 Welcome to Kondo Insider, Hawaii's show about association living for both directors and owners alike. We hope you find our show informative and interesting. You're always welcome to dial into the show at our hotline 415-871-2474. Today we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, emotional support chickens. Cluck, cluck, cluck. Now I got to say at the beginning of the show, we respect the rights of all disabled persons to have the support they need in all types and forms. But there's been questions about whether the system itself allows for the misuse of emotional support chickens. Anyway, we have blessed in Hawaii to have a leading national expert on service animals and emotional support chickens who's been on our show before sitting next to me. He said he'd never come back again, Scott Shirley, and how are you and your emotional support wife? Well, we're doing well and of course I'm back here again because I happen to answer the phone when you called. You don't have to call our idea, yes. No, I guess I'm going to have to get it, but just briefly, what's your background on the issues of assistance animals and emotional support animals? Well, I've been studying and teaching the Americans with Disabilities Act for over 20 years and my wife has a service dog, a real service dog. He's a medical alert dog for her diabetes. And so we see all the different levels of emotional support and people with service animals. And unfortunately, this has become year after year a very hot topic, especially with long-term property managers and condo associations. Well, I can tell you from experience we're seeing more and more of it. But to kind of get the conversation rocking and rolling here, let's do this short news report that recently appeared on KITV to kind of set the stage for our conversation. Let's do that. I think our producer is ready to rock and roll and show it to us. Case of two chickens show you and must be their comfort chickens. It really is a thing and the notion of comfort chickens is making things a little uncomfortable at a certain townhouse complex. As KITV's Katherine Cruz tells us, some are crying foul. You'd expect to see egg laying chickens like these on a farm, but maybe not in tighter quarters in an East Honolulu townhouse. The owner, Sabrina Crooks, moved two chickens into the unit her family bought last year. Residents say initially when neighbors complained the chickens disappeared for a few months, but then they reappeared and one man said he actually saw them walking freely on the grounds. The complaints came before the Villa Marina Association. It asks for help from experts to navigate this issue. But comfort chickens were a first for the experts too. That's the first time I've ever seen somebody claiming a chicken as an emotional support animal, not just one, but two. The owner submitted a doctor's note. That has some weight, but it was the certificate claiming to have the chickens registered as therapy animals that made some eyes roll. You can find Musubi and show you if you check the online registry, but it doesn't take much to qualify. Richard Emery knows he took it to the extreme to register a fictitious miniature elephant. I applied online for my fake pygmy elephant named Donut. And over a few minutes, I was able to take a psychological questionnaire and become qualified for $69.95 to get a certificate to allow me to keep my pygmy elephant in my condo. Companion chickens are new to the Civil Rights Commission too. It boils down to what is reasonable. Years ago, it had an experience with someone who claimed they needed two therapy rabbits. The problem is bunnies multiply quickly. One or two rabbits might be a reasonable accommodation that 12 or 14 or 16 rabbits would not be a reasonable accommodation. Whether it's bunnies or chickens, Hoshijo makes it clear. There really is no legal entity that certifies or registers assistance animals or even service animals. So if somebody waves a certificate in your face or includes it as part of the documentation meaningless? There's no such thing. That goes for the vests and clothing you can buy online. Advocates for those with disabilities are all behind those who truly need assistance animals. Dogs or miniature horses are the only two allowed by federal law. Comfort creatures or therapeutic pets are a bit more nebulous under the Fair Housing Law and more difficult for condo associations to regulate. When that teddy bear or security blanket is a live animal, then we get into regulations that impact not only the person but their neighbors, noise, sanitation and just general upkeep of a building. Why says the Villa Marina is right to be skeptical. It's been in the headlines before. Just 15 years ago, a resident was investigated for animal cruelty charges for operating a puppy mill. Authority sees close to 30 dogs and cats that were found to be in poor condition. After that experience, the association adopted new rules. Their bylaws do state no farm animals, no breeding and things like that, but when it comes to an emotional support animal, that sometimes has to be looked at closely as well. It's all about double checking the chickens and trying to strike the balance with show you in Musubi of what's reasonable and what's not. Catherine Cruz, KITV Island News. Comfort chickens. Who knew? That's Sabrina Crook still at KITV. She's allergic to dogs and cats. That's why she has chickens. And she says she may share some more stories a little later after she talks with the board of her association. Well, I reluctantly say that I hope this show doesn't land egg, but the question I have of you Scott, you know, before we started the TV report, you mentioned the ADA. Are condos subject to the ADA or what's the law applies to that? Actually, generally speaking, the Americans with Disabilities Act, I like to say, applies to commercial properties such as going into the bank, the grocery store, things like that. Anywhere where the public is allowed to come in and conduct business. Where we run into difference is with the emotional support animal, that actually falls under the federal fair housing laws, persons with a disability. So they're two separate laws. The emotional support animal isn't allowed to go into banks, grocery stores, restaurants, but the service animal is allowed to go in. So we talked about service animals and emotional support animals. What kind of animals are they for the disabled? What qualifications are they and what are the differences in training and skills, that are? Well, the service animal under the Americans with Disabilities Act, they only recognize two animals that have been specifically trained for whatever your disability is. Let's just take, for example, a seen eye dog, trained for somebody who is blind. They only accept properly trained service dogs and properly trained service miniature horses, which are about the size of a large dog. And they clarified that rule back in 2011 to clarify that these are the only two recognized service animals. But they also said in that Department of Justice memo that it doesn't change any of the rules under federal fair housing person with disabilities, where the emotional service animal comes in, or emotional support animal comes into play. Well, in your conversation, I was going to talk about your wife who has a medical alert dog from her correctly. So there's not all dogs are trained. Some of them have, or some animals have, like a natural ability to assist where, you know, I doubt that the dog that handles your wife was trained for that. They just have that ability? Well, some do. Let's take somebody who's epileptic, for example. They have service dogs that are seizure alert dogs. They pretty much are not entirely sure how the animal knows that a seizure is coming 20 or 30 minutes. In the last several years, they've learned that, like my wife's instance, the diabetic dog, they can actually train because they see the sense of smell. When your blood sugar drops too low, and that's what he's watching out for on my wife, you give off a scent that's similar to acetone that you and I can't smell, but the dog can. And then if your blood sugar is going up too high, it's sort of like bubblegum or cotton candy. And again, the dog smells it, but we don't. So they can train on that. It was actually within the last couple of days on one of the news channels, a very interesting report about a high school student, I believe, who has a diabetes alert dog and takes it to class. And the education they did with the other students in the class to help them understand its purpose. And it was very valuable to help that nice young child to, from having a diabetes event that would require him to go to the hospital. Well, in our situation, we can take her dog, which is actually a large chihuahua, we can take him anywhere we want to. We normally don't, because generally speaking, his service has really come into play while my wife's asleep. He'll wake her up if her blood sugar drops too low, so she doesn't slip into a diabetic coma. So you very rarely would ever see us taking him to the restaurant, grocery store. We don't try to take advantage of the situation. We'll take him out from time to time to keep him, people socialize, but other than Natty's, generally it's when she's sleeping that he does his services. But the one thing, we call it an emotional support animal. Yes. And people think, oh, they're grieving, or they just want the comfort of a pet. You know, can they just have that, or do they have to have a disability? Well, according to the federal fair housing laws, it has to deal with a disability just because, let's say, you don't like going outside and being with people would not necessarily mean you're entitled to an emotional support animal. It is proven that having an animal that you can take care of and sit and pet and talk to helps with blood pressure, depression, and things like that. The sad thing is, is it's, you and I have talked about this many times, and even legislatively, is people are taking advantage of the gray areas that are in the rules in regards to these animals. So they're trying, and some people, again, recognizing we all have admitted we want the disabled to have everything to make your life better. There may be people taking advantage of it because the questions you can ask, the things you can do are very narrow with respect to what that's all about. And even under Hawaii statute, you need to provide, let's say, to a landlord or a condo association that doesn't allow pets, a letter from a medical professional. And you and I have seen some of those letters from the medical professional, basically said this person's disabled and needs this animal. Now, does that medical professional have to be a doctor? Yeah, it'd be a doctor, a psychiatrist, a psychologist. It could be a VA nurse. And even a social worker has the ability to generate that letter. So it's not just a doctor. Do they have to be in Hawaii or can it be a Colorado doctor? Well, you and I have seen a number from Colorado, but it could be from any state. And one of the important things is, especially for boards and property managers, is you do have the right to call the doctor. Not to find out what the disability is, which you're not allowed to ask, but you can verify that the doctor actually wrote that letter. Because forgeries do make their way around. So for an owner who had a disability, who had an emotional support animal, they basically need to have a doctor's or social workers or the appropriate person's written note saying that this person qualifies that in my opinion, it qualifies to have an emotional support animal. Yes. And what can the board ask? What questions can they ask? Well, they can't ask very much because of the disability rights. And in actuality, the way the law is written, you say you have the animal, don't even have to put your request in writing. You can just ask. And however, though, if you ask, the board can hand you a document or a form that says, please have your medical professional fill this out. And so that they have proper verification. Well, I have a lot more questions with regard to questions they can ask and more about this program. But at this moment, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Kondo Insider in a moment. And welcome back to Kondo Insider. We're sitting here talking about specifically emotional support chickens. But in general, the issues on serviced animals and emotional support animals. And we were talking about the kind of questions boards can ask. And Scott Shirley, my guest, was explaining, there's very little can they do. But let me just ask this question. There's an awful lot of people going online. And I gave the story of my pygmy elephant on the news report. Just applying and it's rather simple to get an online certificate and be declared to have a disability without even ever seeing a doctor or a provider, is this right? This is something that's gotten, I think, worse over the last couple of years. Just in our company alone, we've seen four different Kondo associations having to deal with this. And all four of the instances, the letter and certificate came from the same provider out of Colorado, where they just went online, answered a few questions and got a certificate in the mail or emailed to them. And in some cases, they actually, like the example of the two chickens there, it actually said on their certificate that they were service animals. When, in fact, they are not service animals. No, they can't because they don't train for a specific death. How about the fact, in theory, I guess, I don't know much about this. But in theory, you have chickens. They're kind of like barnyard animals to me. I mean, I'm sure there's like, in every other thing, there's like special chickens, but you know, I particularly like the chickens that pop by or KFC, but that don't mean they attack the emotional support chickens. But the reality of it is they must make noise and cluck here or there. How about the noise these things may make affecting other people? How does that play into this? The noise issue, and this even applies to service animals. Let's give an example that say you have somebody move his in. They have a seeing eye dog. And every night from midnight to 5 a.m., that seeing eye dog barks. Well, normally it shouldn't because they're trained not to do that kind of stuff, but if it barked every night for five hours, every night, that is actually grounds for removal of the animal from the property. So even if it's an emotional support animal or a service animal, you are still entitled to quiet enjoyment of your property. So if they're causing noise or other hazards, that is grounds for removal. Let's say they have a, we've seen many lately of a pit bull being a emotional support animal or a service animal. And then if it attacks somebody at the property or attacks somebody else's animal, you have grounds to have that animal removed from the property immediately. How about the fact, again, picking on the chickens? The owner takes them out and lets them run around in the yard. Just lets them run around. They may be supervising them, but they're not on a leash or tethered in any way. Do they have that right? Because that somewhat interferes with the rights of people to live there. You are absolutely correct. That is not right actually. The animal, the way the laws are set up is the animal, both service and emotional support must be in control of the handler at all times. We also have leash laws in Hawaii, licensing laws in Hawaii, and those still have to be abided by. No matter what the animal, whether it's service, emotional support, still has to abide by other what they call reasonable rules. So having the chickens running loose also puts in jeopardy that they might end up at KFC, you know, not just. I guess, you know, the issue to me is that, you know, people have a right to quiet and enjoy their homes. And certainly, as I said many times earlier, we may tease about this a little bit because it's kind of funny that we want the disabled to have everything they're entitled to. But there has been some abuse with regard to this, not only in our community, but throughout the United States. So I guess my next question to you is, if a board had that problem, then they're probably best approaching it by the noise issue or the, or the running around tether issue versus challenging it as a emotional support animal. That is to be the best way to handle it. Plus, in those type of scenarios, of course, first time is a warning. You don't just immediately say, you got to get the animal off the unless they are a danger to health and safety and give the opportunity to control the animal and so forth. But if you start attacking because it's an emotional support animal, then you're going to have issues. May of last year, there was a federal case where they kept denying the person to have their emotional support animal at a condo. He ended up selling his unit and moving to another condo that was willing to let him have his emotional support animal. Then he turned around the federal fair housing suit against his former association. In the end, the association in federal court was fined $16,000 for violating federal fair housing and owed him $20,000 in damages. The big problem with that particular case, however, is the association decided to appeal it. And spent two years appealing this case only to end up owing $16,000 fine and $20,000 in damages. My issue with that one is they spent two years fighting this in court. So the association probably spent well over $100,000 in legal fees battling this over $16,000 and $20,000. Well, if they just allowed him to have it in the first place, it would have been an issue. But the problem is, again, because the boards have limited rights, they ask questions that probably the best advice is when they have the issues, consult with their attorney and they may not get the perfect result they want. But the attitude is that penny wise, pound foolish, right? But how you deal with these kind of issues. Can a person have more than one emotional support animal? This, I think, has become probably the biggest issue in the last one or two years. In my research and study of federal fair housing laws, it was a common expression amongst even HUD memos that they don't see issues of more than one animal. But now recently, it's it's increased. We've had issues just in the last several months of three emotional support dogs, five emotional support animals. And what the boards and the property managers need to remember, however, is they can't just come along with a letter and say, this person needs five animals. It actually, HUD's take on that one is the medical provider must establish that each one of these animals deals with a specific cause of their disability. So in theory, if I was blind, I could have a service dog, seeing eye dog. But then at the same time that I had diabetes, I could have a diabetes alert at dog. And then because I have some, you know, I have lots of mental issues that I need for the psychological readings and emotional support dog. I could end up having three dogs, cats or chickens. Yeah, that's actually the way it would work out. However, the other thing to consider is to say you're going to move into a studio and you want to have 10 emotional support cats. That is probably not a reasonable accommodation for not only you or the animals. So we've recently seen there was one person who was claiming that they had three emotional support dogs. The doctor letter that they provided was from the mainland and they had whited out one animal and wrote in three. They modified the doctor's letter when they board called the doctor. He said, no, I only authorized one animal, never authorized three. He disavowed his letter. So they went to another medical practitioner who wrote a letter that says the family needs three animals. Well, that doesn't cut it either because it's for the person when he was contacted and said, what do you mean the family needs three animals? He says it was up to the family to determine who got what. That's not kosher either. What do other states do about this? Well, some states like California, they require you to license them with the local humane society and you must give them a copy of the medical practitioner's letter, which goes on file not only with the humane society, but also the State Department of Health for later audit. And what they saw in California was a tremendous drop in people claiming they had these animals because the medical profession realized that these letters are going to go on file at the Department of Health. They can call me up at any time to verify. And so the doctor stopped writing those letters. Has there ever been any efforts in Hawaii to do something similar? I think our efforts in Hawaii have always been dealing with how do we approach the person who's faking the disability. That would be like this issue with faking an emotional support animal or service animal would be like you or I faking being disabled and rolling around town in a wheelchair. It's the same thing, but it's hard to deal with how are they faking it? How do you find out that they're faking it? So I think you and I have actually talked about this before that we think the right direction to go in is like California and put the burden on the people who are providing the letters. Well, the last two sessions have been several efforts to require that it be a misdemeanor for a medical professional to falsely determine someone has the need for a service animal or emotional support animal, but that's gone nowhere. Because I know we're certainly running out of time here in the next couple of minutes. We still have about three minutes left, but so what's the status of the emotional support check? Where is it going? What's happened? Any new? Well, we are still waiting for a decision from the Hawaii civil rights commission. I was working very closely with who you saw on the news segment with Francine Y of the Disability Communications Board at the Department of Health, and she contacted the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission because she's never dealt with a chicken issue, let alone two. And the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission has never dealt with this either, at least in the state of Hawaii. So we're still waiting for word on that. But, you know, I continue to research and look at what happens at other states. And of course, chickens are used as therapy animals, especially for autistic children. So there could be the argument that, yes, they could be an emotional support animal, even though they're deemed a farm animal. But if you wanted to bring your cow, your horse, or something to that as an emotional support animal, that would not be a reasonable accommodation. What if the bylaws, for example, say you can't have farm-mared animals in your unit? Is a chicken a farm-mared animal or not? In this case, we're still waiting to hear. But if they determine that it's okay to have them as an emotional support animal, that would override the farm animal scenario. Just like some bylaws may indicate, we do allow dogs, but not these particular breeds. But if their service or emotional support, that overrides the breed restriction and the bylaws. So does that mean my emotional support, Pygmy Elephant, safe? He is. I don't know if you're safe with your emotional support wife, if you bring it home. Well, there's a lot of truth to that aspect of it. But the White Civil Rights Commission is the local Hawaii agency that enforces. Yes. So if the association did give it notice and said, we don't believe this qualifies, the owner would then file a complaint with the Civil Rights Commission who adjudicated. That's exactly right. Also, the other thing that boards need to realize too, is you can't purposely delay your answer. Because federal fair housing has looked at that as you're effectively denying it by delaying having an answer. I've seen where they said, okay, we'll give you an answer in six months. That would not work. And that would be a violation of the Fair Housing Act. Well, thank you for being on the show today. Thank you again. We've been talking about the complex issues around emotional support animals. And today emotional support chickens. I do want to end this show saying all of us in the industry support the disabled from having everything I need to make their life better. Unfortunately, in this process, some people have tried to take advantage to get around a condominium associations, no pet rules. Think of the effects on your neighbors if you happen to be one of those persons because everybody's entitled to quiet enjoyment in their home. So anyway, next week, we're going to be talking about hospital 832 and board meetings and talk about meeting rules and some of the new implications of the new law about open board meetings for homeowners. Again, thank you for viewing condo insider