 Well today we are joined with Kimberly Cook the author of motherhood redeemed which is published by tan books and We are here to talk about that book amongst other things like feminism Kimberly, it's it's a pleasure to pleasure to meet you Absolutely, so we were talking a little bit before the show and we should have started recording right there because you were It was just so fascinating on the things that you were saying I I read read the book And like I told you before I'm probably the least qualified person to talk to anyone on on Feminism because I'm really ignorant on all that stuff and within the book a lot of it It was beautifully written because you're tying a lot of the history You're calling out the key players and you're weaving in your your personal conversion story And I had I was you know reading it and then I had my phone with me And I was just like taking notes and I literally We're not gonna go through all of these but there's like 26 lines of notes. I was taking on it And I was hoping to grill you a little bit on on some of them But you know just with the first one well actually maybe just start off I just telling us a little bit about yourself kind of you know what what you you know, you're more than an author you do podcasts and Blog and you were just on Catholic answers like you were saying so just tell us a little bit about about yourself So obviously the story tells about my conversion starting out loosely raised Catholic and then getting into the feminist punk scene in My teens and early 20s and then how I converted back to the Catholic faith or really truly to the Catholic faith and then Basically after that, you know, I had a long journey in the church You know coming to fully understand the church and studying theology You know, I got my masters eventually in systematic theology and I started writing and I eventually got married And we have four kids now so I you know the last ten years really of just being married and Having children and going through that journey But then as well being able to have a podcast and being able to write different articles for publications and then Writing a few books along the way and journals and now being able to write this book for tan has really been exciting because As I've written different things. I've given bits and pieces of my testimony but nothing as concise as I have in motherhood redeemed and Just being able to put that together and being able to educate people in the fullness of you know The good and the bad of what's come out of feminism in the United States and the history of that has just been Something that's been on my heart for many many years probably before I even had kids and it's just exciting to be able to now Put it all together. So that's kind of where I am now I feel like I'm living the best of both worlds with being able to do you know writing which I love and podcasting being able to talk to some incredible people who are really influencing our culture for good and then also being able to write and And share my story while I'm also raising my children and being able to teach them as well So that's yeah, it's just a good place to be right now. Yeah, well, you know So like I was mentioning, I don't know a ton about feminism before I read the book But a lot of it it was it was really cool because you it was it was a lot of history on Kind of how this came about you had to keep a lot of key players some of them. I'd never heard of And then you're weaving in like you're mentioning your your conversion story. So part of this or maybe a lot of it is this going to be on the Just educating me on on feminism Yeah, that's what I wanted to do with this book is Answer from a very historical Perspective on feminism and I wanted to give it from a non-bias lens Obviously I tie it all together in the end from the Catholic perspective and church teaching and how the church responds to feminists to eugenics To a number of these different concepts that I talked about throughout the book Obviously abortion and reproductive rights and things like that But I wanted the reader to actually hear from the mouth of a lot of these women because I feel like we can read opinion pieces all day long on Anything but especially feminism, you know, you can really Find what you want to find to make it be for or against your Perspective or your point of view, you know, whatever you want to argue just like the Bible We can kind of find opinion pieces to support absolutely anything we want to argue for or against the truth But I wanted this to be something where people could pick it up Even people that are maybe opposed to the church, you know feminists that do feel like they're radical But and they'd be able to see the truth in it that these quotes that these You know resources that I'm using are directly from the mouths of these women throughout history And then I'm really just telling it like it is and allowing you to form your Opinion on it in your perspective from from the point of truth even especially like with Margaret Sanger She's somebody that I feel like people either sanctify or demonize There's kind of no middle of the road And I felt like I didn't really know who Margaret Sanger really was or how Planned Parenthood really started because I've either heard This elevation of her as you know, the best woman who's brought us this reproductive freedom or On the pro-life side of things this demon racist who wanted all babies to die Kind of a thing and I really wanted to just know the truth the good and the bad and the ugly of Who Margaret Sanger really was and just to let her words speak for herself And let people have that perspective on her so I worked through that With all the feminists throughout the book and you know tried to set up just the truth because I think so many people are uneducated on the truth of feminism So that's really where I came from and I think people do appreciate all million of my foot I felt like it's literally But I felt like you know, it's I try to make it so airtight so that if there's anything that you want to challenge None of this is my opinion. You know, this is all from what these women actually said throughout history These are all movements that actually took place and events that actually took place and then in the end of the book I weave it together with of course the Catholic response and my Response and things like that, but I wanted two-thirds of the book to be that Historical truth speaking for itself. Yeah. Yep, and there was Again, it was it was just eye-opening to me because I didn't like I've heard of some of the key players and others I have not on Let's see, which one was it it was Yes, actually it was it was it was her I've never heard of her before and I was reading I was like I don't think I would like this this woman Yeah Before Roe v. Wade they kind of feel like before the 60s and 70s Movement, you know sexual revolution There were just some you know these back alley abortions and they were very far in between But then when you look at the 19th century, I mean, I would dare to say there are more abortions in the 19th century Then there are even today when we have these institutions like Planned Parenthood set up and other you know facilities that are doing abortions You know the the one thing so yes, so thanks for reminding because that's who I and I still can't find her in here But that that was the name But maybe what we could talk about is just Okay, so in the book you I can't remember if it was the first chapter or not But it's just defining feminism and coming on equal terms And I think you said something along the lines of you know There are as many definitions of feminism as there are feminists or something something along those lines That was actually a quote from Janet Smith that she had said and I just loved that so much because it's true Feminism is such a relative and fluid term It really should be put into the category of relative visit them because there is no set Definition of feminism it is defined by whoever is defining it and as a movement that doesn't really work You know, we contrast that with the Catholic Church and looking at our teaching body of the Catholic Church Looking at our catechism looking at the Magisterium looking at the Pope We have there's room for interpretation in small ways, but not in big ways There are certain definitions as Catholics that we can say this is what it means to be a Catholic This is what we believe if we are a Catholic and if you don't believe in the true presence of the Eucharist or You know the sacraments or things, you know the dogmas of the church Then you in essence are not really a Catholic and there's nothing like that in the feminist movement There's not even a cohesive Belief and as I said in the book you can reduce it to the basic equal rights for women, but even in that Equal rights means reproductive rights. It means abortion. It means contraception. It means now, you know non-binary gender and it means Not a set idea of the family as Mother father child it can mean any number of things even to the point now with adoption services Christian adoption services where we have three men or three women Adopting one child together and that's the family. So it's not even necessarily two parents anymore So that equal rights has gotten so Wide, you know the scope of what equal rights means especially on the feminist platform And of course, there can be people that dissent and say well, I'm a pro-life pro family feminist But in essence you have to say that definition that I am a feminist But I dissent from the feminist platform. So that's like saying I'm a pro-choice Catholic, you know I'm Catholic, but I dissent from the main platform that Catholics are which is of course upholding the sanctity of Human life. Yeah, as well with equal rights for women I said the next biggest problem in that very small statement is the women Because we don't even know what women are anymore And if you look at the feminist platform again, the modern platform Embraces women meaning you could have been biologically born a man But you now identify or call yourself a woman and you are also a woman, you know As far as the feminist platform and the progressive platform goes you don't necessarily have to be Biological to be a woman, you know, you don't have to share the female biology to be considered a woman So again, the feminist platform has gotten so Relativistic with what they're talking about that there is no set definition if you say equal rights for women You're not talking about equal rights in the workplace as far as equal pay or equal job opportunities or equal raises or equal marital rights or things like that equal rights Encompasses so much more than those things that the original feminists were fighting for it really has taken much more of a social Turn and not so much as a work, you know just looking at the workforce and the family life and The right to vote or things like that is taken a much more social turn Yeah, so like when I when it just seems like when I hear the word this is again Just me being ignorant, but when someone says I'm a feminist I initially have Like this negative connotation, but if but the term like femininity I think of our blessed mother of Mary and I and what you have an entire chapter on the book on on our lady So just again, I don't know why but it's just like feminism just to me. It's just it It seems to have this negative connotation at least personally to me, but femininity is something that is like Absolutely, it's beautiful because I think of our lady who was a perfect beautiful woman So I don't know just that's just kind of my little thing there, but Because feminism is a movement that was created and we see the development of it and the cleaning of the term and the real Formation of that movement in the early 20th century, but femininity was not created by man It was created by God and it is as we see in our lady She is just this prototype of what a woman should be and She embodies all the best of women's virtue of feminine virtue And so when we hear femininity that is something that was created by God whereas feminism was a movement that was created by Women and it was created to in a lot of ways dissent from the teachings of The church and you know the it was a lot of confusion There were reasons as I go into with the book there were so many reasons for women to fight and activate of course They should have the right to their children, you know, if anything happens in marriage or the right to Vote or you know, there were many things that were wrong in society where women were not being treated as equal citizens in this country Even their dignity and work and value as a human person was not being Respected in this country. And so of course there were good reasons for women To want to fight for equality just as any other human being in this country should fight for equality if they're being disenfranchised And we see that with civil rights movements throughout, you know, our history and there were So it really there are certain things that came from a good cause In the women's rights movement, but then we see that this was also and there's not a point in time This is what I wanted to drive home It's not that it was all good and everything in the 19th century was positive and The women's rights movement was totally solid with all good reasons and then all of a sudden it hit You know the 60s and 70s and it was hijacked and everything went south But I wanted to show that that is not the case We can't say that feminism started out in this positive way and then all of a sudden it, you know Took a wrong turn when it embraced some of these more progressive ideas as I show in the 19th century again abortion was prevalent and People were using abortion not just poor women, but the wealthy well-known, you know, New York families We're using it as a way to cover up, you know, rapes or Out of wedlock pregnancies or just married women among the wealthy who are using it as a way to space out children Or just to avoid constant, you know, childbearing one after the other So this was just a version was almost normalized at a point in time in the 19th century So what I wanted to show was it wasn't all good back then either. There wasn't a positive Feminism a pure feminism that started out with just fighting for the dignity for women and then all of a sudden it changed It was always mixed as it is today with good and bad intent and so Ultimately you have to look at the leaders of the platform, you know, then And now and see, okay, what has this stood on what has feminism stood on and we see even in the early 20th century when it was coined we see Margaret Sanger and Simone de Beauvoir and Bet they freed and all of these women were promoting contraception and some even abortion and voluntary motherhood and You know getting out of the household no longer being housewives or stay-at-home moms We need to get into the workforce full-time. We've got to have our children raised by the state and so on and on But a lot of people think that this didn't start until the 60s and 70s This was all the way at the turn of the century and then of course even into the 19th century We had a lot of the roots of this so that's what I wanted to show like you said there is a difference between feminism which is this movement and then femininity which of course women I think sometimes are frustrated by because they feel like they have to act really dainty or They can't play sports or they have to wear pink frilly dresses or do ballet and as I show in the book as well That's not necessarily what femininity is. It's something that's deeper. It's in our soul It doesn't mean that you can't be a good soccer player or not like to wear dresses or any of those things those Outward things aren't what defines us as feminine. It's something that that's in our soul You know a feminine soul and a feminine nature and each woman is individual in the way that that shows itself You know, I think it was earlier on in the book where And I was you painted like a really good picture of you were a kid a lot of your friends were boys You have one older brother and I think The your friends in the neighborhood were wanting to play a baseball game, right? And then there was some other I guess older it sounded like it was like older friends and You were just describing that that was the first time that you actually If I'm putting words your mouth just correct me But it sounded like that was like the first time that you you I don't know how old you are me like seven but The first time that you found out or figured out that how there is like a difference here It was that those older boys were essentially making fun of you Saying that ah, she's not gonna be able to hit the ball or this or that and then it sounded like you cranked the home run I don't know if that was embellished a little bit, but Maybe what maybe it wasn't because then at that at that point they were fighting on you know that they wanted you on their team So I thought that that was just a really cool a really cool story So I was rooting for you as you were going up the bat. I think you're a little nervous but I always you know same kind of thing with the tomboy stuff and it wasn't until We were you know our group. I was just part of them I don't know if they even looked at me like a girl, you know Back then you don't carry there. You're just you know one of the team But then when the other boys were like hey, you know There's a girl on your team and they to them that wasn't even an issue But I realized how big of a deal that was at that point in time that okay for the first time I realized wow, there's all boys on their team and there's all boys on our team And I'm the only girl and it was kind of the first time that I had that realization that you know Something here is not like the others. Yeah, and there was one and you to his credit. He was like a a A Knight coming to your defense There was you know the best person that could essentially talk smack to the other team was sticking up for you saying oh just just wait You know, she's just just watch this. So I I was kind of cheering for him, too I like I don't know who that person was but I did like him but kind of getting into your your You know sort of your your conversion or reversion story That was what was really cool because you're weaving in a lot of the history and then you're weaving in your your path along the way So some people might not know this but you're all female punk band It sounded like you were touring the world a lot of the or some of the members of the band Didn't you know, it sounded like they got into some some trouble after the the band broke up But can you talk a little bit about just like even like what music played a part? I mean you said that you were listening to grunge and and just you know all that stuff So how did music play a part in in your influence? During your formative years Absolutely, I would say music played a very big role. I was a musician So I played guitar and as it was so I was already very Into music. I listened to a lot of music and like you mentioned I was very into the grunge punk kind of scene and I loved all that kind of depressing music where there's this undertones of hopelessness and despair and for some reason that was so popular and You know, of course it was on all the radio stations, too It wasn't just like I had to try hard to seek out these CVs. I mean these were the you know, chart top at the time so That was really what I gravitated to and listened to and of course mixed that with like teenage angst and depression and everything And coming of age is just not a good combination for anyone as we see the way that you know These lead singers of Nirvana and others ended up, you know committing suicide. It's Really not hard to connect the dots when you listen to the music and see their lifestyle and everything and a lot of teens were idolizing that lifestyle and wow, he went out with such a blaze of glory You know, I mean, it's really sick the way that we idolized these rock stars and people still do You know, but you get to the feminist punk movement, which was called the riot girl movement And what that was was a wave of feminism that Really Incorporated punk rock because that was what was popular. That was what was resonating with people so you put that music on to the you know, the politics and the You know feminist movement dialogue basically the selling points and that became something that just lit a fire for me and also as I was introduced to a few other girls that were into the feminist movement as well They were starting to get into that music and they were starting to get into the feminist movement starting to read all of these feminist literature and So we decided to form a band and we started basically writing our own lyrics along the same kind of you know guidelines and Started regurgitating the same kind of stuff, which is how a lot of these movements go, you know, you just kind of hear it what you hear You get angry by the things that you read and the things that you hear from other people your own style and then you Regurgitate that to other people and then they get on fire for that You know, it's the same way as we think with Christianity, of course in the opposite direction We see, you know St. Paul before conversion kind of thing preaching with that fire against Christians And then of course he used that same fire to preach You know for the faith when he had his dramatic So I would say I look at my conversion a lot like that Pauline conversion at first I had this fire for feminism and for women and for the way that they were mistreated and neglected and pushed under the rug throughout society for so many centuries and we had to rise up in this anger and um And then I had to keep you know get that message out to other people So our bands started touring and you know, we had a cv. We started touring United States and then we toured a little bit of Europe and you know, so that was kind of how it was but as you talk about um there was a lot of loss of People along the way we lost a lot of people either to A lot of drugs, you know And then we knew a lot of other people who committed suicide Or had drug overdoses. Um, so there was even a lot of death and um, just in our closed circle there was a lot of heavy drug addictions And um, and we went through several people in the band throughout the years because of drug addictions or ending up in mental institutions for Attemptive suicide or cell farm or things like that. So that just became normal almost to Have, you know a new person almost every year because of that Yeah Well, you know, there's a saying that the the devil eats his own tail So it sounds like if I was satan, I would attack the family and the church which are essentially one and the same I would go after the family as the the building block of society and the The shepherds of the church As the protectors of their flock and It's no wonder that satan has at least in my mind. I mean he is he is Trying his best to destroy The family which includes masculinity like uh and feminine femininity they he This he perverts it so much Um, and I just I I can't stand it I mean, I I know a lot of people can't stand it, but you know, you even talked about um, it was Lilith Which is like remember Lilith fair. I mean that was a an actual Like a concert venue Um, or not venue, but it was a concert and I think it was uh, it was a Jezebel, but they were like I forget there was another Name for enough Who was it? Okay Yeah, so sound it it almost sounded like you know, these two or these three demons are just having Uh, a direct assault like their main mission is is to destroy The family or maybe ones to destroy masculinity ones that destroy femininity um, but you know it it He perverts something that is feminine, you know, and I just Um, you know, that's another reason why I think that this book is is is good Is is that you you Are showing what true femininity is which is in our blessed mother um But so anyway, sorry that was a little bit of a tangent. So just kind of going back to Your your story here, um What about is it charlie or charles you met so I think it was someone that you were introduced to And it was so cool because I think he either you invited him or he wanted to go To a venue where it was probably a lot of hostile a lot of hostiles in the audience that were just trying to trap him and Sounded like he he didn't lose composure. But just can you just talk about you know, this person and How he helped you back onto the path of the church Right. Well, my boyfriend at the time who was agnostic atheists Started working at a graphic design firm run by a catholic italian family And they were very strong into their faith and the um The head of the company charles, you know, he had all his sons working for him and everything And he really knew his faith very well and was very involved in the church And so my boyfriend knew that I was on this quest for the truth And I was kind of looking into all religions eastern religions western religions everything And he said, you know, you really have to talk to my boss because he always talks about the faith he's so on fire and You know, I just think that you would like to talk to him because you want to talk to everyone about religion all the time And I said, yeah, but he's catholic, you know, I've already been there done that, you know, that's kind of checked off the list I'm looking for other religions and you say, yeah, but he you know, he's just really Kind of cool and I think you'd like him and so I was like, okay And I had this pretentious like pharisaical attitude like I was going to go in there and have to Tell him why the catholic church wasn't it, you know And and I was going to kind of be able to debate him as I had done to so many other Catholics that didn't know their faith and I was able to kind of win this battle And I thought it'd be really easy and I didn't really want to waste my time But he convinced me to go Talk to him and that was a real turning point for me. He Had so many gifts of the holy spirit. He knew his faith so well and he was really not at all judgmental of me so when I went in there with pink hair and You know all this black eyeliner and you know black clothes and everything Doc martin spray paint and purple and stuff most people, you know Adults and everything would give you this look like who is this and you know, who's this punk coming in here And he just looked at me as if I could have been wearing like a flower sundress or something like that and he had He was not fazed at all By my like tough exterior and then as we started talking It was like for the first time someone could answer every single question I have Well, why does the church do this? Well, why would the church think this and the church can't really love people if they Don't allow this or don't accept these people and for the first time Someone had an answer to absolutely everything. Why do you have to go to a priest for compassion? Why the blessed mother? you know everything that People are used to getting thrown at them and a lot of Catholics sadly can't answer They just don't know they just do it because they do it and that's how I was raised We just do it because we do it there was no answer and I needed an answer and um If there was no answer to any of those questions, then it obviously was an idolatrous faith and there nobody should be Part of it and I needed to tell people that so for the first time this person could answer everything and Not only that but he had this incredible love and this just welcoming, you know, italian hospitality and He was able to tell me Something that I don't know why at that moment in time it hit me But he told me how much God loved me and like I say in the book I'm sure people have said that before and I'm sure I rolled my eyes and laughed at them and thought they were really cheesy but for some reason after our conversation and after he had this kind of personal encounter with me and the way that he just kind of took me in so lovingly And answered all my questions and put up with all of my challenges and my attitude And then to be able to tell me at the end of all of that How much I was loved and you know what a beautiful person I was and you know my soul and everything and All of this stuff was for the first time it got through You know, I was unguarded and it got straight through to my heart And it really crashed all those walls down and I found myself just sobbing there And so what he did was he actually he Part of this community center where they would have prayer meetings Down the road from the church And he you know invited me to bring any of my friends to come to this Community center and we would just talk it out. You know, we they could ask him absolutely anything And so I invited people and people showed up and like I said, you know mohawks and all and Yeah, I thought he would just run out of there screaming and he just sat there and Some other people ran out screaming and cussing and everything because they were bad or whatever But he just was able to sit there and just take everyone's fire and just answer it so calmly Unchalantly with this loving smile and he just loved everyone there and Telling them how great they all were and what good people they were and none of them None of us were used to hearing that kind of stuff, you know So it was kind of like this hate you wanted to hate what he had to say and you wanted to hate him But there was no possible way to do that You know, you just you just couldn't stop thinking about what he said and you couldn't stop that feeling like Why did he say I was loved? You know, why did he say that this lord of the universe loves me or thinks about me It was something that you couldn't get out of your Mind after it was said and you couldn't stop thinking about it. So he really had a true gift of evangelization Yeah, it sounds like I mean he sounds very You know as you were describing him joyful And I think that that that true joy comes out of a probably a lot of prayer and understanding Right the the lord of the universe who doesn't need us but made us out of just sheer love That he loves he loves us and and and it sounds like he got that And it's just it's a natural response to just love someone back I mean, it's it's actually hard not to love someone back unless your heart is or your heart is so hardened And the other thing is it sounds like he had meekness, right? So that's that's power under control and he was very well Controlled within that environment, which is a strength and people can see that strength and that's attractive All these virtues are so I think in our hearts. We're attracted to that because they they reflect Who god is? So I loved reading that You know, the other thing is it It's so easy to get depressed and angered, especially looking at society or what's going on But he didn't he had he had that joy and you know So there was there's a lot that maybe I could that I can learn from from that, but it was just a really cool story So I just wanted to call that out You know, there's different phases than what I was into maybe they don't have like Pink hair and mohawks or whatever, you know, we were into back then But maybe they have like this totally different trend and I'm like, uh, and then I'm like, hold on. That's me You know, like that was me So I think it does help because it's easy then to have this reverse Look on other people who are not in the faith or you know, I've fallen away Or are you know embracing some of this radical stuff? So for me, I always have to think about whoa, you know, think about this like this is You looking at your teenage self in the mirror or something and you don't know What is going to change in this person's life or who is going to, you know, have that impact on them And it could be you, you know, so So I think I always have to bring that to mind now because it's easy Once you're on kind of the other side of the truth To then look at other people with a judgmental perspective It totally is and I think it's an obligation once we have seen that or experienced that to Not fall into that that trap that others fall into It so and as you were talking, I mean even how it applies to feminists, right? So like as I was mentioning before with that negative connotation I mean, it's not even like irritation. There is something that I just it is Like violent like I just it is but I was actually trying it was somewhere and I think it was in chapter one What is it? Oh, it's actually the first Sentence so at the heart of feminism is an authentic quest for the true nature of womanhood So I think that that ties a little bit into what you were just saying which You know, you're trying to see what are the feminists truly after? And they're they're just looking at it as just they're it's very misguided But to show compassion and and especially if you have the truth and know the truth It's an obligation for you to to lead someone to Jesus So just looking at maybe at that lens that can hopefully help Show at least internally you show compassion to other people Instead of just judging them down because that's that's not going to help and and that's not being christlike either Um, so we're I mean we're created Love and we're created to give ourselves as self gift to others as john paul the second talked about so much and Obviously when we see movements like feminism at the very very root of some of these although they've gotten so out of form from what maybe that root cause was but there is a aspect of love or wanting good for others But then it becomes so distorted, which is what we've seen now and it actually becomes selfish It becomes just a good for the self you lose the selfless and um, that's what we see as I talk about so much in my book is this Turning against maternity and not just physical maternity Not just not wanting to have kids because they're a burden Or they'll get in the way of your career or your social life or whatever else But also even just spiritual maternity not wanting to be that embrace that womanhood That john paul the second talked about that women were Created to usher in new life to give life and that doesn't only have to be physical When we look at religious sisters when we look at mother Teresa These are certainly people that ushered in new life all the time that brought unity to the human family that had that feminine virtue and um This is something that feminism is at odds with they really are for self autonomy and defining their own Self and creating their own self in their own happiness And that is a part from any Moral virtue or any moral constructions upon them And so you do see this difference with feminism It does become selfish As opposed to just what the catholic church teaches of feminine virtue, which is self gift to others and embracing our virtues of maternity our virtues of femininity and that selflessness For others which is the same that Masculinity is for men and the same that masculinity is called to be that self gift On the opposite side. We're all called to that Selflessness and so regardless of what is at the root of some of these movements They become so distorted and disordered in a lot of ways as we were talking about before the show Mary Spirit as Carrie grass put it That is trying to distort what may in essence in our hearts be a good intent right Yep, and and part of that. I mean, so there's a few forces at play. I mean one is just a malformed conscience Right. So like if you just truly Whether you know if you just don't know that this is um, if you're not grounded and have a solid conscience Then I think it's really easy to be To still have that desire, but to completely aim at the wrong target And then it turns in on itself evil always turns in on itself That's why the devil will eat his own tail. It's it it's annihilation. I mean it's it's so destructive Um, then the other part is just family upbringing, you know the important So who is leading you to to to virtue? It's the domestic church. It's the the husband Or the father and and the mother and so a lot of these people with, you know, broken homes I mean, they don't have either a good masculine example or they don't have a good, you know, uh feminine example And so they're they're delta a tough hand um So there's a lot that And thank god that we're not the judge god is a perfect judge and he takes all these factors into consideration Um, but just kind of going back to that earlier what we're talking about It's easy for us to just look at someone and then just all of a sudden just judge You know, and I know that people know not to judge their heart, but it's an easy trap even for for catholics or christians to to do that, um so Uh, yeah, so maybe just a couple more questions because I I know that, you know, we're running a little little low on time um, but you know Why do you think this book is is relevant to today? as we see today the feminist movement is leading a lot of the social movements in the united states of america And we hear constantly this need for women to rise up. We've seen so many different movements through the past, um You know, I'd say 10 to 20 years that have been progressive female movements and I think that even young girls, you know in public schools, but even, you know, through media It seems like there is this real target on young women to be more progressive And I don't think that that's a new concept. I think that that's something that we can trace back to every generation This need in little ways to make women more progressive and You saw in the sexual revolution age from the 60s to the 80s there was this chipping away at virtue, especially when it comes to sexuality It was this idea that you didn't have to follow traditional values anymore That sex inside of marriage was archaic This was something that was causing Unhappiness in marriage because people didn't know if they were physically capable You know if they didn't find out before marriage and There were so many things that were blamed on Not being promiscuous or open before marriage. And so or even The need to get married at all to have a you know, sexually fulfilling life So all of those things started to chip away during the sexual revolution But then even from the 80s on we've seen a slow slide with Planned Parenthood getting into schools and taking over all of the reproductive health classes and sex ed and everything else like that and teaching That abortion is normal that gender is just a way that you feel. There's nothing necessarily Biological about gender. Of course, you have this sex that you know, these they're just body parts that you were born with But your gender is so much bigger than that. It's it's the way that you feel so All of these concepts have kind of rolled out slowly and they're being Embraced more and more that the family is fluid, you know, the family concept is fluid And you know, it's normal to have non-binary genders and now we see on all of our forums male Female or non-binary. So our kids are growing up with that idea that there's more genders than just male and female There's many genders maybe and there's many options for family units and This concept that women need to more and more be independent And I think ultimately looking back to what John Paul II again talked about and that was The need to fight against the separation of the family, you know He really fought against communism and with that the separation of the family And I think that that is what you said the devil is constantly trying to separate the family He wants Women and men to be in the workforce to spend less time together as husband and wife To spend less time with their own children raising their own children So as much as we can get the family divided as much as we can get women working full time men working full time And children being raised in state institutions That's kind of the best possible scenario for the devil in our country And I think we see that more and more With our society making it harder for women to stay home either financially And also, you know socially making it uncomfortable for women to choose that So in so many ways, I think that there is a need to put out the truth on this matter And you can see that women eat it up because it is the truth and they're starving for it and When you read this, I don't think it's being talked about enough from a Again for like just a truth and that's what I kind of want to just in your face truth Perspective and not something where it sounds like you're getting preached at because I was thinking What would I have picked up when I was a teen or early 20s or whatever if I would have picked up this book What would have completely turned me off and that was I didn't want to come out being preachy like feminism's bad because it hates men And you know, I didn't want to come out with that kind of attitude. I wanted to say, okay, let's look at this Let's just examine this. Let's pull apart the onion. Let's go back in history Let's take a look at the layers of this Let's see the dates the time periods the Poets that were said the things that were done the ideas behind it, you know Susan the Anthony and Elizabeth Katie Stanton in the 19th century look at them Losing their faith throughout the movement. Not only did they lose their faith, you know in the end they ended up to both be agnostic and to say that we can't really Give much credence to the life to come because we don't know if it will or will not happen Or really we don't know much about it and why waste our time on that So that's where they ended up as far as faith goes, you know, and then also they were willing to sacrifice Their minority sisters in the movement because they had an opportunity for advancement You know to for white women to gain the vote So again, you look at these ethics and these morals and this faith decaying Throughout their journey. So I wanted to show yes, you know We look at Susan the Anthony and a lot of people champion her and yes She's the one who brought the vote in so many ways and brought so many other movements that are good But we can't look at this as a one-sided coin And so that's what I wanted to do is say we need to look at it all I'm not trying to just give you the bad and say that all feminists are the devil, you know But in order for you to make a rational and good decision, you need to see the full truth Yep, that's awesome and it very very objective I mean as as you mentioned, you had a lot of footnotes. So you're not just making this stuff up I mean and it was it was very educational Yeah, no, I really liked your your approach to it again I didn't really know much about any of this until I was reading the book Um, but uh, yeah, I can't believe it's been a pleasure and and and you know, I think everyone Should go read this book. I mean it is it not only are you a good author? And I was not given that gift. I'm a consumer of good writing, but I I can't write real well, but Just did a great job weaving in your personal story to the history of feminism And it's an important book like we were discussing. I mean the family is under attack which includes both man and woman So it is very relatable to society and and this education needs to needs to happen so we can fight back against it But any closing thoughts kimberleague before we before we part Yeah, I would just say for people to You know dive in and not be afraid to stand up for the truth I know it's very hard, especially like you've said a few times, you know that you didn't know that much about Feminism and you didn't feel very strong in maybe speaking to others who would consider themselves You know, maybe that was something that you felt like I should bow out of this conversation because I'm not equipped to Challenge this and I don't know all the ins and outs and that's basically what I wanted to give Catholics was a Playbook, you know to know the truth and to have this good rounded version of what's happened in our history And kind of like the cliff notes of the history of feminism and I think even looking back when I was in the movement I didn't know a lot of this stuff either I was not properly educated on the history of You know the good and the bad of all of this I just saw what I wanted to see and I read what I wanted to read And I think this makes it possible for you and others to say I can have this argument You know, I can kind of hold my own I know the basis of this or to even be able to challenge feminists and say do you know that Susan me anthony or a rizwith kitty sitter have you heard of madame rastelle? Do you know that abortion was very prevalent in the 19th century to be able to have those conversations and to hold your own And probably educate someone who calls themselves a feminist on the real truth. I think that that is Priceless and I think that is something that's necessary. And so That is why I you know, I just want to encourage people Upon reading this to not be afraid to have those conversations. Don't shy away from it and do it like charles charles did Yeah, well, yeah, thanks again kimberley and uh, it was a pleasure speaking with you. Um, you as well. Thank you so much. Absolutely