 And how the role reversal changes our democracy's name of our show today on Take Two, American Issues Take Two, but it goes beyond that, I'll explain in a minute. So we have our esteemed special guest, Jeff Portnoy, and welcome to the show, Jeff. Thank you. We have my co-host, Tim Apichella, hi, Tim, and Stephanie Stoll Dalton, our regular contributor here on American Issues Take Two. Thank you for joining us. So we started out with the notion that we're going to look at Roe v. Wade the reversal and how it affected this country, socially, economically, and legally, and how it will affect the country going forward. But since we looked at that, there have been more developments. And if you were wondering whether the Supreme Court and the Clarence Thomas was interested in doing more along his very conservative lines, the answer is being revealed. And now we find, even in the last couple of days, we find other cases that they've decided and are taking to decide that are very scary, maybe not as scary as Roe v. Wade, but in some ways more scary. So let's look at the scariness, OK? Tim, how scared are you about not only Roe v. Wade and the reversal, but what else that reveals to us about the intentions of this very special Supreme Court? I am worried. And as of today, I mean, another recent decision with the Supreme Court regarding the limitation of the EPA and other agencies, other federal agencies. And what I'm starting to get a hint at is almost this preordained political path that certain justices are starting to follow. And I don't know if it's they're relying on their conservative Catholic background and that's starting to win the day in their decisions. It seems that way, starting to look that way, particularly when Clarence Thomas says he's going to address contraceptive pills and gay marriage and gay relationships. You know, we didn't envision that our Supreme Court justices would start using religion as a basis of their decision making and it's starting to look that way. So to answer your question briefly, yes, I'm very worried. But, you know, Jeff, what has happened to embolden them this way? They really seem to be on an increasing care. Am I right? Well, I don't think it should come as any surprise. I mean, what they've done in the last couple of weeks was clearly predictable. A year ago, when these appointments were made, Amy Barrett was just the last guarantee that all of these things were going to happen and will continue to happen. I know some people won't be happy to me. I think the country is too preoccupied with Roe versus Wade. I think it's a very important issue, abortion. But in the scheme of our government and our future, it is not outweighed maybe, but equal to everything else that's going on in our country, whether it's the separation of church and state or the lack thereof, the taking away the powers of administrative agencies, putting elections in the hands of state legislatures, we can go on and on and on. And frankly, those of us who were younger in the Earl Warren days and through the 60s and 70s, just better get used to it because this country is in a 180-degree reversal on political, social, and moral issues. I knew, Stephanie, how concerned are you? Well, I am concerned, but I am also... I have some confidence that this can't hold, as all of our... Unless a bomb hits the court, what is your option? Well, hey, hey, we're down one Catholic, okay? Because that's just... Longy just came on, okay? So we've got more Southern Americans. But the thing is that we're up... This is haulingly offensive and against our principles that are written down and are embedded in all of our documentation that's the foundation for the way we govern. So I'm very concerned and disturbed. And obviously, other people are too, because the vast men by the tens of thousands are running for vasectomies. I mean, there are things that are happening on the ground stuff in response to this, to try and keep their life together in some normal way, as they've had it before. But yeah, hopefully, the hearings are also leaking out and that it looks like we're getting some changes in the numbers that show that people may be thinking about things again. And perhaps the vote will be the trick. Yeah, leaking out is a dispositive term, Tim. You know, there are rumors to the effect that Clarence himself leaked the Samuel Alito draft opinion in order to set up a sequence. And these guys, you know, arguably are playing with the public to try to achieve a certain sequence of issues and cases. And I wanted to ask you, doesn't it seem interesting that you have one case after the other all within a short period of time? It's like you can't tell which case you should be more outraged. Like Jeff said, the outrage is flooding us right now and in a very rapid sequence. Do you think the court thinks about the way they are affecting public opinion and the likes of the Democratic contingent? Well, I think Alito basically stated, you know, the public be damned. I don't care when it came to his Roe v. Wade comments. And I don't think they're in for life. And I don't think they care about polling. I think you refer reference to polling. And it was inconsequential to what the polling numbers were. Well, fine. But you still have a duty to your oath and the mission of the Supreme Court is not to follow your personal religious convictions, but to look at the Constitution as a whole. And I guess humans will be humans. And maybe that's what's taking place. But I do know one thing, bad things come in threes. And we're going to have three really bad decisions. And two more yet, well, one more yet to come. Because the ruling against the EPA's ability to limit greenhouse gases and the impact on federal agencies, that's number two. And so more to come. Well, aside from the general reaction of the country, of right-thinking people in the country, to the bizarre things the Supreme Court has been doing, including the recusal issue of Proclarence Thomas, let's break it down. Let's go around the table with us guys and girls and break it down. Let's talk about the Sullivan law in New York, which was the first of the current trilogy, if you will. What effect does that have on New York? New York has had the Sullivan law for 100 and some odd years. New York does have a problem with guns. Arguably, the Sullivan law has helped in dealing with that. What happens if you take away the Sullivan law? People will carry guns. It's pretty simple. I mean, it's not, you know, none of this is complicated. It's all very, very clear. If you think things are bad now, wait till November. Because the way things look, the Republicans will take over the house easily and very likely they'll take over the Senate. So enjoy the last four months of potential freedom. It's terrible, but it's true. I can't stand it. Cheer up, things can be worse. Yeah, they will be. It's not they can be, they will be. It'll just be, just like having those assassins riding around in the car, remember when we had, what did we call them, the two guys that were in the car just shooting at everybody? What did we call them? They were terrorists. And we, you didn't know where you were gonna get shot in your head in the Costco parking lot or filling your car with gas at the shawl station. But, you know, not to get too technical, the decisions are really bad. But when you look at what they've done to precedent and started the sizes, that's what's really scale. You have a majority of the court that says, we don't care what prior Supreme courts did, they were idiots. They made up rights that don't exist. It's time to turn the country back to where it should have been before these morons sat on the court. I mean, that's essentially it. So we don't care. We don't care what the court has ruled 40 years ago or 30 years ago, or even three years ago. This is the way we're gonna put things now and now we're gonna make it right. I mean, I know I'm being very crass about it, but that's it, read Alito's opinion. You know, Jeff, I think you're spot on because for many decades, conservatives said, oh, the Warren era was a nightmare on America. And they ruled from their personal agenda versus the constitution. So I think if this is a holdover or a hangover, it would be a better term, a hangover from their animosity about the Warren era of the court. Well, you know, the Roe v. Wade reversal was really a cold bath. I mean, both in the leaked opinion and in the final, but it seems to me that the voting issue is going to be far worse in terms of its effect on the country. Tim, you wanna talk about that? State the question in a little different way, so I'm trying to get my arms around it. If they put the right to control voting in the hands of the states, what's the effect on the country? Well, no, not the states, as I told you guys, they've taken a case in which they could rule and it's likely they will or they wouldn't have taken it that voting will be in the control of state legislatures, taking it away from the courts. That's the big deal. If they rule like that. In other words, Jeff, if there's the legislature that finalizes the state- Right, and courts cannot overrule what the legislature does. Yeah, I mean, that- If they rule the way it's predicted because they've taken this case. You know, that is the removal of the check and balance system of government. Well, there isn't any. Well, I thought there was supposed to be. It's time to repack. It's the Democrats. Well, that's the court. Okay, and that's come up. I've seen that brought up on the news and I got to respond to that. And how is that going to happen when you need 60 votes? Because he's going to take down that problem. Well, I'm having this problem with my English. What, the filibuster? How is he going to take down the filibuster? Well, it's going to have to make an exception. We do this carve out is what they're saying. Yeah, well, carve out for- Well, I think you've got to talk to Joe Manchin before the carve out is even suggested. We already know where Joe Manchin is going to go on this. So, of course we do. We're not going to be able to carve it out. We're not going to be able to stop the filibuster and we're not going to be able to change what, make a legislative change to the court. We're sitting, we're, go ahead. I'm sorry, Steph. I'm sorry, I was just going to finish that off with, we do have the two senators, the main and Alaska senators, who might help us with Joe Manchin. But Joe Manchin is coming on stronger too, especially about the filibuster given. Maybe some of the Democratic senators, or frankly, what I meant to say is maybe some of the Republican senators who have now begun to indicate that they were lied to during the judicial nomination hearings will open their eyes to what's been going on in this country since Trump got elected. And it's clear that these applicants, Kavanaugh, et cetera, just blatantly lied during their confirmation hearings. I mean, it comes out in Roe versus Wade, but maybe Lisa Mikowski's learned a lesson. Jeff, I got to jump on that comment because I really think it's like catching the kid with his hand in the cookie jar. Thanks, Susan Collins and Joe Manchin knew fully what was going to happen with their nominee. They weren't lied to, they were complicit. Sorry. Okay, but I want to get a handle on the shape of a country to come. We've had a lot of press, we've had a lot of press on Roe v. Wade in the reversal from the social, from the economic, from the political point of view, the country is profoundly changed and will continue to be profoundly changed in ways that reach every citizen, everybody in the country. We're going to have two countries, Jay. We have two countries, we're going to continue to have two countries, and it's going to depend on where you live. That's the bottom line. We live, two of us, three of us live in Hawaii, and very little of what's happening is going to have impact on us living in Hawaii. Are you suggesting that people are going to move from one place to another? Yes, absolutely. Depending upon their politics, they may move in both directions. I mean, you go west of the Alleghenies and east of the Rockies, you've got a different country than the two coasts. It's absolutely clear in state legislatures in Hawaii, places like that will preserve the right of abortion and will preserve separation of church and state and gun laws to the extent they can without the federal Supreme Court trying to take over. Well, wait, wait, but the Supreme Court may very well outlaw abortion in all states and override state initiatives. Well, we have a state, that'll be an interesting thing for Hawaii where we have a state constitutional privacy protection, which is not in the federal constitution. But anyway, you're right, could get worse. But what about if they win, Republicans win the vote, then that's the first thing that will happen is that filibuster's going away and McConnell and they're gonna get a nationwide ban on abortion. So what will Hawaii do with that law coming out of the Congress? Because the Congress can make something stronger than the Supreme Court. You know what, I'm one of the people, and I'm not an expert, but I think I have an opinion that has some validity. I don't think you can make a federal law banning abortion just like I can understand the argument that you couldn't make a federal law, that you couldn't find abortion as a right in the constitution. I mean, that's a legitimate argument. I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it. I'm with you completely, I agree, but you're not on the Supreme Court just yet. And the Supreme Court is gonna be the one. Well, it's coming, it's coming. It's coming, haven't you heard? Well, I mean, this is the revamping of the 14th Amendment. So all of these civil rights, okay. So it's gonna be how they go about dismantling that Will Thomas and Alito take the lead again and draw on the witch hunters of the 17th century in Britain to help boost their argument or whatever they can do. And I don't know how they can get away with that. At some point, that's got to be disputed. And also at some point, why can't these people, these Supreme Court justices who lied at their hearings, can't we move against them? Is that a Justice Department? Oh, no, let's take that for a moment, dude, it would have to be impeached, wouldn't it? Not at all, impeached, right? Okay, and we have to get that through Congress, don't we? Yes. Just like a presidential election. We haven't been good at impeachments, you know. If two senators could help us there, okay, that have, you know, they besmirched themselves. If the brothers Grimm were still alive, maybe they could write a story about a impeach. Hey, Jay, I want to go to something that Jeff said, you know, about the, you know, we're going to have two nations here. And I wish it was as simple. I mean, if that's true, and I think Jeff's right, we're moving in that direction. I think we're already in a cold civil war. But if that's true, then I wish it would be as simplistic as blue states versus red states, but it's not, I think it's urban centers versus rural America. And that really complicates the division amongst Americans. You know, I don't want to overstate it, but we're very close to pre-civil war. Yeah, I think, oh, Jeff, you're dead on. The country was divided in half on slavery, a single issue. Now the country is divided on multiple issues equal to the division during slavery, but you're right, it's urban versus rural. Well, doesn't that suggest that moving to another state may not solve the problem? That, you know, if it's happening in your city, there are no geographical, no significant geographical divisions, and therefore what happens, violence, don't you think? Yeah, well, I'm looking at Austin and Texas. I mean, they're a bastionum to themselves. They're surrounded. Yeah. They're going to build a moat. That's what they need to do. A moat on his back. Yeah. Well, where is it that they're going to get tired of these prescriptions on their lives? Okay, so the Massachusetts Bay colony was not a real one place to live, okay? So all of this, all of this abortion problem is coming back on them as much as it is on everybody else and the predominance of the church precepts to come down upon all of us. Will that not? So do all of those people on the Republican side really want to live under that? I mean, are they looking for a win or... I've said this before on multiple of these shows, folks, but you got to blame the voters. We're focused on the Supreme Court. It's the voters who have put in the legislators in these 26, 27 states that have passed these anti-abortion bills. It's not the Supreme Court. It's the voters. Well, let me add a point, though, Jeff. But my point is that's why there's two countries. There are voters in more than two-thirds of the country who put people in power that have voted for the lack of separation of church and state, who have voted for no abortion, who have voted to overturn the election, et cetera, et cetera. It's you and me. It's not you and me in Hawaii, but it's you and me in Idaho. Well, Tim is probably going to tell you that a lot of that has to do with Mr. Trump. Well, yes, of course, he was the band leader, but yes, the music continues and it's all off key. Meredith Wilson, Meredith Wilson could rewrite the music, man. I mean, you know, that's what happened. Yeah. I saw that last week in New York, but let me... Hang on, I want to catch a point here. And that is, you know, Joe Biden got kind of clobbered with criticism about his kind of tepid response to the reversal of Roe v. Wade. Well, today he's going exactly to Jeff's point. You better get out there and vote because that's the only real solution to this issue. He goes, I'm just the executive power here. I can't do anything on executive orders. You've got to change it at the ballot this March, I mean, this November. And I don't know if that message is going to translate. He's not the best communicator in the world. And he's certainly not the most inspirational, but that is the solution. Well, that's the solution. Is that going to work, Stephanie? Is he going to get people to vote? Is he going to get people to reverse Roe v. Wade? Well, this goes back to your very first question about how we're feeling about what's coming on. And I, yes, I'm concerned, but I'm also hopeful because he's fading. He's fading fast. I think it's an important question we should discuss. You know, where is this going? If you asked me, you know, a few weeks ago, after that leaked opinion, where the Supreme Court was going, I said, okay, it's very likely that it's going to reverse Roe v. Wade. Okay, what I didn't anticipate is the sequence of the Sullivan law and the EPA case now coming on the voting case. I mean, what we have is a pattern, man. And the pattern, she seems to be getting worse the pattern. So, I mean, is there a possibility that the country will recognize the errors of its ways? Is there a possibility that Clarence Thomas will wake up one morning and say, gee, I've been wrong. And the rest of them, I've been wrong. They'll change their minds or go further into a hole on this. Jeff, do you think there's hope for Mudville? No. I mean, you know, it's a simple answer. The court is what it is. And they're young. You and I will be buried in long gone before there's a chance that all these things will change. It'll be 20 years from now. Maybe when the Democrats, I don't know if it'll ever happen, can reposition the court and take back a majority so that they can fill the court with new justices. This is the Federalist Society. They've been working on it for 25 years. And let's face it, they have totally succeeded. We have all been beaten, frankly, the Democratic Party, the liberals, all these liberal packs, everybody else, they have been destroyed and they are gonna have to figure out, and I don't know how, in the near future, to change what is now a very conservative court that has been licking itself, hoping that it can overturn everything that's occurred in the last 30 years. That's my view. I know it's pessimistic. Somebody tell me where I'm wrong. No, you're not wrong, but I think we should examine, we should examine the three areas of effect, okay? The first one is socially, Tim. How is the country gonna change if what Jeff expects will happen, social? It might be through demographics. And to his point about certain people will be long buried, that's a demographic issue. You may have Gen X, you may have the millennials and Gen Z bring their social agenda to the voting booth. I don't know, but that's 20 years. Jeff's right, that's a long way down the road. What you've had though as a president, Trump specifically was able to use social wedge issues, specifically white fear and white replacement as a catalyst to get these things in motion. And people aren't voting on platforms and issues and where the party is, they're voting on their fear. And Donald Trump instilled fear like no politician has done since Huey Long and quite good at it. Can't we do something about it? I suppose you can make the argument that socially we're gonna wind up in violence because nobody will agree and it'll affect everyone and we'll all be on different sides. Well, there's 400 million guns out there, it's gonna happen one way or another. Yes, that's probably it. Before that, why can't this president take some strong steps? I'm frankly disappointed in Obama never figured out a way to Trump McConnell on the last Supreme Court justice that they had to take in. So can Biden show us a first step that'll knock down those dominoes that are all lined up? What can he possibly do? Well, okay. To change the rules. Wait, wait, I hear you. What can he possibly do to change the rules of the Senate? Let's start with that. All right, fill it faster. What would LBJ do? LBJ didn't have a whole bunch of people running over, saying, yeah, get on with that civil rights stuff, you know? He called him up and he did his duty. He brought them on. LBJ was a caterpillar tractor. Biden is a trowel, a garden trowel. Well, he's gotta change. He's gotta get in there and make, quote, some deals. Well, maybe it goes back to the judge or the candidate you mentioned, Merrick Garland. So Jeff, let me ask you, can't Merrick Garland do something about some of this? I mean, we haven't heard much from him, I think you'll agree. But query, if he were, if you were running the Department of Justice, could you do anything about this? About what? What? What's this though? I hear you, Jay, but what's this? Can't change the court. What's this? You mean, and died Trump? I don't know. I mean, that's the only issue that's out there now and voting and voting. Those are the two Justice Department issues, right? Voting rights and indicting Trump. Right. Okay, but the filibuster is out there for the president to do something about. And I'm sure there's some other things he could do. Let me go back. I gotta talk to you about one thing you mentioned about Merrick Garland. And it's obvious to me what's happened. You know, in corporate America, CEOs tend to pick people, and this is true for a lot of organizations, you tend to choose personalities that are like your own. And in the case of Biden picking Merrick Garland, Milktoast selects Milktoast. And I'm just saying he picks someone who is weak and ineffective. And that's what Merrick Garland is. That's why Merrick Garland was chosen by Obama to be acceptable to the GOP because he wasn't aggressive. Because he was, I hate to say it, Milktoast. Well, who has the power now? Who do we have in place in a position, that executive position, who has the most power? It's Biden. Wait. Come on, is it the president? Let me go to sort of a final round here and ask you, if these decurrence things are happening, and if they come to a conclusion the way, you know, that the conservatives want them to go, what kind of a country are we going to have? So let me ask Jeff first, legally speaking, seems to me that our civil rights are in great jeopardy. We're going to have a country, we're going to have a country, and we do have a country, and we're going to have more of this controlled by white, male, Protestant slash Catholics, who live outside of cities. That's America for the foreseeable future. Hey, wait, wait, what about the law? What about it? The law of civil rights, the law of preventing corruption, the law of, you know, equal fair treatment, all that. That was nice when it existed. I enjoyed it. I say go to the depression in 1929 to 32 in Chicago, that kind of justice. Yeah, well, that's a fair chance. Get your pitchforks, get your pitchforks ready. One more effect now, and I'm zooming back a little. Take all this that's happening, what about our economy? And we have issues about inflation. We have issues about, you know, prices that have increased because of the Putin war in Ukraine. But what about our economy in general? I suppose there's other questions too, but that seems to be right at the front end. So Stephanie, what about our economy if these things happen? Well, the president doesn't control the economy and neither does the Congress. So that's got to be, that's going to play, that's a global issue. There are many, many variables in that. So we're going to come out of it, of course. I mean, the treasury, the 30 year treasury is the best thing the world's got yet. So haven't seen anybody come up with something better. So we'll get out of this. I just think that it's a soft time because we're making inroads on that Trump control. We got the drip out, the leaking out from the January 6th. We got some stuff to do. We need to change these states and the numbers of senators they have too. And that's another part of the Senate that's a problem, is that that's a minority ruling Senate. I mean, 30% of the people of the country are being represented by the people that can make decisions. I know we're running out of time, but before we got on, you guys were talking about Liz Cheney. Yes. Come the middle of November, Liz Cheney will be doing podcasts. Because she's not going to have anything else to do. So I mean, what else do you need to know? What the Republican Party is? I mean, so there's- She's got a ton of money. She's got a ton of money in her. She's got- She's way behind already. She's done. She's done. We admire her, but she's turned out. She's done. I could be her if I ran in that state. Well, what about if she ran for president, guys? Well, and what about that? Okay, she's got the name. Which party? The new third party? Which party? She's not a Democrat, or is she- No, she can't be a Democrat. She could go for- The party of Ross Ferro. In a Democrat's vote for her. Okay, okay. Democrats would vote. We're going to go around for less comments now with summarizations. And Stephanie, you go first, and you see if you can deal with the questions that Jeff has raised about your optimism. Well, I'm just asking people to go to work on this, and do it. Take what they can manage to- The power they can wield and make it happen. There are too many people in the history of our country in these executive positions that have had lots of things they did. Let's do it, Biden, and all the rest of you with that kind of power. Most of them have a powerful thing in the world. Thank you so much for us. All right, Jeff, now can you tell us how you really feel? You know, the only possibility is at the ballot box, and the voters and the public have got to make sure that they have the right to vote, and they vote the way that we've been talking about. But I'm telling you the truth, because I think the truth is in the reality. Voters in two thirds of the states are not voting, Jay, the way the four of us would vote in their jurisdictions. But that's the only way. So people are going to have to go to the ballot box, take over state legislatures, keep taking mayor's races, win the governorships, which they're unable to do. The Republicans are dominating all of government at the moment, and maybe Roe versus Wade, which I think really is not the most important issue in the world, but it may be the most galvanizing issue to help things achieve that we want at the ballot box. Reminds me of that website called runforsomething.org and organized by a woman named Litman. But let me ask you, suppose it doesn't work yet, what kind of a country have we got? We got borders with Canada and Mexico, pretty easy to move. I mean, we have... We have... You know, I mean, I'm sorry I being glib about it. I mean, we have a country that we don't want at the moment. Mexico won't let us in. Yeah, we have a big reverse immigration problem. They'll be fighting to keep us out. That's what it goes. You're unthinkable. Okay, closing for you, Tim. Oh my gosh, how do I even begin? You know, I'll go back to your comment about the economy and its effect. I'm worried that the economy and particularly inflation and the shrinking power of the dollar for a lot of Americans would be the spark for a desert dry forest of social grievances. And I worry about those social grievances that are right under the surface. And Donald Trump has really exploited so well. And if he gets back on the podium and to the public microphone, he'll be right back at it again. And I'm worried this time, we'll see some serious eruptions. And to your point, Jay, we'll see some violence in the street. Okay, well, thank you all. Tim Appeteller, my co-host, and my partner, our special guest, Stephanie Stolt-Dolton, our special contributor. And now our show is over and I am going to go and stoke my head. Aloha, you guys.