 convening select board meeting which started at Dolan Road. We have with us the select board, we have Shane, we have Victor, we have Dorinda, and we have all Seminera. Did I miss anybody? I don't think so. I'm sorry. Our town clerk. Of course the town clerk. And select board system. So the report from the four o'clock inspection at Dolan Road was that Gary Lamelle and Phyllis Tillingest came. The select board was there with the exception of Liz Sharpe and Shane was there. And basically the concern of both Gary and Phyllis was only that the part we were throwing up was above the two driveways at the bottom. They were both concerned about that large covert and I explained to them that that section of the road would still be a class four road and therefore the town would be responsible for that covert and they seemed fine with that. I invited them to participate in the Zoom but they had other things in mind. So that's basically the report. Everybody was, everybody was pretty happy and understanding. I mean the question, the only question that came up which was from Phyllis was, so if the reason that road is going is getting thrown up is that it is would be majorly expensive to maintain that as a class four road, don't we have other roads in town that are now class four who are in similar shape? And she referred to Bulldoch Road and I said, probably we do. And she said, do you think that will get downgraded to a trail? And I said, it possibly could happen but it isn't happening right now. So I think that, is there anything I missed, Steve? I think that's pretty much what the... No, that was it. Hey, Peter? Yes, I might help if what you would just put a quick description of what you guys saw. For example, what you said, you know, what you case signed into the meeting, like the condition of that... So the road is in substantially the same condition that it's been in for a long time, which it is a fairly deep gully, at least three feet deep, Steve, right? Wouldn't you say? That's correct. It's about three feet, probably deeper than what it was originally when people were using the road. Right. And there's a stream that runs right down it into a culvert under the driveway down at the bottom and it is definitely impassable. I mean, you could probably ride a mountain bike down there if you were very brave when it was dry, but I believe you told me, Liz, that you walked down there. When you have your bicep. Well, I mean, I can bike down it. It's not pleasant. You have to have a mountain bike and I can bike up it and it's really hard and I have to get off, but my husband can bike all the way up it. But it's like a trail you saw. It's like a mountain. It's been so worn out. I don't even think you could fit a piece of equipment in there. No, well, that's, we actually discussed that also. If the idea was to run the greater down there to try and improve it, how would you ever do it? We'd probably leave the greater in there. I don't know. Very narrow trees. The trees hang over. It is truly a trail at this point, not a road. Yeah, a lot. The trees that are in the right of way are quite tall and grown in and there was one that was on the ground that was had fallen over, which made the road go to pass it. You'd have to go, well, you'd have to go around it. It was in the road way. So, Sarah, do you want to read that letter from Forrest Parks just so it's a record? Yeah. Dear board members, and this letter is dated October 25th from Rebecca Washburn, who is the director of Land's Administration and Recreation. Sarah, can I just stop you for a minute? I don't think you started the recording. Oh, shoot. I always have that problem. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Recording in progress. Thank you. Okay. I'm not going to make a start over, are you? No, you've got... I've got it in the minutes. And I mean, if this... Work is here. Work is here. Thank you. Okay. October 25th, 2021 is the date of the letter. This is a letter from Rebecca Washburn, director of Land's Administration and Recreation, who I had to notify that about this downgrading potentially of the Class 4 road, which you must do whenever you downgrade a Class 4 road to or any road into a trail. Dear board members, on September 27th, 2021, the Department of Forest Parks and Recreation received the petition to reclassify portions of Dolan Road in the town of Middlesex, Vermont. Per 19 VSA section 775, municipalities must notify the commissioner of Forest Parks and Recreation when a petition to discontinue a highway is filed. It is the policy of Forest Parks and Recreation to encourage municipalities to keep highways as public rights of way for emergency, recreational, forestry, agricultural, and other purposes. These roads provide numerous benefits, including access to your round and part-time residents and camps, access to agricultural fields, forests, and sugaring operations, access to state-owned parcels for recreational opportunities for hunting and fishing, forest management, and other forest products, recreational access for activities like hiking, mountain biking, cross-country skiing, horseback riding, and ATV and four-wheel use. FPR's lands, administrations, staff, and district staff in our Bury office have reviewed the petition and offer no comments concerning the proposed reclassification. FPR staff will not be participating in the public hearing and site visit occurring on November 2nd, 2021. We respectfully ask that this letter be recorded as part of the official proceedings on this matter. Thank you for the opportunity to comment. Nice letter. So at this point in time, we take no action. This is just a step in the process and remind us what the next step is. The next step is that we have to draft a resolution that you guys sign that will run past our town attorney that you guys will sign saying that you are going to downgrade this road into a legal trail and you'll vote on that resolution and that will be your vote, whether or not to pass that. And if you pass that resolution, then I think there's a whole process of notification and potential appeal period and then it's recorded into our land records and that's it. Yeah, okay. So there's nothing for us to do now. The only other thing that I think would be a really good idea is, I believe it was Phyllis mentioned that the GPS's send the UPS trucks to that road. So probably it would be a good idea. I would think it would be a good idea for us to put a sign at both ends and said this is a trail and not suitable for whatever. I mean, I remember when we were having that problem on Bulldoch Road, we had tractor trailers, not Bulldoch Road, McCullough Road. We had tractor trailers trying to go through McCullough Road when it hadn't even been plowed. So anyway. It would be really good during this public hearing process to just have Shane state, just for the couple of sentences, how this process started and why the town is seeking to downgrade this particular road or why he wants this particular road downgraded, which we'll, you know, talking about whatever fines or penalties for not maintaining it to class for standard Shane. If you could do that, we could get that in to the public hearing portion and then it's all nicely together. That is a connected segment and connected segments are part of the Lake Champlain basin, the whole water runoff. That road has to be upgraded to state standards as part of the connected segment. To upgrade that road is going to cost an astronomical amount of money. It'd be easier to downgrade. There's no houses or anything on. It's only used as a trail. So downgrade to a trail and we don't have to upgrade it. It will no longer be a connected segment. If you don't upgrade, and that's all the, is that the municipal waste water? Yeah. That's what started the discussion. And guess what, by the way, I would say Bulldoch Road is a connected segment also. Yeah, we'll have to look into that too because that not as in bad. I mean, I made it through there with a pickup. There's a couple holes. It definitely needs some material if you're going to upgrade it and need some brush trimming, but that's nowhere near as bad as Dolan. Right, right. Shane, what was the length of that road? The trail portion? 850. 832 feet. 832? Okay. Anything else on Dolan Road? Was there any? So I know they, Phyllis had mentioned the culvert. Is there any concerns about what's happened over the years is that it used to be drivable when I first lived here. And now it's like a trail because of the water runoff that's made it sort of look like a mountain trail and gets deeper and deeper. If it's a trail, there's still an opportunity for us to do any kind of mitigation if we needed to. Is that or not? Like if we chose to because it somehow affected? I believe the way it works is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Steve or Shane, we can voluntarily do maintenance work on trails, whether it's removing fallen trees or whatever the issue is, but it's not mandated. I'm just picturing there could be some possibility of wash because of the way that there's no real direction that the water goes. It just kind of goes down that it could damage the place that isn't a class that's a regular road. The way it goes is, and we looked at that, is the water runs down, runs down the bad part that's going to be a trail and then it goes into a culvert, which goes under, not the tilling has driveway, but the house on the other side. But that culvert is there. I don't know if it's their driveway culvert or the town culvert. Tell you the truth. It goes under their driveway, but anyway. Okay. So that water is diverted, so I don't think it would come down and I mean, could the culvert get plugged up? Could water come down there? Sure, it couldn't, and we have to do a little repair on that class four section. Okay. But isn't there another culvert in there now, right now? Is there another culvert a little farther down between that and the road? Well, then it goes, then I believe it goes down into the ditch, which is on the side of Bulldoch road, and there's a culvert that goes under the class four portion, which is a good size culvert, because it carries all the water that comes down Tangletown, and a good share of the water, I suspect it comes down the hill from Bulldoch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything else on, anything else on Dolan? Then with time to spare, we are moving on to our budget workshop. The highway department presents the budget. Wait, we don't have to vote on anything? Hey, Peter, we don't have to vote. No, because we have to gather up. No, we have to, we have to, as Sarah just outlined, she creates a resolution, then we vote on the resolution. Okay. Okay. Sorry. So that's the process. We don't vote now. Okay. Sarah, do you have something? Yeah. Well, since it's a little early, it's 5.18. I wonder if maybe we could address the other business stuff. So give the budget committee a chance to show. Excuse me. Yes, that's a good idea. So let's go down to approval of the minutes of October 19th, 2021. Is there a motion? I'll make that motion. Steve, is there a second? Bill? Thank you. All in favor of approving the minutes of the October 19th, 2021, select board meeting please say aye. I'm very sure. Aye. Any opposed? This is a typo. I'm sorry. I meant to have 26, not 16. 26, yes. Okay. I wasn't at that one. Wasn't that the one that was just... Yeah, you weren't at that one, Mary. Yeah, I know. Oh, is there a motion on those? I'll move approval. All second. Moved by Phil, seconded by Steve. All in favor of approving the minutes of the October 26th special meeting please say aye. Aye. Oh, I don't think I was there. I'm staying at 10. I don't think I was there. You can abstain. Okay. Okay. Moving right along. Accepting Sarah Briget's resignation from the ZBA action likely. Could she send us a letter or just... She did. She sent us a letter, just an email saying to whom it may concern, I resigned from the ZBA. So, I didn't figure it was worth sending to you guys, but she did send an email. Didn't we just put her on that? Yeah. What happened? No, you just made her the assistant zoning administrator. Oh, okay. Sorry. That's why she had to step off the ZBA. Yeah, move that we accept your resignation. We're a second. Second. Mary. Okay. Give Mary credit. All in favor of accepting Sarah's resignation from the ZBA, say aye. Aye. All right. Any opposed? Considering Adrian Megida's nomination to the Conservation Commission. Move approval. Second. Did we get a letter from her? No. The Conservation Commission is recommending her. That's the process. That's a letter. Sarah sent it to us. It was an email. I can dig it out. I forward it to all of you. But the process is the Conservation Commission recommends her to us. Right. And the Conservation, they have the cons, I was notified by Matt Schley on Monday night that the Conservation Commission did recommend a 100% endorsement of Adrian Megida to join the Conservation Commission. They have a meeting coming up on Thursday. So, I think they'd like her to be able to attend and put that in the email. Okay. Perfect. So, all in favor of appointing Adrian Megida to the... Wait, Mary moved. Who seconded? All second. He's got it. Okay. All those in favor of appointing Adrian Megida to the Conservation Commission, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. We've appointed her. Correspondent, Sarah. No. Just some back and forth with FEMA, but other than that, nothing you need to concern yourselves with. Okay. And we've talked about the orders. Yep. We're mostly signed. We're still eight minutes ahead of schedule. Do you guys want to try to go into the... We think about going into the executive session, since this is pretty much the executive session group right here. Going to be able to do that in eight minutes, do you think? Well, they might wait. I have... I downloaded an upgraded version of Zoom where I can talk to the people in the chat room so I could just tell them that we're in an executive session. Well, let's see if we can do it. Let's try... We can come out of the executive session and go back in if we have to. Okay. Yep. So, we just need a motion and then we need to kick... We need to temporarily put some people in the waiting room. Yep. So, a motion to go into executive session. And we would include Sarah Andorinda and Shane and Victor. Yes. Is Victor on? He is. He's being quiet tonight. He's looking a little lighter than usual. It must be it's getting dark outside. Okay. I'll make the motion to the statutory requirements so stated in the agenda. Oh, second. Okay. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Welcome. So, before we start going through this, Dorinda, you mentioned you found a couple of addition errors. Are they significant? Do we need to... Yeah. And I didn't bring home the paperwork that... I don't think... Well, wait a minute. Maybe I did. Okay. The first section, winter maintenance, that adds up to $61,880. Hold on a second. Hold on. Yeah. I apologize. I don't know where I got the $62,680. Okay. No, no, no, no. I missed something. $68 instead of $62. $61,880. $61. Instead of $62,600. $61,80. $61,880. That's it. And then the budget that was approved, the total budget last year for the whole highway was... Not the whole wide, but the expenses that didn't include debt service was $728,869. And the new... $722,728,869. $869, yeah. And the new budget that's been presented adds up to $743,468. So there must be one of those other categories that's different also. Oh, yeah. Under wages and benefits, he had plugged in... There was another one there, yeah. So wages and benefits under this year adds up to $337,913. But in the stuff that I sent out, which I think you all received this afternoon, I noted we plugged in, just as placeholders, the last year's budgeted amounts until we get past next week's meeting and we get our new insurance rates. Okay. So those... So that number is... But that wages and benefits, that portion would be $337,913. For both years. Well, no, the year before it was $344,61. What's the page you sent out? That's because of the uniforms. The uniform went down though, right? No, right, yeah. I'm sorry, I just went by the budget sheet that I had that said it was $333,821 for this year we're on. That's what it was in there as, because I took the numbers out of the book. That was... Yeah, that's what it's in there. On the budget sheets that you sent me to see how much I spent, and it's in there as $333,821. That's where I got that number from. Well, and the one that got published was $344,61. So I don't know. That's a lot. It doesn't matter. The wages and benefits... Are going to change anyway. Anyway, so, you know, it's good to know roughly what it was last year, but in terms of what it's going to be next year, that's the subject of the meeting next week. All right. No problem. Okay, thank you, Dorinda. So Shane, go ahead, Shane or Victor, whoever's gonna... Well, I don't know how I'm close to do this. I've never done this before, so I've done the budget, but I've never had to present the budget. Well, I guess we can take this anyway, the budget committee and the other board members would like to have it. I guess what I'm interested in is basically the front page, the overview, and then any major changes in the detail, for instance, I noticed that we zeroed out pay mulch and netting and whatever the one above that is. Pay mulch lining. Yes, we can. About that, why those were zeroed out. But anyway, I don't think you need to go through page by page and line by line, unless other people would like to do that. No, I zeroed those out because they hadn't gotten used yet, and I increased our gravel budget so we could resurface some roads next year that needed drastically. Yeah, but what you're saying is we have, we have ditch lining material in stock or? Yes, well, if you're going to line ditches with stone, you don't want to really put fabric down if you're going to dig it back out and screen the stone anyway. That makes no sense to me. So, and then you have another category in there with ditch stone, so I just zeroed out that line and up the ditch stone itself. Okay, that's fine. Perfect. And basically then fuel, I up fuel because we don't know what the fuel prices are going to do this year, same thing with heating. I upped all that just a little bit. I tried to keep the budget pretty much the same. We just felt between Vic and I, we might want to protect ourselves. I don't know what the fuel costs are going to do. Yeah, everybody says they're going off big time. Yeah, they are. So I figured we better add a little just to make sure. Yeah. We looked at last year, we looked at what we used and what the, what it was budgeted 55 and we just upped it a little bit. Can we talk about the the road sand, the winter sand and the trucking for a minute? And just aren't we going to run through the big items and then ask specific questions? Let's do that if you don't mind, Randy. No, it's fine. Okay. So you just want me to say what I did for each category? Yeah. All right. So winter maintenance, I upped it, the trucking part of it. And so it's a little bit more this year. And the summer maintenance, I dropped some things down as you saw. So the summer maintenance is actually almost $4,000 less. Equipment maintenance, I upped a little bit. The price of materials, the price of everything has gone up. So we upped that by $7,750. Specialized services, I left alone. I left that the same. So can we just pause for a minute? Don't we didn't spend, we spent what? Half of our specialized services this past year? Yes. And what do we spend it on? We use that half on the ditching on East Hill. So that money, that money is essentially got me, as it always does, if we don't spend it, it goes back into the general fund. Right. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Thank you. Garage maintenance, I went down by $4,000. Utilities, like I said, I upped it a little bit. I don't know what they're eating. gang, can you tell us why it went up or down? I mean, what was your thinking about it? Other than just saying it went up 4, went down 4. I mean, like, why did you drop the maintenance on the building down 4? The garage maintenance altogether, I thought we were just going through the hole. Well, I mean, you know, the summary is like, overall, the budget went up this amount or went down that, but I mean, there must have been the thinking behind it, like we're going to do different projects in the summer, so we don't need as much money as we did in the last year or, you know, whatever the reason are that your budget. Yeah, so I dropped stuff down that I didn't think we needed to be as high next year, like small tools. I dropped it by 2,000 fuel tank maintenance. I dropped it by 2,000 just to try to keep the budget down for one. And for two, I felt with the tools that we have, we don't need that big expenditure on here with that much money. And when I upped equipment maintenance, it was because of the cost of everything. And like I said, fuel, gas and diesel have gone up and are going up, so that's up. Wages I didn't do anything with because I know that's going to change. And I did the same thing with highway miscellaneous. I tweaked some stuff where I didn't think we needed as much money because I went up in the construction a little bit, where I thought we'd need more money to work on roads and do ditching projects. Now that's the whole list. Do you want me to go through stuff individually or? Well, let's let's respond. Let's respond to questions. I think that's the best way to do it rather than Right. Why not? I don't know if everybody disagrees. So on garage maintenance, what did that go down 4,000 chain? That was the 2,000 for the fuel tank maintenance, which I left it at 500 because I really don't think we're going to spend that much money on fuel tank. And I went down 2,000 a small tool purchase. Oh, those are the components. Gotcha. Yeah. So I do have a question. I believe our intent was to build a roof over that fuel tank. Have we decided we're not going to do that? Well, we haven't had time for one. And I've tried to talk to a couple of contractors to see if anyone else has time. And with the price of materials, we decided to wait. We'll probably have to wait till next year at this point. We talked to a couple of people and they weren't going to be available. And and like Shane says, the materials were going to be kind of pricey. Oh, I think it's fine to wait. I just think ultimately it's a good idea to cover that. Yeah. Well, yeah, for one. So the guy when he fills up the fuel tank or gets fuel won't get wet. But yeah. Well, just yeah. Oh, it's not off the radar. It's postponed is what you're saying. Right. Frankly, the big, the big elephant in the room on this is the wages and benefits guys. The rest of this stuff is through it. I didn't think it was a hell of a lot to talk about the truth. I mean, as we know, you know, some of these items are going to move around. Some are actually going to be a little more and some are going to be a little less, etc., etc., etc. But I appreciate the I appreciate the detail. Good job. And we can deal with it. We're going to be dealing with the hard part. Next week. Yep. Other questions? Anyone? Budget committee? I have a I have a couple if if we're there. Sure. So just noticing under Culver chain, we get a bunch of stuff coming up on like center road and whatnot when they're doing all that work next spring. But the line item for culverts is going down. Is that covered underneath that paving bid and whatnot and not not handled by the town? No, it's handled by us, but I already have the culverts for center road here. I bought those this year. Okay. And I have more culverts actually ordered that are supposed to be incoming. So that'll just be for any extras we might need after the fiscal year next year. I mean, the hard part about this always is Randy. We're talking about the fiscal year, which starts next July. Yeah, absolutely. I get that. Okay. Thank you. Anything else, Randy? Yeah, I think the only other question I had is just I was looking at the trucking and the sand and the winter maintenance. And I was just curious on with all the work that was done in the pit, where, you know, obviously we're running about half the budget that we used to for the winter sand. But is that due to just the amount of material that we pulled out of there doesn't cover like a year's worth of sand and you're spreading it out? Or what's that? I guess I would know. No, that covers a year's worth of sand. So what is the $21,000 that's in the budget? If we've got all that sand already stockpiled and whatnot, what does that go to? Oh, no, that goes to the next year's sand. We got to do it all over again, Randy. So we stockpiled 6,000 yards. And, you know, if we don't use it, that number, we might not use that whole number. But if we have a bad winter and use a lot of sand, so that covers the cost of the screening of the sand. The screening. Okay, that's what I was getting at. It's not the sand itself, it's the screening. That's what I was getting at. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Corinda has a question. Yeah, Corinda. I just have a couple that I'm concerned about equipment repairs. Um, we're $16,000 over budget last year. We know what's been happening recently. Are we wise to leave that at $24,000? I thought they opt it. We opt the parts. Yeah, we opt the parts and some plies. But we just hope that nothing major happens. Hopefully we fixed everything. I mean, we're at $24,000 and we've actually used just shy of $13,000. I mean, that can be up if you guys want it up. I wasn't sure if we wanted to up that or just hope and pray that a truck in the excavator made it. Yeah, that's what this is for the following year. So we're going to have a new truck. So, Hi. That's what I was thinking. I just was concerned because we were so far over. And I know that we've had, we have ongoing issues. So and the other one was shop supplies. We were at $6,300 in June that we ended last year's budget at. And we're only, I don't know why we were so high, but we're still budgeting 2000. I don't know why we're so high on shop supplies either. I mean, that took over halfway through the year. So not unless something got put under the wrong category. On the ash trees along the roads, is that $5,000 for that? Like, are we finding that they're falling and that we have to maintain them? We need to talk to the state and find out if there's any more, because they had grant money available a couple of years ago, and they came around and marked all the ash trees. And what they wanted you to do was cut them down or pay to have them cut down and everything left right there on the roadside. And so we're in Maryshield, they hired someone to come in and cut the bigger ones down. And the road crew handled the smaller ones where they could. But that's something that needs to be done. There's quite a few ash around town. Some of them I think we can take care of, but some of them we can't. So, but I was going to look for grant money for that. So we didn't have to spend all of our money because there was grant money. I'm not saying there still is, but there could be. So that's something we need to look into. Hey Shane, this is Paul. If I can jump in, I've got a couple of questions and I can make a comment on the ash tree inventory. Sorcha Anderson, while I was still there, had kind of started an inventory of some means. I believe was going to use the conservation commission's help to do inventories. I think they were looking at some funding from the state or maybe even local roads or something like that. She would be one to, and I could get you her contact or Sarah could, but she had initiated that. I want to say she had tapered off from that project, but when everything really first started coming in hard, she had definitely kind of initiated that process. So she would be one, at least you could pick up whatever, crumbs or beginnings she had started on that. You could definitely contact her. The other question I had was roadside mowing it. I know it looked like some mowing had started to be done, but it didn't look like it had been finished this year. I may be wrong on that. I just wanted to see where that was at for this coming year. No, it was a nightmare this year. We got a flail mower because that was all, we didn't hire it out. I wanted to do it ourselves because you get more out of it. And the flail mower broke down twice and then we never got it back. So we just decided we were getting late in the year and we canceled it. And I've got them scheduled next year for two weeks in June and two weeks in August. Okay, and just to go off of what Randy was asking. So we're looking pretty good in regards to winter sand for the following year, what's available in the pit and kind of that investment. We all kind of gambled on as looking that it's still going to continue to pay dividends, I assume. It looks, I mean, from what I can see, it looks really good. There's one layer of clay in between the sand, but the sand we got into this year is some pretty decent looking stuff. And I'd like to think we could get a year or two out of it before it tapered, but maybe longer, I don't know, till we get digging around even deeper. No, fantastic. No, that's great. No, and then the only other thing, and I've got a little bit of vested interest in it, and so does Steve, but in regards to the fuel tank, it's great to see that you guys have done some preliminary homework. I would just urge to really continue that, even if we kind of locked someone in for next June or something like that, only because if I expressed how much work and money had went into removing that underground tank and how we kind of treated this aboveground tank like a newborn, just I've got some vested interest there. So I would love to see that come to fruition, even if we kind of locked someone in for later in the summer, I know how busy contractors are. So I'd love to see that progress keep going forward. Oh, absolutely. No, we're trying. I've got phone calls out to people. Sure. No, I got it. It's a good question. You're welcome. Do you want a question or comment? Steve? No, no. There's that one. Chair, I have a question. Can I ask a question? Yes, ma'am. What are specialized services? Is that that $40,000 you guys going to put toward East Hill Road? It's hiring a subcontractor to do projects that we don't have the time to do ourselves. Okay. Was that a separate article back in 2020? A separate, like, it was, right? Yeah, I think it was, yes. It was? No, it was part of the budget. It was part of the budget. That's right. It was part of the budget. So the specialized services that doesn't roll over every year, that's just, you just put it, like, last, I'm looking at $20,000, so originally you had $40,000 one year. I think that was what the voters passed in 2020 or 2019. I forget. Right. Maybe 2020. So then you had $40,000. Now you're taking it down to $20,000. And will that be used for East Hill Road or people care about this? Believe me, they want to know with that. That'll be used for, it might have to help us with Center Road in the spring. I don't know. I mean, if we don't want them to do it, we might have to hire someone to help us. If not, then, yeah, I will do something more on another road. So it's not the project. It's just the fact that that's used to hire people outside of the road crew to supplement the work. Absolutely. That's all I want to know. Thank you. Is it easy enough to change that to subcontracted services or something that's not, I mean, I agree with Sarah that the voters look at that and generates a lot of conversation. So as transparent as that can be, I don't know how easy it is for you to just change the names of the line items, but calling that subcontracted services or something like that would make more sense to me. So here's the only problem with that, Randy, and we get into this almost every year is every time when we change categories around or change names of categories or put things in different categories, we cause confusion. So the question is, my take would be people have been seeing specialized services. They've heard it talked about the last three or four years. Maybe we leave it alone, but that's just my thought. If we were starting out with it, I agree subcontracted services would be better. I think that at least from my viewpoint and the folks that I talk with, whenever the special services comes up, they're looking to see that attached to a specific project. So to have it as kind of a catch all and a slush fund, if you will, to help out here or there, I think is going to generate quite a bit of confusion in itself and conversation. I can see your point, Randy, but when you put out subcontractor services, it indicates that you're going to hire a subcontractor. If our excavator breaks down and we have to do, for example, ditching or culverts and we have to rent an item, we would use it for that. I understand that you're looking for a place to put some flexible money. Well, that's what it sounds like to me. Nobody can talk about what it's really there for. And it's, well, this, it might be used for that. It might be used for this. It's flexible money, Steve. Start it out. It's very specific projects, as I recall. And I think we are going back two years before the current year. And I can't remember up the top of my head, but there were some very, very specific things that we were doing that we had focused that money on. I think we did a lot of it for months, season mitigation. And my recollection is we actually didn't use it. It was a special vote. That was my recollection, a special vote, and it was a big to do. And then we never actually spent the money. I thought we did. We did in the first year. I don't think we did. Steve, which was a problem because, you know, we weren't able to get to remember how we're behind on the roads and the mud mitigation. That was my recollection. I think we spent it the first year because that's when we did those three projects. I can't remember to tell you the truth. I mean, Randy, I believe me. We want to be as transparent as we can be. And when we have a big project like Center Road, you know, I mean, we could say right now it's likely we're going to use that specialized services for Center Road because I'm sure we're going to have way more than that and expenses there. We're going to need to hire some time to clarify the first time it was budgeted was the FY 2021 budget and it was for $40,000. Last year, we cut $20,000 out of it. Right. Was it always a line item or was the $40,000 a special article? Always a line item. It was a line item. It wasn't a special article. Right. I didn't remember a special article. That's why I haven't. And originally it was budgeted so much for trucks, so much for excavator rental, and $6,000 towards a month's worth of wages. Right. And that was to handle the ditching projects that at that point in time, the road crew wasn't able to handle if I remember correctly. Right. And then last year we moved the budget item from we created a line item under special services that said subcontractor. Okay. And not that budget just for your information, that budget last year was more than $20,000. Originally I had put in I think it was $32,000 and I cut $12,000 out of the budget at the end of our budget meeting. Yeah, I remember that. Other questions for Shane or Victor or anybody? So as I said, as I said a while ago, the big elephant in the room is going to be the wages and benefits that we're going to talk about next week. And we're going to be spending some money there for sure. Okay then. Whoops, go ahead, Marie. I said we're way ahead of schedule. The bad news, why? No, I mean, because we don't have our, we don't have whatever we have, we have that BCA meeting, don't we? Yeah. Can I just, while I got the budget committee here, just remind you guys that we're going to have a special meeting on Tuesday, the 9th, to talk about wages. So yeah, and of course you'll be here, wages and compensation. It's same, same bad time, 5 p.m. Okay. Good to know. So you guys will start 5 or budget workshop at 5 or? All it's going to be is just money, money, money. Five o'clock. And then I think they'll probably go into and then they'll probably go to a regular meeting to talk about amending the personnel thing. So by that time you guys can leave. Does that work for your schedule? That's Tuesday the 9th. Tuesday the 9th. So you guys good with me? Am I done for the night? I think they is. I would say, I would say you are done. Well done. All right. I really appreciate the way, the way you laid this out. And I know you haven't done this before, but good job. Good job. Thank you. Thanks, Shane. Thanks, Vic. Thank you, Shane. Victor. Thank you guys. Did you guys see Christian before your meeting? Did he go over the capital spending plan with you guys today? Yeah. Yeah, we went with him before this. Did that go okay? Yeah, I think so. You know, sort of another run-through of the process and a chance I think for a sort of work through, I don't know, Mark and Mark especially, you've been through it less than I have. So yeah, I think Christian's got a pretty good start here to a process. And we walked through just some specific scenarios and how they would play out. And we spent a fair amount of time in the capital expense planning workbook. So I think which was helpful for all of us to see what Christian's objective was in terms of spreading out capital allocation to create as much as possible a smoothing of the tax rate we needed. So I think it was very educational. You know, obviously he knows the Stephanie's. He's certainly willing to meet with us again if needed. Who's Christian? He's from the Central Vermont Regional Planning Commission helping us with the capital spending plan. And he met with the Budget Committee today before this meeting. Christian Meyer, right? Yeah. Everyone good? Thank you very much, Budget Committee. All right, thank you. Awesome. We'll adjourn the Budget Committee. So I think the last thing on our Select Board agenda is seeking a letter of support for an ice rink grant. And Mitch, I presume that's why you are here. That is correct. All right ahead. Okay, well, in a nutshell, I had some conversations with some folks involved with RUMNY a few weeks ago. They basically indicated that they would love to see an ice rink reestablished this year. I think it's something we've done years ago, but it hasn't happened for a few years. And I said, I don't have the means to do it all by myself. But if people are interested, I would be happy to help facilitate this. And so far, so good. I have put together a very crude budget. And in a nutshell, I think I can get a rink built for between $5,000 and $5,500. Some of this is going to be for materials that will be largely reusable for several years. So it's not something where I'm going to come back, ask them for the same kind of money every year. But one of the things I found out recently was that the AARP does a placemaking event once a year. And I attended a workshop last week. And as part of this program, they are offering $6,000, $4,000 grants for something they call winter placemaking. And I've talked to the folks there and they think that what I'm proposing is the sort of thing that no guarantees, of course, but they said this is the sort of thing they would be interested in looking at. So I'm putting together a grant proposal. The application deadline is Friday, November 12. And one of the required elements is a letter of support from a town body, such as the select board. So sorry for the short notice, but I would like to get a letter of support for this project. And I'm going to be looking to some other organizations, mostly affiliated with Romney to provide some additional letters of support to help make our grant as solid as I can get it. And I'd be happy to answer some questions if you've got them. So I have a couple of questions, Mitch. So I presume a lot of the labor is going to be volunteer labor. Yes. And if the cost is $5,500 and the grant is $4,000, is there money in the recreation budget for the $1,500? I will have to look into this. One of the things I'm looking at is, hey, does the school, I sort of guess the school doesn't have money laying around that they haven't figured out what to do with. But that's the other thing I've talked to the group of people I'm interested in is, hey, we're going to, I think I can come up with most of the money, but we're going to have a little shortfall. Do we want to pass the hat? Does anybody have any ideas about who can, how we can come up with, you know, it's not a ton of money. I don't think that we'll have trouble asking for some donations and getting there. But yeah, this whole project presumes that I can pay for it. I'm not going to come to that. So at this point in time, you're asking for the use of town land and permission to go ahead with this project. You're not asking us for money. Correct. Okay. Wait a minute. In the budget you presented, you had a $500 line item for it. That's next year. Oh, okay. So this, this you're going to do during the current year. Correct. Oh, okay. Okay. And I'm sorry, are you doing for your time to do this work? I guess, I want to know that sort of like perhaps a little bit, but I'm hoping to not invest too much of my time in it. But what I would put in would not be beyond the scope of my normal recreation work. I don't mind volunteering a little time myself, but that's all that needs for this thing to happen. But I'm not doing this as a way to generate money from the town for my pocketbook. That's for certain. Okay. And my other question is, where is the rink? Where would the rink be built in the place behind the school where it was before? I proposed a couple of ideas. Those that was one for reasons I'm not sure of the school said they would prefer not to do it there. They would actually prefer to build it on the tennis basketball courts, which isn't probably my idea location, but I think it would work for this year. But longer term, that's not really, I don't think that's a great place for a nice rink myself, but another possibility to build it on the recreation field itself. Gonna kill the grass. I thought about that. Oh, go ahead. Help me out, Mitch. So isn't the land where the rink was previously, which is directly behind the school? That was school land, correct? That is school land. Right. And actually, that's a question. And I don't want to spend a lot of time on that tonight, but I was going to ask Liz about this. And Peter, maybe you know, when I started doing recreation director stuff, seemed to me that Bill Kalman suggested to me that the shed behind the school and the basketball slash tennis court are town property, not school property. I don't know that for a fact, but I thought at some point, they definitely are town property. Okay, very good. I guess my concern is just, you know, we're in a process of, I guess I would say, negotiating, reaching an understanding with the school about what the town's use of the school building and school property is. And they have not been very welcoming so far to say the least. They seem to think that they, that in our, I guess it's a purchase and sales agreement, but basically we gave them our school building that we would be able to use it for town meeting every year, but they don't, they seem very reluctant to have us use it for anything else, which is not my understanding of what the deal was. But I just want to be very careful when we're dealing with the school that we keep the lines clear. Right. I understand that. So this is going to be, if this is going to be a town project, if there's a way to do it on town land, I think that's better than it's in our control. Okay. Question about who, who supervises it or deals with it or whatever it is. The minute it's on school property, they're going to start acting like it's their rank in my opinion. Right. I understand that. And I guess that's probably a vote in the favor of the current proposal. So I guess I could live with that. But yeah, I understand. And I will. The other thing I don't understand just to let me finish is what the potential harm or damage to the basketball court is if we put the hockey rink on top of that pad, is it likely to damage it? Is it, I have no idea, but it sounds like a bad idea to me. Crack it. Yeah. It sounds like a bad idea to me because it might crack all of it. Well, yes. I've talked to people in recreation programs in several different towns, and I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, but I'll say some people don't like building ice rink on a hard court because they say it sort of helps let the ice, the frost penetrate deeper, which could degrade the foundation. My thought is that the current tennis court is in such bad shape that doing this for one year isn't going to make a substantial difference. I don't know that I necessarily want to do it long term this way, but if that's just something that will let us get going this year, I'm willing to give it a try. But what I'm working on is something that's going to be flexible. It'll be portable. We can move it different places if we find a different, different sort of different location. That's better. And as far as killing the grass, I do know that City of Montpelier builds a ice rink on the State House lawn the past few winters, and the grass comes back pretty quick in the summertime and greens up. I don't think if we were to move it to, for example, the recreation field longer term, I don't think that's going to be a problem either, but for several reasons, I think I want to try the tennis court for this year. What I would ask you to do, Mitch, is just when you have this more organized as to how it's going to work and where it's going to be and what it's going to be, is just come back to us and let us say, yep, that sounds good. Yeah, I'm going to be putting together a more solid budget and I'm working with the volunteer folks to kind of lay out a schedule. Here's the things we have to do. Here's the volunteer staffing we have to come up with and that's going to let us or we'll either have a warming available, at least temporarily just depending on what we get for volunteers, but yeah, I'm working all that out. I will be happy to come back to you and talk to you about what this is going to look like before winter comes. Okay, the last time we used that warming hut as a warming hut, it was a nightmare. It got trashed and damaged and everything under the sun. So what I will do is make sure that it's only open when there's a volunteer there to supervise. Well, let's get back to us. I am I for me, yes sir. I think what Mitch needs is a letter of support by a certain deadline, isn't that right? That's what I was about to say. I am comfortable recommending that we offer a letter of support with the understanding that he's going to come back to us with final details of exactly how this is going to work and how it's going to be funded. Yep, if you want me to write a letter and somebody signed it, I'm happy to do that. If you've done this sort of thing before and know what you want to write, I don't mind somebody else writing it either. Sarah can write the letter, I'll sign it. Okay, I will get Sarah details. That's a simple wait a minute. We probably need a motion to do that. Would somebody make that motion please? We provide a letter of support for the ice rink project. Is there a second? Hold on a second. Mary and Steve, the Mary and Steve show. Okay, it's been moved in a second that we provide Mitch with a letter of support for his grant application for the ice rink. All in favor, please say aye. Any opposed? Okay, Mitch. Thank you very much. As soon as Sarah has that ready, I'll hold on a second, Dorinda. As soon as Sarah has that ready, I'll stop down and sign it and she'll let you know or I'll let you know and you can pick it up. Very good. Thank you much. What's your deadline? Friday as well. A week from Friday. Oh, okay, so we have time. Okay, good. Dorinda. Before Mitch leaves, I have a question for next year's budget. And it's kind of a question to him and a question to the board. Last year, we had put a facility maintenance fund in the budget and put $500 in that as a line item. I guess, first of all, there's nothing budgeted for that, yes, for FY23. And was that $500 supposed to get moved to an actual fund that's accumulated or was that a one-time thing? Well, my hope was to start putting aside a small amount, maybe even as little as $500 each year with the goal of using that for maintenance, particularly the tennis and basketball courts. But I believe I failed to check in with you guys to see. I know in some cases, budget items don't carry over. They're supposed to be spent the year they're allocated. Oh, is that always the case? Yeah, unless you establish, unless we establish a fund, for instance, we have a bridge fund, a paving fund. Right. And those do go in the line item budget and then we move it without that money out of the line item into a fund. But there was $212 spent in last year's budget. So that's why I'm confused. Is it a fund or is it an expense account or what's going on? Okay, I will apologize for not being an accountant. I should probably talk to you at some time when you don't have a million things going on. Maybe that's never a problem. I would like to have a better idea about how I can set up a responsible budgeting to kind of help with things like maintenance but without, I don't want to also obviously confuse your accounting processes. So I'll be happy to talk to you about that later. So for now, I'll just leave that with me. I mean, you want some money for maintenance is what you're saying. So should we plug something in there? Yes. Well, I think we've deferred maintenance on the, again, the big ticket item is the tennis court. We've deferred maintenance on that for a while and I need to, I am working on trying to get a better handle on just what it's going to cost to renovate that space so it's more usable and I would like to have a better picture of just how we're doing that year to year so that it's not, I don't want to wait, you know, to some year and say, oh, we're going to spend a bunch of money this year and then I won't bother you guys again. I'd rather put a little money in each year so that we kind of keep it in good shape. Well, it's going to be a long time. We're going to be putting in $500 for 20 years before we have, or more before we have enough. We need to get some kind of a grant or something to do that. I'm doing some research on that as well. Okay. Thank you, Mitch. All right, Sara. Just to be clear, that facility fund for the recreation department, is that something that is a pre-existing fund that the voters voted on? Do you guys know? I can go check on the motions. No, it was a line item budget, but we have, we do it with bridges and we do it with something else that falls in the line item, but then we move paving and then we move it into a special market fund. Okay. So I'm just saying that if you're going to roll over money every year, you have to have the voters have to create a fund. So they've somewhere along the line, they've created a big bridges fund, a paving fund. Yeah, probably years ago, 20 years ago. I don't know. To roll it over, you have to do that. So I guess that's my question, Mitch. If you're interested in doing that, that's probably something you should talk about with the board to create. Yeah, I think, you know, I've talked to Dorinda before and I do understand that we have a paving fund. Last I remember talking to her, there was something like maybe $1,700, maybe a little more in there, but that was the fund I was anticipating we would use for resurfacing the tennis court at some point. But it's actually a, there is a recreation fund already existing. Good. That's all you need. At some point, the voters must have created it. Yeah. All right. Well, I will be happy to chat about that at a time where you're not swamped in other work, but okay. Well, anytime just give me a call. All right. I will shoot you an email. All righty. Thank you much. Anything else for the select board meeting before we move to the BCA meeting? Okay. So if just for scheduling purposes, what we'll do is on on the ninth start off with a budget committee, do all the budget committee stuff, move that, then do the amending the personnel plan and then and the policy and then be done. Does that make sense? Does that order work for you guys? We're doing the budget. We're going to talk about the salaries of our employees. But my only concern is that if we amend the personnel policy, then you might have an idea about whether or not you can, when you're talking about compensation, dealing with all this other stuff. Do you understand what I'm saying? Okay. Just tell me which goes first. That's all I care about. Amending. Amending the personnel policy goes first and then the compensation. Okay. Thank you. That was the direction I needed. Okay. So we are adjourning the select board meeting and Liz, you are on for the BCA meeting. Okay. Is Chris McVeigh here? He said he was going to join. So far, all we have is Jan's here, Theo's here. Is this all Theo? Okay. Why don't we just wait a minute because Chris said he was going to join. It's 6.28 right now. Does everyone mind if we wait? No. If he doesn't join by 6.30, I'll start. It was a warrant for 6.30 anyway. So what's the joke of the day Liz? We were supposed to leave our office because the air flow stopped working. They didn't want us to catch COVID without good air flow. So we had to go home and we can't go into the office tomorrow. That's a great start. I'm being, I wonder how the state's doing with all their employees coming back in the office. I'm getting my booster on Thursday and planning to be sick on Friday. Theo, congratulations on being a grandfather. Is this your first time? So sweet. Hello, everybody. Yeah, it is. And I'm wicked excited. Was this one of your daughters or do you have an older son? I think you might have. It's my eldest daughter. I had a little boy named Miles. Is that Miles? That's my son's name. I know. Is that another guy? Yeah, I know you've not met her. She's older than I am. She's 35, so. I thought you had a different daughter. I was like, I don't think Anya had a baby, but if she did, get on her. Not yet. That's cool. Thank you. And is she nearby? In Providence, Rhode Island, and we'll go down and visit. Fun. That's fun. Thank you. I can give you some counseling on how you spoil grandchildren if you need any. I'm an expert. All right. Well, it's 6 30. Chris has not joined. So let's call the board of civil authority to order at 6 p.m. It's 30. I'm sorry. 6 30 p.m. Do we have any guests? We have Jan Theo. Oh, there's Jan. Yeah, Randy. Is there anyone else who's not on the board? Orca. Okay. Alrighty, so feedback on the legislative apportionment board's district legislative district reapportionment. On October 15, 2021, the legislative apportionment board completed the first phase of its detailed review of the impact of the 2020 US census population changes in Vermont towns and cities. And on the existing legislative districts, the lab has requested boards of civil authorities to respond with feedback before November 15, 2021. Middle sex and Eastmont failure are still merged. The part of Eastmont Pillar will align with callous action, likely. And then we just got an email in sort of an 11th hour email that callous had met and had a discussion. And Sarah, if you wouldn't mind, if you could explain to us a little bit about what this means, because I have a actually a fairly hard time understanding sort of your role in this and what this would look like if we were to change. Well, so far, there's not really any change to middle sex right now. The way we were part of Washington five, and we were it was one, it was all of middle sex and all of Eastmont Pillar, then I guess middle sex loss 7.3% population or our district or Washington four lost together we lost 7%. So I guess callous gain. No, that's wrong, whatever. There was a 7% loss in middle sex. We're getting at the map right now. I can share that. Actually, yeah, one of the things I've got here is that so it's really hard to I printed out a map of comparing the two the two districts before and after and it looks like a list has got it good. Excellent. I'm just going to bring up middle sex. Does that make sense? I have this, I have this, I have the exact same thing. So yes. So Washington four, which is the new proposed district is as you can see, a little smaller than Washington five, which used to be Eastmont Pillar and middle sex. Now to even it out to create a to even out the district that what they did was they took off a little bit of Eastmont Pillar and gave it to here comes John and gave it to I'm sorry just having a hard time hitting this callous. So now callous is saying well actually this isn't the most equitable distribution. And what you really want to do is merge all of callous and all of Eastmont Pillar together and just cut off middle sex and where we would go I'm not sure I don't know if we would go with Worcester I don't know what would happen in middle sex. But because part of Eastmont Pillar is cut off and given to callous in this proposal that means that the only town that's that remains whole which is middle sex that town would be the seat of the legislative district such as it is that means I would be the clerk for Washington for but other than that I can't see anything that's any different it would be really weird and I don't understand what would happen if we cut off middle sex from Eastmont Pillar which is now represented by Kim Jessup we have one representative and that's Kim Jessup and she lives in middle sex so I don't know what would happen to them maybe I guess they would have to find somebody else so that's that's the that's the scuttle butt going around and if that's just back that is just the response from the callous informational meeting and I guess what we have to do is just fill out a questionnaire for the legislature that says you know what are we what have we reviewed and what do we recommend and what do we want changed because Eastmont Pillar had its meeting at Sarah they're going to have their meeting on Tuesday next Tuesday so we don't know what they're going to say we don't know what they're going to say but a change like if callous if callous suggestion of taking um all of Eastmont Pillar that would affect like our House of Representative right that would affect Kim Jessup like in future elections yes yes I mean Kim's from middle sex so they couldn't elect her so that's all well and good if they do that but then as you said Liz who do we get hooked up with that yeah I think that we should go record is saying we do not want to be merged with any town that we haven't already been merged with in the recent past so we don't end up saying hey we're happy uh and then we end up being with Worcester so can I ask is Washington three does watch is Worcester currently in Washington three I have to go look at the map I've just printed it out um yes Worcester is currently part of Washington three callous and Woodbury it looks like oh wow that was a plan ages ago that they were going to be part of that okay um wouldn't we say we would prefer we would prefer to stay aligned with Eastmont Pillar yeah I mean I I understand what callous is saying but I mean that sounds like a lamb grabbed to me they want to they want to suck up all of Eastmont Pillar yes yes yeah what would they what would they get out of that what's the advantage they um probably a smaller district geographically because if they're just going to be due callous in Eastmont Pillar that's a lot smaller than what the Washington three looks like right now what's Washington three right now that's what I'm assuming it's what's up there with the little appendage added on yeah I can see it printing in front of it this says um the callous BCA held their informal meeting last night that included the representative Janet Ansel along with members of the public the consensus came out that the discussion was that the Eastmont Pillar sliver is ridiculous they'd prefer to get the adamant community more of a direct connection though although density is lacking and the district as a whole makes little sense they expect to be submitting feedback suggesting that callous and Eastmont Pillar become a single district the numerical fit is actually slightly better than middle sex slash Eastmont Pillar callous slash Eastmont Pillar how about if we say that we'd like to have it just be middle sex in Eastmont Pillar callous can go wherever they go is that is that little sliver added on just to equal out the numbers probably yes I'm sure but can I just ask a question right now middle sex because I'm having a hard time I can't see town lines in this thing um and Sarah maybe you know so if we choose middle sex um here's middle sex right here uh here's what's Washington 7-1 is that Montpelier those are all those are two Montpelier districts okay and then Eastmont Pillar over here right right now we have all of Eastmont Pillar except for this little pink sliver which is adamant is that correct oh I I think that's included I think that's being added on oh that's being added on right so I'm sorry over here on the right I I'm sorry so on the right Eastmont Pillar we have everything including adamant adamant exactly well you know I'm just looking at this map from last year so if we it would be really weird to cut off middle sex because Worcester I guess Worcester would have to break Worcester is a two-county um or it was it's a see it's got it's it's Worcester is in Washington County but it merges for the in the legislative district with Lemoyle so it's like I could see that they were trying to keep Wall of Worcester in Washington County with Woodbury, Callis and Worcester because Elmore is in Lemoyle County because as it currently exists Worcester is part of Elmore, Morristown and Woodbury which are you know uh that's just seems weird so I think that's what they were trying to do so Callis is currently with Marshfield and Plainfield and doesn't like that for some reason Callis is the proposed is that Callis becomes Worcester, Woodbury and a sliver of Eastmont Pillar that's right and they're saying no we don't want that we want Callis to be Callis and Eastmont Pillar and middle sex can go figure out their own thing that's right I think you said it perfectly and we don't have exactly what we don't want yeah yeah I don't think I mean I think from so we're we're losing a little bit which is a little weird I agree that it's a little weird that we lose adamant and I feel bad for the adamant people I'm curious to see what Eastmont Pillar is going to say right like what is their feeling on it big one right they're the one who stands to actually loot you know right um lose part of their people like their next door neighbor is going to be voting for someone different did anybody by the way ask him jesse to come tonight no this is the bca meeting I know but I mean yeah no I should have yeah Janet answers this happened to be at the bca meeting well to be fair I didn't I I had absolutely no idea about this Callis thing until about three o'clock this afternoon so it was kind of it seemed like status quo pretty much except for a tiny part of Eastmont Pillar you're not getting and it wasn't going to change much of anything and it wasn't going to change our roles too much but now that Callis appears to be at the 11th hour saying they're going to submit something not the 11th hour but that they're going to submit a change I would say that I mean my recommendation is that we um you know request that it stays um the way that they recommended I guess right yeah that we're fine with the recommendation this is Theo I support that actually but can I just ask as a matter of process because these things aren't going to be finalized until May and certainly the legislature is not in session till January what is the timeline for our response here can we wait and learn the Eastmont Pillar position well we're supposed to respond by November 15th which is right down this right believe it or not right around the corner that's a week from yesterday no two weeks yesterday I just would add that it feels a little bit like overreaching to me on the part of Callis um I mean it seems to be a sugaring out of the census data and we lose a chunk and but I support the request to otherwise stay intact with their recommendation I think we should wait Eastmont Pillar's waiting as can I guess the question is do we and we might might have another BCM but we seem to be having nothing but meetings I mean does it make sense to have Liz as the chairman of the BCA to reach out to the Eastmont Pillar BCA and say what are you guys thinking why not yeah but I think we should reach out with a proposal rather than just saying what are you thinking tell them we would we would like with their concurrence we would like to keep their the recommendation as it stands right and and still be aligned with them you know and part part of their interest is that they already know can yeah I think they're not going to be happy with losing a piece to Callis what happens if Callis doesn't take that small piece they're they're completely changing Callis that's why Callis isn't happy they're completely it's all done by the legislature they can weigh in but they they don't get to say forget it it's all done by the legislature and it's all going to get to I mean it was a four or three recommendation and the chair of the committee voted against it so I mean it doesn't come in very strong with the way it's come in I mean that's you know what really guys we the chair Liz should be pointing people so that we we have a like an organized system of talking Mary what would you like to say continue here uh now I forgot what I was gonna say so um all I'm saying is the good news is if Eastbound Pillar agrees with us that makes our case stronger the bad news is this was a four three decision by the commission and the chair didn't vote for a time little an incredibly sensible person and so I think the legislature's going to feel really free to redraw the lines and so I think it's a long road for this read the redrawing no he didn't vote for this he was one of the three who voted against it and so I I think that it would be great if we can solidify our relationship with Eastbound Pillar and get them to support us and that's why I think it'd be nice for you to touch bases with Kim too yes I'll definitely get in touch with Kim because she'll know where to civil authority as well are there any other comments that people want to make yes so I think that they I think that these back room negotiations are great but I also think that one of the purposes of having this meeting is to um is to state the board of civil authority's position I think we ought to take a vote and say that you know come out instead of waiting for what other towns are doing to come out and say the board of civil authority and in middle sex you know strongly unanimously recommends that we stay with Eastbound Pillar for a whole host of logical reasons and that way we can lead the way as opposed to waiting for what everybody else is saying so how long has our district been connected with Eastbound Pillar like this and plus we should point out that if callus got appendicitis it'd be screwed I guess I guess Peter I guess I guess in uh in thinking about this I like I like Sarah's approach let's take the high road and let's let's say that and at the same time uh Liz reach out and and let Eastbound Pillar know that we've done that and we'll see what happens I I agree with Mary when it when it's a split decision chances are all kinds of crazy stuff's gonna happen before this is finalized and it will all be done in the house because this is uh this is the house and the house draws the airlines and the senate draws their lines right are there any other comments that people want to make yes Sarah so we have this uh we have this feedback form we have to fill out and while we're all here I just want to if we could just give her answers so that we can answer the feedback form you know entirely unless you want to do it Liz but um so like no you can do it but I mean descriptions of recommends to be changed we don't want to do that but if we go to question 10 rationale and comments what are our rationale and comments that we can put into this feedback form that we have to submit before November 15th about why we want to stay with Eastmont Pillar I guess it would help if we knew how long we've been with them well I bet I bet it's going back to Tony Klein yeah I would say around you know relationship building with our legislature um and the relationship building with their community and to you know sort of throw in a new community that they're not familiar with is going to be a challenge I think it's a one you could say similar um suburban um demographic demographic well I was going to say suburban yeah or you could say rural Montpelier oriented demographic did it say in Callis's email what they suggested we do no support them I don't care what we do I think we could just say historically linked yeah um I would also say I would also maybe think about the the geography um because who else would we join in with potentially Worcester and Woodbury those aren't even like Middlesex isn't even linking us to Woodbury it wouldn't be there's not yeah there's no geographic connection there so yeah Sarah so the other thing is when you look at the map yeah if you remove if you don't go with this apportionment it's kind of screws everybody up right you know if we go with if we go with Worcester I don't know how that adds up population wise but then you know right not enough then you've got Elmore and Wolkett together that's certainly not going to be enough so it's it it's a when you pull that string the whole thing unravels and also uh the good thing about this apportionment that they've got now is that it removes uh Worcester from Lamoille and puts it in Washington which is nice for everybody um Mary did Tom little say why he posts this particular um configuration because you know I I'm not sure I'm not I I'm I'm trying to recall where I heard this and I can't remember I'm why he didn't do it because it may have been it may have been the single a single legislative Senate seats I mean I just don't remember I mean I know and Barry they're upset because they want to have um single Barry seats and in my pillar they want to have single seats and so there's a lot of that discomfort I would I would bet you it doesn't have anything to do with us you know I would I would let it some other districts that got people who are who are hopping mad and putting pressure on them I don't know who knows why don't why don't we um list um um as a benefit new plan brings uh Worcester back into Washington county there's nothing wrong with putting that in yeah I agree you wait say that again you're suggesting that we add no no no just showing the benefit of this of this new plan brings Worcester back to Washington county yeah okay that's what you're saying yeah also um we could comment and say callous plan would leave leads to a domino effect of of illogical results consequences lead to middle sex aligning with um towns with which it has no relationship or you know something like that or the domino effect that would require redraft a redoing district many many others if we still have if we still have East Montpelier then Rosie their town clerk will be the district clerk and Sarah gets off the hook well we can't put that down no if if if the if we get if the current system stands then I'm the district clerk because of East Montpelier's last a little bit of its community oh that's right they lost a little sliver yeah right and so that's actually I want to bring go circle back to that piece because if I were East Montpelier I would be concerned about that so I'm not sure if we want to have on the back burner that we would be supportive of East Montpelier seizing back adamant and that would be we would be okay with that it's I think though there's something about that's going to be too many people perhaps um it is the population has grown or something um but East Montpelier that's a very small part for them to um to lose um and I just you know I think they they they they may question that and um what are you do we have a sort of a backup plan of supporting that if if possible and what that would look like well we don't know what the standard deviation is we don't know what the deviation that's allowable right at least I don't remember maybe maybe you do the materials you got or maybe no maybe um uh our town clerk got well you got them too Mary they're all the links you can link on I sent all those links you can go in through all the maps figure it out I'll get in touch with so I think that for for today's purpose does anyone else have any comments Theo it looked like you had something you wanted to say yeah well just tiny bit on the idea of not I mean I'm supportive of consistency here and and taking lead but the language around not working with certain groups I mean at the end of the day if things were changing us we'd work with our compatriots wherever they were in Washington County I just see the callous thing at least my perception of it is it's they need to justify more what they think they're asking for that's different uh and I still don't I don't really understand why they are trying to so fundamentally reconfigure uh so I would if there's a motion in order maybe it's premature but to take the lead and say we'd like to accept the recommendation submitted yeah yeah I second that motion if that's a real motion well it was an attempt I didn't want I didn't want to foreclose conversation but kind of makes sense to just I thought Sarah wanted to go through all the questions before we voted no that's actually that was the the most uh I just want to make sure that we didn't like vote and go because that sometimes happens so I just wanted to get to the rationale and Mary to answer your question if you click on the districts Washington three as now devised which is callous Woodbury and Worcester has a population of 3957 Washington four with the little cutout is 3973 so it's it's fairly close um and that keeps callous in uh that keeps Worcester in uh not associated with LaMoyle it keeps it in Washington County all together so just to I mean they're almost even I can see why they did what they did well that's exactly the point but I mean like what we don't know is how much is adamant if it came back in how much would that deviate we're they're both 3900 minus and you know adamant like if it's another 200 it's going to skew at 200 more in our district and 200 less so it's a net of 400 difference you know see what I'm saying that's why it's hard for us to say that we we support having adamant come back in well I think I can do the math because when we were middle sex and Eastmont Pillar in the previous configuration we were uh the deviation was positive 135 without uh so that's that's the 2012 alignment is that I don't know who that was was that Tony Klein possibly the 2021 alignment is is negative 314 so I suppose if you add 135 and 314 you can find out what what we what what adamant offered or take 135 from 314 right yeah but I thought we lost I mean it's based on an updated census and we lost seven percent so we have to add in right except I don't know whether or not those figures they gave for us are seven percent minus that without adamant is what I'm saying right I think we should not talk about adamant because we don't really okay without knowing before okay so any further discussion on that okay so all those in favor of the motion from Theo in the second from Sarah that we um indoor heat the the um did redistricting the way that the map has stated for 2022 wouldn't it be for a decade for a decade for the next 10 years well yeah yeah all those in favor hi hi hi any opposed the eyes have it and we are ending the bca meeting at 6 57 p.m are you supposed to take any other business to come before the board I don't think we have that on the agenda do I uh I just want to ask is it possible do do you want me to do this questionnaire Liz or do you want to do the questionnaire would you do the questionnaire just tell the board should just say who could you who should do the questionnaire or do you want me Sarah I move that we ask Sarah to complete the questionnaire and I say trust me then all right okay well all those in favor say don't we use the word a point I second the appointment Sarah okay we don't really have to move that though do we no okay I didn't think so but and I will get in touch with Kim to just have a conversation with her so you said that calluses or east one pillar is having their meeting on Tuesday Sarah yes I wonder if I should go east one pillar east one pillars yes you should but we're having a meeting um next Tuesday we are blackboard yes yeah we're having a special why are we just like for me tonight well I know we're having a bit complicated oh we just talked about guys I'm sorry I go by my calendar and for the rest of your life we have select board meeting so Tuesday the 9th we have a select board meeting yeah okay well it's not on my calendar well that's your problem I know I'm putting it on my calendar right now so are we adjourned yeah the following Tuesday we have a select board meeting thank you everybody good night thank you