 Well, welcome back. We're here in the gallery where the gold exhibition is displayed and congratulations on a wonderful exhibition and a fabulous film as well, so generous with information and the collection items. What we're going to do is begin by asking you to say a little about yourselves and your role here at the British Library, and then we can talk a bit about the genesis of the show and what you've learned from putting it together. So why don't we start? I know you've just introduced yourselves through the film, but once again, Eleanor, can you begin and say a bit about your job here at the BL? Thanks, Alex. I'm Eleanor Jackson and I'm Curator of Illuminated Manuscripts in the Western Heritage Collections here at the British Library, and I'm one of the co-curators on the Gold Exhibition. Thanks. I'm Kathleen. I'm Kathleen Doyle. I'm the lead curator of illuminated manuscripts in the Western Heritage Collection, which means that we look after the pictures in them, so a bit of a fortunate task. Coming from Western Europe, so in Latin and Romance languages and in Greek. I'm Annabel Gallup. I'm the lead curator for Southeast Asia in the Asian and African collections in the British Library, but I'm really here. One of my roles as curator, co-curator of this exhibition, is to gather together the expertise of all my amazing colleagues in Asian and African collections who have all contributed to this exhibition. One of the great things about the film that we've just seen is it's really revealed to us how many contributors there have been. We've heard from a lot of your colleagues. I'm sure there are many more as well. My first question for you really, and maybe Eleanor, you can take this one, is about the genesis of the show. How did this show come about? It's quite an unusual venture, I think, for the British Library to draw together material from such a large span of time in so many different languages and cultures, and it's fascinating to see them all brought together. So can you tell us a little bit about how it came about? Yeah, so we wanted to put on an exhibition about gold because it is such a consistent feature of bookmaking traditions around the world, not only consistent in the techniques that were used to apply it, but also in the meanings that people used it to express, especially meanings of value. You know, books are a medium of communication and nothing communicates value like gold. So we wanted to do this exhibition to explore those connections through some of our most beautiful and gorgeous manuscripts. Celebrate that. And I mean, it's not the first show to open at the British Library since all of the lockdowns and privations of the pandemic, but one of the things going around the exhibition, and I'm sure has really come across to people watching this from the film, is just how kind of shimmering and kinetic and wondrous it is. I mean, it's like an exhibition of things that can't really be digitized. And I wonder how did you choose the items for display? I mean, presumably a lot of the heavy lifting of putting this show together was done when you were all working far from the British Library in your own homes with variable personal Wi-Fi and so forth. So can you say a bit about how did you choose the items and what led to the groupings that you have here? Who would like to answer that? Sorry, Annabelle, why don't you? Well, yes, as you said, well, the work had started before lockdown, but it was and as soon as we were allowed back into the British Library, we came in and to start looking at the actual manuscripts themselves. But of course, there were restrictions because of the pandemic. And so one thing we couldn't do, which we had thought would be essential for any exhibition is to look at things together. So mostly we were looking at things individually and trying to think, is this good enough? Because this is an exhibition of stars. Everything that you see is a star in its own right. But it's really, we've actually learned so much. It's only here in the gallery, as we put things out, we suddenly thought, oh my goodness, look at the Golden Haggadah next to the Queen Mary Salter. They work so well together. And for example, in the, we especially, Ellie had especially chosen the seal of the Emperor Baldwin, 13th century Roman Emperor. And his seal is actually of gold. And it was only when we installed it in the case, we realized that just above it, we'd also shown two commissions issued by the last King of Myanmar, King of Burma, Tebor, with his own royal seal, also stamped in gold. So there were all sorts of synergies, which actually hadn't struck us until the exhibition came together in the gallery. And that's one of the most exciting things that I think we've all found. Yeah, I mean, I wonder if it sets a kind of new kind of precedent for working together across the library as well. I mean, the one of the really extraordinary things about this show. And I wonder how obvious it will be to visitors going around is that 100% of the items on display in this exhibition are parts are in the British Library's own collections. I mean, from it's a very, very broad collection here at the British Library. There's no doubt about it. And yeah, I mean, there aren't that many collections, I suppose, in the world that could have generated this. And yeah, yeah, I think as I was saying, that was sort of result of working during lockdown, because we had initially thought that we would like to have some loans. But you can't ask for something you haven't seen. And it was, yeah. But it's, I think we're all a bit surprised at how well things work together. And one of the comments that we had at our non virtual opening last week, that so many people came up and said that the juxtapositions are really fascinating. As you comment, like, well, we're here. It's amazing. If I can be afforded a favorite case, but each of these manuscripts from different traditions in different languages, different time periods, and all of a sudden you see them together. And it's not just the wow factor, but I think other more subtle themes start to start to emerge. And it is an exhibition that we could have done, you know, three times over, because we have so many incredible manuscripts in our collection. And we started out with a long list that, you know, it probably was three times the length of what we have, if not more. And so it was a lot of work to hone it down to the 50 objects we have on display. And partly it was to do with balancing items from different cultures, different traditions, languages, et cetera. And partly to do with choosing objects that would complement each other nicely, both visually and thematically. You can imagine the spreadsheets. I can imagine, I can imagine spreadsheets. But the other thing that I can imagine, and I experienced, you know, just teaching online throughout the pandemic was that no matter how wonderful your screen is, and no matter how brilliant the digital images that you have at your disposal, it, you know, everything is screen size, right? So one of the things when you're planning an exhibition, it's so easy to forget, even if you know perfectly well how big something is in real life. And one of the things that I think is so fascinating about this exhibition, isn't just the chronological scale and the range of languages, but the scale that we see, which ranges from really very tiny or innate little books that are like jewellery all the way through to a manuscript that unfortunately is off camera, but it's, you know, it's taller than me. Which, yeah, I mean, did that, was that presumably one of the things that you also wanted to put across was the incredible range of objects that that are used with with kind of golden embellishment? Yes, absolutely. And I mean, you brought up the subject of how things look different on screen. And of course, gold is one thing that is classically incredibly difficult to digitize. You know, the library has done a huge amount of work in digitizing manuscripts. And I think most of the items in this exhibition are digitized and available to view online, but you just don't get a sense of the gold in images. You know, you have to see them in person and to see the way the light moves on them. That's something that the only really work in person. Yeah, the multi-dimensionality. Well, actually, I do think that they work in the film. I think you could see that the moving camera actually is capable of transmitting, I think, surface textures and glitter. But the other thing, too, is that until electrification, all of the gold, you could see it by daylight or moonlight, I suppose, but also by by flickering candlelight. And I think that, you know, some things get flattened out with with light bulbs as well. So the exhibition, you mentioned that it opened a week ago. It's been open for a week now. I mean, Kathleen, can you say a little bit about the initial response to the show? What have people been making of it? I think we're all so pleased, aren't we, because people have seen what we hoped they would see. We've had some really wonderful reviews. Some of the journalists we had stayed with us and just stayed and talked and looked at things. But I think we've had several four and five star reviews. And I hope that other people can come as well and see them in person because it does, I think it causes many people to think. We have some of the most famous things in the collection, as you will have seen. But sometimes next to something that's never been shown before is very little studied. And so even if you're an expert in one type of book, you're going to see something that will surprise you. Yeah, I certainly did. I mean, the juxtaposition just in the case behind us, I think there's a manuscript in Greek. There's two in Latin and there's one in Hebrew. And I mean, those are language groupings that are so often estranged in library catalogs, aren't they? So yeah, it's really wonderful that it's had such a warm response. And I'm sure we'll say this again, but it's open until the 2nd of October. So everyone watching them, have an opportunity. I hope to come in and see it for yourselves. So I think we're hoping to be able to field some questions from people who are watching this live. And there is, I think, a little question box somewhere on your screen that will enable you to pose questions. And actually, I can see the magic of screens. I can see that I've got one here from John Stuart Gordon, who is asking about the pigments in the manuscript. So I'll just read his question. Were the other pigments, the blues, red, greens of related value, sort of equivalent value to the gold, and did the use of one sumptuous material necessitate the use of equally sumptuous materials? That's a good question. Because gold, we think of, is the most valuable pigment. But was it? Ellie, do you want to take that one? Well, I guess the first thing to say is we don't know exactly what pigments were used in any individual manuscript unless we've done scientific testing on them, which, for the vast majority of our manuscripts, we haven't. So it's a tricky one to answer. I know that lapis lazuli, for example, is said to have been, I think it's equivalent value to gold, that those are the two most valuable pigments, both precious, well, stone and metal. Both were imported very long distances before they were used in manuscript production often, and often used together. You know, there's a lot of manuscripts in the exhibition that are the golden blue palette. And yeah, I mean, I suppose it stands to reason that if you're using one extremely valuable pigment in a manuscript, you're going to use similarly valuable materials for the others as well. In the film, Hamish, I think, made some really, really important points about labor and the labor of the extraction of materials and the production of them. And I think maybe that's another thing that comes across is that the material in itself has a kind of value by weight. But the transformation of those materials into paintings by skilled artisans is, you know, a kind of another, I suppose, form of value that really comes across throughout the exhibition. Any fool can have a lump of lapis lazuli. It takes a really skilled artist to grind it in the right way, bind it with a medium, and apply it to the page, doesn't it? But I think the interesting thing is that lapis, we know, only came from one site in Afghanistan, that was one reason for its very high cost that it had to travel so far. I think the other interesting thing that Hamish also brought out is that it's not possible to tell where the gold comes from in each of these manuscripts because gold was used and reused and circulated in the form of gold coinage, which could then be melted down. So one does look at all these wonderful manuscripts and just wonder where the gold comes from. But it's something about the aura of gold, it's so pure, is that it's so difficult to trace. Yeah, and also I think whether we know exactly where the particles on the page came from, there can be no doubt that they reflect incredibly complicated trade networks that connected the cultures that we're seeing in the cases, didn't they? And on the pigment front, you've seen in the film some excerpts from about a two minute film that Patricia Lovett and one of our bookbinding conservators did for us, and people have also said how interested they are, I think including your husband comment, that you just say, oh, how are they? How are these? How is it applied? How did it get into books? How do you make a gold ink? How do you write a whole book in gold? So that's a nice aspect that we wanted to explore as well, the origin and also the technique and how is it done? Pre-modern scientists were often so interested in alchemy, the turning of base metals into gold. But the funny thing is that actually there's another kind of alchemy, which is turning gold into books and manuscripts and objects and bindings and so forth, which is really fascinating. So there's another question here from Yoko, saying thank you so much for this amazing private view. You're welcome. And her question is, do you have any plan for the future to organize Gold II? Oh. An exhibition with the long-listed items that you have which miss them? And if so, she says it would be really wonderful. So Gold, the second album, is that in the works? I think we're already compiling the list of all the things that we couldn't fit in this time round, certainly. Well, as you know, we've got two galleries and this is the smaller of the two spaces, which is why we have only 50. And as we were working on it, I think the bigger space did loom. But on the other hand, then you really do need to enhance it with other sorts of objects and more lines and to be able to make a sort of a pun. But it is kind of a jewel of just a small, very focused, very beautiful. 50 objects is actually, I mean, it is a lot, I think. And it invites, I think, kind of close and careful looking. I think there's another thing in that question, which is about how materials allow you to cut across the collection in some really interesting ways. And you mentioned Lapis Lazuli in blue, which certainly connects Europe to the kind of mountainous range in and around Afghanistan, which is where I think we think it was mostly sourced in the Middle Ages. And it's probably a bit mean to say, let's brainstorm other materials that could let us do that. But I think even very ordinary inks, I think, could help to tell some of those transcultural and trans. So gold, too, or some other material of note. OK, I'm going to ask another question. This one from Raymond Lam. Thank you for an inspiring and very interesting tour. On behalf of everyone involved, thank you, Raymond. The Buddhist manuscripts from Thailand and Myanmar date to the 19th century. Do we know how early back gold was being used for Theravada texts in these regions and cultures? That's a good question. Yes, it's a very good question, because manuscripts on paper and organic materials from Southeast Asia don't exist from a long time back. The earliest manuscripts really only date from the 17th century onwards. That is manuscripts written on paper. So that will explain why the ones we have on display in the gallery are from the 19th century. But when you think that the oldest items in the entire exhibition are two gold strips from Myanmar. They're Buddhist chants written in Pali in the Pew script, which would have been rolled up and placed at the base of a stupa, which was being constructed to symbolize the presence of the Buddha. When you think that gold, the association that gold was used for writing the most precious sacred texts already at that early period, it does suggest that gold was also used for manuscript illumination. But we simply don't have any examples extant today. And remarkable survivals, those two. I wonder, looking at them, if part of their message is that the gold is valuable, but the text more so. I mean, is that ultimately what is being said? Is that the preciousness of the words or the messages are somehow more valuable than the material things? Or maybe that's maybe. I'd like to think that, but these are probably acquired after following they were just discovered by villagers digging, and things like that come up through archaeological investigations. I think the problem with gold is that it is so versatile that most gold manuscripts or inscriptions were very quickly melted down and reused for other things. So actually, interestingly enough, there's an inverse proportion. Gold used in small quantities in books will probably survive for many centuries, but the ultimate gold manuscripts are very, very susceptible to being recycled and being valued more for their material rather than their words. Yeah, and when you have gold leaf, which, as I think you and also with the help of Patricia Lovett explained, is beaten out to these almost impossibly thin foils, it's actually very difficult to reuse it in that form, to kind of scrape it down and make it into something else. But you're right, these solid gold objects must have been irresistible once people found them. Yeah, okay, another question. Well, this one's a very open question, so if nobody would like, if you don't want to do this, then just say no. But the question is, can you talk a bit more about the inscriptions on actual pieces of gold? I think these are some of the most surprising astonishing artifacts in this show, is like that a manuscript can actually be a solid piece of metal furled up. Yeah, do you have other kind of reflections on that beyond what you've already shared? Well, actually we've got this one wonderful case where all the golden objects are gathered and it shows what a range of texts there are. There are sacred Buddhist chants in Pali. There's a secular letter from the princes of Bali to the Dutch governor. There's a treaty signed between the king of Calicut and the Dutch East India Company. And there are two gold commissions issued by the last king of Myanmar to an underling but making him an overlord of two townships. So I think you can see the range of uses that they've been put to. And perhaps in the same case is an extraordinary. Yeah, it's one of our other really early items is just a fragment. You could see it in the film of a cannon table, so sort of concordance that would list passages that are the same in a Greek gospel book that's painted gold and then painted on top of that. It was almost as early as the early... Yeah, so I think it's faded to 6th to 7th century so it's right around the same time. And it's interesting, those cannon tables, they're so astonishing but they're also in effect an index. It's like the most glamorous index, the most unimaginably glamorous index, isn't it? And it suggests that they're interested in more than just the indexical function of the words. They're saying something pretty profound. And I think it goes to your point that gold emphasizes the sacredness of the text. And maybe both are true. It's valuable in itself but because it's so valuable then it is appropriate to honor. I think in the case of the sacred manuscripts it's a way of saying this is the word of God. You know, this isn't just any ordinary text. It's not any ordinary words. These are God's words elevating it. Yeah, for the maker as well. I mean, I've not used gold ink very much but I have to say it's incredibly difficult to use to get it to flow through your brush or your pen. I mean, it's really, really tricky. I mean, Patricia love it, it makes all that kind of stuff look very easy. I mean, I guess our best hope of understanding how a medieval artist or scribe would have used it. But I wonder sometimes about the meditative function for the artisan or the scribe producing these texts as well. Okay, so another question about, I think Kathleen's star object, the Queen Mary Salter. I think this might be unanswerable, but you can have a go. What would be the cost of commissioning a book like the Queen Mary Salter written in gold today? More than a Ferrari? The cost questions are always difficult because we don't usually have, there's some contemporary record, well, a little bit, a couple of generative after that of the Lillington missile where we have the accounts from Westminster Abbey and the book still survives. And it's also complicated because the scribe got room and board and I think four pounds a year to say he wasn't just paid to do that but the images were paid for separately. But something like that book it's also made by the Queen Mary master and every single illustration by the same artist it must have taken a very long time and it was not a cheap. In then, I think one of the things we have so few records explaining how the cost of the scribe, the cost of the parchment, the cost of the materials. But I think actually the impression that you get is it's actually the cost of the maker and the parchment that would have been the main driver for cost. But these kinds of menus, well, that's what I mean. Yeah, exactly, probably, I mean, for some of the books in this exhibition you probably have the artisans resident in your palace or castle or whatever for the period of time making them. They're just so highly bespoke but I think we all wish that we knew more about the price tag to be a bit Jessie J. But it's not about the price tag which is what she would explain if she was on this panel anyway. So another question that I'm sure everybody, well, we probably have some insights from the films but really it's about the object that you most enjoyed working with or that you were the most astonished by that you learned the most about. I wonder if you each have a kind of a thing that you knew you wanted to have in the show but this gave you an opportunity to learn about it in a way that you hadn't anticipated. Is that a bit of a mean one? I mean, your top favorite is another way I think of putting the same question. Well, I'm gonna answer it in reverse because I think it would be, I think I've talked about, I might have, but you saw in the back of, in your background, something, well, you knew about it but there's amazing, Vermont, which is a grant of a title of an honor to an English woman on silk and then covered with gold and inscriptions and it's just so ridiculously sumptuous. I mean, it has everything that you could possibly want like an embroidered parasol. I mean, it's because it's not just the gold on that object. It's set into this extraordinary silk textile and... Yeah, so we are all looking at it as we speak and we hope that you'll come to the exhibition Sorry everybody, you'll have to come. And see it too, but it's over two meters high. It's a pheromone from Misha Alam II, the Mughal Emperor, issued in 1789 to Sophia Plowden, who is an English woman who was resident in India at the time. Her husband was an East India company official and Sophia was a musician who loved Indian music so she'd attend the Suarez at court and she actually copied down the tunes and then transcribed them for Harpsichord and published them to Greater Claim in back in England in the 1780s and such a great story and so she was honored by the emperor for her interest in courtly music and so she brought back with her to England this amazing pheromone which is written on paper which has been entirely gilded behind and then set on a piece of red silk which has then been stamped in silver and gold and adorned with decorations and the royal insignia of a parasol at the top. It's one and it's been amazing condition considering how old it is. It's also I think an interesting object because so many of the objects here if we know about who made them or for whom they were made, they're men really and this is an object that I mean it must have towered over the woman for whom it was presented but it is really nice to see the feminine shining through as well although we're also looking at a rather wonderful Tibetan manuscript which I think also has some very powerful female deities inscribed on it as well. Ellie, do you have a maybe last word favorite star object that you'd like to end with? So from going from what's probably the biggest item in the exhibition to maybe, well, one of the smallest I think my favorite is the little gold girdle book 16th century English manuscript in a precious gold solid gold cover. It's about it could fit in your palm like this and it's designed to be worn on a girdle so from a lady's belt hanging on a chain and so she could pick it up and read it whenever she wanted. It contains the Psalms in English verse translation and I love it because it's a gorgeous object and it just feels so special to hold it in your hands. It's just glowing and gorgeous and also because I had great fun researching it because there's a tradition that it belonged to Anne Boleyn which we wanted to get to the bottom of for this exhibition because it's something that people kept asking us about and sadly it probably didn't belong to Anne Boleyn but I had a great time going through all the 19th and 18th century sources trying to find out where the story came from and the sad answer is that it came from a mix up. Scholar's getting very mixed up in that period. Well, you've done some absolutely phenomenal research to put this exhibition together and not all discoveries are what one would hope for I suppose but you've achieved so much and I think you've made an absolutely spectacular show here and I think and thank you to everyone who's joined us this evening and I just want to get finished really by thanking you thanking the makers of the film and the other curators who contributed to it and inviting everybody to come and see the show at the British Library. It's on until the 2nd of October. See you here, see you at the BL and until then, good evening. Good evening.