 I'm Judy Strayer. I'm Judy Strayer and as chair of the local historic district commission, I'm calling this meeting to order at 308 PM. On Monday, July 11. The 11th, I think. Yeah, 22. And minutes. Excuse me, minutes are being taken and the meeting is being recorded as usual. We're not having a public hearing. So we don't need to read that statement. Correct. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Should we do roll call? Bruce Coldham. Yes, I'm hearing. Can you hear me? Yes, I guess. Greta Wilcox. Here. And Karen winter. Here. And I'm Judy Strayer and I am here also. So I believe that's awesome. Yeah, so since we didn't, there weren't any applications been said. So I didn't know if you guys would want to meet or not, but I thought at least in terms of discussing the subcommittee stuff, it would be good. Yes. And I think Karen and I have our first planning board meeting. I think the night after next, is that correct Karen? They're not expecting me. I'm leaving for Germany. I'm not coming back until August 7th, unless something. Dyer happens and I have to come back earlier. Which me. So, but the reason for that is that both of us are, are beginning a commitment that is going to strain our capabilities to continue here. I know I've said, I'll stick around until we find somebody, but I'm going to be interested in. The efforts to find a replacement. Because I can see that this planning board is going to take some time. Getting, getting, getting sorted through things. So. I lost that every time we meet. I think. Understandable. I don't know about you then, but it was my impression that you and Karen both wanted to fully stay on the commission. So. No, I said, well, I, I'm my term. You did it. Yeah. And as an architect, I think you wanted. And I said that I would stay until I was replaced, but, but I am looking to advance the. I think my, I think I've got another year to run. Yeah. But I, I wasn't looking to run that whole year out. Particularly. Because we're looking to find someone to replace me. And I think that's going to be a good start now rather than later. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. No, I will say I've done staying on this topic for a second. I've, I was in contact with you, Bruce, and your colleague, Steve Schreiber and the woman from. Western mass. And you guys gave me a few names. Unfortunately, none of those folks. I thought they had the time commitment to offer. For this position. And then I did have. The director of Western mass post do like a blast email blast. To all of the members. And that was a few weeks ago and I still haven't heard anything back yet. So. Definitely trying. But yeah, I feel like. Personal recruitment always, always helps. So if you want to, if you want to start. Bothering any of your architect colleagues about it directly. We can. Yeah. But otherwise I'll keep, I'll keep asking around. And, and doing outreach as, as needed. Is it, Ben, is it, yeah, I'm assuming it's. Because a lot of architects who practice in Amherst don't live in Amherst. Yeah. So it has to be somebody who. There's a living Amherst. Yeah. Yeah. And if they. Yeah. And if they're practicing, they're probably going to be feel constrained because. Right. Well, I also think I'm thinking of architects though, who like work at the colleges and university. Yeah. My name is an architect that would be great. We actually ruled on her mini splits. But she's on sabbatical for a year or so. Oh. She's sorry. Sorry. Sorry. She's not interested anymore. Okay. Okay. Now that we've done now that we work for her. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, I'm thinking where I worked in at Amherst college. Architects who are licensed don't live in Amherst. Right. That I can think of. Tom Hayden. Does he. Aaron Hayden. Aaron. No, Tom. Tom Davis. Tom Davis. Yes. I do not believe he's licensed in Massachusetts. As an AIA. I believe he's licensed in Vermont, but not Massachusetts. But I could be. Mistaken. Has. So our. You see, this was my point earlier. I see. I, I, in the whole of the time that I've been on this commission, I haven't been. Yeah. Licensed. My license goes. The actual language is. The commission. One member from two nominees solicited from the chapter of the American Institute of Architects covering Amherst. So it doesn't necessarily say the architect needs to have an active license. It's just. Yes. That's what I thought. And that's why I would say Tom is quite. Yeah. Quite available from that point of view. Yeah. I know Tom. I mean, I could, I could ask him. I don't know if he lives in Amherst though. He does live in it. He lives in. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. He was. He's really, really busy. I mean, Oh, I know. I know. Yeah. I've worked with him on. Permitting a few projects. Yeah. And you mentioned, you mentioned Aaron Aaron is. Aaron's an engineer. Aaron Hayden. Yes. No, I was getting the two mixed up. I always do. Yeah. But I'll think of this. Anybody else that I can think of from my world. Okay. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And I think Peggy just joined us. Looks like it. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Okay. Am I unmuted now? You are. Yeah, we can hear you. My apologies for. Yeah. We just got back from a few weeks away and I'm just catching myself up. Sorry. No problem. Okay. And I have just a little question for the group about the underground wires. If you want me to go ahead and research whether their grants available and things. I know I brought it up before and it seemed people were interested, but I just. Wanted to get the official. Okay. And then I'll do some research and see what's up there. I would say why not. Okay. We'll do. I was one thing I would. I mean, this is, and this may be totally different from what happened in Amherst, but I know. Where. My dad lives outside of Boston. They did a big underground project. About. It was two, it was two years ago. Cause I was staying at their house on my mom. Anyway, I was staying at their house for a while and. It was really intense. Yeah. Yeah. So if you find out they funded it or anything. Yeah. Actually, yeah. The DP actually the DPW is right. Is right around the corner from where it was. But yeah, they buried. They buried a lot of, they buried a lot of. Yeah. So. Well, find out how they funded it and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it seems like this is working to underground wire. So. And I'm not sure if it would have been the town or the. Probably be the utilities. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. The utilities are going to do that sort of thing. And I think since you mass is doing a major building project. Almost in the local historical district, maybe. They can. Be involved a little bit when they do the new construction, having underground wiring. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. I'll look into it. I know there are grants available and there are. New ways of boring underground that are easier. But I don't know much else about it. Yeah. No, I think it's interesting. Nice. Where, where we, where I live on East pleasant street. We, we always have issues with wires because some of our, some of our wires are too low. So. Yeah. Like we had a delivery trunk once gets stuck. Pull down a wire. Just a regular size truck. But anyway. We've been told the same as you that we are kind of the, a conduit for a lot of you mass. Maybe they can help. Right. Three branches. Knock down the wires. Yeah. Okay. Good. I will. Keep investigating. And if you check out your dad's town. Yeah, I can give them a call and see who. Okay. So see if I can find anything out, but. So Peggy, I mean, Karen, did you want to talk about the, I guess the subcommittee or is it just we all need to get our stuff to you. I can talk a little bit about it since this is probably our, our only chance with open meeting law. We're trying to write, we're trying to sort of finalize. The project as far as we have it, the division of those houses along. North Pleasant street. And so I, for, I did forward to you, Ben. A little introduction of what we were doing. And then the five houses that I have in, in very short form added them. And I think that Greta and Susan are going to add. There's Jim. I asked him. And he's just going to give the folders to us. And so we can do the same thing. And then we have that. That you can look at Ben. And we'll have to discuss. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're going to, are we going to go any further? Or who do we sub? I mean, I thank you for this, sending the link to the preservation. Plan. Yeah. I don't know how this, how we could somehow fit this in. As part of that is, is this study supposed to, I know that the preservation plan said it was, I think, it said we're going to keep updating this. And every 10 years it should be reviewed. So that would be in 2025, but maybe we can somehow attach this as an ongoing study. To see if we can, the purpose, I think of this was not just to help facilitate more research, but to also see. Is it worth trying to expand our. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the preservation plan is a separate. Effort. I think it was first. Done in 2005. And then we're currently working with. The preservation plan is a separate. Effort. I think it was first. Done in 2005. And then we're currently working with. The Pioneer Valley planning commission. To update the preservation plan. And that the preservation plan is kind of a guiding document for. Both the historical commission, the local historic district commission. Town government town staff. To try to set priorities and goals for historic preservation. Like town, town wide really. So like one of the goals and strategies could be. You know, proposing to expand the Lincoln sunset district, but. The preservation plan is a much bigger effort than. I would say the. The effort to it encompasses the. The. This study about. Lincoln sunset. But I only sent you the plan car and just because it's on the agenda for today is to, you know, continue to discuss, you know, general priorities. For the next iteration of the preservation plan. And I don't know if it, I don't know if the study would be an addendum to the preservation plan. I think they would be a separate. Kind of efforts altogether. But I think they're, they're obviously related. So. Would it make sense. Before. Like we go too far to actually talk to somebody. In the state. To find out like the feasibility. Like, I guess you were talking about seeing like, like if we should go forward or what we should do. You know. Cause I was just like looking at what they did. The group did for the original Lincoln sunset. You know, it was. I mean, it was a huge submission. And I'm just thinking. Yeah. And they worked with a consultant for that. Okay. I didn't know that that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I think to. I guess I'm imagining that the study committee can kind of lay the groundwork for. So I guess skipping ahead a little bit. If you guys wanted to work with a consultant, obviously you need to find funding to hire. That consultant. And I think the best. Funding source for that is the community preservation act funding. CPA funding. I think this would qualify. And so there would be an application for CPA funding. I think in September. So relatively soon. And I think you could use the work you've done so far as like a justification for. You know, seeking out funding to hire a consultant. Is the way I, you know, I would kind of think about it. So. If that's. If that's what you guys wanted to do, I think that would be a good path forward. And then it's the. It's the CPA. There's a CPA commission that would. You know, I think that would be a good way to. Listen, intake your application and vote on. You know, whether to recommend it or not. And I don't know. I would, I would, I think I could work on getting some cost estimates for that work. I imagine it would be maybe 10, $15,000 somewhere around there. It's not a huge amount of buildings. So. I think that would be a good way to get. To get more justifications, better research, more justifications to. To make a case for expanding our district. Is that the goal? And is that why we're setting this. Yeah, I think that was the original impetus was to expand the Lincoln sunset district to encompass those homes along Kendrick Park. Then if that is the goal, then it seems to me pretty clear that we should, if we're going to pursue it, then we're going to have to see if we can get funding for a professional consultant to do that. And then if that gets declined, then we have a pretty, we have an answer of how difficult it's going to be. So, how do you see that? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead, Judy. I was just going to make a comment that. When I first met with Jennifer. About this. Her husband, you know, came in and since he had worked on the original Lincoln sunset district a lot. His thought was kind of. I remember him basically saying it was going to be an uphill battle to do this. So add that area. Yes. Yeah. Because of the commercial interest. Yes. Yeah. That's, and that's why I guess they took it out. You know, they sacrifice that to get the several hundred that were in the, but yeah. Which doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been included. But, but I just feel like we need to go into this knowing it's not. You know, that there's going to be, there may be challenges to it. But I don't know a lot about hiring a consultant. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the grand scheme of things. CPA applications, you know, there's usually around 1.5 to $2 million total given out. So a 10 or $15,000 ask for a consultant. Yeah. I don't think would be that heavily scrutinized. Especially because you're not actually proposing. The, the. They're not voting on actually expanding the district at that point. They're just voting on. Allocating. Studying. The study funds to study the idea of it. So. You know, there might be some town council members who look very closely at it and raise some questions and concerns, but I would expect it to be pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I also think of since, since the whole, you know, they've kind of done the playground of Kendra Park and stuff. There's even more of a like impetus to say it's a relevant, you know, stretch of properties. So. Yeah, exactly. I will say just to be transparent to the. The CPA funding is a, it's a very. Long application. Period. So. You apply in September ish, September, October. It's reviewed by like seven. No, not seven, probably five different committees. And then it's not. Actually the money, the funds don't actually become available until July 1st. So it would basically be a year from now that. With the new fiscal year a year from now that the. We could bring on a consultant. So it's a, it's just kind of frustrating because you have to plan so far in advance for these projects. But that's just the way the, the town's accounting department run, runs the grant. So as long as that's okay with everyone, I know it's, it'll, it'll kind of be a long time to wait, but. It does mean that the any application. It's typically nowadays. October 1st is the deadline used to be December 1st of two years or more ago. So. We should be thinking about that through September. The, I don't think the applications. They're typically not available until mid September. So we have to wait because the CPA C has to meet first and finalize the application, which is usually the same as the last year, but you know, sometimes it's got a slight change. I've, I've made in the past 10 years probably approach these, the CPA C five or six times. Mostly in relation to the North Amherst community farm. But I've, I've done it a lot. It amounts from 10,000 to 110,000. And everything that Ben said is correct. In my experience, it's, but it's, it's just a matter of appreciating that that's the process and, and then being ready for the various moments when you need to show up and make a case. And often the cases that I've made have had to be made very continuously. So I've developed a fairly aggressive attitude towards the CPA C. He's right. I don't think this one would necessarily be a contentious because it's pretty standard. Yeah. Pretty standard use of CPA C funds is what I meant by that. That sounds good. So anything, I guess, is there anything else that we wanted to like start reviewing as a group or as a commission? I know in addition to the underground. Wires. I think last time we were talking with Shannon Walsh from the Penny Valley Planning Commission, she had talked about one, one potential. One of the things that we wanted to look at. I think the goal or. Aspiration for this commission could be the development of design guidelines or design standards for the. Local historic district. And so I don't have anything right now, but maybe in the future, we could. Look at a few examples from other cities and towns of, and get a sense of just. How they're, how these guidelines are structured and what. Yeah. What inspiration they're taking to designs from. Yeah. Ben, would you have time to pull together. Two or three. Sample. Examples of what towns with local historic district commissions have done in this regard towns that say. That there's some similarity to ours. Which is to say. Yeah, for design guidelines. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could definitely pull that together. I mean, it's either either you or one of us. Or more than one of us, but someone should bring to the table. An example of what other commit other towns have done. And. And then we, we could look at those and perhaps develop some questions to collectively about. And then we could go ahead and answer those, which probably would involve. I mean, I'm gathered. I'm guessing this sort of questions would be. Type of questions that would be. Initially answered anyway, by calling. People like you in the various people like you been in the various towns. Right. And asking them. How long did this take? What sort of reception does this have? How many times has it been challenged? Has it been, you know, in court or those kind of things. Because we don't want to create a. A set of documents that are going to. Retuitously provoke. Legal engagement on the one hand. And neither do we want to do something that is so bland and mild as to be. Marginally only marginally if that useful. So we need to, we need to know how hard to push. And, and, and, and that sort of thing. And know that if we push beyond certain points, these will be the possible or likely consequences. I think. The town would like to know that they want to know whether we're creating something that's going to. Cost money to defend, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. I think I remember from years ago on the planning board, we always had an eye at least for. When we were provoked likely provoking. The. Letitious responses. We didn't want to provoke a litigious response. Without realizing that we would likely doing so. That was something that we certainly didn't want to do. And we needed to know enough to know that. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think it's kind of about striking that balance. And also, I think you were talking last time too about. Keeping the door open for some modern interpretations and modern design as well. That, that, that is compatible. That's true. And we don't know what compatible is, but it just means basically in my view, compatible means thoughtful, intelligent, conscious, progressive. Contemporary or more design. I mean, you know, it's, it's something that's going to be regarded highly in 50 years time. Very hard to imagine what that might be right now, of course, but our job I think is to try not to. Prevent that to represent that. The historic district is a, is a frozen in time forward. Thing and that there's no history from today onwards. That's, that's, as I keep saying, that's not a, not a, not an intelligent or appropriate. Well, appropriate is our word. So that's not appropriate. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, thanks Bruce. I'm also interested in. What Shannon mentioned from last week, just about getting the ball rolling on, on putting together some design guidelines. I'm just, I just quickly Googled, like North Hampton has a set of design guidelines. Gloucester, Harvard, Harwich, Wayland, there seems to be a number I could pull from. Yes. So yeah, I think that's a good idea to start looking at those. Okay. Well, you could put that up as a packet, you know, a week or two before the meeting, but having a chance to look at it in advance and. Totally. Yeah. That would be good. And then we can review it at the meeting, but having had a chance to look at it beforehand would be good too. Yeah. Definitely. Okay. And. And then I had on the agenda, just anything. Kind of other more administrative matters. Are there's anyone feeling like we need any more. Changes to the. Bylaw exclusions or, you know, I think last year what we did with the mini splits was really effective. And, but I haven't. So far this year, I haven't. I guess since then I don't think there's been too much more. That's, you know, been. See, you know, I don't think there's been too much more. I don't think there's been too much more to come for some, for applicants. I think the only thing that's cropped up that. Causes this perhaps some thought. Is. With windows and. What is appropriate when it comes to windows, which are now. Necessarily more energy efficient. I don't think there's been too much of a concern. I think we, I don't, I think we've. More or less figured out that. Well, I don't know what we figured out. I think we, we figured out that simulated divided lights are fine. I think we figured out that. The people putting in. Grills and so forth on one side or other of the glass. Seemed like it would be fine. But of course. There was virtually nothing to stop them from pulling them out. I mean, I don't know if it was later or someone pulling, because they're so easy to just to withdraw. So my sense is that we. We should. We should as a committee. Realize. I mean, Institutionally realize. That. Anything other than either. Simulated divided lights. That's means to say divisions between the glass. The double panes of glass. Which is. Fully restored original windows. With. Where they call the energy panels, which is extra layers of blazing on either the inside or the outside, outside the storm windows and the inside. So those are the only two ways where we could. Can be sure that the, the mountain. So the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. The walls of windows in historic houses will remain. Visually consistent with the. With the, with the, with the, with the historic. Creation product. And the grills. Snap in grills. Really. Nothing, not something that we can rely on. the look of these mountains, I think we have to recognize that we are committing the client, the applicant to considerable, some considerable additional expense. So I think that it would help for us to have an established realization and recognition of this as a body, which means we should have a policy written on this because our numbers change. So maybe we should put some, maybe I could do this, maybe I should just write down what I just said and submit it as a, I don't know whether it would lodge in now, but it does seem to be important that we don't kid ourselves about divided lights in windows. We could just say to ourselves, under the circumstances, we are comfortable with windows that match the proportion and a few other things, but that we really don't care about whether the windows are divided or appear to be divided or not. But maybe I should just ask the four, the three of you, not including Ben necessarily, ask the three of you, how do you feel about that? How do you feel about the idea that the mountains, that's what these little grills are called, the, we'll call them divided lights, I guess. How do you feel about the idea that we should be uncommitted to preserving that look in windows in the historic district? Rita? I feel, I have mixed feelings because I think those windows are so beautiful. When I'm looking at the House Amherst College just bought on Sunset, I love those windows, but I also agree that maybe it's not our job, maybe it's asking people too much because they're so expensive and with the new letting, unleaded rules for children, maybe it is too much, but maybe we could word it in such a way to say it's wonderful if you can preserve the old windows, but we're not going to demand it. Maybe I should find out what the premium is at the moment to get simulated divided lights over just grills. Also just over, you know, in just over, you know, like no, you know, no mountains, just a plain, just a plain window. Yes, that's what I mean, what the premium for simulated divided lights is versus just one big double or triple pane sheet of glass. But I thought you said snap, I thought you said snap ins. I think the snap ins are virtually, I mean, they have almost no cost. But they're not very attractive. No, but the other thing I think too is if we're going to do that, we need to compare, you know, the windows without the mountains as a good quality window because a lot of times people will say, all right, it's a replacement window, you know, it's not as good as, you know, a wood, you know. Yes, although a replacement window is replacing typically the sashes and keeps the frame. So there is a, there's an ability, if you like, in that because it's preserving the, which is I think what the Amos College President's House were intending to do wasn't it? They were, no, they were keeping the, they were, yes, right, they were keeping the, they were keeping the frames because they wanted to keep the. The stucco. The stucco. Right, but no, but anyway, I'm just saying it's just so I don't like the premium sometimes seems like it's more than it actually, more than it actually is, my feeling is just, I don't feel that it's always necessary. I mean, some of the houses in like the Lincoln Sunset District don't have them now. Yes. But you know, I think if that's what's there and what's historically appropriate to the house, it should be encouraged, but you know, we're not what I mean, we don't have any rights of enforcement really. So I think it's probably always better to try to work with a homeowner for a solution. Well, we, we have rights of enforcement to use your phrase, Judy, insofar as we're deciding whether something's appropriate or not. But after the fact, we did like, I'm just thinking of the thing that came up at the last meeting where Karin, I think you said Jennifer had brought to your attention a project that we had approved on McClellan, was it on McClellan Street? Yes. That the windows were going in and they weren't the windows that we had approved. That was was her thought. And that's what I'm talking, I mean, that's what I mean, after the fact, if we know that's different because I'm talking about when someone comes to us and wants to do certain things and we are asked to decide whether we think it's appropriate or not. Oh, no, no, I understand that. I understand that. No, no, I was talking more about this because then it's, I mean, I kind of feel like that's a real conundrum because what do you do? Well, if somebody gets a certificate of appropriateness from us having presented based, you know, because we always vote the approval of the certificate of appropriateness based on plans, dated, you know, dated plans or dated documents submitted with them. And if the, if the applicant deviates from those dated documents, then we, then they emotionally, they have to pull it out and put it in or they have to get us to say we're okay with the non-diminimous change. Yeah, technically, the bylaw does give the building commissioner power to enforce the bylaw. I think that there's, there can be fines associated with breaking the bylaw. And yeah, I mean, certainly you can't, you can't get a building permit without going to us first. So there are, there are mechanisms. In that house, I talked to the woman that lives there with their newborn baby now. And she said they just made a decision to buy everything second hand. So their kitchen is second hand and the windows are second hand. And in some ways, I commend her because it makes the house more affordable for a young family. So I have kind of mixed feelings. But anyway, I do know I get that, but I looked up the building permit. And it's, that was, that was, that was a huge project. So that is true. You know, I really, I think arguing that the cost of putting the right windows in was prohibitive is that's probably, I think you're probably right too, is a little inappropriate, is inappropriate, I would say, you know, it's yeah. And after the fact, I mean, I'm in terms of authorities power to enforce the the execution of what the applicant is applied for. I think of the houses built 30 or 40 years ago, I guess, illegally on Maple Street, North Maple Street, just opposite what is now the UMass horse farm. But there were five houses on the west side of North Maple Street from Warner Road North in the 1980s that were built by a developer who hadn't bothered to get all the necessary approvals. I won't go into the details except to say that four or five years later, they were pulled down. And they were, they were completed new houses on North Maple Street. Wow. And they are that now you drive past and it's a farm field. It had the details is what the developer violated are interesting and probably not worth going into right now. But the point is that that that is the the gold standard for somebody who was disrespectful of a regulatory authority in our local area. So compared to that, everything I think of when I'm thinking about whether somebody in Rob Mara's position should or could or might do what we're talking about, I think, well, it's a whole lot less draconian than bulldozing five houses. It is. Well, it is. Go ahead. In San Francisco, there was a historic house that passed everything. A new builder came in and they tore it down and built a new house and that historical commission made them tear the new house down and rebuild the old house. Exactly. That's even more extraordinary. It was a historical house. It was a beautiful house they tore down and made like a monster house there. But they had to tear it down and rebuild. So that's what that's what can happen. No, I was going to say, I mean, I went by the house and frankly, it looks like an old farmhouse. And I don't think the fact that it has all these windows is terrible anyway. I personally, I don't think it aesthetically would make the house look more historical because of that type of house it is. But it's just kind of the point of we have an applicant that we approved for something and then they just kind of decide to do something different. I think, I guess the term is disrespectful to just kind of go ahead and do this and not at least say to the town, we're doing this. And especially after the applicant was a little bit pushy about there. Yes, I don't quite know what we should do about that because I gathered that we weren't going to push them to, because I know you all have, not all of you, but some of you have walked past and we haven't heard that it's so egregious that we should do something. And I absolutely take your point that we don't want to encourage people to get the idea that we spend our time doing what we do and we don't really care about whatever happens afterwards. Right. And that's, I mean, because really, if that's, because it makes me think, why am I here? So, but on the other hand, we don't want to be petty either. So this is difficult, isn't it Ben? Do you have a sense of what a reasonable bureaucratic action would be under the circumstances that Judy describes? So I guess. Because we've also said it, if we don't do anything, we've actually set a precedent. Yes, the future, which is not a good thing. So I agree. Yeah, I mean, there's been instances where commission members have brought to my attention that someone in the neighborhood was like making changes without a building permit or without coming to the commission. I've, I've sent letters before, you know, letting someone know, like, just so you know, you're in the local historic district, like not, not calling out in particular what they did or just saying, you should come to the, you should, you need to file for a building permit and have this project reviewed by the commission and then sent them like our pamphlet that outlines, like why, why we have a district and and so I mean that that's a different instance because that's someone who maybe was unaware of that they were in a local historic district. This is, this is very different from that. Yeah, but in this case, I think because it sounds like no one, I think if it was, if it was an egregious change to like, you know, adding an, you know, a whole new, you know, addition that they didn't talk about or different configuration of doors or, you know, the deck was like much bigger than they said it was, I think there would be grounds for like a more like an actual enforcement order. In this case, because it was just slightly different windows then they said they were going to install, you know, I think we could write them a letter and just say, you know, let them know in the future. You know, you need to make sure that you need to make sure that the designs you present to the LHD match what you actually follow through with you should have more complete drawings when you come to the commission. I mean, I think we tried to make that clear during and after the fact, but I don't feel a need to issue any sort of enforcement or order or fine or and I'm personally, I'm not worried about this precedent setting. I know I don't think I'm not, I guess I'm just not that worried about that. When I talked to the woman whose name I can't remember, she was kind of happy. She said, well, we found some secondhand windows that fit the, that fit what we fit the drawings or fit. I mean, she was, I thought she, in her mind, they were the same. And so I could, I agree with you that I wouldn't want to do anything. I think their hearts are in the right place and they, in their own sense, felt that they were coming pretty close to what they had told us. Yeah, right, like it doesn't seem like they were trying to, you know, pull a fast one. No, they were just like, and we found a whole kitchen, too, some company that takes kitchens out of houses. Yeah, they really should have, they really should have gotten in touch with us when they found us. I agree, and maybe that sounds like a good halfway point. Well, I think Judy and I feel, I'll speak for myself, I would speak for both of us, but the, but it was certainly true that when they came to us, they came with very insubstantial drawings, very confusing drawings that they hadn't been able to spend money doing. They were sloppy and perfunctory in their approach to us in the first instance, so it didn't create a good taste in my mouth anyway. But, Greeter, I'll take your point, because you've spoken to them and... Community brunch yesterday, and they seemed like they were doing it yourself first, so that's what the woman was saying, oh, we're so excited, we found these secondhand windows that seem, they're gonna, anyway, that was just my take, is that... Okay, well, I'll go back to my 25-year-old self when I would have done something there. Yes, Karen. You know that their whole profession is sustainability, environmental engineering, Emily, the woman is a professor of environmental engineering, so I think their whole emphasis on, it was living in town, putting in geothermal, reusing things and doing it in a way that they can afford, and then they had this baby coming, so their mind was on things that we think are good and want to encourage. I agree it would be nice in some ways to just mention, you know, we're proud of you for doing what you're doing, but this whole thing is to kind of preserve the aesthetic feeling, which I'm sure they agree with, just mention that it would be nice if they had worked with us. Well, yeah, and I totally agree, that's fabulous, I mean, that's one of the reasons I live near town too, you know, but that they should have just, I mean, I would have been happy if they presented that. I'm not sure why they didn't, but I have a feeling it had to do with the fact that too much was happening, the new baby was being born, they had to get into the house, you know, there was just too many things happening at once. Well, also from a design standpoint, I think part of it too was that, you know, I didn't realize how big of a project that was until I looked it up. I'm surprised they weren't required, you know, that they did not have an architect, you know, and or an engineer. Yeah, it was interesting too that one of the building inspectors here were commenting that it's, he was acting as a general contractor too, which is pretty rare for a project that sides at the homeowners, the general contractor. So it was a lot. Yeah, and I think if there had been more professionals involved, it wouldn't, yeah, it wouldn't have come to this. So it kind of begs the question, you know, he's taking all this work on for himself, but as taking on his work for himself, he's creating more work for the town in certain ways, which may or may not be appropriate, you know. So, yeah, I guess that's true, but if he's an isolated instance, and I guess he is, it's probably something we can, I mean, I don't think, I don't think we need to like call anybody, you know, it's not, it's not that big of a deal like we've talked about, but it's just nice if people present what they're actually going to do. Exactly. Follow through, and if they're not going to do it, then just say so or something. Yeah, I will say too, just in terms of like the impact of this commission, a lot of projects before they even get to being reviewed, they all have a conversation with the architect, with the property owner, and let them know like this is what the local historic district will comment on, this is what they're going to review. And so before there's ever even a public hearing, they're aware that they're kind of going to step up their design game and bring in a, you know, just make sure that the work is compatible with the district and that it's historically appropriate. So I think there's just the very existence of the local historic district, even if sometimes you guys feel like you're just kind of, oh, this looks good, sure. Like, why not? Like it, before it gets to that point, the design is already that advanced and that, you know, appropriate, if you will, because the district exists and because the commission will be reviewing those projects. So I guess, I guess I just wanted to mention that as well. Yeah, that happened with the, with the big condo, the condo or the apartment condos, whatever they're going to be on the Sunset Fearing Project, where like two months before the first public hearing, they were, you know, already thinking, taking pictures of houses in the district and making sure the design was appropriate with the incompatible with surrounding houses. So that is, that's nice to hear. Yeah, yeah, but um. Well, are we done at this point? I could, I've got another Zoom meeting shortly. So I could have a shower since I'm pretty grubby. You couldn't tell. Judy, Judy, do you want, are we just gonna let this go or should somebody draft a little letter saying, you know, we congratulate you on using your system a bit, but it would have been nice for you to come back because you didn't do what you said and or are we gonna just let it go? Um, I guess I would say I'm open to your thoughts. My feeling is let it go. I don't, I don't really see what we would get. And yeah, I kind of agree. And also, you know, and if, if like, if this guy comes back in the future, then we kind of kept the leverage to say, look, you yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, no, I don't, I wouldn't, well, I don't want to make a big, I don't want to make a huge case about it. It's just more of a, you know, I guess a frustration that no, and as you say, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't rise to the level of egregiousness as other things, but it's still something that shouldn't have happened. Yeah. Um, yeah. Does anyone else have any thoughts about that? I just, I was just going to change the topic slightly. Does anybody else want to write, does anybody think we should say something or? Okay, good. Okay, yeah, that sounds good. I was just going to say before everyone goes, I just want to pick our next meeting date just so we have something on the calendar. I know August can sometimes be a busy time for people. And I'm actually taking two weeks off kind of towards the end of August. So I was going to maybe propose August 8th as a Monday for our next meeting. Sure. I think I don't come back from Germany till August 8th. It would be nice if we did it on maybe the 9th. Could we do a Tuesday exception? Um, yeah, really anytime that week works for me. Same with me. Same with me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm okay. Okay. Peggy, are you still with us? Jesus, I don't know. Yeah, no, I've been, I've been listening to the whole. Okay. Yeah, that works, works for me that anytime that week. Okay. The later that week doesn't work for me, but. So August 9th, is that where we're thinking? Does that work for everybody? Yep. For me. Okay. Hey, Clark. Okay. My apologies for being late. It's the most track of time. Summer time. Yes. Car, are you going to Germany tomorrow? No, on the 17th. Oh, okay. Yeah. Safe travels. Thank you. Okay, we'll set. I think so. So we need to close the meeting. Okay. Move to adjourn. Both was by clicking the red button. Okay. Everyone in favor. Sounds good. All right. We'll talk to everyone in a month. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.