 Hello and a very warm welcome to the Deutsche Welle World Economic Forum debate coming to you this time from Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia. Now, Indonesia is a country which spans some 17,000 islands and just six months ago a new government was sworn in here. Economically speaking, East Asia remains the fastest growing region in the world in a world which is still recovering from the global financial crisis. Many argue that the underlying factor behind every financial crisis is one thing, the absence of trust. Can we afford to live in a world where there is no trust in the way business is done? Our proposition today is trust or bust. How can trust be strengthened at the intersection of business and society? To discuss this, I have a wonderful panel for you. Let me introduce you to them starting with Atul Singh. Atul Singh is the group president of Asia Pacific of the Coca-Cola company, the world's largest soft drinks maker. Frankie Osman Vijaya, chairman and CEO of Sinarmas Agribusiness and Food, one of Indonesia's largest conglomerates. Suzie Pugestuti is an aviation tycoon, an entrepreneur, an activist, a school dropout, but above all, a minister of maritime affairs and fisheries and a very popular minister at that, from what I've heard. Then we have Iqbal Syed, who is chairman of the Indonesian Trade Union Confederation, Confrontational, Combative and Charismatic, a voice in Indonesia's labor movement. And finally, Mark Vizio, president and CEO of PactUSA, a non-governmental organization for development. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in giving a warm welcome to our panel. Atul, let me start with you. You come from a big corporate company. Yes. You've done extremely well wherever you work, be it in China or India, and in India you had 22 consecutive quarters of growth. Why should you care about trust at all? I mean, you're making the profits that you need to make. Well, you know, trust is the very basic foundation without which I believe business is not going to thrive. I've been fortunate working for the Coca-Cola company that operates in over 200 countries and we've been around for over 128 years. And brands to us mean a lot with, of course, brand Coca-Cola as a leading brand. Brand is a promise and a great brand is a promise kept. And without trust, consumers are not going to buy a brand that they consume. So we believe that it's at the absolute fundamental to doing business. We'll come back to that. Atul, we'll talk more about the brand, but Frankie, you're also the head of a large empire. Surely it's the dollar which is driving your business and not some kind of nebulous concept of trust? Well, I think it's quite fortunate that my father established the Sinai Mass Group, which is already about 76 years, 77 years coming, and he said trust is more important than his life. So it's built in our DNA actually as a corporate. And I think this is very fortunate that we built everything based on trust. And I can give you an example that especially in our agribusiness which we developed already about 300 schools, more than 300 schools, 40,000 students and about 150 clinics surrounding so that we really give a lot of interaction with the community so that wherever we operate they really appreciate our presence. That trust building is also important to interact. In Indonesia they said, the kenaal, the desayang. So we need to communicate our philosophy and sincerely what we try to do with them and really benefit the society. Iqbal, let me turn to you. Now you've often been in confrontation with companies. You brought this city Jakarta to a standstill with your strikes. Do you believe business leaders when they tell you trust is a part of my DNA, trust is a part of our core principle of our business? Yeah, of course. Yeah, we need the investment come to Indonesia. We need a lot of employers come to Indonesia. But the other side, we need welfare. We need the increasing purchasing power, not only increasing the economic growth. Like Indonesia and developing countries in the world, a lot of developing countries make increasing economic growth. But the other side, they have the increasing genie index also. It means we have a lot of gap, the income for the people, including for the labor. And it means economic growth only benefit for middle-up class, not middle-low, including labor. For example, in Indonesia and developing country, we still have the low wages policies. So we trust employer and investor come to our countries. But the other side, we need welfare and increasing minimum wage. This is my opinion. So you're saying that you're not against investments, but you want the investments to focus more on improving which is a lot of the workers in Indonesia. Yes, of course. The increasing economic growth. So the other side, government should reduce the genie index. This is very fair. When employer getting some profit, so they should be redistributing the income. We don't need the low wages policy. We need the equal income salary. We'll go to that in larger detail, but I want to first get a voice from the government. Now, Suzy, you are now in the government, there's very low trust levels of CEOs. But you're on the government and government leaders have even lower trust levels than CEOs. Do people trust you less now that you've joined the government of president in October? I think somehow in my, let's go back to what I had in my life. That's actually I starting from, drop out from my school and then up to now is all built on based on trust. That actually I've done my best as much as I can and being consistent and finally people give me a trust. So when I start with my fisheries businesses, I start my export because the Japanese give me a trust to give us a red close LC that we can export in the first time because it was almost impossible in 1996 on the crisis starting in Indonesia to have, to borrow money from the bank to be able to export. So my first export was basically based on a trust of one of my Japanese buyer who trust to give us 100% red close LC and we can deliver the product and then also later on up to the aviation because then the bank trust and we can grow up. This needs sometimes to build up and earn the trust from the society to the business person but by the time it takes me four years to get the first two aircraft from the money from the bank to be able to buy the two first aircraft. And then we had the tsunami service and then we continue with the airline business because people trust our flights. So you move from business to government, have you seen your trust levels drop since then? I don't see on that point. Is there a few things that we see in Indonesia especially with so much natural resources and Indonesia well known as number two largest coastal line in the world but in fact that our export of seafood still number five in Southeast Asia that's still a lot trust to be built to bring more investor to Indonesia to do and develop the good business from fisheries. I have to tell all of you here that in fact Susie has the highest approval rating of all ministers in Indonesia so obviously she still has not lost her trust value. Let me just draw in Mark at this level. Mark you work in development and you often implement projects for governments in different parts of the world as well as for foundations like Coca-Cola, 150 projects in 30 countries. How difficult is it for you to convince people that trust is a currency which is important for the greater good of society? Well I think it's a fascinating question. Trust is such an emotional personal thing and so how do you take something that's so intangible like that and somehow quantify it and make it tangible like a currency that in of itself is a challenge. Trust is I think hard to get and easy to lose and so I think that where it starts is it starts by the very essence of why there's an engagement. It's no different than with individuals or families or communities it all comes from a genuine sincerity and if there's a genuineness of shared values, of shared intent, of a translation from stakeholders to joint shareholders of something then you have a good basis for that dialogue that can through transactions of fulfilling the promise be proof points of why we should have that trust. You see all of you have made a very strong commitment to making trust a core value in your business and your operations in your lifestyle but the statistics show that in fact just 20% of the general public believes what business leaders tell them and believe that business leaders take ethical and moral decisions and yet a survey by Ilman shows that 86% of the general public believe that it is possible for business to take decisions which are for the good of society at the same time they enhance profit so obviously there's a big gap between the perception of the general public about trust and what they believe can be done. Frankie let me start with you again on this issue. Now your company Sinarmas has had a rough time. You had a stage in 2009-2010 where various multinationals boycotted palm oil from your company Nestle and Yuri Lever then recently in 2013 you had another problem with smog and haze due to the burning of palm oil plantations yours is one of the companies which was singled out as being perhaps responsible. How do you deal with this drop in trust? How do you reorganize your value chain to make sure that the trust comes back from the people? Well it's a very good question and thank you for the question because this is the opportunity for us to really clarify and gain the trust back. Actually we have done a lot in the sense that for the policy which the government have given us we always try to do more than that for example zero burning policy. We have adopted that for the let's say the government say this year start and then we already started three years back and also non-peat planting actually the government already given us three meters that you could plant below three meters. So we have set with zero peat soil planting for the few years back. So these are the few things that we have done but I think we have not been communicating that enough so maybe this is a good platform to really communicate each initiative that we are doing and actually I'm also very fortunate to co-chair the PISA agro so-called partnership for Indonesia Sustainable Agriculture so how can we also help not only just ourselves but the industry itself the palm oil industry and other crops to be sustainable and that platform really build trust together between the private public partnerships and how can we build that trust basically is to have the measurement the KPIs and really they feel that the sincere care is there and we have been successfully having about three years launching of the PISA agro and we have 86,000 farmers has been feeling that this platform has been helping them in terms of the elevating their poverty line by increasing their yield and also certainly the productivity and the income. Atul, can you measure something like trust? You said trust was an important part of your company. Yeah sure we actually measure trust and corporate reputation which is another proxy for trust and I'm very pleased to announce that you know overall company like ours when you go around the world again 200 countries and we don't measure every country but most of the major ones we have a very high trust rating you know consumers you know we consumers consume over a couple of billion drinks per day and they vote with their wallet every day and this is across the board and they won't do that if they didn't trust the quality of our products. Consumers today buy from companies that they trust we believe in sustainability as core to a foundation of doing business this is not a CSR that we do on the side somewhere. Every aspect of our value chain whether it is farmers that we deal with in Africa and Asia other parts around the world we work with them we work with their yields we work with you know for example in India drip irrigation partnering with different different people within our value chain to make sure that we can help them sustain a good livelihood Igbal talked about employee employment and wages etc so you know we ensure that across the value chain we are supporting different stakeholders and more importantly communities in which we operate not only where our bottling plants are located but also communities where we sell our products you know working with we have a program in fact with PAC called the 5 by 20 we've made a global commitment of empowering 5 million women by the year 2020 that's just one example and all of this adds to trust but the point is that you're obviously selling the highest number of soft drinks in the world so you must be doing something right at Coca-Cola but at the same time I mean sales are falling and there's Coca-Cola is projected to lose some 2,000 employees this year and there's also been controversy about various projects which Coca-Cola has taken for example in Britain the anti-obesity project Coca-Cola wanted to set up some 70 parks fitness parks and that was there's a huge outcry amongst the public and amongst many experts that this is a disingenuous attempt to distract from the fact that Coca-Cola carries a lot of sugar so at the same time I think one has to be very careful about where the trust factor lies so obviously you're also facing some tough challenges oh sure there are issues there are challenges across the board you know you mentioned obesity that's one of them water we were at one point in time challenged on the water usage because you know we're in the water business and we were challenged on water but I'm very happy to say that in lots of countries around the world we actually put back more water into the ground than we use in our products and we've made a commitment that by the year 2020 will be water-neutral that means we will actually through rainwater harvesting check dams other innovative processes use less water put back more water into the ground than we take out obesity it's a complex issue it's about calories in versus calories out we want to be part of the solution we want to be able to work with you trust you to be part of the solution that is the bottom line here I think people don't trust you because they say that you are trying to use a branding technique you're trying to use a program to actually distract from the problem there are some people who say that absolutely and your Britain is one example there are a couple of others but by far and large when you look at the couple of hundred countries in which we operate we have what we call the Golden Triangle civil society government and corporates we are the facilitator that brings all together to find solutions what I won't be part of a solution we have an issue obesity is an issue you know now let's not debate as to how it's being caused let's find a solution and I think when you look at working with government working with NGOs civil society other companies we're finding solutions and creating trust and that is the currency creating trust now Suzy you are facing many challenges as well as I mentioned Indonesia comprises of some 17,000 islands the second largest coastline in the world and you are the minister for fisheries so you have a lot of challenges ahead of you how are you dealing in terms of policy tackling some of the issues that you're facing right now okay so the the biggest problem in in Indonesia that I'm facing when I was in my office that is the fact that Indonesian the second largest coastal line in the world but number five in Southeast Asia that's put very far gap which I have to bring them together in line why that's happened because Indonesians are natural resources basically fisheries had been taken so much by so many illegal fishing in Indonesia which then I was seeing it's almost impossible to handle it in a smoother way so what we do I issue the moratorium policy for the ex-foreign fishing vessel which indicating that many of them duplicating the license to fish in the waters so those early days we had about 1,300 fishing vessel that operate in our water but duplicate boat it's at least five to seven times some of them even ten times and that's what costs in the last 15 years 115 companies in around Java and few islands are collapsed they because they don't have raw material anymore had been taken away in the sea and that was also because we allowing transshipment in the sea to basically taking and exporting direct in the middle of the sea so no no no checkpoint harbor no nothing so the second policy that I made was the banning transshipment in the middle of the sea so everything has to be go to the port and checkpoint and we also indicating that had been so many inappropriate practices on those illegal fishing with slavery issues and many things and these will cost Indonesia but there's nobody want to invest anything in fisheries because it's no picture it is not a interesting picture that yes potential are there and actually we can be one of the most dominant and important player in in seafood businesses with our sources size yeah we have a lot big problem with illegal fishing and you took a very drastic measure to deal with illegal fishing recently we have to with seven thousand boat they are using our national fuel capacity and they're also taking fish from the from our waters not only fish frames and all other sourcing that we can we lose and now the result is that we are saving at least 25 percent of national fuel consumption and the second almost five to six million tons of fish basically can be so that's a popular measure to deal with illegal fishing is a popular measure with the fishing community in Indonesia but perhaps an unpopular measure for your neighboring countries who've been living off illegally of your fish we had a first I take step to invite all the ambassadors of the neighborhood that the fishermen are basically come around so we discussed the issues and we all agreed that illegal fishing is not only Indonesian problem but also many countries problem and an unappropriate and very unfriendly fishing method is also taken a place with a cost damage and destruction for the environments and all the excellency the ambassadors from all surrounding neighborhoods are also agreed that illegal fishing is not only Indonesian enemy is a global enemy so we come to the point that's yes because we the new government Chokowi and want to to put our future of the nation is in the ocean which is very realistic to see the size of of the sea is two-third of our country and we situated in in equatorial that's basically very very rich of fisheries sources and but the homework big homework is there and the only thing to when things are so bad and had been happened for many years yes you have to deal with them I think the important message I'm getting from you that they are often competing interests when it comes to trust mark you deal with so many different projects and organizations how does one create trust when they are competing interests involved what is good for one person may not be good for the other person as I told us they're doing a lot of work at community development yet you have some consumers who don't trust the company now what Susie has just told us good for one person but not for the other how do you reconcile these different interests in your projects that you well I think isn't that always the case there's never unanimity you know in families and communities and businesses and relationships between consumers and businesses or constituents and governments there's always going to be someone who's dissatisfied and that that's going to be the reality and so I'm not sure you can actually reconcile it holistically but I think what you can do is have seriousness and genuineness of intent not not to help out our poor friends at Coca-Cola but there's always going to be an issue with people thinking it sugar drinks are causing obesity or as Coca Cola refers to it often over nutrition which is an interesting way to put it but there's also actions that can demonstrate that intent of wanting to have everybody be whole to have this sincerity of interest of shared purpose and so Coca Cola's produced a whole set of lines of drinks that are zero calories or different ways to do it and so that plus being a water neutral company by 2020 when their single biggest ingredient is water you know it's mind-boggling so I think you know for for packed when we work with different companies there are some companies that we think it's not quite right for us to partner with and it's not because of what they do or what they don't do inherent in their business we all are users of whatever these folks produce it's about the intent behind it are they looking at people as stakeholders or shareholders are they trying to have an honest genuine dialogue about how you co-create and discover what's best for all real quickly I was on a panel talking about Nigeria with Rhonda Zagaki who's executive vice president Chevron and she mentioned just before we went on stage that that very week Chevron was celebrating the fact that they had been in Nigeria for 100 years and if you go into a community into a country with that as your mindset even before the hundred year starts you approach things differently and it's about the genuineness of shared purpose right well I want to ask you now you've been working a lot on improving the lot of workers in Indonesia and you've been focusing on things like minimum wage has been a very important issue for you the health scheme insurance pension for workers how confident are you with the new government here with president Joko Widodo that the workers is there an environment of trust where the workers needs will be addressed yeah yes we have concern about the some priority issue in labor first about the decent wages against the low wages policies and social security reform and against the precarious work or outsourcing and then against the union busting and etc so the new president the new government in Indonesia we cannot look looking forward and make the new regulation for better life for the laborers for example in this year's jokowi president had to sign about the government regulation pension system follow the law last year's in the November president already signed but until now president not yet signed for the pension system why you know we need the pension I don't know why not I don't know I think the now a cheetah program the names of the jokowi president he he called about the pension system and have insurance for the people but until now he doesn't sign the regulation of the pension system it means in July of this year's workers cannot getting the pension no implementation of the pension system in Indonesia it means labor side labor side jokowi don't care the labor issue and the other side you know I hope the governor of Jakarta already decided minimum wage approximately 2.7 million rupiah approximately 250 250 dollars very low if you compare the Thailand you compare the Philippines you compare the Malaysia but Indonesia economic growth have the number two in the world after Chinese GDP purchasing power parity number 15 last years and number 10 this year's Indonesia become the rich country number 10 GDP purchasing power parity but low wages policy still operate in Indonesia that's because they want to attract more investment is that your idea that they have a low wage policy as a selling Indonesia to get more investment yes I think yes but I want to ask you now you have often talked about taking the militant way in the labor movement having these massive strikes 1 million people on the streets you bring the city to a standstill and you've described that as a means to an end to improve the lives of workers but will that create trust will companies trust you if you bring things to a standstill yes because because we don't understand what do we do when government still interest and focus only in fight the lot of investment but the other set the government cannot implement it the rule the rule is already the law is already but cannot implement it like decent wages pension system health insurance labor still limited getting the health insurance a lot of people including labor come to the hospital abuse from the hospital this is problem a lot of outsourcing in the state on enterprise state on enterprise have the government but still use the outsourcing or precarious workers it is paradox yeah if you look the government policies jokowi policies paradox they want to increasing economic growth but the other set we have the paradox economic growth low wages increasing genie index limited social social protection and etc. Frankie how do we get out of this paradox now this is a problem which is not you it's universal it's just not limited to Indonesia where you have growth but that growth is unevenly distributed they can be no trust if there's uneven growth of the disparity between rich and poor keeps growing I certainly agree about this parity has to be bring to the closest as possible and to be fair to the jokowi's and jeka administration I think they're just six months so there's a lot of problems that that has to be to be what you call it prioritize certainly this is very important priority for the labor issues I think but I have a confidence that our government is doing the right things first of course because of the currency has been weakened because US dollar has been strengthened against all other currency and then the commodity prices came down quite substantially so the buying power has been reduced by 20 to 30 percent so that this may be one of the concentration in terms of the priority in how to make sure that we're coming out from this temporary slowdown so that everybody can gain from this economic growth I fully agree with Iqbal that we need to put more attention on that how to find the middle ground to make sure that when the company grow the the country grow the workers also feel the welfare will be taken care of so I think that is a very fair statement but we just have to be a little bit patient because as again the president has said we're just six months there's a lot of the bottlenecking that has to be done so that trust has to be developed among within Iqbal stakeholders and the government I might say in I mean this is a thing I see in this new government is a big actually how you call it they're very keen to change things and change is also word that is attract me to join to take the part of the government role and it is a lot of things that we have to change from from a different management perspective and also in the way that the economy had been growth so far I do agree with what Iqbal said that's the growth of the economy is not reflecting into the prosperity of them but the basically the lowest or the group of people that is the labor and really really the people in the villages but I think the government put already they they effort and they interest that they are of course we have to battle the first thing is the fuel subsidized that had been taking so much of the country money every year we almost spend 400 trillion this is about for 40 billion dollars into subsidizing fuel and I told you before that illegal fishing is using almost almost a quarter of the whole country fuel consumption so you see those subsidized had been misused and had been hard for the country and now without this this inefficiency in fuel subsidized we expecting that we can do better and we see we struggle with the with the with the budgeting month also since also and I see we cannot change that much either in this year of budgeting allocations because the budget that we are running and spending in this 2015 is basically designed by the government before with different priorities on things. Yeah because fuel subsidies as I've been reading is a very controversial issue in Indonesia let me just bring in Atul once again and turning away from Indonesian politics for a sense for a minute. Atul as we were talking about I mentioned those anti-obesity campaign just as an example of public trust now obviously Coca-Cola is doing a lot of other work which is trying to contribute back to society but to what extent is trust a competitive advantage for a corporate company like yours. Oh I think it's a huge competitive advantage if consumers trust you trust your quality trust your product trust the values that the brand the company stands for they actually vote with their wallet they buy your products you know AC Nielsen did a study over 30,000 consumers around the world and in fact it was interesting that study found that especially in Asia Pacific in Asia 64% of consumers were actually preferred to buy products from a company that they would trust and a company that would would work towards sustainability towards the environment towards social well-being and I think that's important 21st century companies have got to focus not only on you know the the the profit angle if you will but but also on a balanced scorecard I mean we have to be able to grow our businesses without growing the carbon footprint for example you have to grow our businesses with using less on on per unit of electricity if you use a regional variation in trust now you've worked in four continents and research shows that small and medium-sized companies run by families are trusted the world over apart from Asia so what are the regional variations you do you see that where trust is placed in well if people have a bad experience if you've had bad experience and in today's world with the internet with you know mobile technology something that goes wrong that that news spreads like wildfire I mean almost instantaneously you can get that news elsewhere so I think you know it's it's an evolving changing dynamics you know I wouldn't be able to comment it why people in in Asia trusts you know family businesses less than than others maybe there's been a bad experience that that people in communities have had with with certain companies exploiting communities for example but clearly the world over and we operate as I said the world over and we've found the many great companies around the world you know not just ours many great companies around the world if you contribute to society and if you give back to society you're gonna be around for a hundred years so whether it's a Chevron in Nigeria or Coca-Cola in the US or in other parts of the world if you contribute back to society and that is both for companies that are privately owned the great examples of privately owned on companies of entrepreneurs whom people trust a lot and there's several examples around the world so I would just say that you know trust it doesn't matter whether you're publicly owned privately owned multinational or limited in in a certain geography it all depends on the values that you live by but research has shown that actually geography does play a certain role in which companies are trusted the research has shown for example the BRICS countries India China Russia are less trusted companies from these countries and the country which is most trusted I'm pleased to report this is not my research is Germany followed by Switzerland Sweden and Canada and that's because they believe public perception again this is all public perception is that these countries pay more attention to looking after employees communities and the environment but that's by the by mark I want to ask you is there a trade-off when companies put trust at the core of their business is there a trade-off and if companies are not trustworthy can they go bust yeah I think so I think we have to be careful if you use putting trust at the core of your business as a methodology to gain greater sales it will be seen as disingenuous and backfire and so I think that it comes back to I'm sorry to be a broken record but you know what is the the intent of a shared values with folks that engage with you in a business transaction and if you're trying to manipulate your image PR or trying to be seen as trustworthy people will see through that and it's the same with people right it's no different sure there's geographic differences Edelman there's been a lot of research on trust and and and some of the the the data shows that that that it's true I think one of the things that can happen when you have had a bad experience I don't think that necessarily kills an opportunity for trust I think a bad experience admitted honestly openly and then rectified can actually ironically deepen trust and so it's all about that genuineness and so you can't fake trust is what you're saying you give it a really good try and I think it'll laugh it'll work for a long time but at the end of the day particularly in communities where there's not a lot of fungible resources where you know you're earning a dollar two dollars a day you lose trust very quickly if there's not authenticity you know that is it's a question of authenticity Susie I have to come back to you because from what I have heard and read about you it's not what you say it's what you do your life was transformed you wrote by your own admission during the 2004 tsunami what is the story there okay so I had to aircraft on those days still about the month and running my fisheries business taking the the life lobster and the fresh fish to Jakarta and then the tsunami happened we helped the people for two weeks that was only the plan but then people are keep the plane here I say I can't I don't have enough cast anymore to run free flight so then the trust from all the NGOs basically to charter our aircraft and there how we starting our our our charter business and then we get more and more and more so actually to business that I have starting by but business plans and helping the people of the tsunami in Indonesia was the worst affected country doing the tsunami and I believe that thing you write that sincerity and genuity are very important actually to gain the trust or to win the trust in the first place but for the long-run commitment that you you keep you you give share of what you earn back to the to the stakeholders or to your buyer or to your customer what coca-cola do basically giving back and incentive to the to the user of your product will always be your benefit back basically will benefit you back so what you do in the normal market it's will always it's always become go back to you and just starting from those two airplanes you now have more than 30 airplanes in your airline yet 50 aircraft no flying airlines called Susie air yes so I I always say to my Japanese buyer I put my name that's a life guarantee so for the quality that's to hold the trust I won't mess around because I can't change my name that's what I said thank you when Susie talks about honesty and sincerity and trust I mean most people simply don't associate this with a business right now you are associated with so many boardrooms you know so many directors you're associated with many companies is trust a boardroom agenda or is it just something that HR does and sounds good like diversity can one make that a boardroom agenda the concept of trust well I think the as I said it's very lucky that my father a catch up to Jaya has put that in the forefront of everything so he said trust is more important than his life then this become our guiding principle and has been embedded in the in our in our other companies are like your companies so basically all all the the group's company has been these are the basic things everybody has to understand this and we translate that into our action so in in all the business plan we always allocate certain it's not just CSR but more than that how we accompany the society the people on the ground to really benefit from what we have we're doing so to gain the trust is not it's not built in one day but it takes time so we've been around for more than certainly 80 years so I hope we gain some trust in that right thank you Frankie I mean obviously your company as you say is part of your DNA but I'm still kind of worried about the broader corporate aspect and the role of trust there Iqbal what do you feel you've listened to what everybody's saying you listen to the government voice you've listened to the corporate voices how do you feel are you optimistic about trust being at the center of labor relations you have to deal with trust with companies but there's also a lack of trust within and between different unions yeah we should be optimistic for the life because soul must be gone we cannot back the for the experience we did the future for example in Indonesia and their plopping country yeah we have paradox economic grouch yeah and we can look if you look in the employer side for example yeah in the Nike Adidas pay the tiger wood for the showing in the television five million dollars pay the labor for the salary per month approximately in Indonesia two thousand forty it is not fair so we need fairness we need fair trade not free trade only so it means is union side we need for requirement first mutual trust partnership equality transparency and accountability you can't getting a lot of profit but if you are ready getting profit please redistribute to the labor it is trust not doubt give the sum a salary decent wages and social protection so we need the mutual trust and equality mutual trust it can't be a one-way one-way trust okay there's no one here I think from Nike at the moment to respond to your your comments but maybe somebody from the audience will but before I ask the audience to join in I want to ask you mark a final question listening to what Iqbal had to say just now is there a disconnect about what we mean by trust a company means by trust delivering on time giving a good product like Coca-Cola but what Iqbal's talking about is fairness and ethics and you know underpinning business is there a fundamental disconnect about how we deal with this issue of trust yeah I think so I think that's part of the issue you know some of Edelman's research talks about what what industries think builds up trust and what then consumers think about build-up trust and you if you if you if as an industry you look at the quality of your services for example and you think that's the thing that builds up trust and you spend a lot of time measuring that how well people see your quality you get this false sense of trust when consumers or people in the community where your plants might be value something else is building up trust you have this gap you don't communicate and so I think it's important to have an ongoing honest conversation I think one of the things Iqbal you mentioned is really key that that trust is such a human emotion and such an intangible thing that that that transparency is key to making it more tangible when you have and you're not afraid to share and to show and to be found out then trust comes even when things aren't as much as right as they should be and that in in in encourage dialogue and so I think if you can make sure we have an honest dialogue about what certain people see as critical to trust and compare that to how we see it we begin to start the conversation that's that's fruitful and I think we've had a very interesting conversation so far and to my great surprise I thought there'd be a lot of divergences in approach to the idea of trust but I am very pleasantly surprised there is a great deal of commonality on the importance of trust and what it needs to have what needs to be done to have mutual trust now we've heard some very interesting ideas here shared by a panelist I would now invite our audience to ask questions I would request you to raise your hand I think a microphone will come to you or maybe do we have microphones at all we do have microphones two gentlemen here so raise your hands they'll come to you would you kindly identify yourself who you are and state your question keep it brief and if possible identify the person who should answer that question for you so who would like to ask a question the gentleman there I'm Bernd Walderman from the Boston Consulting Group I'm pleasantly surprised that I originate from the country which seems to be most trusted and I've had the pleasure of working in Indonesia for the last 20 years I have a question to pay I hear your point and sympathize with your agenda of improving the safety net for the workers now for investors they need the trust and they have trust if there is some degree of predictability now we have experienced some stark increases in some minimum wages in some regions in the past and I have two questions one how can we make these a little bit more predictable for investors number one number two you had some comparison with other ASEAN countries which are probably right but we have to take the productivity part into account as well where some of these countries seem to be advantaged so what does it mean for productivity increases in Indonesia and shouldn't we then embrace outsourcing embrace some new technologies which may be leading to some short-term pain for some companies and employment thank you like I said we have increasing economic growth is very higher but the other side we have increase of Gini index also increasing it means we have a lot of gap middle up class and middle low including labor if you look the data by ILO international labor organization a salary compared by Thailand, Philippine and Malaysia Indonesia less than for example in Jakarta no we have approximately 240 dollars per month in Thailand approximately 320 dollars per month Philippine more than and yes if we compare the combatia Cambodia and Vietnam and lost yes Indonesia more than but purchasing power parity in Indonesia more than Philippine Thailand and Kuala Lumpur it is not fair so step by step the labor movement in Indonesia want to become the decent wages like the last former last president SBY said Indonesia become middle-income country but if you look the what's the meaning labor intensive industry is very low wages policy including the capital intensive like pre-fort coca-cola cinemas I think still make the low wages policies because follow the minimum wages policies from government so we want to change paradisms when economic growth increasing purchasing power for people including labor also increasing if purchasing power increasing it means domestic consumption increasing if domestic consumption increasing it means economic growth also increasing so we have the strategy not only action we call concept first step concept the second step lobby negotiate social dialogue and the last action if if our concept don't accept from government and employer and follow the rule not a radical radical action this is our opinions that was as you heard a very passionate defense of your position thank you very much for that Iqbal any other question can you comment on the level of skilled workers here you're comparing Philippines Thailand and other countries can you kind of elaborate on your opinion on this level of skilled workers in Indonesia versus other countries for one and two what your group is doing to educate the labor force on being better skilled workers taking personal initiative yeah Iqbal if you give a short answer to that okay I follow the Mackenzie Global Institute data they said 2005 until 2010 years 67 percentage productivity of Indonesian labor give for the economic growth this is Mackenzie data not me if you want to like said brothers about the productivity you should be compare apple to apple head to head not GDP because we have a lot of number of the people Toyota Indonesia had to have Toyota Thailand I believe because the Toyota our members I believe the workers of Toyota Indonesia more than productivity in the Thailand you can look in Nova kind of the Toyota lot of in Nova in export to the another country this is our opinion had to have apple to apple if productivity compare thank you Iqbal more questions this lady here in black if you can identify yourself and the person thank you hi I'm Haguya from the Straits night Singapore my question is for Minister Suzie now your policy against illegal fishing it's involved seizing and even sinking boats foreign boats from you know fellow ASEAN countries from the Philippines the Vietnam and even China my question is this comes at a time when ASEAN is actually coming together to form the AEC so do you wish you'd handle this a little differently how do you intend to resolve this issue okay thank you so for the opportunity to have this question so I can answer so back again that's what I said Indonesian had been for 20 years almost I think it can even be more we don't know so that thousands of both are fishing in our waters the last 15 years 115 companies have been collapsing and fishermen alone are getting less and less and difficult into getting their fish even for even for eating only so the the practices of fishing is getting brutally done by many Indonesian coastal fisheries people by bombing by cyanide and many other that because of desperation's of the of the sea sourcing that taken away that much I mean can you imagine if if just an example Vietnam has 1900 both in one time in Natuna waters and then we captured one boat in in February in Rajahampak that's the holy diverse site for Indonesian fishermen I don't think any Indonesian fishermen will go fishing there and we captured one Vietnamese boat with 2100 sax fins imagine one one two thousand one hundred kilogram sax fin mean coming from 200,000 kilogram of fish and then just the last we captured and Haiva one tremper with 900,000 kilogram which is this is a dream of many Indonesian processing plant and this had been happened for many years and nobody seems to be aware Chokowi said we had been putting the oceans in our backyard so Mamungi Laut he said in Bahasa so never see it and the fact and the reality become too much difference as a second largest coastal line in the world but we are number five in Southeast Asia that is so much to to see and we had to discuss this together Indian put that measure into Indonesian boat that entering the water Australian had been sinking 1500 Indonesian fishing vessel who enter Australian water in the last 10 years but we do 20 or 30 of them now almost 30 in public way because the president want to give a shock treatment yes why we have to do this therapy the because with such a huge territorial and such a huge number there's no other oceans have fishing butcher as much as 7 to 10,000 fishing vessel other than Indonesia right imagine those thousand boat coming to show Germany waters or England water I imagine that's and that's not small boat is 300 500 the smallest is 50 to 80 gross tonnage which average Indonesian boat 80% at least 70% steel 5 gross tonnage what can we do we have to do something but we have to leave it there thank you very much I'm sorry you've all been really good about giving me very short comments during the debate we are now running out of time but I just want to tell you that Jokowi is the affectionate name for the Indonesian president whose full name is a joke of it or just that our international viewers know who we are talking about it and now does anyone else have a question we would like short questions and short answers if not I'm going to ask Susie to tell us more about the fishing policy here anyone else a gentleman there in the pink shirt hello I'm Geraint Hughes from Clifford Chance maybe a question for a couple of panelists briefly how important is social media to either gaining or losing trust okay I'm going to give that question actually to begin with to atul and then to Frankie well clearly social media is very important and in today's world where everyone's connected it's it's that much more important and it is great vehicle to gain trust you can lose it as my colleague here mentioned very quickly you know we've built a business over 128 years it may take 128 days 128 minutes to lose the trust in today's world so clearly it is important and and it's important you know we have to all be responsible in how we use it but and and we have to be authentic in genuine so that it's long lasting but that's short answer to important question of today's age thank you atul what about you Frankie well thanks to social media I think our president gained the popularity through social media because he was coming from solo only the the head of the solo and come to Jakarta as a governor so that that can be really powerful tools but we have to use it very responsible way and I think that is we have to embrace ICT is very important for every business they were doing I think also social media just put so much pressure on all companies and the government because it's so easy to mobilize opinion for or against and I think that's been has its upsides as well as downsides for those who are affected by that Mark do you want to add to that just briefly I think I think it's a really great question it's sort of like how I started my favorite color gray social media is like Prometheus and fire it can be good or can bad it can take on the color however you want to to use it and so I think it puts a lot of pressure on businesses on governments to be proactive because I think and spread very quickly and there may be no truth to things or there may be truth that's hidden to it it's very hard to combat it because you can't find where you get the the source and grab it and so I think the only way to combat something like that is through through dialogue and through genuineness okay I think if there are no more questions unless there's somebody urgently wants to ask a question I don't see any questions I'm going to give each panelist 30 seconds to give me their one quick takeaway as to how they can build trust in their area of work starting with you Frankie 30 seconds well Rome is not built in one day so trust has to be embedded in the corporate and the societies so that really we can build up the trust over the times Iqbal yeah we need in investment come to the our countries but the other seat we need the decent wages prosperity by mutual trust partnership equality transparency and accountability we can build the trust thank you at all well trust is the fundamental and foundation of what we do and I said it earlier the brand is a promise and a great brand is a promise kept hi thank you that was short and sweet Susie trust is very important especially for the government to continue build up and give its prosperity to the people we need them to trust us and transparency and good governance is its need to enforce the trust is to be there without that government would not able to influence and do good for the people thank you mark I think having a paradigm shift and seeing engagement with communities not as communities as stakeholders but as shareholders for the long-term perspective it goes a long way to engendering trust thank you well that brings our session to an end now the absence of trust has great potential to derail the gains we've made socially and economically I think all of us here sitting on this podium agree that it's really important all of us business the government and society put more focus on not just value but values not just financial gain but the ethics which underlie our interaction it's time to put trust back at the heart and center of our relations that was the DW World Economic Forum debate coming to you from Jakarta thank you very much for joining us wherever you are thank you also to the audience who's sitting with me here in Jakarta and above all to our wonderful panelists for stimulating and lively debate on the issue of trust