 We were having good times on the sets. We were about to speak with Matas, Raghbi, Loka Land and International Land. We were going to speak with what happened on Thursday. We were at Coach Paul Fini and announced the squad for Los Angeles and Vancouver. That is the fifth and sixth leg of HSBC World Seven series joining us. Iwona Mai was hard touch and passion for Raghbi. Of course, overwhelming passion for Raghbi. How come you love this Raghbi and yet you play basketball at the university level? It was my first sports marketing job actually. So you developed passion for Raghbi since then? I learned from scratch and I think before I worked for the Kenya Raghbi Union, I had gone for Raghbi games. But I'll tell you for free, I did not remember who played, what the scores were, I did not know the rules. It was just a social, it made social sense to go for Raghbi before. Because I think myself and Osoro agree with you. We've been attending Raghbi games. A lot of ladies are coming, you know, very excited about the games, but when you ask them about the scores, they are not aware. No, you cannot blame them. It's because Raghbi is majorly a festival. What happens on the field is not just that that is happening on the field. There are other things that happen past what's happening at the field of play. Is that the same way Kenyan football administrators are supposed to package their round brand so that they can start attracting, you know, crowds? True, true. Our football has been majorly playground football. Just come watch, nothing else happens in the stadium. So people think that the stadium is all about going, sitting and watching the match. Yes, you have the 90 minutes of watching the match, but what else happens after that or before that? We were speaking about sports marketing and football specifically because right now no one is ready and very interested to go at Roaraka Sports Club or at Kamtoyoyo to watch Ushuru against Fortune Sarko because they say no value for their money. What do they mean when they say so? I would slightly disagree, but I believe the problem of Kenyan football is in the culture or lack of culture thereof. Culture is an association to something. For people to do what you want or for people to follow what you're following, then you should identify with something. I think since we started this at the backdrop of rugby, the difference is there is something that each rugby club stands for or the rugby players stand for. So when you ask somebody about rugby, they have different descriptions. The most common will be I can go to rugby with my child, I can go with my friends after doing my activities, I can hang out at rugby. It's something I can associate with. But when you ask about football, first of all, I think most people would start, I don't know where to watch the games, I don't know how to get where the games are. And even for those who know the people who are playing, I don't think I'll be so comfortable going to watch football. So I think it has to go back to defining what Kenyan football is because again you have to understand that the people who know the technical side of the game are not the people who will come and follow the game. That ratio is too little. So if you rely on the technicality of the games, then you'll remain alone with your games. That's why we have only footballers enjoying the games and going home. They only know what is happening. But the people who follow the game, they need much more than the technicality. Also I think because the culture that you said, a way of life, because you look at rugby, it's one spot that people love even from high school. You can follow them in that people know that high school rugby is big in Kenya. These are the same kids who will grow to university rugby, college rugby and these are the same kids who will grow to club rugby. And people can follow that. It's a true story. And it happens like in the world where look at Leblon, these kids have been followed from high school, college all the way to the NBA, NFL, the same thing. High school, college, NBA, then you turn professional. Rugby in Kenya is actually one spot that has done that and you can know that this kid actually went to Nairobi school. Then he went to University of Nairobi, then he went to Muamba and he went to the national team. But when you come to a football in Kenya, just one you will say that, eh, Osoro preda, I don't know for Maseno, then I don't know Western steamer. But that link between the narrative that they have for the people is really different. And without that narrative, without that storyline, then there is no way people can follow you. You will never have eyeballs. I mean a few forums of football where, you see there is a sharp disconnect in terms of funding football activities from the government and funding other, you know, sporting disciplines like, let's say golf, World Rally Championship is coming back to Kenya. We saw even President Kenyat himself being at Mu International Sports Centre Kasarana flagging off and even announcing sponsorship from the government. Kenya Open is slated for March 12th. And we will see a lot of government representatives there. But when it comes to football, no sort of, you know, government interests. And now that brings us to the question as to why several football journalists even have been questioning the government's lack of willingness to fund. But from marketing angle, why will governments prefer other entities at the expense of what we perceive popular sporting disciplines? From a marketing perspective, it still goes to what do you start for? What brand do you represent? Actually just a little bit of correction there. In terms of funding over the years, if we were to go at least two decades back, then football in Kenya has received the most amount of money of funding from the government. So that one is very clear. We can follow through. And ever since football has always been the only sport that has consist, those guys, they will go to the press and say, we can't go somewhere, the next minute they're given money of all the sports. They're usually very adamant. And they're usually the most, they're like that last born child. Whenever they throw a tantrum, things go. The government will rat. Exactly. So I think what do you start for? And we're getting into an age where everything has to be justified, even the expenditures within sport. And the only reason that Kenya is not allocating as much money to sport yet is because the sport has been able to account for all these fans that are being thrown to it. And football for us is the best example. We've seen countries, our neighbors Uganda, our drunkers, and their government still funds them. And it's very systematic, but its performance best is result best. They're playing better football than us, both at senior and junior level. So it comes down to what do you bring to the table? You've mentioned the Kenya Open. Yes. There's a huge diplomatic benefit of the Kenya Open that hadn't been actualized before. In times where sports tourism or sports is playing a crucial role in diplomacy, then you have to be cognizant of the political needs of the sitting government. So you are always, all the time, when you're looking to analyze such decisions, you have to get out of the sporting element and look at the bigger picture. So we've seen our neighbors like Rwanda invest money in clubs, in European clubs. And their president has been so much committed. Exactly. He's become the face, he's become the number one marketer for the country. He goes and is in the most important places, the right place at the right time, all the time. So instead of us, since we do not have a similar budget system, we do not have a similar funding system, instead of us doing the same of going out, then we had the one chance. And you have to remember the current Cabinet Secretary of Sports is a diplomat. Yes. She knows the importance of welcoming people and actually hosting them in a good way. She knows the importance of image. And right now that was the biggest and one of the first steps she did. If you look at some of the things that she's done just when she got into office, first was to fast truck, getting so far really back into the world rally calendar. She went out there to meet those people. And even if you look… There's a lot of lobbying. Lobbing that she does. Yeah. And in repackaging the Kenya Open, it is supposed to bring people together. You have to look at who plays golf, who watches golf. These are the decision makers. It means even as we are going as a country in the bigger picture that the country has as a government, then for us to capture the attention of the people who will spend money or pump money into the Kenyan economy, then we have to meet them where they are and most of them are where the golf is. Most of them are where the rally is because if you look at these two sports in terms of expenditure, when we are doing a marketing strategy, we look at consumer analysis, who consumes these particular things. So the people who consume golf and rugby, if you look at golf and rally, sorry, are these people who are able to make a significant impact economically in the long run. So for us, it's much bigger than just the sport. So the takeaway from this is that the current sports rights holders, the sports federations and the teams need to look at the bigger picture so that when you're talking to government, you're meeting them from their point of interest. So as a government, we know you're looking towards this. Like for instance, if you start with a vision 2030 approach towards government funding, you might get 10 times, even 100 times more funding than what you're getting as a sports federation. So look at what the government is doing and then look at how you fit in to them achieving their objective and the rally and Kenya Open have been able to articulate the same. So they are suiting the political and benefiting the sport. I know sports marketing is not our topic this particular afternoon, but just to wind up on that aspect, Yvonne is talking about a very important element of, you know, by the virtue that our CS is a diplomat, therefore, you know, she has to take us to the global front in terms of marketing as the same way a Paul Kagame Rwandis president is doing with now the number one marketer for that particular country. But now where does this leave the role of Brand Kenya and Kenya to what is in board? No, I think they are enjoying in that mostly with the Magiko Open, you will see Brand Kenya there and everything. I think Brand Kenya was raising awareness of Kenya all over and they are using golf to do that. I think it's because it's easy to use golf because it comes with many different terms and it being a European tour, it affects everybody without said Kenya. We are so in the world of golf because these are the people who follow the European tour. They want to know who is the best ranked Kenyan, who is the best seated Kenyan to come and play. And it will be major, people just don't realize this, but once a local or from the Magiko Open guests now to the European tour himself and you see our Kenyan playing in Europe, then people realize that this is actually big. But even away from that, look at the companies that are coming to sponsor that. You realize the company, the way you are saying it. Look at the companies that are coming to sponsor such an event. Look at Absa Group, look at EABL. And they know these are the consumers who are taking our product. Other sports, Muscle Football, they are still lagging behind. They don't want to embrace the way things are done at the moment. They are still lagging behind and saying that we need funding, we need to get this, we need to get this. They don't even know how to package to get money for themselves because last time the Kenya Open, last time itself, I think Marches gave them upwards of 450 million for broadcast rights of golf, which many Kenyans don't actually watch, don't even know that there's golf on TV. Even if they tune into a golf channel, they don't even realize that this is a big thing and that's where they lose the point of it all. And it is going to be big and it's going to be bigger. And these other sports, all the time they are going to be suffering because they don't want to embrace new ideas. They don't want to embrace new ideas. Now even let's speak about the squad naming of Shujabai Paul Finion Thursday ahead of Vancouver and Los Angeles 5th and 6th legs of Fethish Biswal 7 series respectively. Rotational aspect, why is the coach opting for the same? Because he's dropped a few players who featured in the last four legs and bringing in new faces, the likes of Oscar Uma wasn't played recently, making the cuts. It's an Olympic year. It is an Olympic year. And with the prestigiousness of the competition that is Olympics, then everyone wants to at least medal at the Olympics. If you remember Kenya's best showing in Global Rugby was during the 7th World Cup way back, it should be in 2013 or 2013. And we were able to make semis. I think Finlis, I've not had the opportunity to hear so much thoughts about that but I think he knows or he's realized the potential that Kenya has to actually medal at Global competitions. So he's been taking the past two years to create the squad that is going to play at the Olympics. So I would look at it as a strategy towards him picking his squad for the Olympics. For me, I think it's a positive. I didn't think people like Oscar Uma are going to come back to the 7th World Series because considering the conditioning required to play at that level, I thought that the absence from the 7th scene might not be a reality. Osoro Robert, the inclusion of those players notably Oscar Uma who has had, of course, his time with the national team Shujant with his vast experience he has played at the big stage most of the times. Sami Ullich also making a comeback. I don't know, how would Paul Finlis revolve around trying to blend those who featured during the previous four legs and those who are making the cut for the first time this year. I think in my opinion also he has to consider the performance of the previous legs because the previous legs we did not, like the last leg we did not, the sitting leg would not perform very well. We lost some, all the three matches that we had in the pool. So I think he has to consider that and going to Las Vegas is also considering that we are playing Las Vegas and Vancouver. Then the calendar changed because of the COVID virus and we are going to have the Asian legs coming a little bit later. He has to consider that I have to get my best players going for Las Vegas, rest some of my best players and bring them back into the tight end because now you realize that the format of the series also changed. We don't have the ball, we don't have the plate. It's all about the ranking number. Where are you going to get, where's your number going to be and that is actually what they are fighting for the moment. We are going back to the old format for this North American leg. I think it was a very, it was a commercial best decision which I did applaud. It's not good for the 7th rugby fan but when you come to an age where especially while rugby being the first global federation to actually remove the gender identity out of its competition then they are looking to give both men and women an equal opportunity and this was a very commercial decision in terms of ensuring that the 7th World Series incorporated as many women's competitions as possible and we went back to the ranking system and I think our coach Finley might have had a little bit of confidence bringing these players at this time because we are reverting back to the old system for this North American leg and we are going to have enough time to showcase or to test the fitness levels of Sami and Umma coming back and then I think also it was a very psychological move on the end of the coach because we've been having young lads we see them, we've seen them during the 7th circuit they do so well and then they get there and there's a little bit of... Complacency? Now performing at the world stage is different. So we need this blend actually is very good for us because now at least the young boys are going to actually have psychological confidence going into the game so they'll be able to execute I think it was the time of the former homeboys coach was also Paul Muruga the one who was put into the deep end baptism by fire bringing the young lads but when they get to that stage it's a bit different that's why even he has kept one captain at the moment, no changes in the captain because this is the guy who can bring the young guys come to the fold this is how we do it at the global stage and they can grow from there How instrumental is the experience tree of calling Sinjeru, Andrew Amond and Wilins Ambaka in that particular squad of course they have been evergreen, they have been there I think it's also they are getting into the toilet years of the game for them and now they have to give these players a chance they are calling Sinjeru but he is not performing the way he did in 2012 he is not performing the way he did in 2010 so I think he is there back from injury again this I think is third leg that he is getting into but now I think his major work at the moment is molding this young tux to take over and we've seen that during the half time talk the boys get it Sinjeru gets so personal he is like you know guys this is what we need to do he knows he is not as fast as he used to but he has taken that I think that's one of the things that made me think that Injera and Oscar might not come back because we saw them I noticed they were more inclined towards making things better than during their time I think sometimes I always think Andrew Amond is a superman he doesn't look like he is anywhere retiring of all the people we've had in the series our captain he doesn't look a day older than 25 I remember these players are the ones who brought us to the world stage they are the ones who brought us to the world stage and the narrative has been them at that stage but I think we are moving away from that now we are bringing in the young guys look at Bafa Meda I think is debut in Hong Kong 2016 and from there he has grown on to that stage 24 years but he has grown on to that stage and for now even everybody will be like I want to get on to that I think the role Andrew Amond has been playing giving his service to the nation needs to be applauded because this man I wonder which time does he rest because he is featuring in Safari 7 during Kenya Cup he is there for KCB KCB all the time you know for 15s I think what your team has done as a player during your prime just perform at your prime but he has been at prime for a decade Andrew Amond has been at prime for a decade the most interesting brother about Andrew Amond you remember when the heavyweight the experienced players were downing their tools over contractual Andrew Amond was there man I was captain he actually upheld I think Andrew was a brand I don't know I think at some point he gets branded as a betrayal because you remember when the likes of Injera Amond Injera, Uma Uma Adema, Lavin when there was that but I think for him he is shown the best leadership quality that would require any captain actually because he doesn't take sides all the time he doesn't take sides he is always almost neutral to try and fit in the needs of every party I think what goes on behind the scenes is maybe much important than what goes on in front and he knows that as a leader he knows he doesn't have to air his dirty laundry because to the public so he doesn't so he doesn't feel the need to look like oh let me do this so that I am seen like this he maintains that he is like our Waikibaki Okonobi was doing so well but anytime he was being bashed as president he never responded but things were going on the way so I think he is a very good leader and I think for all our players they responded the best to the strength and condition for the rugby player and he is the ultimate machine Ultimate machine of course as we wind up let's speak about Kenya Cup it's March day 14 and fixtures are on card of course KCB up again Oilers, oh my goodness Oilers, is it because of financial and concrete sponsorship they have been doing very well considering they are making their debut in Kenya Cup or it is the second time they have Gibson Wero it is also the people it is about the people and I think if you had a chance I didn't get to watch Gibson Wero as much but if you had a chance to go through his philosophy as a player then you'd understand why he's doing so well as a coach and think money not withstanding it's about the person behind the team it's about the people within the team and I think for him I think he makes the entire change in the Oilers team Gibson Wero must have played alongside the likes of Benjamin Nahim Yes, he was in fact he was the only kikuyu in the rugby team and just when people thought this line is not meant for people from Central but he has a very good work ethic and I think that's what he's instilled in his players and we've seen him handle situations I think when they made their debut during the seven circuit as a team we saw how he handled the team and his players have actually benefited a lot from his ethics Western Bulls, they are not doing very well and they are up against strong boys at the bull ring they lost much they attained they lost like the bull ring but they look like they will get relegated they actually relegation zone kizumu, relegation zone and kizumu is also playing blah blah blah blah that is at KU and they are pulled away from the zone and they are trying their best to stay there because you don't want to go for that relegation zone and you don't want to come back that looks like a derby it's been worrying actually to have both Western teams in relegation it's very very worrying generally what do you make of the kenya kapran this particular season how is it been like of course it's a battle between kcb and kabras kabras debut in the kenya kabran they are not stopping they are just maintained this season has been has been really good because if you look at the people who are fighting for the playoff slot they are also not so not so common people we've seen a season where heliquins are almost looking like it's their first season back in the kenya kapran so I think we are picking up the only worrying thing they are having the playoff slot we have got I think momba we have got nondis impala we have the first two kabras kcb but this one we have to fight for that position the only worrying thing is having sumu and western bulls at relegation worrying because initially playing in the kenya kabran playing in the premier competition is a sign of a result of the work of growing the participation because if you do not have all these regional representatives in your premier league then it means we are doing something really wrong so for me this season that will be the only worrying thing the national championships are amazing and I think sometimes if that one day and in a deal situation we had TV for that I think people would understand why it means so much to have regional TV I think if there is a spot in kenya any corporate to come on board and sponsor it is rugby that overwhelming passion from rugby fans just like you indicated even from players themselves they deliver to the fullest I think what people have failed to understand is I was told at the moment is being failed by decision makers most of our decision makers more so in a traditional TV is that they don't understand rugby is a big sport everybody thinks football is a big thing athletics is a big thing but they don't know the value of rugby on TV look at the Super Rugby everybody watches Super Rugby everybody wants to watch when they go on TV everybody watches on TV everybody goes to TV and says I want to watch Super Rugby look at 6 nations people are following it all over the series comes everybody is on TV to watch and it's us as TV which I am personally in to make that concrete decision to cover up that's the open because you look at even these sports like the NBA, the NFL which are big on TV they not just that a boom to TV they took there was a president said let's go cover basketball even when you go back to the history of the English Premier League it's all driven by the media largely driven by the media and you go to the UK you will not see anything to do with any other league or federation until they cover everything to do with the UK you watch BBC you watch Sky Sports you will know up to that 6th league before you hear about any other league so there is a huge media influence in terms of Kenya I think we have to be cognizant of the fact that the sports ecosystem is not fully developed so it might not make economical sense right now for broadcasters to pick up such properties but I think we should we should empower our current government to understand the economical sense that sports brings and that way then it will have a ripple effect if you notice in anything that is done if it's government backed the ripple effect always ends up being a lot if we just go back to the Kenya open within sports marketing and sponsorship we have something we call category inclusivity if I have this water then I can't have another water in the same event and you'll see it's replicated across various sports properties but look at Kenya open how many banks give money to it all our Kenyan banks give money to the Kenya open why because of the government factor so anything that government backs for instance right now if government was to take a strategic direction to invest in grassroots sports you'll find that all these branches of our nini will give something to support those grassroots projects so we are moving away from playing blame games but what we can do right now is to ensure that we expose especially people like me in sports marketing and in sports business we are working towards ensuring that we expose our knowledge because when we do that then they understand what role they play now like for instance some of us are trying to lobby to have the government include sports as a key strategy for achieving the vision 2030 because we understand how that can influence or rather accelerate the government achieving this vision so it's about now sharing the stakeholder within sports you speak to it's about lack of knowledge most of them do not understand what role they play so right now we are moving away from also and so should have that we are saying the table is so big so you can take this seat at the table no game of musical chairs this time the table is set the best advice for the federation that everybody in sports is give a chance to someone who has landed to help you out because if you remain your traditional role you are going to fail completely quality conversation it's been with Yvonne Amaya reputable sports marketer and someone who has overwhelming passion for Agdi as well talking about what has been happening in the world of sports marketing of course this sports marketing topic is a huge conversation that we need to create a two hour block show just to talk about it because even as we speak now at some point one of the Kenyan leading betting firms donated their contracts with Irish football body they have also left sponsoring Everton and though they continue with other franchise Simba and Yunga in Tanzania alongside which entity in South African also they continue with sponsorship of the same so Yvonne it's been a pleasure having you on board thank you for coming through I can't go without saying that you forgot to say about the challenges series and they have qualified to the Olympics they qualified to the Olympics and if you remember the last Olympics they did not get so many chances to actually play more games before the Olympics so we did not do so well in the Olympics so I think I've heard Lenis on the show in all fairness just as we close out also the Coach Findlis because you have to remember Findlis so part of his program included increasing the exposure for exactly especially much fitness heading to the Olympics so they are heading out to the challenges series also for them in Cape Town and I think we're going to get a few more games than we had before the previous Olympics thank you for that clarification and of course looking for sparkling performance from Kenya Linus we have qualified so two Kenyan women sports team sports they have already qualified of course Suja too have qualified so we are waiting for other representatives to see whether they can also qualify we've seen noq trying to intensify their preparations in terms of even urging the government to fund all these sporting disciplines to prepare very well ahead of the summer games slated for Tokyo that brings us to the end of this conversation we're going to take a short break of about two minutes before we come back with the funds and where we will give a focus on international football thank you for sticking to the touch line we will be back shortly