on part of two, special interest book clubs. And that kind of forces me to read at least two books a month that I probably wouldn't have read otherwise. And that's been broadening of the kind of things you might focus on. You feel like the community lets you have a healthier lifestyle? We moved here because of the hiking and my wife also is very active in the exercise classes and they have very good instructors. So that's been important to her. But no, I mean, I think if you, you can take advantage of the fitness facility or you can sign up for every happy hour depending on what your focus is, you know. I do worry a little bit for the people who are having their five course tequila meals and things like that, you know, quite how that's going to end up. But there's no shortage of food and beverage options as well as exercise. Sounds like a cruise boat. Yeah, I mean, I think in many respects, it probably is, yeah. Okay, anything else you'd like to add or suggest to people? I mean, I think to what some of the other speakers have said, the surprise thing, I didn't expect to get involved in all the naturalism and comfort salvation work. That's been very enjoyable because we've always been outdoor hiking people and now we actually understand more about the places we're hiking through. Get to enjoy it. So what's an example of a conservation work, like physically, like what was actually, are you doing? Yeah, so some of it, we have a trail that we maintain and develop. Some of it's removing invasive plants. You can get involved in citizen science, whether it's as simple as doing, you know, bird surveys or turtle surveys or, you know, other things like that. So there's a range of, and some can be a lot more in depth, like developing a sensory explorer trail in one of the local state parks, you know, for people who are vision impaired and things like that, where you can actually build a trail that people can enjoy the outdoors in one of the state parks. That sounds rewarding. Yeah. And you get to learn. And that's the biggest thing is the learning. And so then when I go back out into the mountains, I get to recognize more trees and more bugs and more flowers, you know. Yeah, somebody had told me about some bird things and I would never notice them when we'd go out for our walks with our dogs. And then they told me about this bird app. I forget what it's called. I'll put it in the chat. Probably Merlin. Yeah, Merlin. You hit record on your phone and as let's say a robin makes a noise and then a sparrow, then an eagle, then a penguin, it tells you, it's unbelievable. So I actually enjoy it a lot more and I recognize birds that I never would recognize in the past. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things. I think when we were younger, we used to wonder what all these birding people were doing and they're going out into the forest and sitting quietly and appreciating nature and paying attention. Anything like a mindfulness teacher would say was a really good way to enjoy the outdoors, you know. Yeah, thank you. Yes. Okay, any questions for Richard? Jim, I'd just like to ask maybe a general question for the group. I'm getting a brochure from a local community college for classes and some of them are geared towards, I think they call them older adults or something tax preparation, various things like that, stuff not related to finance. Has anybody taken classes after they've retired and did they enjoy it? Did they continue to do it or not do it? I just like to hear just a couple of quick words on whether people have tried it and whether they've liked it or not because it's popped in my mind and I'm thinking about but I'm not sure whether I want to do it or not. I mean, I can briefly talk to that. The naturalist course I did was about three hour sessions on a whole variety of topics as well as field work and so you get to see a very, very broad perspective of the natural world and then you can kind of go deeper into any of those. So some of it was classroom based and some was done out in the field and like I say, that was a very, very rewarding way to learn more about trees, bugs, birds. Snakes, turtles, whatever, you know. Thank you. Jim, we hear you. I know, sorry, one other thing I should say is our local college, I don't know if they still do it was offering photography, nature photography classes that people found very fulfilling as well. I don't know if they still offer them those before COVID. Thank you. I actually signed up for two classes that our local, we have a Purdue University has an extension near me and it was close enough I could ride my bike to it in the fall and it was quite enjoyable in some regards. Sometimes the teaching, I really have gotten used to a lot of self-learning through my career and using resources like YouTube and others. And what I noticed and there was a bunch of international students in the class, some of the teachers on YouTube are world renowned. You know, if you see a session on YouTube about let's say shortest path first algorithms, which is a very specific topic and there's five million views, you know that this teacher probably has their act together. So for example, there was a teacher from India and I had mentioned it to a couple of the Indian students there and they love this person and the quality of the teaching on YouTube was in some respects 10 times better than the local university professor. So there's a lot of stuff out there that is really good, really good that's available for free or you can pay for it too. There's some of those courses. But I found the going to school was interesting because it forces you to do stuff, forces you to do the homework. I learned a bunch of stuff that I got my eyes open to on a bunch of things that I never expected for specifically and we talked about in a previous meeting, some of the AI stuff that came along kind of under my radar and it just woke me up to that. So even though I was taking a class on databases and algorithms, what I think is I learned more about was artificial intelligence issues, which was great for me. It was very surprising. So I really enjoyed that. Thanks, Jim. Okay, Lady Geek, do you have your hand up? Yeah, about courses. I took every possible course I could when I was in college self-study. I'm very disciplined on that. So I follow what Mark Twain says, I never let school interfere with my education. So what I did, now I'm retired, I wanted to learn about something. I just went online to Coursera, found a couple of stuff at University of Massachusetts. Programming courses, language courses went through this, looked at that. Machine learning algorithm, I wanna look at about the machine learning before the chat, TPT, the generative AI stuff came out. I went through the course and okay, that's nice. So what are you gonna do with the class? I don't know. So I went to something else and it just didn't do anything. I mean, if you wanna go in person and learn, go to Meetup. If you like photography, just put photography in the search box and a half a dozen photography groups will show up. There's one like for hiking and photography. If you wanna learn nature, I mean, instead of a class which is structured and you have homework, which I really hate homework and I really hate writing a paper, so spreadsheets are fine. But just do what you want and look in Meetup for activities to do in person. There are social gatherings, take walks with people and that's how you learn live. I like it called live training. So I just walked through the park, I'm listening to birds, at least when I was doing that. But now I'm playing pickleball and in fact, I had one red tail hawk was watching me play pickleball a couple of weeks ago sitting on top of a light post. So instead of, because everybody thinks like when you're in school, when you're in college, when you're in work, what you do, you get sent to a class. Forget the class environment. Just do it for real, go to Meetup and work with, just find an activity you like to do, find a group in person, just join. That's how I found pickleball because I joined Meetup and found hiking and then pickleball found me through Meetup. And it turns out the pickleball course was within walking distance. I never knew what was there until Meetup pointed it out. So that's, is there anyone on this call who can speak to retirement as a child, as a child-free couple? Is there anything that you tend to do differently than a couple with kids or grandkids? I have one comment. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, just because I don't have any kids, I can't comment. I say my lifestyle hasn't changed, but I do know of one person when she retired, she moved down out of state to be with her kids. And then what happens if you move to be with your kids? What happened with your grandkids? What happens when they don't want you around? You go to all the separate to move and then all of a sudden they're fine for a year and then all of a sudden it turns out the place you moved to, to be with the grandkids, the parents are moving to another area out of the area for work. So there's a double-edged sword there and she's not in a good position right now. I know another couple who live, they maintain two homes, but they understand that they love and take care of their grandkids, but they understand that the grandkids may not like them or no, they'll just, they just don't want them around and situations change or they'll move out of the air. So just say, just be careful if you retire to be with the grandkids, that might not be a long-term situation. Yeah, we have an acquaintance that went through that. And lately there's been a thread on the site about go-go years, go-slow years. I forget what the name of the title is, it's from one of those books. And it's about, you know, you have the ability to travel, go on a very adventurous vacation, things like that in your early retirement that you may not be able to do when you're 90. And this person we know gave up her best years really to raise her grandkids. And there was no appreciation for it and they didn't treat her very well at the end. And she was very resentful, very. It wasn't just go see the grandkids every other week, it was full-time daycare type stuff. Okay, let's see if there's anybody else that would like to speak. Otherwise, I think we can call it on this meeting. We'll be publishing the chat, we'll anonymize the chat and we are also gonna put the audio out there. Anyone else? Well, we can also, that members can save the chat by clicking the three dots at the bottom of the chat window. The three ellipses, if you bring them up, it will have an option to save the chat. If you click on that, it will save to your computer. Yes, and I see Lady Geek put the, it's called go-go, slow-go, no-go years in retirement. Okay, I'd like to thank everybody for joining us. Do we have another? Oh, we do, okay. Oh, Catherine, go ahead. You're muted, if you'd like to unmute. Catherine, you're on mute. There you go. Are you guys talking to me? I must have accidentally put my hand, oh shoot, oh shoot, sorry about that folks. Yeah, that's okay, do you want to say anything? Oh, oh, this has been absolutely fantastic. I so much appreciate it. I really hadn't had anything to say. I've learned an awful lot. I've taken copious notes. I am 73 years old, and I can not convince myself to retire. And I really should, but I just can't quite make that step. And this discussion is really, has helped considerably. And letting me, and helping me see that, yes, it really is okay. There will be a life after retirement. I'm just sort of a workhorse sort of person. My work is, I just identify with it so much. And there's so much out there, and it's so encouraging to hear how other people are enjoying their retirement, the challenges. And I'll think, well, you know what? I bet I could meet that. I bet I can do it. So thank you so much. And again, I apologize for clicking the raise hand thing. I didn't intend to. Well, we're happy that you did. So what are the major things holding you back, would you say? Well, I'm a widow, I'm 73. My husband died young and I never remarried. And part of it is, I guess, that may have something to do with why my work has just taken, you know, been such a, you know, I've enjoyed it so much that I've, you know, that I just, I think, what will I do with myself if I'm not doing that? And I really am, a lot of things interest me. I don't think that this is a rational fear on my part. But partly, I guess, I've got kids. I can, they live in the same town across kind of in a different state. They want me to retire and come. I've got other relatives that want me to retire and come. And I just, I think it's just the insecure, the sort of personal social insecurity on that, which really when you look at it makes no sense. And I guess financial too, I worry about having enough on that. I've been working with, you know, doing out retirement budgets, doing that kind of thing, looking at it. And I think the chances I'll be okay, Eric Street are really high. And I'm not a big spender. And I think the chances are really high. I don't have resources in the realm that a lot of the boggleheads do, but I probably, you know, that doesn't mean it's not plenty. So I guess it's the insecurity really, it's the feeling that, and also at my age, you know, what if I worry about retiring and wanting to change my mind and I'm appreciated at the job I've got, does that mean that I could get another one or go back? Yeah, that's the, the irreversibility of it sometimes can be psychologically paralyzing. If you think it's irreversible. You know, I think you hit the nail on the head. You can, you can send me a bill for this. I think it's, I think it is the irreversibility. That's no, it's- Yeah, perceived irreversibility, because if you are appreciated at your job, I'm sure you could get another one. Well, you would hope so, but yeah, you would hope, but I don't know. But yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's the irreversibility of it. And then, and all of that other stuff I've, you know, been talking about is part of the insecurity, is part of insecurity when I look at and see that. It's, it's irreversibility. And those are just sort of examples of, oh my goodness, I'm worried about this because what if I jump off the diving board and I can't swim? But really when I analyze my situation, it doesn't totally, you know, okay, so what if it is irreversible? Now what? And I think that this in this meeting today has helped me tremendously in seeing, okay, maybe it isn't irreversible, but what if it is? Life is full of things to do. Well, a lot of the speakers talk about things they didn't expect can't come up and they embraced them, enjoyed them. So you can't always predict what you'd be, if you did this, what it would be like next year, but you sound like you have a curious mind, so I'm sure you'll find it. Can I jump in? Yes. Please, please, Lady Geek. The widow for only three and a half years. I was forced, but what I see in the back of my mind is my engineering mind is planning. What is the worst that can possibly happen? You ran the numbers. Yes. You're not in danger of going on cat food, as I like to say in the forum. No. So look at it from a third-person perspective and what I see happening, when I get in this situation like this, I look at other people. What did other people do? They're fine and what I'm worried about is that you get your mindset in such a rut that it becomes, you run into a problem of not being able to change your mind because you're so stuck in a rut. And what you need to do is break out. Many years ago, I took and passed the Dale Carnegie course on how to win friends and those people and what it really is, it's how to get control of your life by speaking in front of an audience, public speaking, your fear. And the thing is they said, what my, let me start video, sorry. What the instructor said, it's like a rubber, if you're like, it's like you hold, I'm holding my hands with a rubber band, imagine that. And what you're doing is you're stretching your, what you're doing is you're stretching your life. So you stretch your, think of what your limitations is like a rubber band. You're stretching your, and when you do that, you grow. So you need to grow your confidence. And when you get that, it's like, okay, and you have a feeling of a consciousness. So what you need to do is stretch, stretch your confidence and grow, stretch and grow. Otherwise you're stuck together and nothing happens. It's, so that, that's, in fact, that's what, when Jack Bova was alive, one phrase out of everything he said was even, wasn't even financial, just hit home with me. Because what he said is how, because you're worried, what am I going to do every day? He said the first thing you do every day is get up out of bed. If you don't do that, nothing happens the rest of the day. And that's that phrase that stuck with me for years, for several years, since he mentioned that because when, when I was in mourning and grief, I just, I was in bed, stuck my feet up and just roll out. Once you roll it out, it's difficult to roll back. So I just kept that motion through the bed. No, quick, okay, beds mate, I'm not going back. And you just move forward. And that, and it doesn't, you just keep moving one step in front of the other. Keep moving and stretch. And I think if you're at the point you're, what I hear from you is that you want to do this. Do it. I do, I do. You've done it. I like my work a lot. And I really feel that I make a difference where I'm working that matters to me. I get to use my mind, some creativity there. And I, you know, I think I'm sort of stuck in the, you know, who was it that said earlier in this, in this meeting that we really are replaceable. I actually was just thinking we're the only ones, you know. Actually that was me because, yeah, because, so what you have to do is if you're in a mid-sized company, whatever your background is, can you apply those skills outside of work or training? So volunteer your time somewhere. Oh yeah. Yeah. And you know, I can think there are a lot of things that interest me. So, you know, I think it's the, again, just the fear of stepping, you know, out that really doesn't make a lot of sense in, yeah. Would you have the opportunity to cut back on your work and transition a little bit into a slower pace or? I don't know, but I don't know if I could in a particular job that I've got, but I think that the, but there are people in my area, in my field that do part, you know, that do intermittent work, you know, for that kind of, you know, well, that will, you know, work a few weeks, a few months, get a temporary job for that in various places in the country. And there is- I'm saying if you told them you're not working on Fridays anymore, and what my experience is with indispensable people, when they say I'm not working Fridays anymore, the boss says, okay, because they'd rather have you Monday through Thursday than never. That's an excellent point. And I would, and I might learn that I'm not as indispensable as I think I am, and that would be, that guess, that would be fine. That would be fine. I drive by a cemetery every day, and I think of all the indispensable people in the cemetery. No, that reminds me. Yes, actually that's what I did. The prior months prior to retiring, when I was in, my husband was in, he had a severe dementia, and it's getting late, but anyway, I was on what they call 980 schedule, which is I work nine hours a day, eight hours on Friday, I had every other Friday off. So what I did is say, let me go down to having every Friday off. I took a 10% pay reduction. And just doing that is like, okay, it's a slow ramp down. So I did that slow ramp down, and I enjoyed three days a week. I have a friend who works one day a week. He still can't quit. He loves his job. He's doing, he is one of those indispensable people, but they just kind of keep him around because he's been around so long. It's more like an archive rather. I mean, he's there one day a week and they just ask you, pull stuff out of his head and like, here you go. But why the heck are you working one day a week? The guy goes, he has a vacation home. He goes through, they have two homes. They go back and forth. They go down the shore, they go here. Why are you working? And it's just maybe just for a social aspect. So they say you could go cold turkey, but the hardest part is to start. The hardest part is to go into the office. And once you go through that, you resign because I know a pickleball friend, she's been doing the one more year syndrome for like five years in a row. She finally said, okay, as she had the letter, she starts writing what I call the 369 letter, which is 369 I resigned. I've done that many times. That's all you need to say. I resigned my position effective, signed, done. That's all you need to say. The rest is for the interview. But I got this thing well in hand. But the idea is like she said she was crying when she wrote the letter. She never submitted. She went to her boss and said, instead of retiring, can I work part time? I'm like, I'm pulling my hair out. You did what? Why? Oh, but I'll retire at the end of the month. I just tell them part time because she couldn't. So she's going back and forth now. And everyone's different. So if you want, I mean, the hardest part is to do it in person. Like after this Zoom call, and if you just put pen to paper, dear to whom it may concern, I am resigning my position effective, give them two weeks notice or whatever you feel is necessary. My last day, I'm effective this date, my last day will be signed your name. And write that down, put it in front of you. And then you get nervous. And you're going to say, oh my God, what are you going to say? It's a happy occasion because everyone, you're not resigning because you did something bad. You're resigning because everyone's, it's my family's telling me it's time to listen and it feels time to go. That's what you tell them. Then after your last day of job, you go like, what the heck did I do? Doesn't need to know that. And you'll feel, you'll get a smile on your face like I done it, but it's the now what? Okay, so get a list of, I said meet up, get a list of wherever your skill is. If you have people or kids groups, volunteers, charities, your local township has volunteers. Oh, I could think of a trillion things I would like to do if I had more time. Make a list. I do. And I've made, I've made very good notes from this presentation side. Thank you so much. Well, maybe this should be the topic of a future meeting. We're going to see how Karen did three months from now. She's going to tell us how she's hiking up the Himalayas or something. Yeah, I mean, you're right. And then, and it's probably driving you crazy. You can't sleep. It's giving you anxiety. So you remove your anxiety by working off the list. Act on it. You are so, you are so right. You are so, you are so right. I ought to hit someone mentioned Dale Carnegie. I've got the, I've got the point. Is it how to stop worrying and start living books? That's exactly what I asked. I ought to just go flip through that again, I suppose. And you know, another thought someone had brought up irreversible, you know, was it you, Jim? Or who was it that mentioned that, that insight about irreversibility, that that's the main, that that seems to be the core of this sort of, you didn't put it like that, but irreversibility. And as we've talked since then, it sort of, it strikes me that not, that not retiring gives, gives you, you take time, your time is involved in work. And that's so many hours and so much of the energy and so much of your brain space when you're not working. I mean, when you're, even when you're outside of work, that the irreversibility could apply to the time that you spend not retired, that you've now lot that's not reversible, again, you don't get that time back spent doing these other things or stepping forth into the somewhat known, but not totally known. Well, how is that any different than, how is that any different than the irreversible? Let's say, but how is that any different than many, many other irreversible decisions you made? What about decisions, you start your job. What about the decision to go to school or have kids? Those are irreversible. Well, of course not reversible. You can change things as you go along. So retirement is just another thing to make one more. It's just another decision and there's ways you can work backwards or you can change a path. Okay, that's, go for it. That is fantastic. And I'm the woman that, I am the person that put in there about the problem, you know, widow worried about money, that kind of thing in the survey and really looking at it. Katherine, get over it, you know, get over it. It's gonna be okay. So thank you again so much. And I am so grateful that I accidentally hit the raise hand and that some, that I got pulled into talking anyway. So thank you so much for giving me so much of your time so generously. It's really making a difference. It was meant to be. You're welcome, Katherine, but I have two things to say. One is that by not retiring, you are avoiding the issue. Yep. And also remember what Mike Piper said, which is retirement sometimes is something that happens to you, not a decision that you make. Yeah. And if you start your retirement glide path now, just start doing the glide path into retirement, which would involve two things. One, financial, make sure you're okay financially, put it on paper, then check a big red check mark and say, I'm okay. And then also what you're gonna do with yourself when you enter retirement, put that down as your glide path into retirement and then do it on your terms, not on other people's terms. I'm making notes here. I agree with Jim that it's an irreversible, the fear is of making an irreversible decision, but that irreversible decision might be made for you by other people or things such as health. So. That's a good point. That's a good point.