 Some of the investors they make the mistake that they want to buy properties that they would live in and they don't buy properties where their tenants would live in. So that's totally different because a property might not suit your personal taste as a owner or as a person who's going to live in it, but it's perfectly fine for other tenants. Exactly. It's perfectly fine for other tenants. Good evening and welcome back to The First Time Homebuyer Show. I'm your host, Esti Klassen. In the spirit of August, we celebrate empowered women this entire month on The First Time Homebuyer Show. Be sure to check in with us every Wednesday night at 8 p.m. live on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. And of course we bring you amazing content on all our platforms. We've got Zaman Tungwakumalo with the private property podcast at 7 p.m. every weekday from Monday to Friday. Of course we're all celebrating women and Zaman too is speaking to spectacular women throughout the month of August and then we have Chad still touring gorgeous properties around Joe Hannesburg. He's on every Monday and Friday at 8 p.m. And also Mbali, an empowered woman herself in the farming industry. She's chatting to amazing guests every Tuesday and Thursday evening at 8 p.m. If you're ready to buy land, invest in farming, cattle, whatever the case may be, that is definitely a show you do not want to miss. This evening I am chatting to an absolutely amazing, empowered woman who's got multiple awards top of her class for her MBA, traveled the world and is now investing in property like crazy in South Africa. Silindile Leseyane, how are you this evening? I'm well, thank you, how are you doing? I can't complain, thank you so much. I looked at your bio firstly. It is a long LinkedIn bio. I don't know how you did that, how you got started. Absolutely amazing. I mean you've gotten an award for the winning property investor in 2019. Yes, I won the most innovative category for the top of the year in 2019. And then also top in the class for MBA. When you were doing your MBA, I mean business analysts, like the list is endless. So I don't even want to talk anymore. I'd like you to introduce us to how you started, not even your property journey, but your journey in life, what you studied, how you got to where you are today to winning these awards. You've been featured on podcasts, radios, magazines, every the list. This is how we start women's money. Thank you. Okay, Esti. So my story begins as a girl from a very small town called Peter Diffenbo Malanga. That's where I spent my formative years. And I came to Johannesburg in 2001 to come and study at university, where I did my becoming accounting and economics. So that was my first time leaving a small town and coming to a city really. And then after finishing my degree, I went into management consulting. And that's where I started working primarily in the financial services industry, as well as utilities. So it's like your government institutions, like municipalities, etc. And then as well, so I worked here in South Africa and then briefly in the UK as well. So yeah, so then after working for a couple of years, I then decided that I was actually going to further my studies. And this one actually enrolled at the Vitz Business School to further my studies doing a postgraduate diploma in management, as well as my MBA, which I did here at Vitz University, as well as at Indiana University. So I did an exchange program doing my MBA overseas. So I've got a dual MBA from Vitz and Indiana University. So that's my academic stuff. But so yeah, so my property journey really started with when I really at home as well. I'd say that's where it really started because my mom had what we call at my room, you know, like we had the main house at home. And then we had tenants at the back of the house. So that's when I got introduced to the concept of actually building a house and then putting tenants in and then actually getting income from it. So that was really my first foray, I would say, into property getting, understanding it from the way that my mother was running it. But from my own perspective, I would say, it started when I bought my very first property in Madrid. Because when I started working, I rented for a year. And after a year, I did the math and I thought to myself, it doesn't make sense to spend so much money paying somebody else's bond. Let me rather get my own bond and get my own property. So that is why then after just a year of renting, I decided to actually buy my first property, which was for living. And it was a nice unit, two-bedroom, which I still have till today. This was when I was 23 years old, right? Oh wow. So I bought this two-bedroom, two-bedroom, two-bathroom unit, very nice. And I don't think I had actually affected in all the cost of property ownership at the time because soon thereafter, the interest rates were climbing up almost every quarter. And I found myself struggling to keep up with the payments. And I remember I was working in financial services and one of the no-knows is being blacklisted because you can't be working with other people's money and you can't manage your own. So I had to make sure that I sort that out quickly. And so I decided, you know what, I've got the space that I don't use, which is the other bedroom, which I was using when I've got visitors or whatever, which was once in a while. So I figured, you know what, I could make a plan when I've got a visitor, but this unused space I'm actually paying and not using. And so that's when I actually decided I was going to get a tenant who was going to share the space with me. This was my way before your APNB days. This was just me deciding to say I've got space that I'm not using. Let's just split the rental and also all the other expenses that come with it. And I think that was really the best decision I could have taken because it not only helped from the sense of being able to relieve my cash flow and all of that, but it also introduced me to the concept of running my own property business because I had to learn how to advertise. And I actually advertised on private property fund enough. I advertised and I mentioned what my criteria was. I was looking for a single female, a professional lady, non-smoking, blah, blah. So I mentioned all the criteria that I was looking for. And then I had applicants and then I had to screen them, get the application. So that was really my introduction into property investing. So a lot of people say that they can't invest in property or it's too expensive. And one of those ways where you're actually using the space that you've already got and you get somebody else to rent with you is one of the ways that you can actually get started. So that is how I got started personally. And then soon thereafter, that's when I actually said, okay, I like property. I like the fact that your property grows in value. You've got somebody who's helping you pay off the bond. So let us actually get a rental property outright. So that's when I actually then started investing in property. So you got someone to pay your bond? Yes. If you can't beat the system, be the system. I always say this, you know, work with the system. I want to go back a little bit. You spoke about your mom who taught you about property. She started way back then. If you look back now, what are some of the lessons you learned from your mom when it came to property? It was okay. One was getting the right tenants because getting the right tenants, because we had to live with the tenants on our premises. You know, it was you have to get the right people. So she always made sure that she got the right people. And so when my mom passed away and then I had to take over these tenants, I don't think I got that right, you know, because some of the tenants, because I was now staying here in Jobeck and they were in Petrative, they didn't really take care of the property as well as when my mother was still there. She was actively managing it. She was on site. If anything breaks, she attends to it immediately. If there's anything with the tenants, she addresses it. So now I was managing it remotely. And so that was one of the things, you know, that I learned that sometimes you need to just manage your tenants a lot tighter than when you are, you know, far away. So those are just some of the things around, you know, tenants selection is very important. Managing your property is very important so that it maintains its value. How long have you been in the property industry? Because you bought your first property at the age of 23. Wow, that's amazing. But now if I tell you I'm revealing my age, I shouldn't have repeated that. But yeah, I got my first property in 2007. And so yeah, you can do the math. Okay. I want to, you know, when I first reached out to you to join us on the show, I spoke about young women in South Africa, how we can get into the property market without breaking our back, without being blacklisted in the next five, six months, whatever the case may be. How do we do that confidently? And you know, when I was actually watching an interview today and someone said in the interview that our biggest problem as a woman is that we get emotionally attached to everything, including property investment. And this is my burning question for the show. I want to base everything around. This is how can young women in South Africa start their journey into property? I would say that you need to firstly decide on why you are buying the property. Because when you're buying a property to live in and when you're buying it for investment, it's two different things. And you need to have a different viewpoint on that. For example, if I'm buying a property that I'm going to live in, I have got a different lens. I'm looking onto, I like it. Am I going to stay here? Are my kids going to like it? Is my husband going to like it? So it's a different way of looking at it, unlike if I'm getting an income property or an investment property, because I'm thinking of, is this going to make me money or not? I don't really care if it's pretty or nice or the paint or whatever. It's got, you know, I don't really care about some of those frivolous things. Yeah, that I would have if it was mine. That I would have if it was my house. I would care about certain finishes or about the colors of the tiles or about the color of the paint in the wall. Do you get what I'm saying? Those small things are important if it's your house, you know. But if it's a rental, that's why we need to, as women, we need to divorce ourselves emotionally from the property. So you need to look at it analytically and say, run the numbers and say, is this going to make me money? If that's your objective. If you want to live in it, then by all means, you know, where the lens of do I like it? How long do I see myself living here? You know, whatever else is important to you as a homeowner. And also bearing in mind that sometimes we start somewhere as a property where we live in and then eventually we move out and we then rent it out. So that's also important that you understand what is your long term goal with this particular property. Because when I bought my first unit, like I was saying, I was single, I didn't have kids, I didn't have anything. But I still bought a two bedroom because I thought to myself, I'm going to stay here for as long as possible. It must be comfortable for me and I will move out the day that I get married, which is what I did, you know. And now I'm renting that house out. So that initial, I had to wear the head of I like being here. Other young people are going to like this area. And so they will rent here when I move out. I'm not going to have issues with that. So it's about, you know, just understanding that lens and thinking about it analytically to say, is this a good investment property or not? So just removing yourself emotionally. I know it's an emotional process, you know. Even if you're buying it for investment purposes, because you get invested in the process, you want it to succeed because you want to make the money. You can't help it. But it's just a matter of understanding that you are buying an investment property and just keeping that in mind. And also some of the investors, they make the mistake that they want to buy properties that they would live in and they don't buy properties where their tenants would live in. So that's totally different because a property might not suit your personal taste as a owner or as a person who's going to live in it, but it's perfectly fine for other tenants. Exactly. It's perfectly fine for other tenants. You know, it might not have tiles, other people don't mind it. Yeah. And people just need a roof over their head at the time. They need a roof over their heads. And locations are so important, you know. And location is important. You know, some people say, I would never buy a property in Hilbrough or Yovl or whatever. And it's a booming property market for investment. You may not personally want to live in it, but there are tenants and the demand is astronomical. So you need to just divorce yourself from who you are as a person to say, would I love you or not? To say, would tenants, are tenants willing to live there or not? Because they want to be closer to work opportunities. Right. You know? So they need to take three taxes to get to work. Exactly. And also it's affordable for me and my family and for the people who are there. And I think you know what you're reminding me of something that we spoke about before in the show is know your why. What is your why? Go into this journey and know your why. What is your why? My why is my family. It's my family. You know, it's what strives me to do the best that I can because you know, they're looking up to me as an, especially my children because I've got three children. So they're looking up to me as a role model. Like I mentioned my mom, you know, she was in the property space and I got into it as well. And also my mom, she did her honors. You know, she was 50 when she did her honors. So you know, yeah. So for me, it's like those are the things that she said the bar. Right. Yeah, no, you have to compete. Together I'm saying, so if I'm not doing the best that I can, then you know, I'm failing my children. I'm failing my family as well. So my big why really is about I'm doing that I can so that I can create a legacy for my children. And I can also be the best example and the best role model that I can for them. Because they take, you know, we look at our parents and I'm speaking from experience and we learn from them and we want to walk in their footsteps, you know. Yes, we see the mistakes they make, but we also see how they get up after they fall and that's so important because I think, especially with the new generation coming in, you know, whether it's our kids or people are just a little bit younger than me, it's hard. We are so influenced by social media. It is so difficult to want to do all of these things and achieve all these goals and you want to achieve it even faster now because you're seeing that someone younger than you at the age of 18 has already bought a property. I heard this the other day on the show and I sat here and I was like, 18 and I'm sitting here and I don't have, you know. And I think it's so important to just not be so influenced but also understand that we too as young adults, young women also need to remember that we are leaving a legacy and we need to start now. Absolutely. And also we're all in our own paths. We're all in our own paths and you cannot compare yourself to somebody else because their story is different. Their circumstances are different. They're not coming from the same economic backgrounds that we are. They don't have access to the same information that we are. So really, we can look at other people and be inspired by their journey and say, wow, she's amazing. But at the same time, let us not be too hard on ourselves and understand that we are all on our journey and our journeys are different and our destinations are different. So somebody might be able to accumulate a hundred properties in a year and you might only be able to achieve one. And for you, that's still an amazing achievement because you've gone from point A to point B. Exactly. So everybody's point A to point B is different. So let's not put ourselves under unnecessary pressure. And I think that's a special note too, is a young woman watching the show tonight is that we need to understand that we are running a different race. Different speeds, probably in a different country, whatever the case, I'm just giving these random metaphors. But understand that we are all in our own race, own lane, stay in your own lane. And also, whatever you achieve going forward, don't compare yourself to the other person on Instagram or TikTok, whatever the case may be. I want to talk a little bit about, we spoke about you bought your first property at a very young age, 23. And I want to talk about the property market from then to now because you've been in this game ever since. So do you see changes? Let's talk about women. Let's talk about women. From when you started to now, are there more women investing in property? There could be more. Okay. There could be more, but I think we are getting there. I think we are getting there. I'm starting to see the change. I've got a Facebook group that's for women and I see that they're doing amazing things. They're buying hotels, they're buying land, they're buying apartment blocks. So women are really stepping out, but we are just not as vocal and we don't surface it as much as our counterparts do. And maybe this is a story for another day, you know. But I was reading the story. I mean, Cheryl Senberg, the guy, the crew of Facebook wrote her book about leaning in. And there's just so many, it's so layered the issue about women and how we surface our achievements. We almost don't want to seem as if we're bragging. Right. So we always want to play small and be in the shadows because we don't want to put ourselves out there because what if we make a mistake or whatever our issues are because we've been, I don't know, just in the shadows for so long that it's difficult for us to come out into the light because we're afraid maybe it's going to burn or whatever the case might be. So our issues with just a visibility with putting ourselves out there, it's so layered because we could spend all day just talking about some of those things and the psychological impact that being oppressed for so long. I mean, for example, women, we were not allowed to buy properties until not so long ago. We were not allowed to have bank accounts until we were not allowed to have jobs. So this is still fairly new to us. For us, our generation, we think this is normal. It's not, our grandkids, you know, we are like our ancestors wildest dreams. They could never do what we are doing if our generation is able to do. And because it's so recent, we still haven't yet been able, we're not yet comfortable enough to come out. To come out because we are not yet sure. We are afraid of making mistakes. You find that even in corporate, right, you'll find that like a male person, he knows like 10% of the work. But trust you me, they're 10% that he knows everybody is going to know that he knows 10%. Whereas the women, they are smart. They know what they're doing. And, you know, they are brilliant, but they are almost apologetic about it. The achievements, about how much they know, about how they speak. And so, you know, they're almost speaking a lower hash tone because they're uncertain. Whereas the men, you know, we will know. We all know. We hear you. We hear you. So I think women are slowly getting there, but we are not where we could be. Right. But at the same time, if you look at reports from Lightstone, they're indicating that single females are the biggest property buyers. Yes. The group. Yes. They're more than married women, more than single men and more than couples. Single females are the biggest property buyer group, you know. So we are getting there. Exactly. That we are focusing mostly on providing accommodation for our children and our family. That's where we are at. So we are now taking the next leap to getting to be the investors. Exactly. So that's the next level. But I think in terms of getting our primary residence, we are there. So Céline Dille, you literally answered my question because my next question was going to be, how accessible do you think the property market is to women in South Africa? I think it's more accessible than it's been in the past. As I was mentioning earlier, that single women are the biggest group of property buyers. I think we are there. I think there's so many opportunities now. And I think especially with in areas like most in the cities where there's like your complexes and your townhouses and your flats, where women feel safer to be able to buy into those. Because now unlike in a standalone house where maybe safety might be an issue, we are able to buy into these communities that have got facilities that we use. So I think it's definitely the tide is changing. We just now need to move from being the consumer to the producers. Moving from buying properties to live in to rent out. So that's the next level. To become those property investors. Yes. You know, and it's amazing that we've achieved, you know, that the ability to buy our first home. Yes. And you're right. And I think what's so important is, and I think I'm not saying men don't look for security and safety, but it's one of our as women, one of the top things on our list when investing in properties, especially a first home, is this community safe? Because I'm alone. I don't, I'm not buying it with my partner, whatever the case maybe is. So I feel like safety and location is one of the two top things we look for when investing in property. Absolutely. And I wanted to go on to, because I introduced you and I believe you are extremely successful when it comes to the property market as a woman in South Africa. And I'd like to congratulate you again on all your achievements. But what would you say is Céline Delaise's secret to success? And you have to share this. So we too. Can you know? Get there. I honestly don't know if there's a secret, but SD, I just work very hard. I'm passionate about what I do. I'm passionate about helping and serving people. You know? And so when you are, when you serve, you know, when your first, when your first instinct is to serve and to help, then it just becomes easier. So for me, I think it really is about serving. It's about helping people from a genuine desire to help. That's where it comes from. So then if that spells over to other things and other accolades, then that becomes a bonus. But for me, it really is just about being a person or being a servant leader and being able to serve and to help other people. That's so true. And it needs to come from a genuine place because it's just, it's like a cycle. It just comes back when you give it, you receive. Yeah. Yeah. We spoke about women becoming investors, more so than first time home buyers and investing in, big developments. You spoke about women who started investing in hotels, which is great. But becoming, you know, that part of the triangle or the pyramid, however you look at it, the main person, you know, the top, the investor and people, you know, now they start investing in us, pyramid scheme, things. I would like to know from you, how do you believe that young women in South Africa can become those investors in the property sector? It all starts with that desire. You must want it. Because why, it goes back to your why. It goes back to your why. Because once you've got a very strong why, all the excuses go away. When you went, for example, you say, I don't have enough money. You then say, how can I? When you say there are no deals on the market, you say, where can I find them? How can I find them? But it has to start with the desire. You have to want it. Because then when you want it, you're going to be willing to put in the work that's required. So once you've got the why, it's about doing your research and doing an understanding what it takes to be an investor. Because it's a different, we spoke about it earlier around, you know, the lens that you wear when you're buying a property to live in and for one, for investment, right? So it's important that you spend the time and energy and money as well in educating yourself. Educate yourself about being an investor, much like we mentioned earlier, that I did my MBA in South Africa as well as overseas. If you're going to be good at anything, you need to spend the time and energy and money in educating yourself so that you can be good at it. So you have to do that, unfortunately. You have to learn about what does investing mean? How do I know whether this is a valid investment opportunity or not? How do I know what are the running costs of a property? How do I manage it? How do I find it? How do I source funding? You know, how do I become an investor? Because it's a different thing, right? Yeah. So that is what I would say that you need to do, you need to start with having a big why so that there are excuses for going out the window. You need to do your research and your due diligence around what is actually required to become an investor. So whether that means you get a coach or you get a mentor, somebody to help walk with you, the journey with you that has done it. Because I'll make myself as an example, you know, I bought my first property in 2007 and then I really didn't grow my property portfolio until I would say 2017, they're about, you know. And so the tide changed when I actually got myself a mentor because I was doing things that were wrong, they were unsustainable and they wasn't going to take me to where I wanted to get to. So really I turned the corner once I actually get a mentor because they've made all the mistakes, they've made, you know, they know what works, what doesn't work, how to get money from the banks and other investors, et cetera. So for me, that's when literally things changed is by getting myself a mentor to walk that journey with me. Because there's no need for you to make the same mistakes. Absolutely not. Educating yourself. And just today, actually, we spoke about as much as yesterday's academic knowledge that we need to be great at this journey. But there's also personal development. And you as a person, and we just spoke about this today and how every day we need to continue developing thyself, you know. So what are you doing to develop yourself? I read a lot. I read a lot of books. So I like audio books, I like actual books. So I read at least two books a month. And then I'm also like watching podcasts, YouTube, networking with people to grow my own knowledge. Because if you're the smartest person in the room, then you know, you need to get another room. Right. You can't always be the person that's the smartest in the room. You need to look at, okay, this is where I am. This is where I am, sorry. What are people that are doing at the next level? Right. And how do I get to the next level? What do I need to do? You know, so I do a lot of around, you know, because I'm a mom, I've got three children, I'm a wife. And you know, in all these balancing priorities, so how do I manage my time? So I read a lot about, you know, managing my time around personal developments, around being a better person, around property, around finances. So I really read things that are interesting to me that I feel that this is the area that I need to grow in. You know, so those are just some of the things that I do. You can never have enough knowledge. No, absolutely not. Especially on your, if we're growing every day as people. We grow every day. And that's, yeah. And when you think you know everything or you think you've made it, that's the beginning of the end for you. Right. And then you just go, move to the next room. Move to the next room. Where people that are doing bigger and smarter things than what you are doing at some moment. Exactly, I love that. I love that. I want to talk a little bit about why do you think, because we spoke about women in corporate spaces and how, you know, our personalities are just a little bit. We're just here. And we, it's difficult for us to just speak out and proudly and because like you said, we feel like we're boasting. Yeah. Why do you think the property, or do you think the property sector needs more women? We do need more women. We do need more women because women naturally gather us. We want, you know, we provide us, man. We are creators. We are creators. And so creating a space like a woman can come and look at this, you know, white walls here and say, we can put this there. I can imagine these things here. We're not, we're not done by. You know, it takes a certain touch as women to add value and to just think of things creatively out of the box. You know, so, so we definitely need women because we are also the biggest population group. There's more of us. Yeah. So we know what it takes, you know, as you mentioned earlier on, we know what women are looking for, when they're looking for arms, they're looking for safety, they're looking for convenience. And so when we are becoming investors, we are providing the kind of homes that we would want to live in, you know. So if you look at some of the other properties out there, you just look at it and say, I can imagine this house. The landlord here is a man that no woman would allow this. Yeah. It's so easy to just spot. You know, so I think we do need more women out there because we just have a different way of doing things and doing business. And you know, the fact that we are not able to, or we are not yet there, I really think that, you know, the world is deprived of our skills and our abilities. And we need more women in property. I agree, I agree more. Yeah. I'd like to find out from you, and I'm just going to narrow it down to three qualities that you believe, let's say property investors. Maybe we bombarding them with the woman. But we need to talk about women. Three top qualities that you believe a property investor needs to achieve. What you need to be able to achieve in terms of? So like if I want to achieve as being a property investor. Okay, okay. And I want to, positive cash flow. I always want these things to manifest. I don't want to fail as a property investor. All right. What else? Yeah. So the first thing is that you need to have a strategy. Because you can't do, there's so many different strategies that are available in the property industry. You can do flipping, like buy and sell. You can do buy and hold where you're doing, you're buying a property to rent it out. So you could do flats, townhouses, standalone houses. You know, there's so many things that you could be doing to your accommodation. You could be doing short-term letting, like on Airbnb or booking.com, et cetera. So you need to be very clear around, you know, what is your strategy? Because if you're going to be all over the show, you're going to basically overwhelm yourself, and then you're going to say, this is too much, I want out. So have a clear or a preferred strategy. You can have a secondary one, but have a preferred one to say, this is what I want to do in the property space. And this is my niche, and this is what I want to do. Maybe while starting out, you can always grow later. The second thing is that you need to be able to find and analyze good opportunities. You need to find the right opportunity. You need to analyze it and say, does it make sense from a cash flow perspective so that it makes money for you? Because remember, you're not running a charity, you're running a business. So it needs to make money for you. So you need to understand whether the costs upfront or the costs ongoing. So basically finding those opportunities and doing your research and your due diligence and running your numbers around it, it's going to be key. Because if you're buying just randomly buying properties and you're not doing your numbers properly, you're soon going to be bankrupt. And then you're going to fail in business. So you need to make sure that you're buying right. And then the most important thing is you need to be able to find the money. Because you can find all the best deals in the world, all the best opportunities in the world. If you can't match it with money or access to money, then your dreams of becoming a property investor go out the window. But having said that, a lot of people always say, oh, I don't have money. And then it's the end of the world. It's like, oh, poor me. It's not the end of the world. There's so many ways that you can actually raise money. The banks are part one. The banks are part one. There are many other creative strategies that you can use to actually raise money. But without the ability to raise money, you can't buy the property. Unfortunately, property is expensive in South Africa. So you do need the money. You can't run away from it. So you'd say, OK, why does my goal then? How am I actually going to raise money? You can approach the banks. You can use, for example, seller finance, where the seller actually finances you to buy the property. In the space that I'm in, we're in a property stock fell. You can use a property stock fell to help you raise the money. You can even approach other investors or other members of your family or church members or your friends. And you club together and you buy the property. There's so many ways that you can do this. So don't let your own affordability or your own limited access to funding stop your dreams of becoming a property investor. And I feel like that's a whole show on its own. Because you said creative ways that we can get money and access to these funds to become a property. And we need to sit down and talk about all these ways. Because I do believe that there are younger people out there who feel defeated when they do not have enough funds. And they're just like, OK, I can't do it. The bank doesn't approve. As soon as the bank says no, they feel like there's nothing else they can do. But there are so many different avenues to get this money. And I like that you spoke about property stock fell. And I know that a lot of people have heard about it, but they don't necessarily know how it works. So maybe just before we wrap up, if you can maybe speak a little bit about that. Because like I said, the burning question of the show was how can young women in South Africa invest in property with a basic salary of 10,000? How do we achieve those goals? And I feel like property stock fall is definitely one solution. It's definitely a viable solution in the sense that you come together with your friends or your family or whoever you've identified that this is the right people that you want a journey with. And you come together and you contribute money. Because you may find that, for example, you're finding a cheap property for 200,000 rent. You can still find those properties in the CBD in Jobek and Pretoria. You still can. And then you put money. Maybe the bank just needs some deposit at 10% or 20%. That's fairly easy to raise if you're putting in 1,000 rent or 2,000 rent each. So then you get the first property. And then you put another 10,000, 20,000 rent deposit for the next one. And then you're clubbing. So it doesn't become so prohibitive anymore. So really a stock fell is one of the ways that we all know. And it's an industry where in excess of 50 billion rent circulates in stock falls. But most of those money is going towards consuming. And I mentioned earlier around how we should shift from being consumers to being producers. Instead of being the ones that are just giving our money away, we are actually the ones that are receiving the money. So let us just then think creatively around how can we change our minds around how to raise money. And stock fell is just being one of those ways that we can do so. That's very true. And I feel like I spoke to a group of friends about this, and I really wanted to start this initiative and join. But then the biggest, I feel like, issue is, the biggest downfall is will you still have that 1,000 rent that you're putting in in the next few months? But then again, it goes to self and personal development. And it goes back to what you were saying about, if you do not have the funds, make a way. Yeah, make a way. You start businesses, whatever the case may be. You know, we all have our own little hassles, I like to call it on the side, that can help you get that 1,000 rent. And it's, you know, only a 1,000 rent. Really, it all boils down to what is your strategy and then the property that you've found and how much do you actually need. Because you might find that the bank is willing to finance 100%. You just need transfer and bond registration cost. Which on a 200,000 rent property might not even be that much. So if there's four of you guys, maybe it's 20,000 rent or it's 15,000 rent. It's not prohibitive. And I mentioned earlier that you must have, when you're an investor, you must have a different lens around which property you would live in and which one would work as an investment. Because you may find that as a start, a little bachelor in the CBT can be your start. You learn the ropes and then you move on to the next one and then you move on to bigger deals. And I think with property stock fall, because it would be three, four, five, a group of you, if you, as a group, can come to an agreement on why we're doing this, you know. It's great if you join a property stock fall and we all have the same why. Exactly. And then we figure out how to go forward. And the same level of commitment. Right, same level of commitment, very important. I want to talk about leadership and women empowering you yourself, you empowering the women in the property sector. And I'd like to talk about how are you using your current skills to empower more women. I know you said you started a Facebook group. But so how else are you empowering women to join you on your mission to invest in property? Okay, so I do have that Facebook group that I've mentioned, which is specifically for women in property. And then I'm also a property coach and mentor. So I do help other women who want to invest in property, not just women, but primarily women. So that's one of the ways that I do that. And I've also mentioned traditionally stock falls are mostly for women. Well, I used for women to have mothers and grandkids. So I also have a property stock fell and most of our members I would say a 60 to 70% are actually women. So now I'm having women who are coming in and getting introduced into property through the stock fall model. And what I'm finding now is some of them come in through the stock fall and then they understand how property works because we share so much knowledge around. This is the property we're buying. This is how we're buying it. These are the numbers. This is how we're going to add value to it, et cetera, et cetera. So they're getting, and so now they're saying, wow, I want to do this too. So this is a way that they're coming in at a lower price point and they're getting access to a knowledge and basically of how to actually become a property investor. And so they then actually becoming interested in becoming investors themselves. Becoming the producers. Exactly. Not the consumer. Exactly. Might just name the show that. Be the producer, not the consumer. I like that. So Céline D'Lestel on the topic of woman empowerment, most importantly. We see lots of friends, family members, who are women who are currently still living in the shadow of whether it's their husband, their partner, whatever the case may be, and who are actually trying to get out of that shadow and trying to be where you are, right, out of the shadow of the man and living for you and trying to achieve their own goals. What advice would you give for women who are currently going through that phase? You know you're in between. You don't want to outshine your husband but you also want to achieve your own goals. You're in between and you're stuck. What advice would you give women like that in South Africa right now? I would say that you know, when we get married or get partnered up, we are still individuals. We still have our own goals and what we want to achieve. So if that's what you want to do and you want to become a property investor, by all means you can take your husband with you on that journey. But he may or may he may not, right? But what's important is that you've got a strong why you want to do this. You must still have the right mentality and mindset about I want to become a property investor. And in some cases you may need your partner's support but you can't do it by yourself. You know, you can for example go to the bank, get a loan. I mean banks are willing to give home loans to individuals even if you're married. You know, so don't just think you always have to have your husband with you. You can get a loan by yourself as well. If you're married in a community of property you may just need their consent or whatever but you can. You can, yeah dude. And I think again it's about educating us. It's about educating yourself. It's about understanding to say, you know what, I want to invest in property but my husband is not keen or that's not his cup of coffee or whatever but I want to do it. How can I still do it? Right. How can I? So you need to be able to just break down those barriers in your own mind to say this is actually possible because like we mentioned earlier in the interview that we, our grannies we're not able to do these kinds of things. So psychologically in our minds we still have those limiting beliefs that we can't do these things. You know so but nowadays there's opportunities that are out there you just need to do research about it. Find out what can I do if I want to become a property investor and you know and you can do it on your own absolutely, absolutely you can. In, I feel like in my opinion I do believe that a lot of women are still living in the shadow of their husbands or partner is because they, it's lack of knowledge. They don't know that whether you are married in community of property you can still and I think that we don't know that we can do this alone. Yes. You know for me the first thing is joint bonds. That's all we know but you can actually if you can afford it by yourself you can do it alone. You don't necessarily need your husband or your partner to do it with you. So again I feel a lot of us as women need to start educating ourselves in this regard. Absolutely. You know you find that some women don't even know the finances of their homes. You find one day your sheriff is kicking you out and you're like what happened? You don't know them. You've just basically handed over all financial responsibility to your partner. They pay the bond, they pay the children's trophies, they do whatever and you just sit and you do nothing. Your money is going to sentence money and going shopping with it. So you're not really involved in the finances of your own home. So I think we also need to take accountability for the finances of our home. Because you may find that even your husband is blacklisted and you don't know it. Because he's not telling you because he's there to provide security and safety. You know and the fact that you don't know what you don't tomorrow you homeless. You know and so it's so important that we manage our finances as individuals well but we're also put up with what's happening in our finances as a couple. Because if you're going to be applying for a bond whether individually or jointly both of your finances are going to be taken into consideration. So I think we really need to own up and actually take accountability for our own actions in our relationships and how we manage our finances. But absolutely women can apply for bonds and buy properties on their own. Even if they are married. Even if they are married. And I think again it's about taking that leap of faith and actually just doing it. Thank you so much. Thank you S.D. and the private property team. My final question for you. Thank you again so much for joining us. What Silindile is your hope for women in the property sector? Let's take up those spaces guys. Let's not play small. Let us enter those rooms where we think are not accessible to us. You know let's break them down and let us get in there. Let us sit around those tables where the decisions are made. So I think we've been playing small. We've been limiting ourselves due to our own issues. I think it's time that we now take up spaces and we actually become the investors, the producers and not just the consumers. I like that. Thank you so much Silindile. Thank you for joining us this evening. You've taught us a tremendous amount of knowledge I've learned just from sitting next to you. Sitting in the same room as you. So thank you. To everyone at home that's watching take up space. That is the message of this evening show. Thank you so much. Take care and keep warm.