 What's up everybody on the mangoos? You are awesome And we are going to sit down today and talk about things that overprime can improve on I think we both had quite a bit of fun with the game and we both enjoyed it a lot But there were things there were some problems with the game that I think that they need to fix before they go into early Access and back by popular demand. It is the Viking Jedi You guys loved him on out for the minions and we're gonna be working together quite a bit So, uh, Jedi just go ahead and introduce yourself a bit man. Yeah, sure. So, uh, yep again I am the Viking Jedi Me and man goose became mutual friends through our buddy jelly knees So who you guys all should be familiar with and yeah, I've been enjoying getting to hang out and play some games together and Found a lot more, um, you know mutual connections, then I think we anticipated so I know but it's been a blast Yeah, really enjoyed the game. It's it's been it's been a lot of fun Well, let's get right into it Now personally, I think their biggest problem their biggest failing throughout the entire Close beta test was the item system. They're just weren't enough items and there weren't enough item types like It really made it and that fed into a lot of the other problems What do you think about the item system and the with a lack of items really? Yeah, I mean I I don't let's see So I do think the items the actual items they had in the game and themselves and we've talked about this before I think those were good the items themselves. I think we're built. Well, I think the scaling on the items were pretty decent But yeah, the overall like depth of items was was really a problem I felt like that there was a lot of like a gaps that I feel like other items that were in there Were way more niche than they needed to be and then like there was very few for example like armor penetration items and The descriptions that they gave for the items and how they penetrate the armor and all that stuff wasn't very clear So you didn't know if I build this item What is it exactly doing to help me carve through some of these tanks if they you know and so forth? So I think that the lack of clarity sometimes on what the items did was was a big Failing I guess on their part, especially considering how important items are in any MOBA, but let alone this one Right I think a lot of that could be attributed to them being a Korean company But that isn't an excuse. They're a major company net marble is a billion dollar company It's the largest mobile game company in Korea. They should have People that can take care of that stuff that can that can do the interpretations and write these item descriptions If they want to break into the Western market They're gonna need to do that and they need to they need to clear up a lot of that kind of stuff You see the same thing and a lot of their ability descriptions and everything it wasn't as bad this time like This closed beta test a lot of the descriptions were a lot were much better than the first beta test like the first beta test they had rampage referring to Rampage as she and her and stuff like rampages that a girl rampage as a girl She'd be topless just running around Yeah, and some of the Bora outfits, I'd love to see rampage in those No, I agree with you I think there might be some things that are lost in translation right and luckily for them, right? They do have the time to to you know get some of those things sorted out But of course when you're trying to you know garner an audience like you said here in the West and trying to get People bought into your product, you know, you're not the only one competing for eyes You know and you have a chance and they got a lot of good numbers Maybe more than they were expecting this time going around but I'm really looking forward to seeing them put out something Kind of addressing those things especially like some of the stuff I think we're gonna go over but you know talk about the items and the fact that you know Maybe some of them were lacking in and what what their plans are for those things But also I hope that they've got together a PR team that is maybe based here in the West that is going to be communicating some of those issues and Concerns that I think the player base that is here brought up or an EU that brought up right And I think the the lack of items also fed into another Major problem that the community had a lot of people felt that it was incredibly unbalanced I think that it was unbalanced like it wasn't balanced It wasn't the balance wasn't great, but I think it would have been a lot better if we could have built items That could counter certain builds like there was no Healing negation it's often called blight or trauma in other games. There was none of that you couldn't You you couldn't negate healing so when Oolog or Narbash Whatever you want to call him was introduced into the game his healing was incredibly strong and incredibly powerful And you couldn't do anything about it because there was no item there to assist with that Same with Muriel Muriel was incredibly Incredibly strong in the game because there was no shield buster item You often see that in MOBAs is some sort of item that specifically deals extra damage to shields and that just made Muriel just overpowered Yeah, I know and I agree. I think Items in most MOBAs, but in a lot of games in general they need to fit exactly what you're describing they need to come from a place where It maybe might hit in the character that I picked it doesn't deal well with this character But I should be able to opt into finding ways to deal with that character, right that so Exactly what you're mentioning So if they have a lot of tanks, I should be able to buy items that helps me deal with tanks Is it going to reduce my damage? Maybe in the quote-unquote meta optimum build probably But I have a better chance of you know winning against that matchup if I feel like that's what it's I think anytime you can give characters or I'm sorry players The onus over their own character to feel like they can make choices that are meaningful and impactful in the game And whether good or bad, maybe they make the wrong choice if I'm itemizing with like, you know A high crit high damage build that does nothing against tanks They can itemize against me now and now my damage as a carry Means nothing to to helping me win the game Whereas if I can buy, you know getting armor shredding or anything like that Now they have to try and counter play around me being able to Decimate their frontline and they have to rearrange it and so I feel like um And this is going to lead into what I think was the biggest thing But I think it starts to change the game from a place of where it's like a chest match into a checker's match And I think items play a huge role in reducing the Impact that I think smart players or people who are trying to keep themselves ahead of the curve Um, they just fail to be able to do so when items don't Give them that that ability to make meaningful choices in game Around what the enemy picked Right 100% agreed. So on that topic, what did you think was the the biggest problem with overprime? So, yeah, my I think it was most apparent In the tournament that you guys uh got to be part of I think that it was really obvious that there is a big distinction between Way that I think the devs anticipated the game to be played and the way that the game was actually played Yeah, um the When when I think of like a MOBA game, I think of you know The the strategy that comes with MOBA is five players or six players You know working together to accomplish a goal to be able to take down the enemy um, and I feel like In overprime You had people who were used to the old guard the old way of doing it Whether they're you know former paragon players or fault players or you know, maybe coming from different MOBAs They have a general idea of of what it is that you're supposed to do to win a MOBA game Overprime doesn't function like those other games. It has some of the same mechanics But like there's no way pushing an overprime at least not yet a current version of overprime does not have a good wave system So managing waves doesn't really equate to anything. Um neutral objectives They're you know, very very strong early become less strong less relevant late So if you pick a scaling champion and they play a game where they're going after neutral objectives Your scaling means nothing, you know So if you're trying to stack your health by landing cues on um, oh my gosh, I'm bliking on his name Severog Demorius Yeah, Severog Demorius, but you're trying if you pick him because you want to scale and become this huge healthy You know unstoppable force of you know missed demon thing, whatever he is You know that won't happen if the nexus is falling at eight or nine minutes That that's or the you know, that that's just not you're not going to be relevant What you basically become a glorified minion that has an ult that can knock them back a little bit Um, and and I think that was as the games started to come along I saw more and more teams Figuring out that that's how the game works is that you can Function very early take advantage of very early. I mean our our group right our five man That's what we would do and we would stomp teams who didn't know didn't have a strategy to deal with us I mean, we were ending games in under 10 minutes consistently. 9 20 was our record. I looked at I looked at it today Yeah, it's it's ridiculous. Like I feel like I mean, I I'm all for a game going quicker Like I so I you know, I'm a um a League of Legends player most times It sucks when I have like, you know, like maybe time for a game or two and then one game ends up taking an hour That's not that's not fun. I I feel like that's that just wears you out You're exhausted afterwards. You don't want to play anymore. You might be tilted Even if you win, you're still not exactly stoked on the way the whole game went So I get not wanting to have you know, huge long games But I'm I'm of a fan of where you get a chance to Again play chess over checkers, you know, I don't want it to be where you know, there's no strategy It's just throw your head at this neutral objective Hope that the other team is lacking or if you need to win the team fight Then you win the next team fight and now the game's over So I think that to me from a gameplay from a big picture They have a real problem and I think they need to address it They need to figure out what they want their identity to be in this space Um, and if that's what they want then what's the point of having scaling champions? What's the point in having items that don't really come online or the gold at this point where you can't get a full build Until you're at 30 to 40 minutes in the game So like they just wouldn't need to change their whole approach to Of I guess finalizing what their their concept is because otherwise it just feels disconnected And I think a lot of players were feeling that people in your last video were mentioning that that they just felt like The game felt more like a team deathmatch You know rather than a MOBA that they're used to And I do think that there's space for both like to feel a little bit faster because we I think we talked about that we liked that the pacing was a little bit higher We liked that you felt like you could you know make some really cool moves and Outplays and some of the kits were really neatly designed that you know, they changed from the old paragon days And so there's a lot going on that's good But that part right there the overall gameplay The the thing that really supposed to set you apart is inconsistent and the player base doesn't know what to do with it You need to find a way to address that right away. I think that's to me their biggest issue and I think um before they patched in You know halfway through they patched The orb prime the prime guardian that spawns to give it more help I think before that patch the game was far more fun and competitive after that it became Who can take orb prime the fastest because if you take it when it spawns There's no possible way that an enemy team can defeat that thing. I don't think that was intended at all Yeah, and it might not have been right and and also again they I guess like again players are going to do things. They're always going to find ways to break your game Yeah, that's what beta tests are for right exactly. And so that's I mean Obviously, we're talking about it with this very small sample size, you know, but I am hopeful right again They took the guy tournament had to have been Um, you know monumental data. They got they got, you know povs They got like, you know actual Concrete evidence of what a quote-unquote competitive environments with teams that are organized not just like, you know Pick up games. That's what most of the beta was was pick up right by people, right? Um, and so you want to see what your competitive looks like, but you also you want to address What is it like for my single players? What is it like for my my solo queue guys to queue in and get matched up against a five stack? Who knows what they're doing versus and and what's that guys out playing going to be like What's his experience going to be like? And so again, I'm really looking forward to in the next few months as they kind of go through all the Data and and stuff. I want to see a pr release talking exactly about some of the stuff that I think we're bringing up today It's like, okay, so we saw these game times were wildly inconsistent We had games ending in eight minutes and we had games ending in an hour and 20 minutes like What where's the where's again? Where's our identity as overprime? What is it that we want to do and where do we want to fit in this space? And I feel like any competitive Environment needs to have that like you need it to especially again, they're not the only ones in the space We know the other competitors that are out there and some of them are way farther ahead And some of them are getting to watch what overprime does and say We need to make adjustments now before our next beta test so we can capitalize on what they failed Um and because there might not be enough mouths for all these these companies, you know I don't know too many players who are gonna Swap back and forth between these big companies They're gonna probably pick one and hope that it's the best one And and that's one thing that I really like that overprime has been doing is I've said this a couple times now These paragon remake companies need to use the paragon fan base as kindling for the fire not Not the fuel that's going to feed that fire in the long run They need to use it to get the visibility and get up there But then they need to start getting pulling players from smite legal legends or just people have never played a moba before They're just interested in third person games That's what they need to do overprime is about the only one that's made like a very new very different game The other two games fault and predecessor are kind of just going to pull in The paragon audience, right? And they're they're doing a good job of it and a paragon was a great game. Maybe that Formula will be successful without epic You know sticking their noses into the into it and messing it up. However I think overprime has a good thing going with with all the changes that they've made It kind of rewinding back a little bit We're talking about the the different strategies like Overprime people were playing it like it was paragon and it's like like I just said it's not paragon like it was not It's almost unfair to call it a paragon remake even though they're using all those heroes and assets and everything But I think I thought I felt that it played more like heroes of the storm or gigantic than Paragon or legal legends or something it was it wasn't as much about Winning your lane or pushing towers or anything. It was more about paying attention to Camp timers and then reacting accordingly because that's what you do and here's the storm. You're like, okay There's going to be this objective spawn. I'm going to go take this camp now So it's pushing their lane and putting pressure on their lane while we take this objective And that's kind of how We played Overprime was whenever the prime spirit guardian was about to appear That's when we would come gank duo lane force them out and then go Take that prime spirit Which um, I think the prime spirit also kind of is involved a little bit in the balanced discussion But we'll come back around to that But the the the big difference is that you know Middle of the middle of the closed beta test they buff that or prime guardian So unlike here's the storm you take that one objective you win You know like here's the storm. You got to take a couple of objectives to win No, you just had to employ your strategy one time and win in overprime, which was A huge problem a huge problem I I almost wonder with the the buff that they felt like you know The games were going too long and they did that's not what they wanted And they knew people weren't like I my guess is this that they they they did a quick look at the numbers The average prime wasn't being taken until X time in game. Let's say like I don't know maybe 10 15 minutes into the game Maybe even longer upwards of much longer. I think yeah, right? so they they could tell that the teams weren't giving it a priority and I know for us like, you know, great We're all a bunch of over the top nerds and I mean me and jelly spent like a few hours talking about strategies and all kinds of stuff Trying to figure out like how we wanted to approach this because we just love that style of playing the game We love game theory and I think our lot of your audience also loves game theory So, um, we took that to the to the next level. We read the patch notes. We were like, okay That's a huge buff. We need to get we need to prioritize Trying to get that bad boy right on spawn as best as we can I mean for the most part once after the patch came through on our five sack We rarely rarely took the prime after 10 minutes And it was very rare that we had a team on the opposite side that was Contesting us for that prime, you know, give you even giving us a hard time about it Um, and again, I think that was really just the devs not realizing that that would be the other side of it It was that the savvy teams, you know The people who were paying attention the people who want to be maybe in the more competitive space or you know Take things to the next level are going to see something like that and go like that's massive How can I take advantage of it? And sure average game times probably went way down Like way down. Um, and again, I'm hopeful that the the data points speak to that They're gonna look at it go like, okay, we don't want eight minute games We don't want people queuing in and because let's be honest The worst part about any MOBA is the first probably 10 minutes of the game Do you know why because you're spending most of your time hitting minions and occasionally trading with your laner and blah, blah, blah That's like the boring part. You know, you want to get to the fun part You want to get to the team fights you want to get to that But you know where you get to show your skill versus the other guys the skill and um You're not typically gonna get that in under 10 minutes When a game is ending because a big huge Raid monster is you know busting through your your door. So Um, yeah, I agree that that's probably the the biggest thing that they'll hopefully have Adjustments for but I just think that it didn't expect it would be as aggressive as some of us Right to get well, I mean they they give it that huge health increase And I think they give it a damage increase too The problem was is people were taking it before they were taking it so late into the game That it was just getting melted by the enemy team before it could do anything at all Like it was it went from being not effective at all to Overly effective, right? And if it's an easy fix just have the prime scale minute by minute Sure, you know, you take it at eight minutes. It's got this much health and this much power You know, yeah pretty easy fix. I think and that's probably what they'll employ. I'm almost certain that that's what they'll do I mean, I would take a guess that they would I mean, um, our buddy convay Who does a lot of like coding and stuff like that he talked about that and um from his perspective He said it's probably one of the easier things that they can implement is a scaling aspect And speaking of scaling, I'd like to see that same thing applied to minions Um, I think the minions scaling uh, and we I don't want to mean to deviate too much But that was another one of the big issues that I felt like was that early on Minions will 100 to zero you if you get caught in a wave on unexpectedly Like at least for me as an ad carry main, I was just Surprised by how much damage I would take from for minions now granted as the game went on I eventually outscaled them and I was just you know, it didn't matter But the minions themselves never started from what I would consider a decent scaling and that I think has a huge issue with the overall gameplay aspect again when we're talking about playing chess versus checkers You want your minions to feel Like reliable as the game goes on So if they fix the prime issue, right, which we think is both an easy fix But if they fix the prime issue the next thing that I would want them to address is the minions They need to fix the minions pathing. They need to fix the minions health. They need to fix the minions damage Um, they need they need their minions to feel smart and and and active on the map Or they need to come out and say that's not a priority on our game We want things to be more like a heroes of the storm type game where yes, you need minions to farm and get xp Well, okay, if that's the case make it global farm and make it global xp like they did in heroes of the storm They made it a priority that that wasn't that wasn't what they wanted They wanted people to be team fighting. They wanted everybody as close to an equal footing as possible. Okay, fine. That's what you want That's fine. Here's the storm Was a good game. I mean it failed to meet expectations I think for like a blizzard product, but it was still a good game It's definitely a cool idea for a moba Um and and again if that's where overprivance wanting to lean more towards is not so much like This over-the-top like stratagem game where you have to be managing waves and you know counting your cs And you know, are you doing this amount this amount like if they don't want that that's fine. That's okay I'm okay with a chill moba style game Um, but just be open about that. That's what you want And so and make adjustments that match that and make sure that the players are are aware of it Because otherwise I think we end up with what you talked about where you have one idea of like, you know The old school paragon players wanting to come in play over priming being basically Bombarded with this over-the-top team deathmatch style gameplay And new players who have only maybe watched a couple youtube videos and have no idea what's going on And then they're getting their nexus cracked at even it's like that's also not a good feel so Uh I'm kind of with you on the minions, but I want the minions to start just as strong as they are now But I want them to increase in power as as as time goes by because I liked having Being able to play around the minions. I think that opens up a lot of strategy Um, there something I would do a lot is clear out the range minions because the melee minions can't reach you if you're weaving around You know So if you clear out the enemies range minions that they don't clear out yours, then you have an advantage I thought that was fun, but the minions just didn't do anything the towers Again, it's like here's the storm the minions were there to for you to get gold And get enough xp to get your ultimate once you have your ultimate It's rotate time that like that's how here's the storm works You stay in lane everybody gets their their stuff until they get their ultimate And then it's time to roam together as a team and take objectives and that's exactly how over prime works and I don't know how many times I said it or the the match to is like The minions don't matter like people like oh defend left lane defend left. It's like that that Minion wave is not going to do shit. Just leave it No, I guess not going to push that inhibitor by itself um And like people just dying for towers. It's like don't die for a tower. The tower is not that important right The towers are usually important because that get that's what gets your minions If you take that tower out you can get this minion wave pushing into their inhibitor Didn't matter didn't matter at over prime. It was more about the team fights than the objectives People just couldn't get it through their through their heads on that but I do think the minions it would be a more interesting game If the minions were more effective and you could employ strategies that involved You know setting a push and having that push do something for you and distracting the enemy team away while you're doing something else Like force people to have to back to defend those lanes because right now People were only backing to defend lanes Because that's what they thought they were supposed to do in a moba Right not because they had to And I agree with that. I mean I know for us once we You know again in our five stack once we had that that idea We only knew we needed one tower, especially once the buff had came through we only need one tower and that was the The duo lane tower and the reason I need the duo lane towers because eventually needed to do the the prime dunk And it's easier to do you don't technically need the lane you can go through the jungler But if we have the lane down and makes it way easier for you to be able to approach the dunk Spot with a little bit more strategy, right? That was only that was really the only one Pre taking the prime It was just like get as much golden experience as you can so that way we're at least as strong as possible And let's go and kill the prime and try and end the game Um, and that was it like everything else about the game became, you know, almost many people didn't matter At all, uh, and I do think that that's a problem But I actually so this kind of I guess leans me to a question for you is Where do you want over prime to fit in your Games, I guess like what what are you wanting over prime to be like are you uh in the camp that you want it to be a Full-on paragon successor or do you want it to be its own thing? And if it is its own thing, what are you hoping at the end result when let's say All the betas all the alphas all the testing is all this stuff is done and they're releasing a game What is it that mangoes will be like this is the game I wanted? well It's not exactly an easy answer What I would say is I want each company each paragon remake To pick a route and stick with it to stick with their vision for what they want their game to be If over prime wants to be a more of a heroes of the storm brawler team brawler With mobile elements Then go full force into that like commit to that and be that It be the best at that that you can be if you're the best at that then you can be then I'll play that game If predator predecessor seems to be going more along the route of just Straight up traditional Paragon if they can be the best at being the most traditional paragon Then that's one of them to play like I I'll play as many of them as I can like at fault. They're trying to be like Like a more advanced version of paragon like if they're kind of trying to be the dota of Of the third person mobas and if they can do that and if they can make it fun then then awesome I won't have time to play everything but I will say that I enjoyed the over prime cbt enough that I I'm pretty sure I would play it even if it meant just like a couple of games a day Like I still play here's the storm But I'll play like one or two games a day and move on like I would still play over prime just a couple days in the game A couple games a day and then you know move over to predecessor Or if fault becomes really good then move over to fault whatever but I just want them to pick a route and stick with it I like that answer Yeah, I mean, I'm right there with you essentially answering my own question. I think that you know, yeah identity is huge I know for me over prime of the ones that I played so I didn't get to play predecessor But I did play a decent amount of fault and I did play way back in the day on playstation I played a lot of paragon um over prime In this test was so much fun, especially before the buffs like um, I not that the buffs I think were a You know a bad marker, but it definitely changed the way that we were playing the game Um, and but just leading up into that change I was just having a blast. I I just really I don't know what it was about it But just something clicked a little bit more to where I'm at in my game I'm a little bit of an older guy, you know, we both are you know I don't have I don't have the insane amount of time that it takes to You know dedicate to crazy amounts of hours and you know to become I'm not looking to go pro in one of these games You know what I mean? Um, I want to have fun. I want to be able to log in with my friends I want to be able to play and I want to and over prime Did that for me like there was very few times where um because we all knew that it was only for a short time So we all kind of wanted to play it But I didn't feel obligated to play just because it was only for a short time like I wanted to log in every day I couldn't wait for like jelly to get off of work so we could all log in and like is mangoes coming in Oh now he's playing with his other team. Oh You know like that kind of stuff like we were all really excited to get our chance to play a little bit more And try new things and do stuff and um, and I don't know if it's just because it was The new version of it or what but I just had fun and And that's too your your your mentioning is that it's I want to have fun with the game And but I want to know what the game is expected to be for fun Like again, if it's a pair full on paragon successor And you liked that and that's what you want for fun Then then you should pick one of the ones it's way more of a paragon successor And if you're looking for more of like, you know a little bit more silly or fast-paced, um, you know That's like going between uh, you know apex and you know call of duty or whatever Like you can have multiple versions of a of a game style work very well You just have to make sure that your audience is aware of what it is that you're you're going into and um And that's what i'm hoping to see again from over prime or any of these companies is to Make an identity Challenge the the current king of these third person moas, which is smite, which by the way, I played a lot of smite I don't think smites all that good I think this might just the only one in the market that that captured an audience and and does well Now is smite a terrible game? No, no, no don't give me wrong. Don't come after me smite guys I think smite's a fine game But I don't think that they captured the essence that we all fell in love with the first time we played paragon I think smite just happened to be the only one that maintained and they had a really good gimmick going from right Getting to play gods is always cool And they captured that environment and they made it good and they have a bunch of different modes and all that stuff And the skins look pretty decent and the voice lines are good. Um, so smite's not a bad game But I don't think that smite really captured what I want And a third person moba, you know when I think of like playing that I wanted something more like what paragon kind of started Um, and we can I don't want to go down too deep on what failed paragon I think I mean there's a lot of different, you know ideas, you know, so whether it's uh epic games or paragon just failing To get you in and of itself. Yeah, no kidding. Um, but yeah, so I agree with you identity is the biggest thing For these guys and I really liked at least the idea of the identity of over prime. Um, if it's uh, you know Hots version of, you know, a third person moba. That's fine. I just want to know what it is that I'm getting myself into Uh, you know smite teamed up with slipknot. They're gonna have slipknot skins and smite I I saw that I think in newer discord and um, I was like, wait, who does that help more? I'm trying to figure it out. Like is is somebody on the slipknot team like a fan of That has to be that Yeah, but you know what those smite does all kinds of stuff. They did uh, they they did Ruby they did ninja turtles. They did all kind. Yeah, all kinds of shit, man Bob Ross that a bob ross skin for some Did you know about the bob ross one? Uh, they oh, they did the last airbender guys, right? They so they did yeah, they they've done a lot. They're like, um Freakin fortnight of of getting people to join in on their team. I know right. It's crazy. Uh, Then you guys so leave then you got so leave teaming up with metaverse entertainment to bring Digital instagram models into their game, which is weird as all hell I don't know who they're appealing to for that one. I I don't know man But uh, well, let's move on to another problem and um, this is probably the biggest one that the community probably talked about which which was balance And I think that there was a lot of balance issues, but I think a lot of them I think people got wrong like so many people I saw out there saying revenant was overpowered I didn't think revenant was overpowered at all me neither. No like There were items to counter revenant. You had the stasis item Which revenant would ult me. I would stasis. He would waste his entire kit on An inanimate object and then I would kill him and it just seemed to me That in every game It was it wasn't the revenants that were popping off It would end up being the scud or the twin blast or In a really long game sparrow, but it had to be a very long game for sparrow to really kind of pop off But I mean revenant he was certainly powerful in the right hands and at at at the right time, but I didn't think he was Overpowered at all and I think that's again people just not Not enough items to counter stuff like that and people not using the items that were there In order to counter him uh giddy, and I think was way overpowered Um, there was definitely some over overpowered stuff in the game that people just seemed to not notice like steels shield The one that he throws down in the lane that blocks projectiles Yeah, and slows you that thing was overpowered as all fuck and it and for it for the wrong reasons In over prime and this is another problem. They need to address Projectiles um, whether it's projectile or hitscan whatever the origin is behind your hero The origin of that projectile is behind your hero So you could be standing in front of steels shield and still have still have your projectiles blocked um Back in wait way back before they even got picked up by net marble That was a big problem I have with the game is you can actually see the projectiles come Behind go through your hero and coming through your like shoulder or whatever. Yeah, and then hit your target But yeah, that's that steel shield was overpowered for all the wrong reasons I got a giddy in overpowered um Because his ultimate if you got sucked into the center of it even ranged heroes You couldn't aim directly upwards to hit him. Yep like Either change giddy's ultimate somehow or Make it to where you can look straight up I don't I guess there might be a problem with being able to just loop right on over if you Aim straight up. I I have no idea I well, I definitely agree with you. Um, it's a it's a mixed bag for me. Um, that The things that were overpowered uh, that from the community I sometimes questioned whether that was just because you didn't know how to counteract them Like you don't know the outplay potential versus the actual overpoweredness And or things that weren't like unintentionally strong. Um, I think the the shield from scott, for example Was unintentionally strong like I don't think that that's what the game is designed to necessarily do But there were moments where I feel I feel like in the hands of certain individuals Some champions just felt Insanely strong and hard to play against and there was no almost no outplay for you Whereas other ones again revenant, I don't think he was that strong I think that he has potential to be strong But the player that is playing as the revenant really needs to understand and pick their targets. Well I think once the game goes towards a team fight, they're not nearly as strong as they should be There's two items that you can buy that don't hurt your kit very well to basically get rid of his his ultimate on you Um, I think in the solo queue environment revenant probably was popping up and just doing insane amounts of because Basically, he just was uh in the right hands He could become ungainable, right? If you get because you'll just turn the lights off on one person and make it to where it's a 1v1 And hopefully he's far enough ahead and he wins, right? Um, and I just Outside of that though, he has no ski capability He has he has no knockbacks. He has no he has no cc He has a slow on his e and um everything else is like, you know his the missiles They're not like scuds. He's not point and click. They spread out So only time his missile is really that efficient is if it's in the one-on-one environment inside of his ultimate more particularly So I think once people realize that you could One you can run away from him in his ultimate. You can literally go as far away as you want to Um, you don't have to stay up in there and try and fight him. So if you are a mobile Champion you can just run away. He what is he gonna do nothing? So I think it just came down to maybe people not understanding how revenant works now again to the gideon perspective that that one So gideons, I feel like are probably the hardest one to balance around right because you want him to be an efficient You know powerful mage that that does what he's supposed to do Uh, and then in the hands of somebody who's really experienced that's gonna look really bad I do agree with the game mechanic of winning. They get sucked into the middle Um, you not being able to do anything is is a bit of a feels bad I would argue that maybe there's outplay potential in the fact that you maybe have a blink item Or something along those lines that you can use to kind of disengage from his alt And so it's hard to say exactly whether or not, you know The team will want that to be an impactful thing that hey if I land my alt really well I shouldn't be punished and have them shooting up into my butthole, you know what I mean like Like I landed a beautiful perfect alt and they can't shoot me I should be maybe rewarded for that ability or game Right. Um, I think then if that's the case, they should remove the height at which he can cast his ultimate Um, because I'm making a circle making a sphere instead of a instead of a cylinder Exactly, uh, because there were a few times, uh, that the guy was just you know, it's so high up there I'm not even i'm surprised that the game didn't have a ceiling at that point of that How high he was able to reach um, it was nutty to me, but um Yeah, so from that perspective, I think there are some some some tweaking some things that maybe they make it to where It doesn't fully suck you into the the the the middle It kind of gives you like a little bit of like a eye of the storm out that you can only go into that far Or something to where you could still have opportunities to look up As far as the mechanics of being able to look straight up versus not I don't know what those would be like and maybe somebody who's more of a programmer can comment on that But um, yeah, I think a lot of the overpoweredness Way more times were just people not understanding the kits or not understanding their potential for outplay Um, I know for me as like, you know going up against, uh calari's as scud It was so frustrating Feeling like I could never get rid of her and jelly made it made a mention He's like well, when do you use your shotgun blast to knock her away? I was like almost almost immediately. Well, there you go because as soon as you do that I just wait and I go in and then I can you're now you're dead again. And I'm like, oh Well, that's dumb and obvious, but I in the heat of the moment You just like, ah, there's somebody on top of me right click get away Now they're on top of me again. And so it's like It's a mixture of having outplay also kits like, you know, some you know Bora should be able to be really sticky and you know and be hard to get rid of that's part of her kit and her design But I just think that again it comes down to balancing out like What's the outplay of that if the board is like over the top strong, which she was I think if we're talking overpowered I think board was probably the most overpowered champion in that game. She she had all the healing damage point and click point and click abilities Um, you know, and she's the sexiest of all, you know, so she took down, you know My favorite girl countess is the sexiest in the game. Um, but no, well, honestly She's just really really difficult to deal with Even on coordinated good teams. I mean, I like to think that we were Really trying to hey, we know we need to focus on Bora. Well, there's not a lot of hard cc in this game There's really not and so it's hard to Deal with somebody who's that sticky that fast and does that much damage and has healing vamp Like what do you what do you do unless you're just so far ahead and can all laser focus on her before she can kill Your carries and or your whole team maybe Um, so I think that's something that they need to look at is uh, Is some of the cc aspects of the game too and how Right now with the champions that we currently have now I know that they have a probably a roadmap of when they're going to release other champions and some of those champions will have more You know hard cc, but like I mean before Um, Narbash was in there. What hard cc was there really to deal with with Bora, you know I mean Narbash even then he still has to land his you know his stick to be able to even do a hard cc or his knock up But I don't know. There's maybe two abilities in the rest of the game that it was hard cc on her I mean you had steel muriel uh bellica The she couldn't get out of pawns root I will I will say um, and now I was going to come around to this anyway yeah, because um A lot of the a lot of the heroes were very rock-paper-scissors like one hero would just completely counter another hero and the example i'm thinking of here is For I don't i'm really not sure why phase shit on Bora So hard Like anytime I was facing a Bora and I was a phase just deleted her just really like it was nothing Maybe it's because I was blinding them and they didn't know where to stand To hit me with their wolves or or whatever but like And are pulling them in to interrupt their dash or something I don't know what it was but phase destroyed Bora and I think a lot of the times like If you're playing Bora And all of a sudden you just get destroyed by a phase and there's and it feels like there's zero outplay for it Then you're going to think that phase is overpowered sure or you know if you're playing um Uh, let's a bellica for example her ultimate would absolutely wreck late game. So Gideon was obviously overpowered, but if you're thinking If if you're a Gideon and you face a Veloura bellica, whatever you want to call her in late game You use one ability and then you're dead just because she she lock on altered you You're going to think that veloura is massively overpowered. I agree 100. Yeah I mean, I know for with veloura as a carry it was the same thing I was always low in mana as an ad carry, you know I mean because you're spamming your abilities and they cost a lot when you're an ad carry and you don't buy mana items So you're usually pretty low in mana, especially during a t-fight and I would all of us I'd be popping off and then all of a sudden poof just dead. It'd be like, oh, I got I got altered. Okay. Well It wasn't like she had the combo you she hits r and I died Yep, because she does a lot of damage And I will argue I don't think that like having rock paper scissors in the game is necessarily bad Right. I think a lot of the the MOBAs that we've played in the in the past or any games that have this do offer a bit of a rock paper scissors Like and so the argument would be okay So if I'm if I'm in a a disinfit to just match up, right? So, uh, you know, they're going to kick my butt all game long Okay So what do I as the player do to make meaningful impact somewhere else? Like that's what you're taught and at least for league of legends and almost any other MOBA that I played It's like, okay, so you're going to get your buy handed to you in this game Then don't be here. Do get your farm. Hopefully you can push up the lane and go somewhere else Get your the rest of your team help your jungler with ganks help your off-lane or help your carries Get somewhere else do something else make your your presence felt in a place that you can still have an impact Um, and I think with the the player base as it is now, especially in a solo queue environment Nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to feel like oh, I can't win my matchup or I'm you know, it's either either I'm so good. I'm going to outplay the the matchup that's You know disadvantageous for me or I'm going to play and beat my head into this wall Because I don't want to play it any other way and I don't want to help anyone else That's how I'm here for I want to play in my lane because I picked mid lane I don't want to go there and and I think that that's a part of like, you know, um You're leading into what I would say the next major issue and is a toxicity of understanding your your role in a game like this And understanding, you know from a community perspective of what you are meant to do to help your team overall Win the game You don't always have to be the carry to win your games In fact in our games more times than not our jungler jelly Was carrying us through most of the games because he would take advantage of what he could do He was always ganking. He was always farming and he just knew and understood his role and we all as a group said, hey, this works Let's just set this up. He would carry unless I was with the team and then That I carry in mid lane No, I will I will say the one of the one of the things that you can use the counter that rock paper scissors match up Which over time didn't have and I mentioned this right off the top. We're bringing it right back around items You know itemization that's the itemization put the poor itemization Factor it into the poor balance of the game because you couldn't counter pick items against certain heroes So, yeah I mean, it's it's all like it all comes together right exactly what you're saying So if if okay, so if minions were a little bit more Efficient if items were more efficient if the overall balance and the champions felt like this then Obviously the game would be a lot better, but then you wouldn't have this youtube video. So Yeah, exactly So thank you. So leave You know another thing I think that contributed to the balance to the poor balance of the game was the randomness Of the prime spirit buff You didn't like that. Well, I mean if you think about it If you put if you pick nabash and you get and you get the uh the water spirit You're like sweet all of a sudden your nabash is way more powerful But you have zero control you and the enemy team have zero control whether you get that water spirit or not Whereas if you're playing bellica and the enemy team gets the water spirit, you're like, well fuck Now they're gonna be all full up on mana all the time because they have the water spirit So that kind of played a little bit of a part into it. I think I know no, I definitely agree with you that it played a part. Um It was it was so fun though that I don't want them to get rid of it Like I like that that spirit was was random and would give you random buffs And well, and I think that was part of it too is like I know in a few of our games We had it to where we got two of the buffs or something like that that we were like stoked for that helped our comp Right and but we also had moments in and so this is my counter to you is that it's like there was also times all They just got that buff That means that this idea or this comp that you know thing that we were going to do is going to be slightly more difficult And we would game plan around it like we would try to think outside the box on that or um There was a moment where we were trying to debate between getting the buff or going to prime and we all made the decision We're like, you know what that buff doesn't help us here. Let's just go to prime instead or let's do something else on the map So, um, I don't I do like The idea of all the different, you know buffs And the tuning I think is something that they'll have to look at and see Because I I don't have enough games and I didn't write down the impact that it had on all the numbers and all that stuff to see But, you know, I'm hoping that they do and they look at it and say like, okay So, you know, this one was a little bit over tuned and gave this much advantage and we want that to be, you know Scaled back and um, and this isn't the first time that we've seen something similar to this Like, you know, so heroes of the storm had their version of different random buffs League of legends has their drakes that they all spawn different ones And have their various benefits and so um, I do agree that having another thing that you as the dev have to balance around Is a bit of a complication While the cool mechanic it does make questionable like again, okay Well, we can't buff narbash because if he gets to you know Of this spirit buffs, he will be too strong with these changes right and and so when you're starting to try and like do this against potentially rng aspects Plus still the players making their impact on it with items. Um, I do feel like it can create a big complication I don't think I really felt it Too much in the game. Um, there were moments on some of the longer games We're like, god, dude, they just are never out of mana or they're just always so tanky like we have that one where there was a Their jungler was just tanky out of his mind And I was full build all armor shredding our items going back to itemization There was not enough items in there to deal with this guy But we had all five of us attacking him and he had a myriad just full shields He had full shields from his items and he just was unkillable He was just a raid boss into himself and we couldn't do anything about it and that's it feels bad like there So it does have an impact, but um, I think that the mechanic itself is is cool I just They need to make sure that having it doesn't Negate from the other bigger picture items like if it's a nice like Small buff that gives you a little bit makes it worth it to take it because it should be. Um That's fine. Um, but I don't want it to be The decider on whether or not a team wins or loses because they You know got three fire buffs in a row right and you didn't I was like, yeah, that's what I'd like to see Is it less likely to stack? I know one example, um, a game I was playing. Um, I think it was with bearded and when doing them We had three water spirits like three water spirits spawn in a row We got all three and we had three water spirits. That's six percent Fucking in health and mana reach in every five seconds. That's stupid Yeah, that's too much. Yeah I know for I for league they do it to where like Now their whole system is probably way different, but they do it where um, you can have multiples. Um, but like There's like a lower percentage chance that once you have the one that the next one will come in of the same type Not an impossibility, but it does lower and and I could be okay with that like so you will have games Maybe we're like it's also, you know, yeah water spirits and you're just like, dude, that's crazy. We won the jackpot Um, but again, I also think that there's also something to be said and and um, I'm hopeful that you know In a more competitive environment as the game gets to where it's going Is you will have teams understanding and gaming around that like hey, it's another water spirit They got the first one. We can't let them have that one. We have to be there for that team fight We have to be involved in that to make sure that they don't get it Well, what are we going to give up in that to make that team fight happen? Right now, there's not a lot you give up because minion waves don't matter But if they did all of a sudden those those questions and again turning the game from checkers into chess starts to Pop up of like what can we do to prevent this snowball from happening? But what can they do to make that's you know, the us reducing their snowball worse for us, right? But obviously we don't have that in the game. So That those again are the compounding effects I think of of the first few that we touched on but um, I like the idea going back to your initial thing I do like the idea and just make sure that it's implemented correctly. Yeah Well in the interest of brevity, let's each Give one more example of things that we want Them to improve and over prime And then we'll we'll start closing out this video even though there's probably way more stuff and let us Hey guys, let us know if we missed something. Let us know in the comments And I hope we can get a good conversation going over that Um, I have one in mind. Do you have one in mind or no? I do. Yeah, I've got one. Okay. Go for it You want me to go? Okay? So this one is going to be a little bit more at you guys. Um, One of the things that was driving me crazy and I know it drew drew the guy crazy was the the unnecessary Toxicity from the community itself. Oh god I I was so disappointed because this is literally probably the lowest stakes version of a MOBA game that you can have it's literally in a closed beta There's no competitive. There's no ranked. You don't earn any extra rewards You don't you literally all the skins you can buy them with the currency that they give you Like there's nothing there other than just you know trying to learn the game and have fun and win as many of them as you can Which I get you want to win but like the way that I would see Players treating other players who were obviously new was just so disappointing um, you know reading like the comments and the in in the different um forums and seeing like how Just mean people were uh about you know, this game was just to me was a big disappointment I was really really surprised by that and and I just don't see the point in it Like for the most of us the average gamer none of us are going to become pros If over prime becomes like this really big thing gets as big as let's say smite or league of legends even or whatever Not most people who are watching me talk right now. You are not going to become a pro at this game You are not you might be challenging for some of the maybe you know middle to the top spots Let's say but you're not going to become a pro So why act like Somehow this other player who's just trying to do their best is preventing you from reaching something Like you you what you should be doing is looking and saying hey, how can I help this guy get better? If I if I have knowledge to impasse Hey, man, I noticed that on this you use this instead of that and I'm just telling you this will probably help you Or hey, I saw this video that mango's put out You should go check it out It goes over like how to play your your character in this way or something You know what I mean like let's be a force of positivity in this space because Being negative costs you more games than it helps you because what are you gonna do? You're gonna put that guy on the defensive. He's not gonna want to listen to your callouts He's not he's just gonna do his own thing anyway. So why even go down that path? And so I think From that perspective, um, I would like to see the over prime team step in I think that they need to do a better tutorial. Um, and when we mentioned this in the last video I think a lot of these types of of games can do better by setting people up for success in understanding The the complexities of MOBA not everybody comes into it and understanding wave management and ganking and you know Neutral camps and all this stuff like even if like I said, it's simplest way would just do have videos But even if it's something that they do go play through on like, you know understanding game timings or any or Terminologies like that. I think it would set up the newer player base to be a little bit more Effective and maybe the veterans wouldn't have to feel like they're Handholding people as much but it was just really really disappointing in this environment in particular. This isn't even a launch game It's not in ranked play. It's not even ranked play. It's literally for fun quick play against Who knows who with nothing on the table other than your time and you're getting to play the game in close beta I just don't understand. I was blowing away. Sometimes people's egos can't take a loss. They just can't take a loss I will say solely did a pretty good job of managing a lot of that like, um Like they were banning people left and right and it wasn't just For what my problem was going to be which was hacking but But they were banning people for toxicity left and right and for and for like leaving over and over again The lever penalty the first instance of leaving was 30 minutes. Yeah, which you know kind of Fuck some people over because I know like at least one guy he um Like his power went out or he got disconnected or something and then he reconnected to the game played it out It's still got a 30 minute lever penalty. Oh, did he? Oh, I think if you reconnect, obviously that should go away But I mean, yeah, I was happy about that part. They did they were like for the really egregious stuff I think you know people using expletives that were obviously have no place in gaming You know making sex remarks and stuff like that like none of that is is valuable to any You know community and I think that I loved and we talked about this in the last video I loved how proactive they were in showing This this this name this person because you even knew somebody who knew one of the guys were like I reported that guy and now I see him on this band list like that's Massive like that's a really good thing. Um, I still like that they as the team can do more and Have more of an impact on improving it and again, this was close beta So they do have plenty of time to kind of do some of those stuff But it was more of like just the self governing You know of the players themselves of just like Immediately like going to what I would consider like the most toxic way of approaching playing in a community game Uh, it just felt like they did they they went the I mean, it's not all people were bad actors In fact, most people probably just didn't even talk but there were enough that I noticed it consistently that I was like What is going on here? So that was my last one That's a good one Yeah, but my last one was and solely did crack down on this quite a bit But I don't understand how it happened in the first place was all the hackers Um, they have like a channel in their discord where people could report hackers Holy shit, is it hilarious? And I kind of want to go through and record some of that stuff and make a video because you got like murdoch just firing his ultimate over and over and over again like no pause just sniping people from his core Then you got sparrow just basic attacking people from from from her fountain and killing people in lane You got the one that I posted with the gideon machine gunner. Um, you got speed hacks all over the place that I haven't seen that in any of the other paragon remakes and you would think What as prevalent as it was in the over prime test that it would be more prevalent in those um, maybe it's just because they had so many people like they had more people I think than Then I mean they started with 15 000 that first day, but I mean predecessor had A massive audience for for their last stress test And they I I didn't see anybody hacking and predecessor and I certainly Maybe somebody or other complained about it or but that a lot of times that's just People thinking it was a hack when it's actually just somebody being really good or what have you but There were definite Very obvious hacks in over prime and they need to get a handle on that I don't know what they could do with their coding or they had their Was it easy anti-cheat or whatever they need something to put a halt on that and again The stakes are so low. Why hack this game? Like yeah, I feel blessed that I didn't encounter any hackers that I know of in my game There were a few that I felt like were a little questionable But um, again, that could just come down to where it was just uh Them understanding mechanics and movement and stuff like that better than I was expecting them to You know, I think when you're around in the gaming Sphere for a while you start to kind of get a bit of an instinct for stuff Like you could speak that just seems odd and weird and you know I don't always encourage anybody like if you feel like it was something Maybe it was report it let the devs figure it out. They have stuff in place It's not on you to be calling them out and trying to to you know, make it into a tiktok clip or something like that But um, yeah, the blatant cheating thing was super weird The only thing I can think of is that in some cases like Being that we had a worldwide Test that there are known servers that where cheating is tends to be a bit more aggressive And almost looked upon as like a positive aspect of you win in any way any causes and so maybe Because overprime has a good chance to capture an audience in those areas they uh the People who could benefit from it the hackers who i'm talking about the people who can benefit from selling these hacks We're using this beta as a way to say hey, we know how to hack this game Hey, we know how to make you unkillable and do all these things Um, and then there's also I think something that we might not have seen in our community Too much, but maybe there's in another community of people being trolls just wanting to ruin people's games It's a free to play, you know beta and they could just get in there They knew they were going to get banned but they could get maybe five or ten games and using these cheats and And make you know videos about it and laugh to them and their idiotic friends about how cool they are And how edgy they are being able to go in there and ruin the fun of these guys But um, I obviously we're hopeful that that won't be something that comes to fruition later on Um, but those would be my guesses, but yeah, it was it's dumb. I don't understand Especially like you said the lowest of low stakes. There's literally no benefit You get everything all the skins are free. There was no real MMR. There's no no ranks None of that stuff. It was literally like the most for fun. You can really have any in a Game like this. I don't I don't know. It makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah All right, well, let's start wrapping this up, uh Do you have anything just any final thoughts you want to throw out there biking for me before we close out? Um You know, honestly, I think we touched on so many of the the aspects. Uh, I really love the tournament I thought the tournament was a really good eye opener for for kind of seeing some of the the benefits of, you know, um, communication and um different, you know game styles like You know warding and all that stuff like there's I think what I'm most excited for to try and keep it brief Is the the potential of this game? I feel like that the potential has a really really high ceiling Um, I again, I really I had a lot of fun. I'm excited to see what ranks could look like in a game like this I'm excited to see what they can do with, you know, um, figuring out their identity as far as like how they want minions to work And um, you know the balance around the the neutral objectives and you know, all that fun stuff I am extremely excited about this one. Um, I I'm still of the mindset that like, you know I don't think the paragon was a perfect game And so going back to just another paragon won't be beneficial or it won't capture a major audience I think overprime has an opportunity because of its differences to capture a wider audience, you know, and and maybe steal some of the audience from People who play smite, for example, but don't want to play the normal smite They want to play more of the the team deathmatch type of smite or league of legends players who like playing mobas But don't like the the style that league does it Um, or the first person third person shooter, you know, uh players who want to play something Like taking call of duty and putting it into a moba style And you know, I think overprime can capture all those different types of players Um, well, they do so. I mean that's up to them to decide but I think they have the the potential to do so And and I'm excited to see if they are able to Yeah 100% um and again guys If we didn't touch on something that you think that overprime could improve There's a lot of stuff. There's stuff that I can think of right now, but I'm not gonna say it Let us let us know in the comments below and uh, and we'll talk about it and uh Once once I get all the comments and everything we've talked about today I'm gonna put that into a big list of feedback and get that Over to soul leave so that they know what the community is thinking but uh, yeah Viking Jedi, I'll have your youtube and twitch link down below. What's the last time you did a youtube video? Uh, it's been like a year this and I've done a youtube video, uh I you know, I just it's it's one of those things and I'm sure people in your audience can relate. I I just feel like um The market is sometimes so saturated with people trying to make content And I never felt like my content was all that great to begin with But I'm happy to be part of content. I I like uh I like so this is my thing and I don't want to take up a whole lot of time But I think a lot of of your audience and you will probably relate to this But I I'm an old school gamer guy like I remember the days of sitting next to my buddies at their house Or at my house. Well, you know, we're both playing super mario brothers or you know zelda or you know Final fantasy or something like that and your victories were just as much my victories and my victories were just as much Your victories and you make something happen and you're stoked and you're excited And that's what I love about making content or at least being part of content Um, and so like getting a chance to do stuff like this, you know and interact and do those things That's that's what I thrive for. I haven't had a found a way to do so efficiently through my own content But uh, maybe if I do We'll see another video pop up But in the meantime, I'm very happy to be part of stuff like this and and uh, whatever we end up doing in the future Because it is a lot of fun and and I like being part of it right on Well, I'm happy to have you but that is going to close out the video for this week Again guys, if you want updates on all of the different paragon remakes Uh, please subscribe to my channel because I try my best to give the most unbiased coverage As possible and if you like this video, go ahead and hit that like button for us But for now, this is man goose and the viking jedi signing off. Oh, I can't even do that You guys Man goose Special shout out to channel members. I blood hunter jelly knees meow mix for men stunt raven and blastoise king