 And welcome everybody to the AIN Big Topic webinar. It's a webinar of up to 90 minutes with the AIN, the applied improvisation network. And my name is Paul Z. Jackson. And I'm going to be introducing the part of Tint in just a moment, the president of the AIN. Just to let you know that this session is being recorded and will be available afterwards on the AIN. YouTube channel as well. We've got chat working. So please contribute comments either as they come up. And while we'll see the moral guide, her towards what the commentary is saying as needed, because she's going to be doing some screen sharing as well. So thanks very much for everyone for being here. And I'm delighted to hand over to Barb. Good morning or afternoon or evening or middle of the night, any of you. We do have a goal of, we're all differently challenged with time. Right now it's eight in the morning for me. I'm in Portland, Oregon, USA. I'm sorry that my colleague and collaborator, Simo Rutarin from Finland is not able to join us today. So I'm going to go ahead and talk to him. He is ill and he also just had, he just moved. So he's got a lot going on. He's ill. So he sends his regrets. And our plan is to hopefully follow up with this with another session at another time. So what I thought I would do is frame the, the webinar like this. And then I will share some slides and some of the, the content that I have worked with over the years. And then we will gear some of the responses and discussion to your particular interests. How does that sound? Yeah. I would hear from some of you and we can do that in the chat. Some of the questions you have or the interests you have in this topic. And then I will share some slides and some of the, the content that I have worked with over the years. So what does that sound? Yeah. I see some hands. And I want to acknowledge that for me, I think that this is a bit of a bottomless topic. And I'll share a little bit about how I came to do this work and how Simo and I came to collaborate together. So my origins as a practitioner of applied improvisation, like many of us did not actually start with improvisation. I was a university professor. I was a psychologist. I still am, I guess. And I dealt a lot with large scale social issues, international conflict around the world. I had initially been a clinician, a family therapist many, many years ago. And I was always very, very interested in topics of power issues of power. Hello, whoever's joining. Power in families, power in communities, power in nations, power, how it shows up in all kinds of ways. It was the topic that most compelled me. I held a symposium in 2005 of international peace psychologists. And that was the theme that I chose. So it's always been an ongoing interest area of mine. And when I fell into the applied improvisation world in 2009, so it's been 10 years. I met a lot of people, including Cimo, who were talking about this concept called status. And Cimo and I spent about two years kind of arguing about what the hell we meant by these terms, power and status and what do we mean. And I would go to workshops and I would say, what's the difference between power and status? And people would like to scrunch up their face and not always know what, how to name that. So it became a source of our collaboration. And this webinar is not going to be about our whole framework. We've developed a whole framework, but it's going to be about a piece of the framework that, that we work with to try to unpack kind of what these concepts mean, how they are enacted on a regular basis and, and what to do about them. So that's kind of my short description. And I'm just wondering if you all want to type into the chat, your interest in this topic, your questions about this topic, and then we'll, we'll launch from there. Does everyone see where the chat is to be able to type into it? I see nobody typing yet. Are people typing? If I don't see any questions, I'll assume you know everything and then I'll let you teach it. Okay. So someone says they're going to listen. We use status heavily in customer service, of course. Very excited to hear more about the work. Yep. Yep. Yep. Present everywhere. We're a client deeply involved in your power. I'd love to know how you bring those together. Great. Great. Okay. Well, I'm going to make an assumption, which I'm always cautious to do, that if you're here, it's just a topic that's of significant interest to you. And that we all have a lot to learn from each other. Those are two assumptions. So, okay. Great. Awesome. Okay. Okay. Okay. Great. Great. Great. I'm also keen to hear your language of the words used to speak about the topic. No pressure. Okay. Well, I'm going to give you. Hello. Goodbye. So I'm going to give you just a very brief snippet of some of how we're thinking about this work. And then we can share some examples. And then we can talk about some exercises. And then I will offer some cautionary tales. And we'll discuss because I believe that you all have a great deal of. Knowledge as well. So I think there's a lot we can learn from each other. So now I will try to share my screen. See if I can do that. Well. Oh, look at that. It did it. Okay. Can everyone see the screen? Yes. So I think I can't share the screen and look at the chat at the same time, or at least I don't know how. So at this point, Paul, if you're there, please let me know if there's something going on in the chat that I should be alerted to. Okay. We'll be doing that. If there are questions or comments from time to time. Thank you. Okay. So some of how we train, when we train about this topic is framed around three, three goals and they're, they're very fundamental, but one is to increase awareness. And I think that the, in the chat, one of the people said that. They're interested in the fact that status is present in all interactions and most people are unaware of it, except maybe improvisers, which I think is true. And I would add that probably a lot of improvisers are not always aware of it. I think often improvisers are very aware of the concept of status on stage, but we lose sight of it in our daily interactions. I lose sight of it because, you know, I'm just a human walking through the planet and we can't be conscious of everything all the time. So part of the work is just to increase awareness. It's to increase the awareness that status interactions are in fact present all the time. And to be more conscious of one's own participation in that, as well as being more aware of what's happening for others. And I'll, I'll speak more about that as well, because our consciousness about ourselves and others is going to be different, obviously. And so from that, we want to increase our intention. And from our perspective, hopefully our positive intention that with increased awareness, we can choose how we want to move in the world a little differently. Our purpose and intention, our intention is an internal thing. And then, of course, the last part of this is actually the choice that we make. So awareness and intention are internal. The choice is, is largely external. That's what you do. So the goal of our work is to increase the capacity for all of these things in a positive direction and a constructive direction. The name of our kind of motto is, you know, using power for good. So we want people to use these awarenesses for constructive good. And please feel free at any point to, if you have a question, pop it in. So we, this can be an exchange and a discussion. I don't, I don't need to ramble on if you have a question now. So I'll pause for just a few seconds and see if there are any questions or comments. And Paul, you'll have to be my eyes and ears on that. Nothing yet, but sometimes it takes people, the moments are due to type in response to that invitation. So I'll let you know if anything comes up. Okay. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll wait after each one. Five, four, three, two. Okay. I will assume this is clear. Crystal clear so far, Bob. So please continue. Not complicated. Okay, great. So. This is one of our cushionary slides. Mind the gap. That's the Grand Canyon. And of course the fabulous famous. Message from the, the tube in London. And, and what gap am I talking about? It is what we call the awareness gap. Right. So for example, if you're throwing a Frisbee. You're throwing a Frisbee. You're throwing a Frisbee. You're throwing a Frisbee to somebody. And instead of landing beautifully in their hands, you end up hitting somebody else walking through the park in the head. What do you typically do? What would be your. Typical response. You apologize. You apologize. Exactly. You say, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Right? Well, in the kinds of interactions we're talking about. Um, we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions. And we judge others by their impact. So in the, in the Frisbee metaphor, um, if this were more human or interaction, we would be less inclined to say, Oh, I'm so sorry. We would say, I didn't, I didn't need to do that. I meant to throw it to my friend. And we're somehow absolved or exonerated from the harm we have caused. Um, and so part of our work is to not in that, you know, awareness intention choice frame is to actually remember that when we have caused an impact, regardless of our intention, we have to acknowledge the, the impact first. We have to say, I'm so sorry. Seems like I've hurt you. It seems like I've caused you some harm or frustration. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because people are not typically interested in our intentions. When they have been harmed in some way. And a lot of the, the challenge and the harm that comes through status interactions is often unintentional. You know, we, we are all, you know, decent people trying to do decent things in the world. So one of the things we talk about is how. To acknowledge impact without moving into that defensive, defensive stance that we often come into. If you'd like, please. Yeah. A couple of people typed in that they'd apologize or say sorry. In response to your question. And before that, there was some comments on the introduction that you gave. So from Angelina quote using power for good. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Hopefully reminds me of Lord of the Rings. With a smile. I first became aware of this status constant into action in the Celestine prophecy. That was a book. As I recall. Okay. Please don't assume says Patrick that performance improvisers have been a part of this. I've run into many who don't. Because he's running around with high status all the time. Those were the three comments or four comments. Thank you. Thank you. I'll work. I'll work backwards from those. So yes, I was just involved last month. In a variety of improvisation workshops and classes as a student. I was thrilled to just be able to go take in breath classes. And it was an advanced class. And I was very excited about it. I think that there were unbelievably high status players who were completely. It seemed to me very unaware of their status behavior. And. I spoke with the teacher afterwards who came to a status workshop that I did on another day. And he said, Oh wow, we really need this in our class. And I thought, yes, you do. So, so there was a way in which actually those players were not aware. I know what it is, but I did not see it. So I'm not completely sure. About the, the reference or the. Comparison there. So maybe whoever said that can illuminate us. And then from the Lord of the rings. Angelina, can you share more about your reference for how using power was that a line they used as well in Lord of the Rings using power for good. No, the whole idea is that you can't use the ring for good. Because it will corrupt. You wore those around you. Got it. Okay. Well, we're here to rewrite. Story. And I believe that one, we can use these tools for good. And along with that, we might have the goal of using it for good. And it might have a different impact. Right. So this is the tricky bit. We might actually think we're doing good. We might actually think we're doing good. And the impact may land differently. Then we intend. And that's, that's the tricky bit because then we're going to be more likely to try to defend our intentions rather than. Be open to understanding the impact. I think it's something I see a lot. I mean, some of us might be higher on that. Evolutionary scale than others, you know, but I think it's a good idea. To listen to our impact without getting defensive, but it's difficult even for those of us who, you know, have been doing this work for years. It's, it's hard to hear that we've caused harm, especially inadvertent harm. Awesome. So, and is there any input on that Celestine prophecy? Reference. Nothing more as yet, but I put in that status as a key concept and early chapter. Yeah. It's very interesting if it's not being taught. Yeah. We might well have a webinar in future on what is being taught. Yeah. That would be awesome. And of course I'm making an assumption right now, which I appreciate you're reminding me this probably not ever smart to do that. Everybody knows the origins of this concept in our improvisational world. So Keith Johnstone did coin this concept of status. In his work and in the book in pro and he, he actually derived his thinking from reading the naked ape by Desmond Morris, which was really a book very much about, you know, primates and humans and evolutionary behavior. So his concept and his thinking about status derived from that. And in conversations with Keith that I've had and in videos that I've seen of Keith, he actually talks about the fact that he didn't really know what to call it. And what he really is referring to is dominance and submission. And I will say that a lot of the problems that we have in, in teaching about status is the term because, and I'll get to that in a minute is that it, it's often confused and conflated with social status or social status, as we might say here, because that's the, that's the concept that comes into people's minds and they're not the same. And that's where some of this work derived. That's where some of the disagreement or misunderstanding derived for SEMO and me when we would talk about these terms and we actually were talking about very different things. So are there any more comments or questions before I move forward? There's nothing yet in the chance, but if anything comes in the next few minutes, I'll alert you again. All right. Well, off I'll go. So here we go. The way we, and we specifically when we train, we use the term status behavior for that very, very reason is because we don't want it to be confused with social status. Now it doesn't mean they're not in any way connected and I'll explain a little bit more about that, but that the way we decide to define status behavior is visible and audible expression or dominance or deference. And we use the word deference rather than submission because submission is so evocative for people. That we're trying to modulate the terminology so people can be a little bit more receptive to the concepts. So that it is visible and it is audible. Any comments or questions about that? Yep. There's a couple of comments have come in. Patrick agrees with you that they're not the same. The social status and the John Stoney and status or improvisation status. And Dineka says that what was confusing for her is that with status, a lot of time it's referred to as status transactions. I guess it's what you're getting to with the behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Well, without knowing exactly, Dineka, what part of that is confusing, I would say, and you can share more about that. I would say that the transactional element is interpersonal transaction. You know, if I come in and I'm like, Hey, how are you doing? And you back up because I come in very high. That's a, that's a transaction. That's an interpersonal transaction. So I'm not sure where the confusion or question might be about that. Do you want to elaborate? You need to unmute Dineka to see that. Yeah, I couldn't unmute myself. What was confusing for me that a lot of times when there, when people were referring to status transactions, they were calling it simply status and status. Yeah, it sounds less interactive to me more like a given state or something and not like an interactive transaction. Exactly. And that's part of why, you know, we've developed this whole framework, which, you know, maybe we can share on a different webinar that really impacts that. I mean, a lot of my confusion came from early on where people would say things like, Oh, well, he's the CEO. So he's really high status. And I thought, well, that actually is not status or status. That's rank. And that sort of brings us to kind of the master servant scenes from Johnstone where he would play a lot of master servant games. And in a lot of cases, the servant had much higher status behavior than the master, you know, that kind of thing. And now those are the kinds of things we play with. So the CEO may be high status or low status, depending on how they interact. So you can have a high status CEO or a low status CEO. So it's, it's not a thing. So status behavior is always dynamic. It's always interactive. Right. It's always changing. Right. It's, it's dynamic. It's interactive. It can change in a millisecond. So very nice slide. There's a comment from Angelina as well. She says, I think something that confuses me at times is that in professional settings, I apparently give off a much higher status than I'm aware of or intend to do. How much of status is in the eye of the observer? And what when there are multiple observers who each have their own idea of it? Well, that's a beautiful question. And I'm going to both answer it and then ask you to hold it because I think we'll touch on some things during the course of the webinar that might also answer that. So absolutely because status is an interactive phenomenon, part of the dynamic is the mess that the signals were sending. And part of it is how they are received. And so if you have 10 observers or 10 recipients, they may be received in 10 different ways. And that depends on the receiver. Right. And, and I'm going to leave that there. And then as I go through some of the concepts, Angelina, I think some of what I'm going to talk about will also answer that as well. And that's part of the awareness gap. It's like, you think you're doing a, and eight people come up to you thinking you've done C based on their reception or interpretation of your behavior. And that's the other piece that I didn't talk about in here so much, but I want to name it maybe now is it's not just how people receive your behavior. It's how they interpret your behavior. Right. So five people may receive it the same way, but they might interpret it very differently based on their own worldviews and their own contextual backgrounds. Right. So it's a great and very important question and very relevant to some of our thinking and where we're going. Added an aspect to that question as well. Yeah. How about what's about how people's tone of voice affects status, but they are unaware of this tone of voice is absolutely part of status. So again, sometimes it's in our awareness. Sometimes it isn't. So if you look at communication research, one of the statistics that I often share, even though I would, I would reserve the right to give it a little leeway is that about what percentage of the messages we send are actually in the words we use. Anybody have a guess? I can't see the chat. So I'll tell you the percentage of this team. Yes, exactly. So it's like a seven to 10% of the messages we send are actually in the words we use. Right. The rest is in our body language, our appearance, our voice tone are all of the things that we are often doing unconsciously. Right. And that is related to status for sure. For sure. So if I say, Hi, my name is Barbara. Or if I say, Hi, my name is Barbara. Nothing changed, but my voice tone. And I sent very, very different messages in those two interactions. So I'm going to go back to that. Which is why I will always come back to, you know, increasing our own awareness, not just of others, but of self, because then we can make choice. We can make more, I'm just checking the time, but we're good. We can make more intentional choice. It doesn't mean we, we don't get to be who we are, but part of our work in, in training around status and power is to increase people's range of flexibility. Right. Okay. Awesome. Any. Other questions or. Yeah, Angelina has added it's why we. Also love emojis in written messages. Why? Cause it increases our range of flexibility. Exactly. It adds to the words themselves with an emotional content. It does. It does. I mean, have you ever been on the other side of an email or somebody's typing in all caps and they, you think they're yelling at you. Okay. Awesome. Anything else. Not yet. Okay. Great. So off we go. I love that slide. And it's the only slide I have that actually can move. It's amazing. Okay. So one of the things we also really try to talk about when we teach about status behavior is that there's often this myth that a high status person is a bully and a low status person is a bully and a low status person is a bully. Right. And that we want people to understand that either choice or in, in between as well can be used constructively or destructively. Right. So what would be an example of a dominant high status. Constructive. High status. I see there's a fire in the room. I know the way out of here. Please follow me. Beautiful. Exactly. So we often use this example. So in an emergency situation, you want somebody to be really high status, telling people what to do, talking loud, moving quickly and getting people safe. Right. It's, it's not the time to be like, well, what do you think? Right. It's, it's not the time to be like, well, what do you think? Right? It's, it's, let's go. So that would be an example of a, of a constructive dominant high status interaction. What would be an example of a destructive or negative dominant. High status interaction. There are many of these in schools. Bullying bullies. Exactly. So we often see bullies, whether it's in school or work or in politics, very dominant, very high status behavior, but very destructive. They use it for belittling others. They use it to elevate themselves at the expense of others. There's a couple of suggestions as well. Angelina, parent telling a child because I told you to do so. Yeah. And from Jean. Follow me. I have all the answers. Yeah. Well, now that's an interesting one, Jean, because in the emergency, that may be positive high status, right? Because it's like, follow me. We don't have time to talk. Let's go. But yeah, somebody who's not willing to listen to others, if it's not an emergency situation, it can be a very destructive interaction. Right. Exactly. So what would be an example of a negative low status behavior, destructive low status? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? So answers coming in on chat. Poor me. Poor me. So somebody who's sort of operating as a victim. In a lot of situations. Bringing self down because they don't feel confident. Uh-huh. Learned helplessness. Learned helplessness. Beautiful. Wonderful. Yeah. Or if somebody like me was coming in to do a training on status, and I was like, um, hi, um, uh, I'm here, I'm here to talk about, uh, status. Right. How much confidence do you have in me as a trainer? Um, when would a low status behavior, what are some examples of when it could be constructed? I know some people are typing you have the option as well of unmuting and jumping in. Yeah. Small enough you can share with voice. Yeah. There's few of us enough to do that. Um, Dineka is either making a comment about the. Whole webinar, or was given an example. or is given an example, I'm a huge fan of you. Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. I would say that statement could be shared in either a higher or low status way. Right? You could be like, I am a huge fan of you. Or you could be like, I'm a huge fan of you. But we'll get to that in a minute. You can use it sarcastically. I'm a huge fan of you. Oh, yes, you can. A couple more offers. Deference. And when a boss is open to lower his status in order to let others share their ideas. Beautiful. Beautiful. So you might have a leader or a boss or a supervisor really very much lowering their physical stance, quieting down, listening, leaning in, and empowering others to contribute in a way that allows them to feel valued and a part of something that's going on. I see a small human in the room with you. And I think part of what, oh, I just figured out how to do what I needed to do. Part of what I think about is with children. You know, sometimes you have to get really small and really quiet and say, tell me what's upsetting you. Right? Rather than tell me what's upsetting you right now. So there are choices. So in this consciousness and awareness and intention and choice, we want to unpack this notion that status is either an ugly bully or a pathetic one. Right? That any of these choices can be used for good, for your own good, for others good, and for the good of the interaction. Okay, now this might not be new to a lot of you. But again, in the kind of training we do, we have a range of people, you know, who might be experts in status themselves to people who have never heard the term before at all. So we try to really start at the floor and make sure we're all on the same page. Any comments or questions thus far? Yes. Did you just say you'd work out how to see the chat? Well, I will tell you that I work, no, I worked out how to get out of the full screen, but I don't, I'm afraid to go to the zoom. Okay, I'll read the two new comments to you. Yeah, okay. Another one is an example of the constructive deferential stance, which is help me help you. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, nice. And then Dinnika has given four types of status. Well, I think we should invite her to describe that herself. Please. Okay. When in play, but also when teaching it to employee work, I use four types of status. It has to do with giving space or taking space to yourself and the other. So you can be either a high status by raising yourself, which I always smell, I smell really good, in which you take your own space. You can try to heighten your own status by lowering the status of another person. I call it the Donald Trump way. It's removing actually space from the other. So you don't say I smell good. You say you stink. And trying to get a higher status in that way, you can lower your own status by saying to the other, are you smell really good? So you give more space to the other, or you can have a lower status because you say, okay, I stink, in which you actually remove space from yourself. Well, thank you for that. It must be that we're on the same page. Does that look like that? Yes. Perfect timing. Beautiful. Thank you. And I specifically use these examples as verbal status moves. So again, status can be how much space you take up, but it's also your verbal interaction. And the examples I give I ask people to say to me four different times, I just read Moby Dick. So the first person says, I just read Moby Dick. And I say, Oh my God, you're so amazing with all the things you have to do. Second person says, I just read Moby Dick. And I say, for the first time, third person says, I just read Moby Dick. And I say, Oh my God, I could not get through that book. I couldn't I tried five times. And the fourth person says, I just read Moby Dick. And I say, me too, in French. So exactly that. So again, increasing consciousness around not just physical space, but verbal choices. And I just I just did a presentation on status in a medical school and everybody's eyes were just wide, wide, wide, because there are a few places in academia and the medical world are very filled with sort of hierarchy and competition. So these phenomenon are quite present most of the time. And people are probably not aware of how much it's happening on a regular basis on a daily basis in so many interactions. They don't know why they go home feeling like crap, a lot. So bringing this to the fore is is is really important. Awesome. Any other comments or questions? We talked about only having an hour, I can stay on a little longer. I thought it was an hour, but I want to make sure we get to some of the the other concepts that we're looking at. So again, we've developed a whole framework, we're not sharing the whole thing here. I'm just going to share one piece of it. So in my work, oh, one more thing. So this might have something to do with your question, Angelina, related to, you know, how people receive you. So when we think about different groups of people, different groups, and we have like kind of the concept of the double bell curve, right? Not everybody in every group is the same, but different groups have trends and inclinations in certain directions of different status comfort zones. And I often use the example that I'm from New York. And I moved to Oregon on the West Coast and New York is a very high status behavior culture, right? We're loud, we're fast, you know, we take up space and then I moved to Oregon and I didn't understand why people kept like moving back when I spoke, right? And so, so different groups have different status comfort zones. Now you might be at the very top of either of these groups or at the very bottom, which means you're on either end of that bell curve. But what you will see is the likelihood is that when people from group A interact with people from group B, that there can often be misunderstandings and collisions. And this is part of why I think Angelina, let's say different people interpret or receive your behavior differently is depending on their status comfort zone, your status may come in relatively high or low for them. So that's part of it. Which brings me to kind of the next, so what we're looking at in this webinar is the relationship between status and power, status behavior, and kind of the larger concept of power. So power comes in many, many forms. And just off the top of your, you know, like what, when you hear the word power, what comes to your mind? You can type it in and you can say it. While we're waiting for typings or comments, there's a question from Denika, is it only verbal? I would think this could also be in body language. And we've got some answers to the power question coming in as well now. Yes, yes. Oh yes, it's absolutely related to body language and physical space, but I wanted to pull out the verbal status moves as one part of status, because I think if we only teach status as something that's physical, then we lose sight of those very, very frequent verbal interactions that are exactly one of those four choices. Yeah. And they go together often, but not always. So you could have a low physical status and still putting, you know, like putting someone down verbally. So it becomes complicated, right? Because it's not like it's either all this or all that. And that's why the minutiae of it and the complexity of it is so, so big. So what is power? Here are some of the answers that come in. Yeah, dollar, dollar, dollar. CEO, politics, economics. I have no choice. Control of resources, control of decision making, control when people like someone. Awesome. Beautiful. So even in those answers, we see that power comes in different forms. Some of it is your rank, right? You're the CEO. Some of it is the resources you have, let's say money. And again, in our whole framework, we unpack those very specifically, but on a very sort of general level, we use this definition of power, the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events. So we see that actually, status behavior is one form of power. Even though there are many, many others, which is why we, in our frame of using power for good, we want to teach people to use status behavior for good, but it's also only one form of power. And the place where Simo and I came together and our work was very much around, you know, he was sort of one of the leading thinkers and doers in the world of status training. And my world was very much, oh, there's the Frisbee. I don't know why that ended up there. Well, that's the intention impact guy. Just to remind you. So my work was very much around societal influence, like embedded group-based advantage or privilege. Right. And I was very curious about the interaction between status behavior and this group-based phenomenon. Right. Or what we look at as the relationship between structure and agency. Right. So, you know, we're born into a world where racism exists. We're born into a world where patriarchy exists. We didn't create it. But what agency do we have within that? So this visual of, you know, you're in a, you're in a structure that you didn't create, but what agency do you have? You know, if you're that person in the car in the middle, you might not have as much agency as the person in the front who can veer off or go faster or whatever. Right. So we have begun to explore very much this relationship between structure and agency. Right. The systemic societal power and our individual choices. And in this case, we're looking at status behavior. A quick question from Jean. Please define the word agency. Oh, thank you so much. Well, so we think of agency as the ability to affect or impact one's own world through choice. Right. Is how much mobility, how much choice, how much freedom do I have to actually impact my own world? Potentially the world of others, but it's, you know, it's, it's freedom, it's choice, it's impact. So we see that, and again, it's not, you know, we don't presume that it's, it's a formulaic causal influence. Like if you're born into this race, into this place, into this economic class, therefore you will have these experiences. And if you're born here, therefore you will have these, but we know there will be an impact. So some people born in one world might internalize a negative experience and get defeated. This, another person in that world might say, by God, I'm going to fight my way out no matter what, you know? I mean, so we, we don't know how people are impacted by their societal experiences, but we know that they are. So we know that it will impact status behavior in some way. And we know that the world will react to status behavior from different groups in different ways. And often how that societal influence impacts us is often invisible to us. And it's typically more invisible to people who have more societal power. So if we look at, you know, groups of people, whether it's, you know, white people or people of color or, or, you know, dominant gendered men versus, you know, gender minorities, it is often the groups that are more dominant, that are less aware of, or their power is less visible to them. It's a common phenomenon we see in, in, in most places. Or what we call, you know, does a fish know water? You know, how many of you have lived in environments other than the ones you grew up in. And it was only when you were out of that environment you were aware, perhaps more of the social influences that you were carrying with you. Me. Anyone else? Yeah. So, you know, I often use this question, does a fish know water? And typically the answer is, well, the fish knows water when it's out of it. When it's swimming around, it's like, you know, oh yeah, I'm just in my thing. But oftentimes people from, you know, minority groups are swimming in water that is not their water. And that's where sort of dominance and submission also exists in, in human relations on a more social scale. So we're talking about things like this, right? This concept of intersectionality. Whether it's class or ethnicity or ability or gender or race or sexual orientation, religion, age, many, many ways in which groups have, you know, some groups are dominant and other groups are, you know, more subordinate in society. And so what we begin to examine, and this is where my cautionary tale is, is that, you know, it's impossible to teach about status in my mind without acknowledging this, but if you don't have a lot of experience training and diversity and inclusion and equity, be very careful, because these are really delicate topics and it's, it's, it can be problematic to open a door, you can't enter well, right? You can't enter the room well. So it's really important, I think, to, to create space for people to share their experiences, but teach what, what you know, I guess is, is the caution that I, that I would offer. And so if you're teaching status to a mixed group, it's not an equal opportunity phenomenon because there might be some group members who need to really learn to lower their status. And some group members that really need to learn to raise their status, if they want to operate, right? If they want, you know, if we go back to this slide, sorry, you know, ideally we want all groups to be able to span that one to 13 range so they can use status behavior flexibly and intentionally. The problem is, depending on where you live in these realms, the world is not going to respond to you differently. So these days, you know, I mean, I think there's the reality that a person of color walking down the street with high status is at risk of being shot. And I don't, I don't use that glibly. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's a truth. Whereas a white person is not likely to have the same fate. So, so teaching status as if it's an equal opportunity phenomenon has to actually consider what are the roots of different groups status behavior, you know, women being told, you know, don't take up so much space. And what are the consequences of status behavior? If people step out of the comfort zone of their group's norm, what are the consequences? Both emotional and sometimes physical. So it's, it's very, very complicated. And we spend a fair bit of time on this. I'm going to stop talking for a minute and see if there are any comments or questions. There are no written ones, but if anyone wants to jump in with a verbal question or comment, then then please do so. And Bob, the webinars are up to 90 minutes. You don't have to do 90 minutes if you've prepared an hour or just over an hour. That's absolutely fine. Okay, great. Well, we'll see how we go. And, you know, I can stay on a little bit for discussion after the hour. Someone's going to jump in, please. You need to unmute yourself if you know how to do that. If not, I'll do it for you. Here we go. No, I was saying goodbye. I have to go. Thank you for being here. Thank you for this webinar. I appreciate it. Yeah, great to see you. Bye. So it's, it's very complicated and it's very confusing because we'll often use individuals to challenge group norms. So often, let's say when I teach about gender, and I, I present a statistic that globally, you know, men are still paid, you know, significantly more than women, right? It's the fact that statistical fact and somebody will always say, yeah, but what about Oprah? You know, so they will use the sort of the example that defies the norm as a way to challenge the norm. So we have to actually hold both. Well, yes, Oprah is a woman on that very extreme end of the bell curve who makes more than most men, but it doesn't change that as a, as group, as aggregate descriptions of two group differences and comparisons that overall men are still paid more than women. So we have to be careful not to let, so we don't want to compare groups and create, you know, firm stereotypes, but we also don't want to let individual examples challenge the group norm differences that do exist, if that makes sense. So we think about status behavior and how our membership in these different groups that have more or less power shows up. And I'm doing a lot of work on gender right now in organizations and it's really amazing how many women are now coming forward in high, high level organizations saying, you know, they're, they're high level executives and high level organizations and still how conditioned they are to be reluctant to speak, for example, take up space. And that's conditioning and that's status behavior. So it's, it's really deep work and it's, and it's ongoing work. Any more comments or questions before I move on? Yes. You've got Bob, I am loving this webinar from Jackie. And you've got a tweet that Patrick Shorts has identified. Patrick, can you jump in and read that? Please. I'm sorry, I was muted. I was muted. So the tweet says, leadership is not about controlling others. Leadership is about lifting others. So there is an intersection here and this is not directly connected to what you're speaking about right at the moment, but sort of as an overall thing that with all the junk on Twitter that that would come across while I was on this webinar is pretty amazing to me. Yeah, that's awesome. And that's why, you know, in my definition, I use the word influence, not control. So we can influence in all kinds of ways, right? We can influence with our, we can influence by lowering our status behavior. Like if I get really quiet in a classroom. And you've got a couple of comments. Machiavelli would have had a few thoughts on that, says Angelina. Roberto says, as a coach, I see what you're saying about women still feeling shy of taking up space in meetings and speaking up. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, and when I think back to that tweet, Patrick, that, you know, leadership can be about what was the word supporting others or elevating others? Lifting, lifting others, right? So we can lift others in a high or low status way. So that's where that intersection is so complex. Like I can try to lift somebody by saying, I know you've got this. I am cheering for you. Yay. That's kind of high status behavior on my part, but I'm still trying to lift you. Or I can say something like, you've got this and I'm, I'm waiting just to see the magic that you create. You know, so those are both ways to try to lift somebody up, but they're different status choices. And again, depending on somebody's culture, like if somebody's from a culture that tends to be lower physical status, you might bowl them over if you come in high, right? And that's, and that's where you have to understand cultural difference. You know, I have a lot of students from, I have a lot of international students and I will never forget this one day where I always, when I teach, I, you know, I, we're always in a circle. No matter what, we're going to start the class by moving the desk around and putting things in a circle. And there was this one day where I couldn't, because I was moved to a classroom where the desks, the desks were fixed in rows and we were watching a film for part of it anyway. So I said, all right, whatever. And this young Japanese woman who had sat silent the entire term was in the front row. And as soon as the discussion started, her hand went up. And it became clear that in the circle, it was much more difficult, but in the rows, which was a more traditional educational format, which was what she was more used to, and she was in the front. She was able to participate in a different way. So our ability to speak, our ability to show ourselves, our cultural background are all going to be very interrelated. And again, it can change on a dime. You move the chairs around and you see what happens. Okay. Any other comments or questions? Oh, it's almost nine. Let me see. Let me get through the rest of my slides and then. So here's an example of a cartoon we show that how we think about equity and justice is going to have a lot to do with where we are in the power structure. Right. And, you know, I see it a lot in real interaction, you know, where people from dominant groups might say, what racism? I don't see any racism. I, you know, of course you don't, because you're not the one experiencing it. And there's a comment from Jean, for those of us who speaks to what you say now, for those of us working with status from our dominant culture, upgrade our skills to better address the intersectionality. Yeah. Well, this is where again, I mean, on the one hand, I consider it so important, which is why I teach about it. On the other hand, I offer you caution not to teach things that you're not deeply, right? So, you know, not everybody is schooled in teaching diversity. I would say that you have to name it. So you have to give people permission to understand their experiences differently. Because we, if we only teach status through one lens and, you know, it's an equal opportunity phenomenon, then again, we run the risk of those more minority group members feeling like they're having a different experience and it's unsafe to share it. So I would say name it and then leave space for people to share. But, you know, you got to create the safe space to do that. But I wouldn't train directly on it unless you have that experience. But being able to look like share that there are different status comfort zones and different cultures and also talk about the fact that those comfort zones don't just derive from the group themselves, but they derive from the feedback the world is giving them. You know, women, you better not speak up too much, you know, or does a, you know, does a cultural group develop a compensatory cultural style, you know, or the groups that are louder and bigger as a defense against being subordinated or subjugated. You know, these are questions that are critical to ask. And it does not mean that every individual from the same group is going to have the same experience or embody at the same way. And so we have to make room for both group norms as well as differences within any group. It's really tricky, super tricky. Erica's asking what do you mean by not train on it directly? Well, I think it's, I think one should only train about diversity issues if one is very experienced in training on diversity. I think a lot of us, I mean, so I think it's a delicate topic and I've seen diversity trainings go bad. I've seen diversity trainings be done by people who don't actually know the topic. So I think if you're going to teach about status, my, my hope is that you name the different groups are going to have different experiences and different conditioning. But if you don't have a lot of experience training around cultural difference or diversity that you maybe bring in a partner to do that with you, or, you know, you name it, you create space for people to share their experience. But that isn't what you're specifically training about, if that makes sense. I mean, I think it just, you know, train what you know. To which Patrick has added, yes, Paxner. Partner, absolutely. There are plenty of people who are going to know things you don't. I mean, that's part of why Seymour and I came together. I didn't know what status was from this perspective at all, 10 years ago. You know, and as I said, we spent a lot of time wrestling, like what are you talking about? Because I was using the term differently. I was being, I was hearing it being used differently, even in our community. You know, again, like he's high status, he's the CEO. And we just, you know, it took us a while and his experience was not in the, you know, cross-cultural diversity world. So, you know, there was a learning curve for him as well. But, you know, we've grown together around this. Let's see what else we got. So, these are tools. And tools can be used for good or for harm. You know, I always say a hammer can be used to build a house for the homeless or it could be used to hurt someone. And we believe very strongly that we want people to learn and understand these tools for good, helping to learn to elevate others, helping to learn to lead from different status choices, learning to understand other people's behavior through a congruent cross-cultural lens, not jumping to conclusions, acknowledging impact when we've caused it, being curious, right, using the curious mindset, the growth mindset rather than assuming we know what people's behavior means. Cross-culturally, it will mean different things. And I love this quote from Alice Walker, who says, the most common way people give up their powers by thinking they don't have any. And so, in our overall framework, again, through looking at different forms of power, everybody has some sort of power. And part of our work is helping people unpack that and helping people who have more in some realms understand how to use it. And for people who don't think they have power to actually see where they do, and status behavior is one place where we have more power than we think is to use it wisely, to use it for good. Not just, you know, the good of others, but if you're on the lower end of a power dynamic, learning to save yourself, status behavior is really important for that. So, those are all the slides that I have. Oh, it's 903, yay. So, I'm happy to take questions or comments or discussion. We can open up the, let's see, if I stop sharing now, then we can see, I can see you all again. Oh, Erica's here. Hi, Erica. Are there questions or comments? No, there was only the toolbox. It's just a metaphor. I'm big on metaphors. Are there any questions or comments or thoughts about how you teach status and how you've noticed it interacting with, you know, cultural norms and other forms of social power? Well, this is Jean. I'm quite aware of, and more so, thank you for your presentation this morning of the intersectionality issue and how best to proceed and partnering is a great solution. And I have had some experience not as deep as I would like, and that's what you're suggesting is that we, this is something that needs to be discussed in order to look at status at all or have even differentiated from power. And now if you can't, if you can't talk about well or provide people an opportunity to speak to those things, the whole nonverbal communication piece is very important. But it is a wide raging river these days, more so than it was even just two years ago. Yes, absolutely. And I think what's tricky is back to that slide of invisibility, if those who have the most power are the ones who are least likely to see it, then the burden falls on those who don't to name it. And that's a burden that is sometimes unsafe or sometimes exhausting. So even in a status training, you know, I've been in status training with, you know, very skilled, wonderful people, but they were from dominant groups and did not see this dynamic as it existed outside of their world. And that's how it was taught. And other people in the room I watch sitting very silently having different experiences. And so I would assume and predict that there's as much not being said in these conversations as there is what is being said. And so part of it is creating the context in the space for people to share their very different experience about what status means and how it shows up. Thank you. Yeah. More on this at another time, I think, El. Yeah. I'll track you down. Well, please. And we're, you know, we're, we're hopefully having a AI at Northwest, you know, post conference gathering at some point soon. So stay tuned for that. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah. Any other thoughts or questions? I have a question, Barb. Yeah. What's, um, as this has become such a bigger conversation in the last few years, I'm wondering what changes you've seen in how you teach it or how people are responding? And what are you seeing happening? Well, I think it's a great question. And I think it depends on the context, right? I mean, you know, so like, let's say me too is everywhere, right? It's happening in the improv world and the theater world. I'm doing a lot of work in the advertising world right now. I think one of the things that's changed is the permission to speak about it openly. And for people in positions of power to, whether they want to listen or not, they actually have to listen. So I think that's one of the things that's really changing is that things that people in more non-dominant groups have been feeling for a long time. There's finally more space and more safety to name it. So that's, that's one thing. And that's a beautiful thing, in my opinion, because it really elevates the conversation to a place where things can change, because it's only going to be people with institutional power that can fundamentally, you know, institutionalize or create policy change in ways that people who would not have the power cannot. So I think that's, that's one of the things. And I also see a culture shift where people who are motivated to be awake around these kinds of things, it's not always painless and it's not always easy, but I've seen amazingly wonderful people from dominant groups in all kinds of ways, like having very strong reflective experiences that create insight for their own behavior and without it being a blame and shame phenomenon. And I think part of good diversity work does not reside in the world of blame and shame, because, you know, as I said, we're all born into this world, into the bodies we're born into and the places we're born into. We didn't create these structural chasms, but it's what we're going to do with it that I think forces us to be awake and create choice. And I think some of the training that has happened over time leaves the people we need at the table running from the table. So I think we all need to be at the table. You know, we need white people to be at the table on race, we need men to be at the table on gender, we need able-bodied people to be at the table around issues of disability. We need that, not to speak for people who are having different experiences, but to be allies, to be partners, to use their power for good, right? So for the groups and individuals who have certain kinds of institutional power to use it to elevate and create space for others. Yeah, the thing I've seen in our community that changed is they used to have these talking circles on race and racism or something, and they still do them occasionally, but now they have this separate program that's just for white people. So they just pull those people out because they were actually having problems running these circles because they couldn't get, like, they couldn't get enough, you know, people who weren't white to be in them. So they just decided to like, there's so much benefit of just pulling them, separating that. Yeah, so it's both, and I think we need it all. I mean, I think in mixed race groups, you know, people of color, right? They're exhausted trying to explain it to white people, right? You know, it's what they've done their whole lives. So there needs to be, you know, what we call affinity groups where people can talk to people with their own experience and to learn. White people have different things to learn than people of color around race, of course. And I think eventually also to the degree that people are willing to sit down with each other, it's a different kind of learning when we can hear from each other in compassionate and safe ways. And that, you know, I wasn't, yeah, I meant to build on it, like even more, it's like, now they're sort of pulling out the dominant groups and doing like, we're gonna do some pre-work with you. And then like, after that pre-work, then they like, put the groups together. So building on that, we need the dominant culture, whatever it is in the room, we need them listening, we need them, make their, where the change is going to happen. Absolutely. And my guess is in groups like that, they're not really teaching anything about status behavior, right? So they're teaching more about the social issues. So kind of like what we have are two worlds, maybe the improv or applied improv world that might be teaching about status only, or the diversity world that might be teaching about social dominance only. But I think our unique contribution is actually looking at these things together, right? Because I think it's a critical piece to what's happening between groups of people. That's a very powerful way to frame it. Yeah. Right? Like we have these systematic things, what's going to bridge that are going to be our behavioral changes and how we can relate to each other. Right. You know, we can only make certain choices in our own daily worlds, right? I can't stop racism, but I can choose my interactions. Sorry, my dog wants out of the house. Are there other, and you know, we learn a lot from animals. Are there other questions or comments about all of this? And Sima was really sorry he couldn't join and we will do something else again, hopefully. Yes, Barb, in addition to your wonderful deck of cards, can you suggest some improv exercises that a person could do in a beginning workshop on the topic? When you say the topic, the topic of status. Yes. Who was that who was speaking? That was Jackie. Oh, hi Jackie. Oh, yeah, I see your, I see your phone, not your. Yes, sorry about that. Well, yes, so one of the things that we do again, and it depends on the group, right? Because, you know, it's good to take the pulse of the group. And unless you're working with a group of really highly trained improvisers who have a lot of years on status, you kind of have to start at the beginning. Because a lot of people will not understand the concept. And even people who understand the concept, it's still complex. So we'll do something very simple, like, you know, many people use just regular card decks of or having people sit by the month of their birthday. So, you know, January is lowest status, December is the highest physical status, just have people sit in their chairs and then maybe interact from that position. So that's a very low threat way where you're not asking people to embody their own status behavior, right? They have to step into something and then you'll often get people saying, oh, that was uncomfortable. So lower status people having to embody higher status or vice versa, what happened in the interaction? So that's a very, very basic one to demonstrate physical status. Often we have people do like walks in front of the room, like give people two cards, give people a king, give people a five and have them just as if they're crossing down a sidewalk, you know, see what happens. And then simply change the status card and see how the story changes, right? So very, very, very basic ways for people to demonstrate status. We have an exercise that we often do in workshops that intersect positional rank and status behavior. So we'll have people in groups of let's say three or four. And depending on the context, we have them, you know, create a scenario, maybe it's a meeting, this usually it's useful to attach a goal to the meeting, like they have to choose whose project is going to get put forward for the grant funding, you know, something like that, whatever. And so they each have a, and you can use this with, you know, our card deck or regular cards, they each have a rank. So maybe you have the highest, you know, the, so the picking order in terms of actual positional rank. And then everybody has a different status card and you have them interact. And then at some point in the, and you have people in groups of three or four, so everybody's doing it. And at some point, you either ring the bell or you just yell switch and people move their status card to the right. So everything stays the same. The interaction stays the same. The story stays the same. The rank that they have stays the same. But the only thing that changes is their status behavior. And they carry on exactly where they left off. And you do this three or four times. So they all get to experience the different status choices. And then you have them debrief as a group and then debrief as a whole group. What did they experience? And they will almost always say that actually what had more influence was the status behavior and not the rank. Now in real life, we'll see how that plays out because, you know, ultimately somebody with high rank can pull rank, but they get to really experience very directly how powerful their status choice is. If we're training around issues of culture and diversity, we will also play with that layered with some of the cultural issues, but that kind of takes a longer lead up to make it safe enough to do that. Those are some examples. Thank you. Awesome. I love hearing examples. For that one, is it like everyone can see the rank card, but only they can see their status card? Yes. So the things we do when we play is what would typically be visible, we make visible. So everybody knows everybody's rank in most situations, except if you're at the grocery store and you're a general, but you're wearing your civilian clothes and people don't know your rank. So sometimes we play things differently depending on the context. So whatever is actually going to be typically visible, we ask people to play visibly. And yes, the status behavior is not visible in the card, but it's visible in your behavior. Some of the other concepts we play with are confidence, which is not necessarily visible, and social currencies, which I guess would be for a different webinar. A couple of things from Dinnaker. One is about planning a meeting to exchange some exercises on this topic. I would mention that on Thursday, starting the same time as this session started, wherever you may be. So same time start on Thursday, we have an AIN social, which is a non-agended meeting if whoever wants to show up. And you can bring something like that as an issue or a question to the group, and that we'll likely get dealt with, or anything else. So plug for Thursday, same time. Do you have reading tips? Yeah, I see that. Well, if you haven't read Keith Johnstone's chapter on status in his book in Pro, it's critical reading. What's interesting is, there's not a lot from my perspective written about this, and that's, we're writing actually about it, but we're slow. I think, I'm trying to think off the top of my head, I'm not thinking about kind of the diversity piece that's like the reading I would recommend to everybody. I mean, certainly Robin D'Angelo's book on white fragility is critical reading for anybody, any white person who wants to understand how to engage with diversity issues right now. But there's very little written about status work and cultural norms, which is why we're writing about it. But yes, I think if other people have good articles or recommendations on status reading, please share them. That would be no. Well, there we go. Well, I have one recommendation that is just like a post on Facebook, but someone was like, hey, because, you know, people in dominant groups are often like, how do I find out? Like, how do I find out what's going on? And the simple recommendation, Facebook or Twitter, if you're a man, follow up with you. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. It was just a simple like recommendation that if you want to understand a community that you're not part of, follow social media and follow like 50 people in that group and say nothing and just watch and listen. Sort of a DIY approach. Right. Right. So there's this philosophy that, you know, non-dominant groups shouldn't be responsible for educating people in dominant group. And yet, there's also that dilemma, but I want to learn. So how do I learn? Well, there are ways to educate ourselves, right? And read and listen and engage in, you know, websites and social media and literature and art. And there are plenty of things already out there that require the person who needs to learn to do the work, to do the emotional labor, not the people from the non-dominant group to be up there teaching. And, and there might be times when somebody from a non-dominant group wants to share. And that's their choice. Right. And then if that's the case, then our job is to listen. Oh, great. Thank you. Another good book. Oh yeah, Ta-Nisi Coates, Between the World and Me. Yeah, my brain isn't working. It's too early. And I haven't, I've only had one coffee between the world and me. You know, and it's, and it's about anything, right? It's about race. It's about religion. It's about gender, you know, it's about any place where we reside in the dominant world that we have to understand their people having a different experience than us. You know, I just came back from Santa Fe, where I was for a month at an artist residency and was such a gift and such an opportunity. And there was, it was a particular month where people with disabilities had gotten a special grant and there were three out of the 11 of us were in wheelchairs in this cohort. And it was such an amazing experience and humbling to learn just from living with these people, because we were living all together, what their lives were like. You know, I would not have understood a lot of that as aware as I'd like to think I am, you know, on a daily basis, like the plates around the upper shelf and the institutes didn't think about that, right? That kind of thing. So there are so many ways that we have to increase our awareness around issues that are not our own, if we want to be good allies. Barb, hi, Rita. Hi, from Peru. Hi, how are you? I had an amazing, I had an amazing example teaching status. I put them, let's say in a dominant position and make them do an example that was destructive and not constructive. And the guys started harassing the girl, harassing like sexually. And he was like, I don't know what I did, but I was tempted to do this. So I finally realized that there was like a very thin line in being dominant and destructive, not not actually not only verbally, but with the whole gestures and things. And yeah, it was kind of a status and rank situation. No, well, this role. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great example of status behavior, positional rank and social privilege, those three intersecting, right? That's the Me Too movement right there. Yeah, all right. Yeah. So that came up and it lead to a huge discussion and we started like discussing the whole workshop about that sample. Yeah, it was very touching. Yeah, it's really, it's heavy. And again, we make choices all the time when we train that, you know, on the one hand, it can be so instructive and yet on the other hand, it can tip very easily into a safe unsafe zone. And so we have to, you know, we just have to watch for that all the time. In those cases, and they also asked me in those cases, if because they set up this situation that they were, let's say, in the, in the basement of an office, finding some archives and things, and this, this happened, what will be like the, like the easiest way to come out of that situation, because this woman is like, let's say in a situation where she could be hit, raped. And so how could you, I mean, they came with that and with that questions. And I say, you should like paraphrase what the guy is saying, and then say, please, we are like coworkers, don't do this. And oh, if you do this, then I will tell human resources. And yeah, but it was a very difficult situation that they put in. And I, yeah. And I had a hard time. This was a real situation that happened, or it was a no, no, no, it was all all made up, but it worked so organically. And it was so like, okay, this thing can happen. Well, it's interesting. Yeah. That's very heavy. And I think it's really dangerous territory, because I think we can't, again, it's not formulaic. You can't say, well, if you do this, then that will happen, because we never know what's inside the hearts and the minds of a potential perpetrator. I'm thinking of a Augusto Boal workshop I went to with Adrienne Jackson, where we played like a forum theater around very much that kind of scenario, where people tried different things to see what would happen to unlock the oppression. And I'd say tread very lightly in those stories. If it's, you know, because you don't know who's in that room, you don't know who has already been assaulted, you know, right, who is already feeling unsafe, right? So I would say tread very lightly and, you know, back away from those kinds of things, unless it's so front and center that it has to be dealt with. And I, and I think there is no easy answer. But I would mind if you do whatever you feel like you need to do to get out there, maybe you, you know, lower your status to get out, maybe you raise your status to get out. I would be very cautious to try to give people advice about that situation. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're pretty much at the end of our time. Any, maybe we have one word going around, just one word closing for everybody. And I'll start and then I'll just pick someone and then you can pick someone. I will say grateful. And I will pick somebody that says GK. I don't know who you are, but what's one word you want to share in closing? Hi, Barbara. It's Jackie. Oh, that's you, Jackie. Okay. Super helpful. Okay. You can pick someone. Diana. Oops, you're muted. You're still muted. Yes. Oh yeah. Sorry, I was talking while I was still muted. I was saying word to word for scheduling my birthday dinner was really helpful. Thank you. And I would nominate Erica. All right. I would say one word appreciative. I send it to Angelina. And I nominate Roberta. You're muted. You're muted. We can't hear you. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You can type it into. Okay. Do you want to pick someone? Jean. Jean, you've been chosen. Thank you. I appreciate being chosen. Expansive, I would say is a word that's coming up for me. You want to pick someone? Who is this with the four pictures, Elle Hurst? It's Lisa. My word would be insightful. And I choose Rita. My word would be and lightning. Okay. I will choose Shaila. Shaila. Has she been picked? No. Shaila. Maybe not. Then I will choose Paul. Thank you. I'm going with dynamic. And we're going to close the webinar. Did we hear from everybody, Angelina? Yes, there's a last word. And we've got helpful from Angelina. So, yes, echoing all those words. Thank you very much indeed, Barb. Thank you all. See no sense of regrets. Thanks everyone for participating. This will be available when it's been processed and will appear on the AI and YouTube channel. So you can watch it again and recommend it to your friends. And on Facebook, in the presidential bulletins and LinkedIn channels, you'll see notifications of future webinars, both the big topic ones and the social ones. They're also listed on the AI and website. So please send in any suggestions you have about the topics you'd like to hear and see or even lead. And look forward to seeing you on those. I'm going to end the recording now.