 So hello everyone, and it's wonderful to have you here today at Entrepreneur Media APAC watching us for the Entrepreneur Life as we talked today with Jamil Qureshi and also with Caroline Breeze at and they're going to sort of Jamil in has a very interesting line of work where he's leading the performance he's a performance psychologist for a profession and helps businesses to achieve high performance and he's been doing a lot of work with its leads across the world with the names like Sergio Garcia from Manchester United to achieve the maximum potential and to become world number one in their respective arenas. And he also works extensively with big enterprises like Microsoft, American Express and lots of others to help them achieve better potential alongside their teams. And also we have the wonderful Caroline Breeze here today. She's the managing director of Australia and New Zealand for GoCon Flactus, the unicorn, the payment unicorn, which is doing some excellent work and in COVID times where we're all trying to cope. They're both going to give us some wonderful ideas as to how do you, when, when you're working remotely and your teams are working remotely, how do you sort of garner the best and do the best that you can. So thank you very much for joining us Jamil and Caroline and I look forward to wonderful next 30 minutes of discussion with you as we get to learn here at Entrepreneur. What is it that you're doing in order to help maximize the kind of agility or bring the best in the organization together. So let me start with you Jamil. You know, I understand that sports is a very competitive arena and you know, there are lots of lessons we can learn from the field that can be brought into the boardroom so to say, and you're doing some wonderful work over there where in your helping to, for people to learn about agility to learn about how to be flexible and at the same time be firm in terms of what you're trying to achieve. So particularly in today's work from home kind of environment and the culture of the organizations is changing so drastically. It's not as if we were born to, you know, work from home. It's not something we knew at all. So it's something we're learning as we work and at the same time we're trying to give our best to our work. So how is it, what kind of performance psychology are you working on and during these times when things are not the way they used to be. Hi, Rita. Thank you for inviting us along today. It's an interesting time for everyone and I'm doing a lot of work in regard to leadership in a new context. And everyone's talking about strong leadership at the moment. We want it from our governments. We want it from our organizations. We want it from brands. We want it from our leaders in business, but it's also about self leadership to making sure that we accept the current context and truly own our own progress attempt towards something which is bigger and better than what we had before. So I seem to be spending a lot of time talking about how we can change our thinking to change our doing. So I always believe the only way in which we can change our actions or behaviors is to change our mindset. And I think the future demands us to be different. So I often will say to companies leadership boards that we can't trust the future to anyone who champions the past. So I think if you're a sports person or you're a business person or an entrepreneur, even if you're simply looking at your own self development and personal career progression. I think the only way in which we can make sense and then make progress is to understand our current situation. So it's very difficult to know which way is forward if we don't know which way we're facing. So I guess what I do is I help people create a perspective. I seem to be spending a lot of time working with people at the moment in regard to gaining a current context, gaining a perspective. Looking at possibilities and opportunities and then creating a mindset to success in a disrupted and changing world. Sure. And, you know, I'll just come back to you in a bit Jamil, but let me start with Caroline in terms of asking her that Caroline today at Go Contactless, you know, you probably overnight had to put your teams on remote working and how difficult or how challenging was it for you personally and for the organization to be able to achieve. You know, I'm sure in January 2020 everybody had sort of put all targets to what they were looking to do this year and then by March everything sort of was looking as if it's going to unassemble what we had thought and, you know, so what what kind of challenges were you facing with the work from our facing. In fact, you know, at least the lockdowns are not there currently, but the work from home sort of continues and what what is it that you are sort of facing in one side or we're facing and how are you getting over it. I mean, how is it that you're working and particularly how you work with Jamil in these last few months to get the organization going and to keep them on the feet and to help achieve your goals. Yeah, so that's a great, that's a very broad question. That's a big one. It's interesting. So at Go Cardless, we were founded in the UK, many years ago, so we've got great brand presence there we've got a great customer base, you know, over 50,000 merchants users globally but in in A&Z in Australia, New Zealand and APAC where we're growing a brand and presence where we're very young. So we've only been on the ground for about a year. And, you know, one part of that is building a building a brand. The other part is you're building a team and a culture that feeds into the culture of the UK business. And that's quite hard when kind of halfway through the year the breaks are pulled on and everybody's working from home and getting to know each other and a great example of that is, you know, I'm based in Sydney, and the rest of the Go Cardless team is based in Melbourne. And, you know, it's it's hard because you're not only building rapport with your new colleagues and you're trying to build a business so you're bringing in new people into the organization to help you grow. And they're then having to navigate their way through a new role in a new company in a new market building a new brand where they can't have these face to face interactions and, you know, we've all adapted. It does take, I think, a little bit longer to build the same level of rapport and to build the same level of camaraderie and culture that you would normally do face to face. And so I'm really proud of the team because the way we've adapted and managed to build that, you know, with the help of Jamil and also the broader organization, it's been quite amazing. And I think I sometimes have this analogy that I play when I try and make myself feel like everything's alright where I imagine if I tried to move to this remote working world for my team and I, where we had to do everything from home without any face to face. But I'd done it in a world where no one else was experiencing the same thing as us. And that's not the case. And so I think everyone entered this thinking, oh my God, how am I going to do this working from home? How am I going to build relationships? How am I going to reach out to people for the first time and get them to spend time with me? And how am I going to build and maintain a culture? But I think one of the things that I have learned in the last few months is that everybody's going through the same thing. And there's commonalities in everybody's human. We've got the same things happening at home. And so, you know, it's been a little bit easier and it's definitely opened my book in interaction, how much business can actually get done in this type of environment. But, you know, we've put some great practices in place that are new. So instead of going out for drinks once a month, you know, we're catching up once a week for breakfast online, those types of things. But it's definitely been a challenging period for everybody. And I am sure Jamil will attest to this. There's no right or wrong way. But as a leader, I've definitely had to adopt and Jamil's helped go Carlos with this to no end, but adopt new ways to understand how your people are feeling. So how they present themselves in a Zoom may not represent how they're actually feeling and what they're actually going through as individuals and coaching and mentoring and guiding someone through this period is very, very different. I totally agree. How big is the team here in Australia and New Zealand? So we're, this is very eye-opening, but the start of COVID we were more than we are now. We've had unfortunately a couple of people leave us, but, you know, it's, we're a small team. So we're growing from 10. And, you know, we're all new. I was one of the first people on the ground. So everybody's new. Sure. I can imagine even with 10 people, it must be hard to get everybody on the same page. So, you know, you have your work cut out over there. Jamil, you know, I read about that you always talk about a very bottom-up diverse collaboration at workplaces. And, you know, so what exactly, I mean, is it that you expect or how do you work with leaders to be able to build that agility in the organization and to have more open-minded teams. And you also talk about the power of community, which comes to help the organization when everybody is trying to sort of be together on the goal that we are trying to achieve. So what, what, how exactly do you work towards it? Yeah, so I always say that communities outperform hierarchies and bureaucracies when it comes to maximizing human talent at the moment. And many organizations will still organize themselves as a bureaucracy or hierarchy. But I think now is probably the best time to make the most of the wisdom of crowds. And I think Carolyn hit it on the head really in regard to cultures that is a difficult one at the moment, because people have been geographically displaced, remote working, not coming together in the same way. And what GoCardless have done particularly well, you know, is nurture the culture that they have built their success upon and look to maintain that level of connectivity and community. And I think a lesson to all organizations is that, you know, once we start to play into community more and see ourselves not necessarily as an organization, but a community with a purpose. Well, I always say that purpose maximization will always drive profit maximization. So we see ourselves as a community with a purpose getting great clarity on what we're seeking to achieve and create as we come out of the levels of disruption that we've experienced, then we could be more successful. So I think the lesson for organizations is the word that you've already used, which is open mindedness. So it's not so much about trying to predict the future. No one can predict the future, but we can be ready for it. And the way we should be ready for it is to make sure that we are forming teams which have a level of fluidity. So the more agile and open minded we can be, the more we can deploy resource to opportunity as we gain clarity on it. So I think for organizations now to question and challenge the assumptions that their business was structured on is probably the way forwards. So you can almost argue now that the issues that a company will face in the future aren't necessarily important. But what's essential is that we form communities in our organization who can deal with those issues no matter what they are. And I think that it's particularly hard for larger organizations, particularly those who suffer from what I call the curse of incumbency. Those ones have been around for a long time, organized in the same way, banks, utilities, a good example, pharmaceutical companies. But I think that as an entrepreneur, if you've got a nimble business already, and if you've got a business which is not fat, then you've got the opportunity I guess to become more agile and more open minded and more fleet of foot where you can deploy your resource to opportunity as it makes sense. So I think let's wait for clarity rather than seek the plan and strategize too definitely. And let's just make sure that we work on our team members at the moment to make sure that they're in a good space in regard to mindset, attitude and culture, but also fluidity of roles and responsibilities to achieve what's purposeful to our organization. Absolutely. I do believe that from profit driven, we have to be more purpose driven during these times and you know, take everybody along, so to say, to help them grow in the organization grow. Yeah, I think that many people have had so many different experiences that, you know, to make sure that we now understand how people are feeling and make sure that it's a time for human leadership more than business leadership. Let's realize the resource that we have, the capability that we have to hand within our teams already. Let's regroup and reorganize and assess our strengths. So I see many organizations who often are trying to fix weaknesses and trying to have a look at where the gaps are, particularly as they become exposed in a time like this. What I actually think is probably better to understand our strengths in a time like this and see how they can be a springboard towards future success. So, you know, many organizations will sometimes weaken a strength by trying to strengthen a weakness. And I think it's a time that we need to be careful that we're not doing that. I'm very much like the work that we've been doing at GoCardless, to be understanding the strengths of the business culturally, as well as within the processes and technologies, but understanding the people strategies which have enabled success to take place so far. And then realizing how they can be an accelerant moving into a world which will be abundant with opportunity as we come through the initial short-term crisis. Sure. Caroline, you know, what kind of growth has GoCardless seen during the pandemic times? I mean, fintech companies and particularly payment fintech companies and your name says it all GoCardless, you know, it's sort of so in the times. So what kind of growth have you seen? And you know, I also understand that today in this walk from home or remote working culture, everybody is pretty much working all the time. I mean, we were supposed to be in our homes, we're supposed to be more relaxed, but you know, it's sort of things have become more contrary. We're working, I mean, I'm working in the evening in the morning pretty much all hours now. So there is no sort of breakaway time for work. So, you know, it depletes your energy and I think Jamil has very well spoken about energy management versus time management. So how is it that you are trying to sort of bring that across in the organization today? And particularly Jamil, after Caroline has answered, I would love for you to say that how did you help Caroline to take this help her make this pivot? You know, that this kind of growth and the kind of objectives that they had now and people obviously working more from home rather than less. How could this all come together in the right way? So let's start on you. Yeah, thank you. So at GoCardless, because we do we do payments, we do ultimately bank direct debit in a very digital way. We've obviously noticed and seen the shift from traditional payment methods into digital. We've seen people move away from cash and check into more digital. But in addition, in these types of times, particularly for small to medium business or businesses that are starting, there's a real focus on cash flow and process and adopting a pool mechanism for payments like GoCardless where we pull money out of your bank account to pay has meant that it's given a lot of small businesses security around when they're going to get money. So instead of waiting for someone to pay them, waiting for a check to arrive or waiting for someone to deposit money into their bank account, they've got the ability to actually pull money under agreement from that bank account. So cash flow has been a huge focus for a lot of business. So we've seen a huge adoption. We've also seen a lot of businesses that are more large and traditional that maybe use direct debit today and other payment methods. Take this time to really turn around and have a look at their internal processes, their operational efficiencies and the way they handle payment operations today more generally. And that's given us an opportunity to bring more efficiencies to their business and to work with them on a deeper level, whereas normally we wouldn't have had that opportunity. So it's been a little bit of a blessing in disguise in that way. I think if we look towards the future and where we're headed with open banking, NPP in Australia and other types of payment methods and more real time efficiencies around bank to bank payments globally. You know, we've seen a real adoption for consumers to move into more digital payment methods, whether it be a Neobank or to move to more digital banking or move into more subscription type lifestyle to remove that friction. And because I can't get to the shop, so they've had to adopt different ways to do all sorts of things. We've seen them adopt technologies that may have taken them years under different circumstances. So that's only, you know, propelling kind of where we're heading with our technical roadmap as well. So we've seen some real positives at the same time. You know, we support a lot of businesses that have really struggled through these times and we've supported them, you know, where we can. And when you handle payments across a broad base of different industries and verticals in any country, you definitely start to see, you know, industries that are affected and they're really filling the stress of these times. And out of that, we've seen some amazing pivots as well, where business, what's happening, change the way they're going to market or change their product even in some cases to suit more of this online kind of remote type market. And that's been really impressive to see. And so, yeah, it's a really, it's a great place for it. It's like being at the top of the hill, being able to see kind of the direction we're going in and the adoption that's being taken up based on the circumstances we're under, but also the businesses that have been able to adopt. And to your point around, you know, longer working days and the intensity of this period, you know, I'm a victim of that. I started my morning this morning at 7am. It's now almost 7pm. And I've left this room to get a wine, go to the toilet, have my husband move a plant in to make me look more professional for this exact recording. And I'm still, I've still got my pajama pants on. And, you know, it's been a tough day. I haven't got out of here. I haven't gone for a walk. I haven't seen my children today. And I think there are a lot of people in that situation. I know firsthand, you know, I've tried to condense my interactions with people to half an hour. I'm pretty sure everyone I know embraced COVID with one hour Zoom meetings back to back, like their face to faces. And didn't kind of have gaps in between, which in normal business life would happen. You'd be going to a meeting and then you'd have time to do things for yourself before the next one or plan. And I think many people embraced it like I did and just went into meeting to meeting to meeting. And now that's got to half hour meetings for me today that we're back to back. And it's, it's a different level of draining. And to Jamil's point, it's a different mindset. You know, I tell myself it's, it's not forever. It's today and I've had lots of great meetings and I'll block some time out tomorrow and I'll, you know, get to those things then. But it is challenging. And I think a lot of people that I speak to are struggling with the same thing around a how to be motivated and be how to structure their day in a way where they're still feeling like they're moving ahead. They're not in this, you know, zoom but meet a triangle and they still feel like they're completing things and getting things done and still having some time for themselves and and it's hard. It's hard. Sure. So Jamil, how have you sort of worked with the, you know, Caroline to ensure that there was some sort of normalcy in our lives. And you know, as she said, not going from one zoom screen to another. So, you know, and I mean, it's very hard for teams, honestly, you know, I can still understand. I mean, Caroline is more in an entrepreneurial role. She's sitting on the top. She has to manage a team. But imagine, you know, the youngest worker who just doesn't know what's hit him or her over here. And you know, he's working or she's working odd hours and doesn't know what, what, you know, and they want to live a life. They want to go out. They want to go to the park, movie, whatever. So how is it that, you know, you're patching it all together, you know, what Caroline's young person's goals are. Yeah, I think that what's really important and the work that I've been doing at GoCardless is to simply put on sessions. The people, which take them away from the, the immediacy of the to-do list and into a space of creating some time to think about not what they're doing, but how they're doing it. So a number of companies that I've been working with, my programs and content has been very similar. And it's really just giving people that time and space to think about what they're seeking to create rather than what they're seeking to do. And there's a really big difference between both of those premises that most of us will define success by the immediacy of our to-do list. And we'll write out lots of to-do lists and we'll plow through them. And it's a particularly busy people, a busy time for people. And I think there's a really big difference between productivity and activity and how we're productive now is quite different to how we were productive in the office. And if we try and replicate what we were doing in the office, in the home environment or remote working, we become active, but not necessarily productive. So for us to think about the value that we're creating for others, for us to think about being purposeful, for us to think about what we're seeking to create and achieve, it's probably the starting point. And I always talk about some energy management more than time management, time management is a bit of a red herring. And we need to be more mindful of our energy and then define our tasks in accordance to how we're feeling. Some days we're motivated and some days we're not. And that's becoming more and more pronounced for people. So more and more people are realizing that their energy levels are different to what they were in the real world. So what we need to do is to be more mindful of the context in which we're working now. And there's some nice tips and hints and tricks that will allow us to contextualize and frame and tell what we're seeking to achieve in this new environment. And it is a new now. It's not a new normal. There's nothing normal about it. It's a new now and things evolve all the time. And I think that our strategies must be based upon where we are in the present, knowing that things will change for the better, you know, at some stage and then we can modify our strategies again. So I try and provide sessions with people where they can come, engage, talk, share, learn from each other. No one has the answers at the moment. It's more about trying to ask the right questions. They're more than trying to give the right answers. Allow people to argue, debate and create outcomes which are bigger and better than what they would have created if they were simply sat on their own. I'm a great believer in connectivity and a big believer in shared experience. And so the more that we can come together and share more, the more we can look at our networks and partnerships and see ourselves as part of something bigger than the isolation in which many of us have been existed. We have a chance to understand things from new perspectives. And as new perspectives create new possibilities and new opportunities. So I always say that blame looks backwards and responsibility looks forwards. It's a universal law by the way for sport and business that blame looks backwards and responsibility looks forwards. I think it's really important to take responsibility for becoming more connected than what we and then what we could do at a very easy to work in isolation is very easy to drive our own parts of the business or to do our own to do list and take it off. We've got to take responsibility for for for still trying to make the connections and ensuring that we have the serendipity that we have in the office yet to make sure that we're getting a rounded perspective from many different voices and diverse opinions. And when we do that, not only do we feel stronger as a partnership and the team, but we also started to see things differently and hopefully better. Sure. Caroline, I mean, you know, delegation at any point of time for a leader is very important. And I mean now that, you know, in a work from home environment, how is it that you're really delegating and giving more ownership to your team members so that they can sort of be more in control? You know, as Jamil says, you have to give up control to gain control. So what is it? What is it that you're really delegating? What areas are you delegating the team to where you feel that, you know, sitting in their own homes, they should be able to take lead and be able to therefore do more? It's interesting because we're not in the office together or talking as much as we were before. You know, I'm not able to swing around in my chair and load someone up with something and they're not able to swing around and ask me a question and vice versa. And so I think the premise or the thing that underpins success of how we've been working together is that, one, you have to show empathy of what they may be feeling or going through as well. And so they're feeling exactly like you. They're feeling overwhelmed. They're not really worked out how to structure their day yet. They're being swamped by zooms. They're having the same kind of pressure than waking up with the to-do list, you know, that was as of yesterday and the day before. And so one is showing empathy and letting them know that sharing vulnerability and your own circumstances and saying, you know, this is how I'm feeling and letting them share with you how they're feeling as well. Because I think if you were just constantly delegating and weren't really understanding how they were coping and understanding their individual circumstances, I think you'd probably burn them out. And I think the second thing is, you know, a lot of people went into COVID because it's new to all of us, obviously, thinking there are things that personally they'd like to get out of this period. So, you know, organizations at an organizational level, there are some that are thinking we want to turn around and look at our processes and how we support remote working, for example. But at an individual level, people had their own goals that may be, you know, I want to make sure that I'm more organized now that I'm working remotely. I want to have a better at home environment for working or I want to, you know, incorporate more work-life balance into that. And so I think before delegating, showing empathy and understanding how they're coping. The second thing is understanding what their goals are for that period and how they're feeling and what their personal goals are for that period. And giving them the flexibility to allow that through this time. And then the third one is, you know, it takes a little bit more empowerment and trust when you're not connecting with someone daily or hourly or half daily. And it might be, you know, once a week or once a fortnight that you're connecting, you need to empower them to make decisions. You need to trust that they're going to do things without being in the office environment and having you around to question all the time or to having, you know, just bounce off. And so it's giving them the guidelines and the free license to make those decisions and know that you've got their back and that you're empowering them to do that. And that's been a really big part of GoCardless and how we work remotely. We've always had that culture anyway. But it's definitely been amplified during this period in that, you know, that's that project is yours. And I'm comfortable with the decisions that you make because I know that you understand the why and I know that you understand, you know, the outcome that we all desire. And I empower you because you're the right person for the role. That's why you're here. I empower you to make those decisions. But at the same time, I understand it's a hard time. I'm going to make all the allowances I can to help you get there and remove all the barriers that I can see them. I, as we come to the end of this interview, I would like for Caroline to tell me, tell me this and I mean, you mentioned about physical environments being a lot different. How is it that you're rewarding people who are doing good work? I mean, you know, obviously, when you're in physical places, you can take them out for dinner, you can, you know, give them a gift or just hug them, you know, and it makes them feel. Oh, yeah. But it's a hard time. So we're doing it in different ways. So we're celebrating as a team together. We get together often. So we've had trivia nights. We've celebrated birthdays together. We've had team breakfasts and lunches. We have a WhatsApp group, which we don't talk too much shopping. We try not to unless it's an exciting piece of news, but we just check in on each other and see how we're going. And we share personal pics like someone walking their new puppy or, you know, something crazy happened with a kid during a Zoom meeting, that kind of thing. So we stay connected that way. But we make sure that other parts of the business hear about the great things we're doing as well. And we share that through multitude of channels. But, you know, we've just tried to connect in other ways. And I can definitely recommend a trivia night. It was a lot of fun. And the team breakfasts are a lot of fun, but you just have to find other ways. And I've definitely upped the ante on how often I check in with them as individuals and have one of ones with them and not to make it about work. It's not an activity check in. It's not, you know, how you're going and how sales, it's more about how you're feeling, you know, let's go for a walk and talk together. That type of thing that's more personal, which I think is really important at the moment. Sure. You know, I mean, so as we conclude this, I would want you to give me the top three sort of takeaways to young executives today who who should and how do you think or what do you think they should learn from the sports arena and bring it to the boardroom or bring it to their office cubicle virtual as it may be so that they are able to today achieve what they want to and they're able to balance themselves out. You know, I can, I can totally relate to a 20, 25 year old guy who thinks that, you know, why the hell am I working all the time? So, you know, what, what are you going to tell these young executives that, you know, why they should be patient and what is it that they should be learning today from the world of sports? I'm 20, I'm older than 25 and I have the same thought why am I working every day. And so, yeah, I mean, there's lots of things that we can learn from sports. What three takeaways? You know, I would say that it's really important to be motivated by what we're seeking to achieve rather than what we're seeking to avoid. It's a very easy time for people to think about what they don't want to lose. So I don't want to lose his client, don't lose his account, don't lose this pitch, don't lose my position in the team. And many people are looking at maintaining a position or protectionism, and it's totally understandable. But I'm not sure whether some people will be held back by having that as a motivation when they could just be having it as a consideration. So let's be motivated by what we're seeking to achieve and create rather than what we're seeking to avoid. Let's think about things which, you know, are possible. Let's think about the new perspectives which we need in our business and our cultures to create something meaningful and sustainable in a world which is changing. And I think that companies who are trying to go back to normal have really been struggling. The companies who I've been working with who are seeing this as an opportunity to reimagine and reinvent have created a different type of business energy. Adam, so, you know, I always say if you have a rickety old house which burns down, there's no point in building another rickety old house. You know, and I feel that that's where we are at the moment in regard to our systems and structures that we've been living by. It's exactly the same for our businesses, no matter how small or how big. I mean, we've all been affected and impacted in some way. So, you know, let's think about what we're seeking to achieve and create rather than what we're seeking to avoid. And sports people do that brilliantly. Most of them are motivated by not wanting to lose. They're motivated by wanting to win. And there's a really big difference. It makes you think differently. It makes you feel differently. And ultimately, if you think and feel differently, you will act differently. The second thing that I would give you, I would say that being purposeful. So, ensuring there's a clarity on your purpose. So, purpose is never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. So, so people think of purpose as objectives, targets as a vision is not. It's a reason for being. It's a reason to get out of bed in the morning. And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. It's why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. It's because purpose is never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. So, let's find the stuff where we can chase our passion rather than our penchant. The stuff that we're truly motivated, energizing, enthused to do, and guide our business towards it. So, I say purposeful probably the second one. And the third, I would say, oh, I'm trying to mix three and four together, to be honest, really. This is important. I'll try and do it.