 If you're unable to play audio through your device, you can dial in, it tells it on the screen. Please ensure that your microphone is switched to mute to avoid background noise if you're not speaking, and that your camera is not in use unless you're presenting and want that on. Do ask questions, you're welcome to ask questions via the Teams chat at any point throughout the meeting. We'll try and get to those as we go and during the discussions and during the discussions, especially if you do have questions and want to ask them verbally, you can raise your hand using the Teams function as a little hand button. Click on that and we'll come to you as soon as possible. We'll be using Poll Everywhere throughout the meeting to get your thoughts and your feedback. We'll show the address later on, but if you want to get that ready now, if you visit pollev.com slash guide house, you can get that up on your mobile already or on a different browser. Please note that the meeting's being recorded. Lastly, as ever if you want to contact the GascozGreen program team direct, so you can buy GascozGreen at NAG Network 4. So, if we can move on to the next slide. As I said, thanks for joining us today. We really appreciate you joining us and participating in this advisory group, a role that we regard as really essential to Gasco's green, to improve the quality of the work we're doing, to question and to challenge and provide feedback, as well as to review our progress and discuss any risks or issues you see as personant. Since our first meeting back in May, as mentioned during that meeting, we needed to go through a process of reducing the number of advisory group members to give us a more manageable number but still a diverse group. One that we feel is representative and will help us keep to a high quality of work. This hasn't just been a process of getting a group together to say nice things about us. We want to be challenged and believe we have the right place. From the round about 130 people we had joined our first session. We asked who wanted to attend on a regular basis. As you can see on the next slide, our members who have been appointed to the advisory group are largely from representative organisations but provide a broad expertise and knowledge base so that we'll get that insight from a wide range of people. The list of people on the screen here are those who have been invited and who have kindly accepted the invitation. Thanks again for helping us through your participation. We've published the terms of reference for this group on our website. If you have any questions on those, please do drop the team a line. I'm going to take the rather ambitious task of trying to do introductions. I don't think we'll go around the room, the virtual room for introductions, but I will try my best to cover everyone. In the meeting today we have Zoe Giharo from Scots Advice, Scott Restrick from Energy Action Scotland, Amelie Trespass from Traverse, Dennis Van Poeveld from Energy Networks Australia, Richard Holsey from Energy Systems Catapult, Julie Cox from Energy UK, Frank Askov from Make UK, Jonathan Skirluk from NFU, Laura Brown from Newcastle University, Barnaby Wharton from Renewable UK, Charles McAllister from UK Offshore Oil and Gas, Jesse Schaaf from REAL Green Gas Certification Scheme, Ian Calvert from the ADE, Lucy Richie from EUS, Steven Duranta from Interconnector UK, Seb VanDor from the BSI, Neil Atkinson from iGEM, Celia Grieves from UK Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association, Tom Nolan from Lead City Council, from Off-GEM, I think we have Peter Bingham and Mo Khalif from Welsh Government, Ron Lovelland from Northern Irish Government, Fred Fraser, Alex Howe and Harriet Rees from Bayes. We should have Sophie Sudworth from Scottish Energy Power, Energy Networks, David Joff from CCC and Ross Anderson from ICOM. Have I missed anyone? Hi, you've got James Diggle here from the CBI, he's standing in Fabdol Kamara, who's on leave this week. Hi, James. Sorry to miss you. John Graves from Coventry University. Hi, John. Hello. Great, Bob of the Daily from BSI. Hi, Maria. Great. Apologies for missing you. Sorry, and James Walker from Camtras. Hi. Hi, James. Oh, hi, Amy. Great. And from ENA, myself, Tom Coller and Katie Harrison and Matt Hindle from the Gas Networks, Lorna Millington from Cadent, David Gill from Northern Gas Networks. David Jones from Cadent will be joining shortly. And we also have Richard Riley from Element Energy who's going to give a presentation later today. So I think that's everyone on the line. So as you can see on the next slide on the screen, we are holding our second advisory group meeting today with the third one scheduled for November. Thinking about our previous meeting, I wanted to note that we have listened to your feedback and taken that on board. In terms of priorities, government to carbonisation policy was identified at our last meeting in the feedback survey we ran after that as the discipline area most relevant to people's interests within this advisory group. And we're looking to maintain focus in this area. There was also a desire to have panel debates and discussions run through Gasco's green and recognising these priorities. We did hold a panel discussion on the 1st of July on the government's consultation on the future support for low carbon heaves. I'm very pleased that many of you joined that session. In terms of the frequency of our communications, most people indicated they would like to receive announcements as they happened. So we've adopted this approach and will keep this going forward. The other thing to note is that we did publish a list of questions and answers following the conversations and discussions we had at the last meeting. So those are available. If there's questions that come up today that don't get answered during the session, we'll again follow that approach after this meeting. So in terms of a sort of progress update on the next slide, you can see that we published a number of deliverables over the last few weeks. I'll say a little bit about our recent work and what we have coming up in the next quarter. And you'll hear more about this and have a chance to comment on this as we go through this morning. So in May we published deliverable 1.1, the zero carbon commitment, along with the report on hydrogen production costs to consumers. In July as part of deliverable 2.1 and our work on gas quality and safety, we held workshop with iGEM to support them in their consultation on changes to gas safety management regulations. As part of deliverable 2.2, we held a workshop with National Grid on hydrogen deep blending. And we've recently published a piece of analysis on the emissions reductions delivered to date through the iron mains risk reduction program and those emissions that will be reduced out to 2032 as that program continues. Coming up on the next slide you can see that looking ahead to the next quarter we are developing a hydrogen transformation plan that will demonstrate how networks would convert to transport and distribute hydrogen and how this would impact households industry in the power sector. We're also developing a whole systems approach to decarbonisation that we will publish in September. And coming up we are continuing our connection standardisation work and we'll communicate news on this through our newsletter soon. The networks are also continuing to develop local, national and regional pathways studies to demonstrate the role of gas in the net zero context. Cayden and Electricity Northwest have recently published a study they undertook for Greater Manchester Combined Authority which is a really interesting example of that whole systems approach and that's available on the E&W website. And two further deliverables we'll hear more about today that are coming up the Gas Transport Pathways study along with our work on grid capacity options which we'll be looking to take forward later this year. So with all that in store I'd like to introduce Michael Stork, Associate Director at Guidehouse who's going to take you through the agenda and facilitate today's meeting. Michael. Thank you very much Tom and welcome also from my side. I'm quite impressed we have so many participants early August in this meeting so I take it as a high commitment from all of you to make sure that the Casco Screen is successful. Last time I think we had quite an interactive session and let's aim to have an equally interactive session today. What we'll be doing is I think this is more or less closer of the introduction part but what we'll be doing is sharing with you updates on recent deliverables mainly for Workstream 1.1 on a zero carbon commitment and hydrogen cost to consumers and on Workstreams 2.1 and 2.2 strengthening the case for gas safety and grid scale gas separation trials and most of this session will be focused around talking you through the plans that Workstream 3.3 has and how they have been going about these in transport and for Workstream 4.2 talking about the analysis that has been done on OptiNet grid capacity options which is making sure that biomethane produced can also be put in the net and then we'll have Randolph Brezier from ENA give presentation on the open network and the electricity equivalent of gas goes green to see how that relates to the gas goes green work that we are doing because obviously gas and electricity and the future of both are interconnected. Again in this session I would like to encourage you to be interactive as Tom already said feel free to put any questions or comments in the chat at any moment feel also free to raise your hand if you want to make a more verbal remark or just make the remark if at some point it becomes a bit too crowded with remarks I'll ask to structure differently but for now let's just be very interactive maybe we can go to the next slide because in terms of being interactive part of the interaction will structure through pull EV so what I would like to ask you to do is to go to pull EV and log in there using the address that I put in the chat now so www.pullev.com slash guidehouse and let's start with an easy question where the question is what are you grateful for this week please put your answer in one word because we will be building a word cloud and think a bit what you are grateful for this week later we go more into the details of Casco's screen so this can be work related but this can also be just something more personal it's anonymous anyhow but let's get the interaction going by sharing what everybody is grateful for this week that can be anything so I see the first answers coming in I'll also put mine in so I guess I take it that the weather in the UK is at least equally good as the weather in the Netherlands is with sunshine, sunny, summer all scoring points, weather scoring points I also see flip flops interested in what's happening there supportive colleagues I guess I see help out, eat out I think that's quite smart to also use the dashes in between, childcare colleagues, friends a lot on the weather health very important to be thankful of childcare pups open again, trees football balconies, nicely associated with the weather flowers I guess I most likely missed a few but hopefully not too much so thanks all for putting this in, are there people who are still finding out how to get into the poll EV because the next question is going to be more Casco's green orientated so if you need help then let us know over the chat, this is also a good moment to introduce my colleague Leonard Sietsma who is also from Guidehouse and supporting the facilitation of this workshop I take it that all who could vote have provided input so let's close this one and go to the next question and that requires some introduction so as you know also from the interaction that the ENA has with you on this Casco's green topic, ENA is really looking into working with stakeholders on the energy transition now obviously ENA seeks cooperation for that, that's also why this advisory group is there but really cooperation could have so many different forms that ENA is keen to hear your thoughts on any future collaboration that you would like to see as well next to Casco's green and you can take this question from any perspective that you like so you can think about specific partners that even provide the names or you can think about collaboration with different types of partners or collaboration, future collaboration on new topics or if you like to future collaboration on different substances that could be transported through networks so basically any future collaboration that you would see and let's just make a long list of this list so any future collaboration which you would like to see ENA undertaking, please put it in the POEV question now, I see the first input coming in second one, decarbonisation research innovation centre and also the offshore renewable energy catapult, rapid progress on increased biomethane contribution ENA with the NFU what else, any future collaboration that you would like to see public consultation on programme outputs local energy plans, very good the answers keep on getting in, please continue electric vehicle companies to collaborate with what else, any future collaboration that you would like ENA to see ENA undertake heavy industries, non-electrical energy networks the end users of gas, what else any future collaboration that you would like to see DEFRA on air quality working with gas companies what other future collaboration would you like to see from ENA of gas companies public engagement, for example dialogue deliberative etc on successful transition appliance manufacturers any other collaboration that you would like to see ENA with DCLG Tom, to prepare you a bit, I'm going to ask you to give a brief reaction on these suggestions once the full is closed SIPA's suppliers combustion engineering associations electrolyzer companies you will be busy at all islands, any other future collaboration that you would like to see port-centric freight logistics large sea ports, NP-11 which means 11 LEPs in the north of England, SIPA suppliers smart local energy systems across gas heat, power, transport environmental regulations on NOx closure work on the use of gas in buildings and specifically industrial and commercial uses energy energy any last suggestions for future collaboration that you would like to see local energy plans at the heart of Optium's RIO2 work, heat pump manufacturers installers, any last one engagement with most impacted in society to achieve a fair transition, integration of end to end hydrogen as part of the wider system, net zero solutions, net zero north base green grant program okay I get the impression that with at least some of these or that type you are already working Tom, let's not go into the details of all of that, I assume that you will be looking carefully at all the at all the inputs that we got and take a decision on whether you are already working with these or whether that is interesting to start pursuing, but which are the ones that really stand out, where you really thought hey these were kind of new ideas for me Tom yeah thanks for all the suggestions here I mean a lot of really good ideas and as we develop our plans for gas goes green in 2021 it's certainly important that we'll consider these and other possible collaborations as ways to expand the project to make sure that the work we are doing is informed by those of you on the line and some of these different opportunities here so across the board I think these are really useful ideas I'm not going to pick favourites or particularly interesting things because I think they are all important and worthy of further thought I thought one thing that did stand out is the air quality piece and working with DEF for on that I think that's quite an interesting point and something that I know the networks have been thinking of and something that gas goes green could take forward so I said I'm not going to pick favourites but I picked one okay let's leave it at that one favourite then but I think your key message is that you think there's a lot of good ideas that you will consider I thank you all for being so interactive and providing so many ideas in this poll obviously that makes this discussion let's continue with some deliverables that are out and to bring you up to speed with these and once again important to remind you if you have any questions, if you have any comments raise your hands or just type the question or comment into the chat it's also fine to comment on each other's chat in the chat so let's again while the speakers are talking continue to be interactive the purpose here is really to bring you up to speed with completed deliverables the first one being on their carbon commitments and Tom maybe you can talk us through the zero carbon commitments what you have been doing there I think the link has been published has been shared in the invites to the publication but what is it that you can share on this please Sure, thanks Mikael so our zero carbon commitment deliverable 1.1 for gas goes green is published as Mikael said it's up on our website the £900 million of investment that brings gas network companies propose to deliver between 2021 and 2026 really to lay the foundations for the work required to produce the zero carbon gas grid it sets out how the networks will reduce emissions from day to day business operations and gas shrinkage as part of that commitment the deliverable summarises the planned and proposed network innovation projects that provide evidence and the learning that will be required to deliver the emissions reductions and the accelerated decarbonisation that is required and the deliverables has set the necessary activity across four different areas so these are new hydrogen networks where the planned and proposed projects are really about delivering the infrastructure needed for industrial uses of hydrogen as well as the first hydrogen domestic consumer pilots there is activity on hydrogen blends so here the projects are focused on blends to increase the amount of hydrogen with the natural gas currently used in our networks to gradually replace it and on developing the commercial regime for blending there is a third area on repurposing the network for hydrogen where the projects are focused on ensuring that both the existing gas network and appliances are ready for the use of hydrogen and this includes pilot projects on the distribution networks repurposing of transmission assets and hydrogen in multiple occupancy buildings and there are a fourth area of cross cutting projects where investment will deliver the wider changes needed for decarbonising the gas system and here the projects that we have set out require gas market reform new network control systems and flexible reinforcement there and those would be for biomethane as well as for hydrogen release at the same time as this deliverable was the hydrogen cost of consumer research and I think we are now passing to David Gill director of stakeholder relations at Northern Gas Networks to say a few words about this work Thank you Tom and good morning everybody I will just take a couple of moments to go through the cost to customers work that we have carried out on this it's great to see so many people and it's a shame we had to reduce that from 130 that just goes to show how much of interest is there and it's great to see the names on the list of people I do know and colleagues from the GDNs including Olly who you forgot to mention Tom but I'll just put that in there and it's great to see the focus is on that thing about family and health and things as well and Covid brought a lot of that to the fore so thank you for that I'm going to turn the next four or five minutes just going through some high level insights on these cost curves so it was released in May through the Gasco's wean program which you know and the reason being there was various international reports forecasting the future of hydrogen and we thought there was a requirement for a start of one in the UK the intention was to provide a UK specific cost curve for hydrogen to understand the potential of the cost reductions over time so that was the point of view that's the important point when that benefit would kick in the key output of the report was to provide an estimate of the total funding support required to develop the hydrogen economy in the UK the key assumptions made in there it was policy and regulation diagnostic there was no support incorporated into the analysis there was no use to be government objective the preference was to for green hydrogen production over blue there's an assumption an excess power generation and battery and other storage to be used for production of hydrogen green hydrogen is assumed to be renewable by renewable electricity no allowance has been made for any fossil fired plants etc so we've also chosen to rely on heavily accepted industry assumptions so we set quite a high hurdle there in terms of the conclusions from the report it's the hydrogen is the essential component of the UK's future network there's no realistic scenario where the UK can achieve net zero carbon emissions without both blue and green hydrogen playing a key role particularly for sectors such as industry, transport and heat that's also been acknowledged by the CCC and also some growing international momentum there both blue and green hydrogen are required at scale we've seen that blue hydrogen is the gateway for green hydrogen so both blue and green will be required to meet the 2050 needs but right now blue hydrogen is cheaper than green so we need to capitalize on this to kickstart the hydrogen economy in the UK and deliver the rapid decarbonisation at scale this will be supported by government's target of having one CCUS project operational by 2025 and with further rollouts run up to 2050 the key conclusion is also we expect significant cost reductions for green hydrogen if you've seen the report which I've taken you all have you'll see it going to cut over on about the 2030 I think the report's slightly optimistic in that regard and when we look at the data that's in the 2020 FES that will move slightly out further a year or two so we will be looking at reviewing the data in there green hydrogen as a set produced from renewable power would rapidly become cheaper we're hearing that from industry as well we expect green hydrogen from excess renewables to become cost competitive due to capex reductions and fall in wholesale electricity prices so as I said before the cost reduction trajectory for green hydrogen expect to be similar to the solar and offshore wind over the past decade and I've heard that mooted before however prompt investment will unlock net savings the estimate that's about 182 billion investment will require to develop a hydrogen economy but by 2045 the UK will be a net beneficiary of that investment the NPV around about 2040 2045 and by 2050 the sooner we invest by 2050 the UK will net benefit for customers of about 89 billion so the next steps quickly will be to as I said before to look up the update of the report following the FES 2020 and we welcome questions you may have and suggestions you have especially on the assumptions that we've made in the report so any feedback I'm going to say to Tom but to the ENA group would be very welcome thank you okay and feedback there is in the chat thank you for your presentation both that was very insightful Dennis is wondering that it's a big call to say that there's no realistic scenario to reach net zero without hydrogen I'm not sure Tom, David or whether you just want to take the feedback now or whether you want to comment on the feedback and the questions that are given so I think underlying what Dennis is saying is what is behind your conclusion that there's no realistic scenario to reach net zero without hydrogen is that something you want to do now or whether you want to get back to that later Tom David I think it's worth discussing this to an extent now Mikael it's I think we would agree it is what numerous studies are indicating and certainly it's the view that the gas networks have I think the question is perhaps what is the extent of the role that hydrogen is going to play and the make up of blue and green hydrogen within that mix questions on that are still to play for but one of the things that the CCC report very eloquently is that as we move from the 80% reduction to 100% the importance of hydrogen really became more clear in that and then I'm going to combine three questions in one so please pay attention Scott starts with do we need a regulated balance moving forward between blue and green hydrogen and John Graves adds to that what is the cost difference between blue and green hydrogen and Barnaby Wharton adds to that that the official wind sector deal where we published publishing data on cost direction for green hydrogen in due course where most seem to think that a green will be cost competitive by 2030 so any reflection on how to deal with blue and green and the cost difference between these two and maybe regulating the ratio between these two Tom but Matt do you want to pick that up or do you want me to have a look at that from the report I'll respond in the first instance David but do come in if you want I mean from my reading of the report the hydrogen cost to consume a report I think what really came out in there is that the cost profile of hydrogen is very much going to depend on the that sort of relationship that David described or blue hydrogen really opening up and enabling green hydrogen and the two do have that relationship there and ultimately when you are considering this from the cost perspective born by the consumer I think it's important to consider how we can ensure the bill payer the lowest price there whether would there be a sort of regulated limit on the amount of blue with the amount of green I think that the limit would be on pathway that was compliant with net zero rather than restricting gas that's being produced on any other basis that would be what made sense to me OK then there's a question again let me know whether you want to do that now or later whether one of the two if you can expand on what you mean by relying on industrial assumptions so we have our work out here with examples question from Fiona Thompson is the question clear Tom yeah in terms of the assumptions the assumptions in the cost to consumer research are all published and it's laid out there and the intention was to be very transparent with these and if there are any questions about the assumptions that are in there as David mentioned we're going through an iteration of this work so if we can refine or use better data for that it will only improve the usefulness of the research in its new version so please do look through those assumptions and get in touch if you have new data to input into that process that's really an important point and it is only with the groups feedback on those assumptions the sensitivity of the assumptions it's a dead easy read even for people like me but page 61 onwards shows you the assumptions we've made page 70 have a quick look at that and feedback because we haven't got all the answers but it's certainly in the right direction and we can talk about the the fares at length there in terms of the four kind of scenarios there it's not about hydrogen versus electricity or anything it's looking at this from a customer's point of view and what the cost of curves would look like and could look like if there was investment now in both blue and green hydrogen and then going back to the assumptions Barnaby, Wharton also one does whether you're making any assumptions about future carbon prices for blue or grey hydrogen we need a carbon price to make the blue business guess are you making any assumptions? That's really good point Barnaby, the carbon price assumptions is something we are looking at to amend in the next update and we're looking for feedback on that and another one which is an assumption that's made is on the cost of abated electricity so any feedback on that would be really welcome Okay and then more process wise Chris Gendt wonders what the timeline is for the revision of the report in light of the FES 2020 Yeah as soon as Ashley comes back off holiday we'll be getting straight on with it no seriously we've got the fares now we understand that we're looking at the data behind it we just need to get the team together so I don't see that being much looking for Tom to comment on this and workload I think that's something we can do in parallel with everything else so I would think probably early September Tom would that be realistic? Yeah I think that sounds good as you say it's an important piece that we want to get out there Okay and then I see three more questions coming in and I also still have one from Julie on my list any further feedback in the process after this session Oliver wonders he basically says that he expected an economic green blue balance will emerge to achieve a net zero outcome and the cost of storage and value of flexible production will have a bearing on that balance I am assuming that you are taking that into account is that correct? Yes I think that's in there That might be a response to the earlier question in terms of a sort of green and blue the green and blue ratio Okay I think so and then Ron Loveland enters that hydrogen is the real rock star of the energy transition quoting fellow Dutchman Franz Timmermans from the European Commission when they launched their hydrogen strategy so I think that's also an interesting input to take into consideration and Jonathan Squarelock remarks that in his interim report the zero carbon commission recommends 50 pounds per ton CO2 by 2025 rising to 75 by 2030 so I think that is a helpful input to consider going to the last question which is Julie's question which is no longer specific on hydrogen but more in general on the zero carbon commitment the question is how is it impacted by off-gems RIO2 draft determination Tom Thanks Julie it's a really important question and one that I think we need to continue to think about as the determinations are finalised at the end of this year the zero carbon commitment sets out the network ambition and what we see is those necessary foundations for achieving that zero I think if that's to an extent limited by what we're able to do in the next regulatory period then that will pose some big challenges but I think off-gems are very supportive of a lot of the network proposals and we're working very closely with them to make sure that work going forward is as required to achieve net zero also is ensuring customer value for money so it's a work in progress I would say Okay thank you very much Tom and David and thank you to all the participants bringing in comments suggestions or asking questions let's go to the next deliverable that has been delivered and that actually is a webinar part of work stream two on gas quality and safety and in this case the subject is strengthened the case for gas safety and management and regulations and amendments Tom what can you say about this webinar Yeah thanks Wickel I'll just be brief on this so on the 9th of July Gas Goes Green and IGM hosted a webinar on IGM's peer review consultation for gas quality and changes to the gas safety management regulations 130 individuals attend that and the objectives for that session were to understand the timeline for GSMR changes for IGM's gas quality standard to understand the evidence base developed to date and any gaps in the understanding to identify those and to discuss those and the idea being that with the consultation period closing at the end of July that provided an opportunity for engagement on that topic during the webinar IGM and several technical experts set out the reasoning and the evidence behind the proposed changes including the changes to raising the upper and lowering the bottom end of the Wobby Index and the removal of the incomplete combustion factor and city index as well as a change to oxygen content During the webinar the next steps were also set out on how the proposed changes would move GSMR Schedule 3 into a new IGM standard to create a framework of future changes and possibly that's a process that could be followed for other changes required in terms of regulations. So a final word on this is that the recording of the webinar is up on our website so if you weren't able to make that do try and give it a watch as I said there was lots of expertise and a really high caliber discussion it's well worth the watch. And what were your key takeaways, what was the most important you learned Tom? I think what really stood out was the amount of evidence that's been accumulated as part of this work over the last three or four years. A huge amount of very detailed testing looking at impacts on industry and in the domestic setting. Okay thanks, are there any other questions on this webinar by anyone attending? Take that as a no so I'll see something coming in We need rapid progress that's the comment I see on this topic from Jonathan Skirlock thanks. Let's continue with the next one which is another webinar on grid scale trials of gas separation and there I would like to ask Daniel Stewart from National Grid to talk us through what happened at that webinar please. Many thanks So on the 17th of July Gasco's Green hosted a hydrogen deep blending workshop and we had a really good turnout with around 85 interested attendees we had a range of speakers from across the industry including an update from National Grid on the deep blending work to date and the collaborative effort with the GDNs and Costain on their techno economics study. Norman Carrere from Prectifract gave us an offshore perspective and talked about how this kind of technology is in use today and has been for a very long time and perhaps there's some learning from offshore that we can bring on shore. We had speakers from NGN, Progressive Energy, Cayden and RWE on the hydrogen use cases so for domestic heat, industry, transport and power and Keefo and talked about the H21 project and the consumer research that's been carried out Adam Badley from Progressive Energy talked about the role of blending in the clusters and in particular the West cluster and the fact that deep blending may have a particular role for industrial customers outside of those clusters. David Jains explored the role that hydrogen might play in decarbonising heavy goods vehicles, buses, rail and large passenger vehicles and the purity needed for hydrogen fuel cells versus that which comes from the repurposed pipelines and Phil Cahill from RWE talked about power customers as being sensitive customers but they don't want to be and they want to be involved in some of these demonstrations but in particular there is a need to get the commercials right in this space. We also had an overview of National Grid's proposed future grid project which is currently going through the network innovation competition process. NGN gave an overview and an update on the H21 project and SGN shared the opportunities to the local transmission system. We ran the webinar as an interactive session where people could ask questions at any time and we periodically stopped to address some of those questions asking the speakers and their thoughts and to answer some of those but we also asked the audience three particular questions so that we could draw on our stakeholders and where to go next. The first question that we asked was what did people think about the benefits of deep blending in just a handful of words? And the image on the left hand side of this slide shows a word cloud with some of those responses with the larger words representing the most popular responses such as rationality, reducing the transition risk and the one I particularly like, it can provide an inclusive transition came up as some of the most popular and we discussed how deep blending might provide us options and that we're not saying that it's definitely the way forward but if it can work at scale and of course we can tolerate then it provides to use Tony Green's words at all in the arsenal. The second question that we explored were the challenges with deep blending so based on what the audience already knew and what they'd heard already through the webinar itself and cost scale and complexity came up as some of those key challenges on people's minds and one of the questions we were asked was had we explored who pays and this hadn't yet been a focus as we'd mainly focused on technical issues but it's something that we'd need to engage with the market on and how those costs would be distributed. We also asked about other opportunities that we need to consider and this was more of an open question to the audience and we gained some really valuable feedback and suggestions for us to think about and the opportunity to minimize the amount of deep blending and came up as a topic that is important especially if it's expensive. Other comments included the need to develop technical standards and legislation to facilitate the transition. We need to ensure the equipment on the network is flexible enough to accommodate a range of blends. We need to explore ownership and operation of the technology the need for storage support variation in blends and all of innovation and reducing costs and development of the supply chain. So we explored a lot of topics with a lot of speakers and there was a lot of engagement from the audience so much for us to think about. And as Tom said on the previous deliverable we also have the webinar on the ENA's website for anybody who wants to go back and listen to that one in the future. Thank you, Daniela. I see two questions or actually a comment and a question starting with the comments from Ian Calvert basically saying deep blending was interesting and attractive but intimidatingly expensive. Any reflection you want to give on that, Daniela? Absolutely and this is something that we'll need to explore in a lot more detail and what the right technology will be for different parts of the network if it is something that we can achieve. But cost is one of those things that we're going to have to work on bringing down and this is where innovative solutions might come in. As I say it's not necessarily the only option for the future but it's an option we're considering and if we can make it economic then it's something that can provide that flexibility for different customers. Thanks and then a question from Squadz-Ristrik. Asking we'll move to a gradual increase in mixing methane and hydrogen within the wider gas network require an acceleration of any old CI network assets to PP replacement lines? Potentially. So I think again this is something that we're going to be exploring across the whole network both on the distribution side as well as the transmission side. The future grid project that I briefly mentioned is going to be setting up an offline test rig to understand the impact on the infrastructure itself and the different types of assets and we're taking a range of assets pipelines as well as other types of assets and putting them in a single place so that we can explore how hydrogen at different blends up to 100% is going to impact those assets and what that means for the existing assets on the network. Okay. Thank you very much. That was very concise and insightful summary of the stages of this work stream. So thank you very much, Danielle. Let's continue with the work that is still very much ongoing and where we have more specific questions on input also. Starting with the future of gas in transport where I think heavy vehicles have previously not seen as much focus on light passenger vehicles and gas has an important role to play there also for trains and shipping and to assist this, the Gasco's Green, we look into a practical transition pathways from fossil basins renewable gas today to a net zero transport system giving manufacturers and fleet operators the confidence to invest in green sustainable transport options and for that I would like to ask David Jones from Cadence and Richard Riley from Element Energy to talk us through what is going on. So go ahead. Thank you very much, Michael. I'm Richard Riley. I'm principal consultant at Element Energy and I've been managing this piece of work. Can we go to the next slide? So what I'm going to be presenting today is a series of narratives that we've been putting together to understand the role of green gas in decarbonising the GB economy. These narratives are part of a much larger piece of work that we're currently undertaking. You can see there on the right the steering group for this piece of work includes UK and Irish, Gas TNOs and National Grid and the aim is to build up a kind of detailed narrative of how we transition from where we are today to net zero in 2050 focusing on the role of green gas and trying to understand in quite a lot of detail the potential role of transport as a way to accelerate the uptake of green gas at a wider scale. Next slide please. Can we have the next slide? I think we've gone two slides. Perfect, thank you. So this piece of work has done detailed modelling of pathway to net zero across the economy. We've got a scenario looking at high electrification and a scenario looking at high hydrogen. Today I'm going to mostly be focusing on our high hydrogen scenario. Next slide please. So one of the interesting points that we're trying to focus on in this study is the role of multiple different sectors in facilitating the roll out of green gas and how the different sectors link together. In this slide we're just trying to summarise at a kind of very high level how we think this will work. So today we're looking at accelerating the uptake of biomethane in transport for the use of long-haul vehicles and for direction injection into the grid for heating. And that really needs to see a large acceleration in the production of biomethane. For hydrogen we're currently seeing first kind of step with hydrogen supply for cars and buses and that is beginning to build some experience and scale. What we're hoping is that by the kind of mid to late 2020s we might see the first hydrogen use in the industrial sector. This will be the first big step change in hydrogen production volumes for down costs and demonstrating CCS. By the 2030s we're expecting to see biomethane peaking in transport and heating but hydrogen really beginning to pick up in volumes. So in the transport side we're benefiting from the scale coming from industry. So we're likely to see transport operations focusing around industrial clusters and the growth in demand of hydrogen for heating means that we're beginning to see the rollout of hydrogen through the gas grid which again begins to benefit transport as we gain the option to access hydrogen at refuelling stations through the gas network. So you can see that scale and timing between the different industries is very important in terms of producing a successful hydrogen rollout. Next slide please. So just focusing on the supply side in the next two slides looking at hydrogen here. So we expect initial hydrogen to be green hydrogen delivered to small refuelling stations with by compressed tube trailer. As we move through to the late 2020s, we see the early opportunities for blue hydrogen big scale up in green and blue hydrogen and the ability to supply to kind of medium size HGV hydrogen stations. Into the 2030s we finally gain the option to have hydrogen refuelling stations connected to pipeline and that's kind of the first opportunity where we can have hydrogen refuelling stations that are kind of at the full size we would expect in the long term for HGVs. And then long term in the 2040s complete conversion of the gas network to hydrogen would further simplify the connection of hydrogen refuelling stations to the network. Next slide please. So again on the supply side for biomethane interesting biomethane for the HGV sector has picked up significantly in the last couple of years. So expecting biomethane used to ramp up very quickly in the next five years and to meet the demand by 2030 we need to be making use of most of the available UK waste and residue feedstocks. Biomethane by itself is unlikely to meet the full demand from heat and transport so there's also requirement to scale up the bio-SNG pathway and we expect bio-SNG to really be meeting growth in demand post 2030. In the long run we see biomethane and bio-SNG demand in transport and heating falling away in the 2040s as it's replaced by hydrogen. So the long-term role of biomethane and bio-SNG is seen as an input to reformation production of hydrogen with CCS and also in the power sector. Next slide please. On the demand side I'm just going to summarize a couple of the different sectors here I'm focusing on HGVs. The HGV market is currently relatively early stage of development still a lot of work needed on both battery electric and hydrogen technology to make them suitable for operation. So the next five years we'll see a lot of development in those technologies and leaves an opening in the early years for the use of biomethane to help decarbonisation. The key transition or key event that allows the high hydrogen scenario to occur is the falling cost of hydrogen fuel and this is really triggered from the late 2020s when we see the first blue hydrogen coming from industrial clusters. So that event in industry is really important to allowing long-haul hydrogen truck projects to take off in areas around those clusters. To meet the 2050 net zero target the sale of polluting petrol and diesel trucks needs to end between 2035 and 2040 and that means that the use of biomethane in the sector is assumed to have a 15 to 20 year life after which we'd see a phase out and a complete switch over to zero emission tailpipe options. Next slide please. On the industry side again industries that are very early stage of development there's potential for several industry sectors to use either electricity or hydrogen for decarbonisation. The key things that swings the market towards our high hydrogen scenario is the kind of successful initial hydrogen projects in the late 2020s in the really large industrial clusters in the UK. This demonstrates scale and helps to bring down the cost of CCS and that really triggers a much wider roll out of hydrogen use in industry. We also see here a link to heating so if heating with hydrogen takes off and we've got hydrogen use across the gas network this then allows smaller industry clusters and individual industry sites to access hydrogen through the gas network in a way that wouldn't be feasible if the local demand was limited to a single industry site. Final slide please. I believe there may be a delay between me switching between slides and you actually seeing it. That's perfect, thank you. Again here heating is that at a relatively early stage of development there's still significant work to be done which means there isn't kind of a clear technology winner between electricity and hydrogen. The heating industry we expect to benefit from 10 years of hydrogen development in transport and in industry so that by 2030 significant production scale up has occurred and hydrogen prices have come down and looks a much more attractive field option. Heating is would be by far the largest hydrogen demand out of our three industries and so it's heating that is really the driver of the conversion of the gas grid so that would initially be through blending and with a long term focus on a pure hydrogen grid. So heating basically relies on industry and transport to get the hydrogen industry started but then really takes over driving up the volumes bring down the price which then benefits transport and industry in lower prices and better hydrogen distribution through the gas network. Thank you very much everybody that was a kind of quick overview of how we see the different pieces of the narrative fitting together and we would love to hear your feedback on how you think that narrative is likely to go. Thank you Richard I think that was very illustrative of your thinking of the narratives. Let's first take some questions from the participants and then ask some questions to the participants using POEV again. The first question is from Jonathan and I think it's helpful if you could introduce the question yourself Jonathan. So Jonathan Scurlock National Farmers Union and Energy Policy Analyst in a way particularly interested in the short term in the opportunities for agricultural biomethane but clearly we need to look towards the future of a heavily decarbonised world where I think we're seeing interesting progress both in the potential applications of hydrogen from electrolysis perhaps to make synthetic fuels the aviation sector is likely to be looking at this and I wonder whether there should be or could be a significant role for a third generation of methane gas in the gas network in the form of just totally synthetic methane perhaps using previously captured carbon. Yes that's an excellent point. I think it's something we certainly plan to add to our narrative as a kind of high level point although we don't kind of specifically have time to go into that in detail but it is certainly true there's a few sectors the marine sector we expect to probably be making significant use of hydrogen or a hydrogen-based fuel such as ammonia aviation will also need synthetic fuel produced preferably from either carbon captured from the air or a biomass source so that yes certainly a potential large demand there. And then I think Jonathan you say that the agricultural feedstock supply could supply much more biomethane than Richard is assuming. Jonathan? Yes that is indeed the case we are modelling that we believe there is quite an appetite as we move agriculture is going through an enormous transition at the moment with Brexit and a new domestically based agricultural policy and our arable sector is very interested in the prospect of growing more anaerobic digestion feedstocks within more diverse arable crop rotations they need that certainty of long-term offtake in order really to be able to manage the risk of farming without subsidy in volatile food markets. Okay so maybe there is a potential to follow up offline on the different assumptions that you are using to avoid this coming to modelling discussion but I think that's very helpful feedback. Going to Dennis, Dennis von Peifelder wonders whether it's realistic to expect bioenergy supply to come from Europe given that they will be going through similar decarbonisation strategies and will want to use their own bioenergy locally. Richard or David? Yes, yeah we completely agree I think the biomethane bios and G slides does try to focus our supply purely around UK feedstocks there's a comment there about potential use of some European feedstocks around about 2030 and that would really just to be to try and fill a gap between when we see kind of biomethane reaching its peak and when we see bios and G technology being ready to grow so in the long term and the short term we would focus on purely UK based feedstocks but we do see this gap in meeting demand in kind of the early 2030s. And then Julie wonders whether you consider making hydrogen from biomethane with carbon capture and utilization and storage to deliver negative emissions from biomethane falls? Yes, this again is perfectly possible so the biomethane at the moment we've said in the long term would go to gas power plants with CCS it could go to reformation to produce hydrogen with CCS I think both options are perfectly possible so I guess what we're trying to say is that the use of biomethane as a direct fuel in transport will fall although as a kind of raw fuel to the energy system which then ends up as electricity or hydrogen which could be used in transport it would not fall so it's kind of a clarity about direct versus indirect though I guess which we can work on. Okay and Scott takes a comparable perspective by wondering this model appears to be the idea that biomethane is a transitional energy product and that once blue and green hydrogen generation and transportation is a mature sector that would naturally displace the biomethane industry this is only the case in certain sectors or across all sectors in your thinking Richard. So for this we've really taken our lead from government position which is that the government is certainly seems to be pushing for the case where we've got zero emission kind of tailpipe options wherever possible and that things like biomethane get focused in large plants where they can be connected to CCS to provide the large amount of negative emissions required to meet the CCC pathways. So we've kind of taken our input from that and tried to follow that as closely as possible assuming that biomethane is transitionary in the kind of end-use sectors but has a long term role in the kind of energy production sector. Okay and Richard Bess, my colleague wonders whether you also looked at hybrid heating systems in either the high electricity or the high hydrogen scenarios. Yes we have got hybrid heating systems in our high electrification scenario but we focus on hydrogen boilers in our high hydrogen scenario. Okay and then I see Tom wondering what thoughts is being given about how a strategic network of refuelling stations should be developed. Yes so we look at this in quite a lot of detail and this is mapped out in our final report. So what we see is happening is because we think the large industrial clusters around the country will be a key stepping stone in terms of increasing the production volumes of hydrogen refuelling stations. We think largely the first big hydrogen refuelling stations are going to be within kind of 50 to 100 kilometers of the industrial clusters where they can access that lower cost hydrogen and then slowly over time as hydrogen gets injected into the grid for heating we can see a number of larger refuelling stations spreading across the country and that is limited by two facts. Firstly we want to access the cheap hydrogen from industrial clusters and the second is that hydrogen refuelling station for trucks are very very large they're probably 10 to 15 times larger than hydrogen refuelling stations in existence today and to make that a feasible option connection to the grid is really the best long-term option and so patients that can build a hydrogen refuelling station of that type are limited in the timeline until they can access the grid. Okay, thanks and then I see that there are questions from James and Ian too but I also caught up with the chat and I see Celine has been answering them so I'm assuming James and Ian that you are fine with these answers. If not let me know in the chat but meanwhile we can go to the questions that we have for the participants because Richard and David also had some questions for you and the first question is introduced by Biomethane offers an immediate solution to start reducing emissions from heavy good vehicles however there are limited supplies of Biomethane and for some applications such as direct use in transport there's no pathway to achieving zero emissions making a long-term role of Biomethane in decarbonisation efforts uncertain which I think we also discussed to some extent what we would like to get your opinion on is which of the following statements which one of the following statement most closely matches your view on the future use of Biomethane in heavy goods vehicles the options being Biomethane will not be used in significant volumes Biomethane will be used extensively in transport, heat and industry in the 2020s and early 2030s but the amount will fall after 2035 reaching very low levels by 2050 Biomethane will be used extensively in transport, heat and industry in the 2020s and early 2030s but from 2035 the amount will fall in these markets but will increase in gas power plants with CCS out to 2050 Biomethane will play a significant role in transport, heat industry and power out to 2050 and I think we have the option ODAR and in that case please put in the chat in Microsoft Teams what you think the appropriate phrasing should have been so please start voting on your one favorite option and if you choose ODAR then please express in the chat what you think the phrasing should be as Dennis has already done continue to vote please on what you think is the best statements Laura has also introduced a new variation for ODAR thank you I think we are almost set and I see there is quite a distribution over the different answers if you put in ODAR then please provide in the chat what you think the order should be the framing correct phrasing should be but options C followed by the seem to be the winners in fuel of time just we move on to the next question and to introduce that the use of biomethane is currently expanding quickly in the truck market however the UK government is targeting a zero tailpipe emission fleet by 2050 so focusing on battery electric and hydrogen the question is which of the one of the following narratives do you think is most likely in the transition from diesel to biomethane to zero emission in the truck market again a couple of options and again the question if you choose ODAR to put it in the chat what you think should have been the correct narrative maybe open this poll again to Lennart the options are biomethane use will expand quickly in the 2020s in multiple truck segments and will remain a minor but significant part of the fuel mix out to 2050 that's A biomethane use will expand quickly in the 2020s only in the long-haul truck segment and will remain a minor but significant part of the fuel mix out to 2050 that's B then C biomethane use will expand quickly in the 2020s only in the long-haul truck segment but will peak by 2035 and will mostly have disappeared by 2050 that's C and D is there's not enough time for biomethane to be rolled out in significant volumes before zero emission trucks must be introduced and E is ODAR and in that case please substantiate in the chat I see some voting has already been going on but I hope that more of you can still add their thinking and thanks Julie for your comment in the chat let's give it a couple of more seconds thank you very much and if you voted ODAR then please substantiate what you think should be different in the chat meanwhile let's move to the next question let's close this one in order to transport to make a use of low cost hydrogen productions at scales greater than the demand from transport is needed this suggests a successful hydrogen strategy needs to achieve large-scale hydrogen use in industry, heating and transport and thus in that light David and Richard ask you which energy demand applications do you foresee as the main consumers of hydrogen in 2050 this is a different tool in Apple everywhere so here you can also add so feel free to add any options and feel free to upvote the options you think are most relevant to get to production at scales greater than the demand for transport only so what do you think are the best options please upvote these open the polling please Lennart so which of these do you think are the most relevant options upvote these and feel free to enter new options as the other participants will be adding options it is important to every now and then make sure that you refresh the options that you are looking at so that you can also vote on new options and you do that by regularly pushing the load new responses button which typically is yellow so please continue to upvote any option that you think will contribute significantly to the scale for hydrogen I see some people found the downvote option too that is also fine if you think an option really is not going to contribute and as said feel free to add some options yourself too and to make sure that you also see the options that the others add regularly push the yellow button to load more responses if you see it okay I see there is a more or less clear top two with fuel for domestic non-domestic hybrid heat pumps to support I can't see it anymore to support heating on the coldest days and feel to provide direct and indirect heating needs an industry but it is more or less gradual ranking as it turns out okay let's do the last question and that last question is maybe you can go to the next so again skill is needed and here the question is what are the key factors in delivering a successful hydrogen rollout so the key factors in delivering a successful hydrogen rollout again same principle upvote downvote if you like add responses if you like and make sure that you load the options that the other participants have added is the voting activated it is I think yeah it is okay let's give it 30 more seconds make sure to refresh the responses that you have so that you can also upvote all the factors that were entered by the other participants and Richard to close this off maybe you can comment in 20 seconds on the top that you see here yes I think it is very telling it shows that that initial cost barrier to get hydrogen going is the main problem but I think people see once you overcome that first cost hump scale really makes hydrogen a viable option okay thanks and with that I realise that there are some further comments in the meeting chat for David and Richard to take into consideration thanks also for providing these thanks also for being so active in the polling and thanks of course to Richard for your presentation with that let's close this subject off and move on to the next one which is part of workstream 4 which is about system enhancement and more specifically 4.2 which is about grid capacity optioneering which is about the points that if you produce biomethane in places at locations with insufficient capacity of the distribution network how to make sure that you can still feed all the biomethane in that network or that you at least can use all the biomethane produced and for that I would like to introduce Lorna Millington from Cadence to talk you through this Lorna please good morning all thank you for taking the time to join us today and I'm going to give you a bit of a background on some work that we've been doing looking at ways that we could use innovation funding to support biomethane that's going to cover our project that we've been doing collaboratively with Wells in the West called Optinet so I'm going to cover this and just project background progress to date because we've learnt quite a bit and how that fits in with the 4.2 action and ask a few questions to get your feedback next slide please so what is the problem well as the Michelle intimated we've been looking at this because the capacity to accept biomethane onto the gas grid has become more and more constrained as we connect to each side and that's leading to a couple of things developers are ending up having to take higher connection costs as they're moving to having to connect to higher pressure tiers within the system or they're actually having to go further away from their site to connect to our network to find where capacity is next slide please so what have we been doing to try and look for alternative options to mitigate those things the project we've been looking at well the west actually began back in 2018 we were looking at smarter pressure control and compression and understanding how we can put those together to optimise the capacity of our network the winner say smarter pressure control that's looking at ways we can look at the pressures on our system and run them as low as practical but still maintain security supply and continue to feed the system successfully a little bit compression well yes compressors have been used on the national transmission system for years moving gas around the system but in this instance we're looking at it from a slightly different perspective looking at how we can create additional demand on networks by moving gas from one pressure tier up to the higher one and giving us the chance to optimise the capacity we have available to connect via methane next slide please I thought I'd wait rather than get carried away and jump in front of these slides then I confused myself completely right are you seeing the slide now I am yeah so why are we doing this as I say we have the innovation funding that's available to us through this price control and some of the places that we've chosen to spend that money is looking at ways that we can use the gas network differently to solve this real problem with being able to connect green gas to our system and we understand as those of you involved in this have seen from the Pathways report that by methane is part and parcel of that 2050 solution for net zero so connecting as much as is possible to the system today to prepare for that 2050 future is an absolute must so finding ways to deal with capacity constraints within the network is not just for Cadenton whilst in the west to come to solution but it's something that's important to the whole of the UK as I said the project is key to unlocking entry capacity and turning improving our networks capability to accept more sustainable source of gas and we aim to achieve this through smart pressure control and the installation of a compressor to move gas into the higher pressure tiers and around the network which is a first for the UK gas distribution to use these systems next slide please just a quick set on who we've got involved in this so at the moment whilst in the west have been the lead network for this and registered this project originally but due to the nature of the by methane market the solution that they were looking to install on the network became unfortunately not viable due to the by methane producer not taking forward that project so they turned to us as the supporting network in this project to see if we had any opportunities to install the compression and get some useful results from the project and actually we were already looking at an opportunity as we had a by methane producer looking to increase their capacity so we've had a network and a producer and a real way to be able to take this project forward so next few months onwards the lead will change between ourselves and whilst in the west but we will still have the support of passive systems who supported whilst in the west with the freedom project as part of the project management and Costain have been doing the compressor design and will actually now install the compressor for us and we have imperial college looking at some of the alternative ways that we potentially may be able to use what we're learning and we're also looking at how storage might be an alternative solution alongside next slide please so just a very quick pre-sale of what we mean and how we expect to utilise the smart fresh control so we're actually going to install this both in whilst in the west network because they'd actually already designed and come up with a solution that will still give them some useful information on their Swindon to Honeiton system and they already have Green Gas connected and they're going to control two of their sites to be able to basically put together what we do today under our profiling on the low pressure but with more logic already put to control that remotely, automatically without the input of the control room but it will be monitored by the control room to ensure that there is nothing untoward occurring but the idea is is that we will, they will run their high pressure to medium pressure input as low as is practical to allow the Green Gas to take up the rest of the gas that that creates within the network allowing more of that Green Gas to be utilised as often as is possible throughout the year because today we generally run our systems relatively flat maybe moving between pressures during the seasons but generally within the day they get fixed and less so this gives us opportunity to create capacity not only throughout the year but within day as well and we will be doing the same within one of the network that we've chosen which is our East Midland system and we're going to use a different control system so we'll learn something different whilst in the West using a new controller that they have found produced by Fiorentini and we're using some of our existing control systems to do exactly the same so we expect to get some learning that we can utilise across all of the UK both for existing control systems and new Next slide please and lastly the compressor itself so that's the diagram you can see is our East Midlands IP and MP system quite integrated working its way across to Grimsby back across to John Caster, Scunthorpe and all its way down into Nottinghamshire we have several biomecane sites on this particular system that we are looking to utilise the smart compressor control and compression to be able to accept more of that gas more often and the interesting piece is that logic that I spoke about the smart control will be extended to include the compressor and it will be that logic that we are looking as being the real benefits out of this particular project and being able to find out whether these two systems the compressor and the smart control work well together whether they actually inhibit each other and we've got to look at these separate ways of being able to address the issue Next slide please so at the moment we have the compressor in order both system both networks are preparing their smart pressure control installations we've already looked at defining the control logic for the smart control and we're now looking at how that will be developed with the compressor as we are now further along with that design Next slide please although that's a quite busy slide I'll just pick out some of the key things that we've learnt a few of those have been about the changing between locations as meant that we've had to take some of the learning wells in the west that we already had and apply that to Cadence so we've already showed how collaborative and how much this learning is transferrable we had to look at the risk of by the compressor we literally would just direct to by the compressor as lockdown began the original supplier that we were looking at was an Italian company and with lockdown we revisited that with obviously the risks that created and chose the second company that was UK based although they still have a lot of their parts from the Europe and the rest of the world but we thought well we certainly through our risk assessment saw that as a lower risk compared to continuing with the Italian supplier that certainly changed our views of how we saw tendering process compared to where we began that scoring matrix has been certainly a way of making sure that we understood those risks and got all of that out on the table very early on and like I said we've placed that order all of that learning is captured now for whatever opportunities or the network to choose to take from this project but COVID has certainly slowed us hasn't stopped us but it slowed us and created a little challenge in moving this forward but the project is hoping to be alive I say that briefly around March next year so that we can start to get that learning but those of you who have been around our price controls now moving between different price controls is certainly going to challenge this project a little bit but we hope that through our discussions with Ofgem and the transition arrangements we can make sure we can get the fullest amount of learning from this investment and project thank you okay and then I think there's one question that you want to ask the participants so maybe you can move to maybe you can move to next slide Leonard and basically the next slide shows an overview of the options that the team has already looked at Lorna is there anything you want to clarify on these options I think you covered many but make sure that everybody knows what is written down here very briefly so this is just a summary of the level of sort of thoughts that the GDNs have considered in terms of how we can make great capacity available capacity maps were a way of being able to give up front information to help developers look at their sites and make good investment choices reinforcement connecting systems together ways of making potentially more demand available to buy methane has been certainly the things that have been looked at and done as the project angry compression we've been looking and utilizing blending to reduce the propane requirements we've used high pressure plastic as part of an innovation project for one of the connections with being cadence multi-pressure control and manual pressure settings have been done and have been investigated and lastly we have looked at network configuration changes potentially changing the way that we operate the network and to be able to make more capacity available thank you Lorna for that explanation let's go to the next slide because the question now is so this is all being considered but there are other options that could be considered too so is there anything else that could be done to increase the bio methane connections that we have not included in the list that you just saw and interestingly the team already thought of three potential options to look at later the question here is to all of you to add to these options and to prioritize and the prioritization question here is one would you choose to focus on first so again you can upvote as many times as you like but please adding to the list that is here and adding to the list that Lorna just presented that has already been explored are there options other options that could be explored so please add them and which one would you focus would you choose to focus on first and obviously as soon as others start to add options make sure that again you push the yellow button to make sure that you load all the options but that hasn't happened yet so feel totally free to add any option to this to this list too please continue to vote I see a new option so please all who are voting also consider that option please and the option is aggravating ad aerobic digestion production at better network injection points and again a new option so make sure to refresh again your your option here the option is focused on all three as symbiotic variables to mirror the real world difficult but more effective so focusing on many options in a combined fashion again make sure to reload all the responses so that you can also prioritize this one if applicable and yet another option thank you for the question I'm going to ask you to react on the result that you got out of this and how you're going to proceed with it okay let's not look yet the voting so please continue to vote if appropriate but Laura maybe I think the winner will not change anymore so maybe you can already review the options and then let's see which option more so maybe you can already reflect on the outcome of this yeah and it it is very interesting because some of the areas we put forward as part of our next price control were actually around the socialization of reinforcement cost which is actually the lowest one from the group which is interesting but we all have already thoughts have some thoughts around market encouragement and obviously the way that the RHI and the consultation around that sort of suggested that there's more to be done around helping the market to respond accordingly so we certainly will continue to look at what works in this area we have had limited success around demand response previously but we will obviously look for opportunities to see what we can do to encourage and the second one around the aggregating I did forget to mention puts downhill which was done by SGN which was bringing together a number of sites and injecting at one point in their network which appears to have only been sort of a one off at the moment but yes it's certainly something we wouldn't discourage and have had some opportunities to investigate that over the last few years but will continue to keep that in mind and we actually put forward on gas as part of some of our thoughts to the regulator so again that's quite an interesting one to see that appear okay I think you expressed some surprise that the socialization of the reinforcement cost was prioritized so low and Jonathan Scurlock shares that feel no pressure please to respond but for those of you who down voted this option are there one or two who would like to elaborate on why you down voted the socialization of reinforcement cost option so that we understand why this option is so unpopular so for those who down voted the option would you be okay sharing why you think this option is not an option that needs immediate attention no okay I can imagine that in in a workshop that is being recorded if you would have the opportunity and would be okay with that please feel also free to send a brief bullet why you think this option should not be prioritized to the Gasco's green email address so that the team also learns about this option and I see a couple of comments getting in socialization is often implemented in a regressive fashion from Scott and Laura maybe it's that the generator of electricity has to pay for the grid connection gas connectors should be no difference does that already help Laura yeah it's interesting to get people's views of why they've chosen the way they have okay so once again if you can share a bit more about that through email obviously then no names will be attached to it then please do with that thank you very much Laura for this presentation that helps us to understand what you're focusing on and thanks to all participants to provide further steer on other options that the team could focus on with that let's move to the last presentation which is a presentation from Randolph Brasier, ENA's Head of Innovation which is about the open networks project and as you all know the transition of gas and the transition of electricity are very interdependent so if there's a gas-goes-green initiative and there's a similar initiative on the electricity side from a whole system approach amongst others it is very interesting to understand what the other side in this case the electricity side is doing so Randolph will talk us through that and also make the connection with gas-goes-green thanks Michiel can you hear me? yes brilliant okay good morning everyone my name is Randolph Brasier as Michiel said I'm Head of Innovation at ENA and we on our side of business on the electricity side have set up a project called the open networks project I wouldn't say where the dark or the light side of the business I would say we very much work collaboratively with our gas colleagues and we try and take a whole systems approach to the work that we're doing and I'll try and explain how we're doing that across the two projects so this slide here really just reminds you who our members are and for the open networks project it's sponsored by all of the networks in the top right in red so you've got the electricity distribution and electricity transmission companies there so if we quickly move on can we go to the next slide? yeah please be patient there is a delay between me actually going to the next slide when you're seeing the next slide alright no problem I hope it's coming up soon yeah it's come up so just a reminder of what we're facing on the electricity side we're moving from a one-way power flow system to one where power is flowing in all directions and we have a range of decentralized and decarbonized technologies connecting to the grid so we've got well over 30 gigawatts now of distributed energy resources connected to the grids we've got over a quarter of a million electric vehicles now on the roads and potentially significant amount of heat pumps connecting in the future as well so this is putting quite a great amount of strain on the electricity grid wasn't designed for this sort of operation and these sorts of technologies given the example of some of the challenges we're facing in terms of power an EV will roughly double the power usage of the average house across the year so that can put a great strain on the electricity grid so if we move on to the next slide we set up the open networks project and basically we set up the project to help deliver the smart grid in the UK and Ireland and the reason why we want a smart grid is to help facilitate all of these new technologies that I mentioned but facilitate it in a way such that we optimize costs for customers and we actually enable them to have more of a participative role in the energy networks so one of the key challenges of the project that you may have heard in the industry is we're trying to transition particularly the distribution networks from passive asset owners to more system operators so more active operators of their local networks similar to what happens at a national level with the electricity system operator not only does that reduce the cost of networks but it actually means potentially new revenue streams for customers because they are actually able to sell services back to the networks to help support the network and help provide additional capacity to the network so this project has been identified by Bayes and Ofgem as a key part of their smart systems and flexibility plan it's a perfectly smart grid plan and similar to Gasco's Green taking a learn by doing approach so it's not a theoretical project we've got a range of different trials that support the project we don't have time to show the animation but you can check it out on YouTube if you just YouTube ENA open networks there's a few videos explaining the project as well if we move on to the next slide please so we've had a bit of a journey with this project it's a couple of years older than Gasco's Green we started in 2017 and that was very much defining principles and definitions then in 2018 we undertook a bit more of an analysis of where we were now and what we needed to do going forward then last year we focused on what policy and regulatory levers we needed to pull and actually started defining some standards that we could start implementing this year which is highlighted there is very much about actually rolling out what we're doing so implementing some of the standards that we've produced and also coming up with a robust plan of what steps we need to take going forward in the short, medium and long term and we very much see this as an ongoing project so there's going to be a lot of continuous development is quite nascent some of the local flexibility markets that we're running are really new and no one else is really doing them globally at all so there is a lot of continuous learning and learn by doing to happen which means that we're going to have to continuously evolve the project going forward next slide please I won't dwell on this one for too long but we have six work streams focusing on various aspects from what the future looks like to what markets look like now, how we better plan electricity networks, how we better share data particularly across transmission and distribution what service the customer gets and how we can improve the service that customers get particularly with respect to data and connections we have a communications and stakeholder engagement work stream and finally we have work stream 4 which is in orange there that's our whole energy systems work stream so if we move on to the next slide this work stream is actually a cross-vector work stream so it doesn't just have electricity members in it we've got our gas members in it Matt and Tom sit in there from an industry and we have a range of other industry stakeholders from across the energy industry that actually sit in that work stream I don't know if the next slide is still coming up but yeah sorry the next one with the timeline so we've got a handful of products that we're looking at in this work stream looking at things like how do we undertake a whole systems cost benefit analysis so how can you choose a solution between gas and electricity that's actually best for everyone so how do you take that whole systems approach which hasn't really been done before most parts of the energy industry still work in silos and shifting investment between different sectors and different vectors is actually quite difficult we're also looking about how gas can input into our future energy scenarios that we come up with how we better undertake investment planning across gas and electricity how we improve data and how we can look at better operation of the networks because operation of the gas and electricity networks they're quite heavily interlinked a lot of people think they operate independently or separately but it's not actually true so how can we better improve those sort of operational time scales as well so there's a lot happening within these products all of the information is available on the website and I'll be happy to go through some of these in detail with people if they are interested going forward but if we move on to the next slide this slide attempts to show how the two projects are aligning so effectively at ENA open networks of gas flows green they're our future networks projects so they are looking at what the future of both the gas and the electricity networks and transmission and distribution looks like we have a number of ways in which they interact so at the sort of more rudimental level the advisory group we have a lot of crossover between the people on this call and the people on our advisory group on the open network side we've also set up a data working group across gas and electricity because we realise that a lot of the interactions actually the challenges come down to data and how data is shared across the two so we've set up a new working group at ENA looking at how we can better facilitate sharing of data not just between networks but also to stakeholders like yourselves and make that publicly available and we're using the outreach arms so the stakeholder engagement arms of open networks and gas goes green for that work so you don't need to join a separate mailing list or anything like that and then we obviously have the work stream that I just discussed on open networks and also the two work streams one and five on gas goes green that have direct involvement between our members so it's very much my role and Matt Hindle's role to try and align these projects and to give you a bit of an example of what this actually means like in the real world probably when we started this project three years ago and around about the time that Matt and I joined ENA we were pretty much working 100% on gas and 100% on electricity respectively whereas now I probably spending at least 30% of my time on gas related work or with our gas members and vice versa for Matt not just within the our future networks projects but also in other areas such as innovation our innovation working groups as well so we're very much taking a whole systems approach at ENA and better aligning our work across a range of different areas so I realise we're short on time so just the last slide is really just showing how you can get involved from an open network perspective it's quite similar from the perspective of you guys in that we have an advisory group, we have consultations, events and an open networks mailing list so if you're not already involved do check out our page there and sign up to our mailing list and get involved in the work on the electricity side as well I'll also be giving semi-regular updates to this advisory group on key pieces of work that we're undertaking particularly on that work stream 4 area and vice versa with Matt and Tom on the electricity side as well so thanks very much for your time I don't know if we have any time to take questions if there are any but let's do that now in a few of the time thank you Randolph for your presentation I think it's very helpful to see how the electricity side connects I'm soon going to pass the floor to Tom to wrap up and he will come with a pathway to provide feedback and ask questions on Randolph's presentation Tom, I promise you somewhere in between 2 and 10 minutes to wrap it up I think it's one, so you will need to do it quick from my side, thanks to everybody for their very active participation Tom Yes, just a very short wrap up to me to let you know that we will be sharing the slides presented today and the results from the polling and to apologize to those on the line who I didn't introduce earlier I'd like to thank all of you for your comments and questions and a special thanks to those presenting today and to Michiel, Leonard and Katie for organizing and facilitating do again in touch with us via gasgoesgreen at ngnetworks.org if you have any questions for open networks as well we'll refer them to their team and finally just wish you all a good rest of the week and look forward to seeing you at the next advisory group on 4th of November, thanks and goodbye Thank you very much