 Welcome, everyone, to another crisis conversation live from the Better Life Lab. We're delighted to have you here with us today where we're talking about being pregnant, navigating pregnancy through COVID-19. But beyond that, really looking at the health of pregnant mothers, pregnant workers, how they fare in the workplace, and what we need to do to ensure their health and safety, as well as their ability to continue working if that's what they need and choose to do, not only during the crisis, but beyond. So today we've got just a wealth of wonderful people who can share stories and also share their expertise. We've got Cush Bouchard, she's the interim director and director, excuse me, interim editor-in-chief of the Fuller Project, which is a global nonprofit newsroom dedicated to objective groundbreaking reporting on women and everyone should subscribe to their newsletter. It's amazing. Rebecca Ponticus, she's the principal of Ponticus Law LLC, who specializes in caregiver and pregnancy discrimination cases. We've got Dina Bax, a co-founder and co-president of a Better Balance, which seeks to ensure that no workers, including pregnant workers, have to choose between job, health, or family. We've got Gabrielle Kaverle-McNeill, she's the director of workforce development for new moms, an organization in Chicago that's dedicated to supporting new mothers in the core areas of life, home, jobs, and family. And we have Dr. Ashley Deutsch, she's the director of quality and patient safety for the Department of Emergency Medicine at Bay State Medical Center in Springfield, Massachusetts. And she, we're going to start with you because you're not only a medical expert at this time of a global pandemic, but you are one of the bright spots. We've been talking about pregnancy discrimination and you have a situation where you are also pregnant and you worked with your employer to find a way to, to both ensure your health and safety, the health and safety of your child, but also continue working and supporting your family. So welcome all and Ashley, Dr. Deutsch, let's start with you. So we are in the middle of a pandemic. What can you tell us about what pregnant mothers, pregnant workers are really facing in, in this pandemic for many months, the CDC was silent, we didn't really know. And then the new study came out that was really quite disturbing. Can you tell us what we know and what we don't know about navigating Corona while pregnant. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor to be a part of this discussion. What I will say is I would first of all encourage everyone who's pregnant or thinks they may be at a higher risk with Coronavirus to go to the CDC's website CDC.gov. There's some good updated information there. This is one of what we know about Coronavirus and pregnancy. The answer is still not much. Our understanding is, is always changing. But it's not really clear what the impacts are, especially at the very beginning, we weren't even really sure how it was transmitted. Right, so it's, at this point, we think that there might be a higher risk of more severe illness for pregnant women. We know that there have been some newborns who have tested positive for Coronavirus shortly after birth, but we do not know if they contracted the virus before, during, or after birth. We believe the best evidence shows that it is safe for breastfeeding mothers who test positive for Coronavirus to continue breastfeeding their infants while wearing a mask and washing hands frequently and before all feeds. And that the benefit likely outweighs the risk in that case. But truly it's sort of a brand new world for medicine and certainly for pregnant women. And so it's hard for all of us to gauge what our risk is with pregnancy and Coronavirus. You know, so actually we're going to get back to you about your, your own story in a minute. But what I'd like to do is open this up, you know, let's go to Cushpusha. So Cushpoo, you have a number of reporters who have been sort of scouring scouring the earth, so to speak, for, for stories, particularly how the pandemic is impacting women and their, their experience. And some of your reporters have come, have really written some very powerful stories about not only pregnant workers but also maternal health and particularly looking at racial equity. We already know that there's just alarmingly high racial inequities when it comes to maternal and child mortality. Can you tell us about some of the, some of the, some of the stories and the reporting that you all are doing at the Fuller Project? Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Bridget. So as you mentioned, we are, that's what we have been looking at at the Fuller Project, even before Coronavirus, right, that intersection between the lack of access to, to solid maternal mortality, maternal healthcare and that linked to maternal mortality, and how it is sometimes the worst in some communities for black and brown women. And so when we saw the Coronavirus cases rising and impacting communities of color, predominantly black Americans all across the U.S., we knew that that was the first place to look, right, that's where we could really dig in and report on what we were, we knew would be a double public health crisis for women of color, right on our doorstep. And so we started off right, as Dr. Deutsch mentioned, when we didn't know a whole lot about how it would impact pregnant women. We spoke to a number of women around the country with our reporting, with our contributing reporter Eileen Guo, who spoke to women who were about to give birth, about to go to hospitals, who saw one of whom was homeless, who couldn't find diapers, who was told that her community doula wouldn't be able to support her during labor, someone she had practiced with for nearly nine months. And then when restrictions were tightest in California and no one could join her for her, for her labor. And so she faced giving birth alone, and that's what happened to her. And so I just can't, I can't imagine how devastating that's got to be for anyone. Right, and she and on top of that she had nowhere to go afterwards with with her newborn baby. And so she was facing the prospect of raising this child, you know, essentially in solitude and giving birth by herself. So, as the weeks went by, we realized that there were different threads of this continuing conversation to look at and our reporter Jessica Washington, found in Milwaukee, where a fifth of the city's coronavirus cases back then were among its black residents. And so the city's health commissioner said, she had heard anecdotally that there were upticks and miscarriages and stillbirths during the pandemic predominantly among black and brown women. And so then Jesse reported on that next step, right where she spoke to a mother of two, an essential worker at a fast food restaurant, who's making this impossible decision to leave her children in daycare where one of them had contracted coronavirus. And so she was a fast food worker, and her family relied on her money from her job at Wendy's. And so she had to make an impossible decision did she end up working and paying the bills or did she. But if she quit how would she pay the bills, but then she would leave her child in the center of this public health crisis. Right. And as a, you know, as a fast food worker. She was also one of those who was carved out of emergency paid family leave legislation. She was carved out of emergency paid sick days legislation. So it sounds like she didn't really have many options. At this point, let me turn to you, Dina. So Dina, a better balance does such amazing work, really bringing pregnancy discrimination sort of the experience of pregnant mothers into the kind of the public conversation. You, when I, when I first started learning about this several years ago I had never even heard of pregnancy discrimination it's not something that we talked about or paid attention to it was a real invisible issue. And, and so tell us about, you know, as you know the some of the women that that kush boo's reporters are writing about that that really face kind of impossible choices when they're pregnant. What is pregnancy discrimination what do pregnant workers really face in the United States before the pandemic and what are they facing now how's it making it different or worse. Sure. So, unfortunately, pregnancy discrimination, you know, after decades after passage of the federal pregnancy discrimination act in 1978 is still alive and well in this country and it takes many forms. You know, many people may be more familiar with the type of discrimination saying that you can't take adverse action you can't cut someone's hours or fire them just on the basis of the fact that they're pregnant. A form of discrimination that we see particularly with low wage workers, low income women, particularly women of color who call our helpline are women who are in low wage and physically demanding jobs. And they need a modest temporary adjustment to their work hours or duty schedules in order to maintain their health and continue earning a paycheck. So pre pandemic we've got, you know, this is a huge issue, you know, women who has a temper maybe a high risk pregnancy doctor advises no heavy lifting employer says no go home. What that means is a profound that has a profound impact on their economic long term economic quality oftentimes they wind up homeless on food stamps. And we have, you know, dozens and dozens of stories of around this which has led to passage of laws around the country to really say no, we need to ensure that pregnant workers, you know, have a clear rights to accommodation and these situations, just as workers disabilities. You know, and this is the type of bias, as I said, small balls into lasting, you know, economic disadvantage and is one reason along with supports like paid family medical leave and scheduling and quality affordable childcare that motherhood and poverty, particularly for women of color so inextricably link right it's, this is, you know, it's a driver of long term economic inequality. So at the current moment, you know, we're, it's, we are hearing from pregnant workers, you know, who are scared to death, frankly, to return to work. Because, especially those in essential jobs, but also those who just required now to be back at work. But they in many instances know that they're returning to an unsafe workplace but they feel like they have no other choice to continue working. And so I just want to underscore one thing that the doctor said earlier there is CDC guidance, but this is often an important conversation that you are going to have pregnant workers going to have with her own medical provider. It's an individualized assessment about what a pregnant workers need and it's not a one size fits all. And we provide, you know, very detailed information on a better balances website about how to ask for accommodations and there are clear protections for pregnant workers who at higher risk, like that may trigger protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act. So if you have gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, you know, that may entitled you concretely to, you know, certain, you know, enforcing rights around distancing or PPE or transfers or, you know, or in certain instances not for all essential workers, but some women may be able to telecommute. So there are rights that do exist. And so it's important that pregnant women do know the rights that Laura in the books now to help them and we have a lot of information on our website. So, you know, some of the stories that you've brought up over the years, you know, you talk about some pregnant women who needed water, or they've needed a stool to sit on instead of standing all day as a cashier. I remember working on this on a story when I was at the Washington Post about a police officer who just needed, you know, a bulletproof vest that fit those right growing body and not getting those kinds of accommodations. And really, you know, then women were made kind of put into this terrible situation where they had to choose between, you know, working in a place, you know, in a way that might impact or harm their health and the health of their child, versus being able to continue working and support their family and, you know, have have financial security. You know, at this point, let me turn to you Gabrielle and Rebecca I know we're going to get to like the legal challenges and legal cases as well. But, you know, Gabrielle with with the new moms you work a lot with women who are pregnant with who are about to deliver new moms. You know, what are you seeing, you know, you know what it comes to getting accommodations so that they're enabled, you know, they're able to keep working or they're able to get a job, you know, if that's what they if that's what they're looking for. What are you seeing now, you know, with the pandemic how is that impacting the mothers that you work with. Yeah, thank you and I appreciate being a part of the conversation. Some of the things that we're seeing and hearing on mirror those that Cushboo and Dana explained around women not knowing that they have access or not having access, delivering on their own in the hospital, because the doulas no longer able to be with them at their bedside as they're giving birth, and they give birth and then they're very fearful about going back to work about having access to childcare. In Chicago there was a kind of mass pushed to get moms the resources that they need particularly from our agency so we were you know hand delivering things like diapers and formula because we weren't able to go to their local stores and retrieve those items because they'd either been brought out or there was some looting in the area so lack of access has been an issue but it's just overwhelming feeling of fear and miseducation, not knowing that they have these workplace rights. I literally have heard women say well I didn't know I could apply for work right now because I'm pregnant or to wait until my child was at least six weeks before I could apply to start working. There's just just miseducation and misinformation out here about what their rights are and so a part of the work that we want to do is make sure that our women are armed with this with this information and that they know their rights and they know how to exert their rights and when they are going back into the workplaces there's also a safety issue. We know that they're going back to work and they're not being given the tools or the safety guidelines or following safety guidelines to keep themselves safe because they do have to go back home to their child. A lot of our women live in multi-generational households and so that is you know they're toggling that line between safety and financial security. You know when we were talking the other day one of the things that you said really struck me as well that you know that we've been talking about pregnancy discrimination or what happens when you're on the job but that some of the mothers that you've worked with they experience that before they even get the job that their pregnancy becomes part of the kind of what works against them in the hiring process. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah definitely. There is a sphere of if I go into the workplace and they see that I'm pregnant does that put me at a disadvantage for getting this job. This tone that I won't be looked at or considered because of my skills or my abilities or what I actually bring to the table but versus the barriers that I bring because I might have maternity leave or I may have family responsibilities, things that men don't have to worry about when they go into the interview process. And younger women a lot of these women is just their first job or their first you know real job is how they would explain it a lot of times and there's a fear around that. Am I going to be looked at because of you know because I'm a liability to this employer because of my responsibilities at home and just impairing them with the information that listen you have something to offer you deserve to work especially if that's what you want to do you deserve the right to have you have safety and have your children be safe and to be able to earn a living wage so you can take care of yourself and your family and so I think a lot of them are they want as much information as they can get before they see the interviewer and go into the workplace so that they know in advance. You know if they ask me this is this okay or are they allowed to ask me those questions and only those answers are no they are not but it's a matter of just knowing you know knowing what what to expect and having information that you need to be to empower yourself in those moments. Right, right. So Rebecca let's turn to you at this moment. So you are you know you're a lawyer you've specialized in pregnancy discrimination cases when things get so bad that you actually go into the legal system to try to get remedy and pregnancy discrimination caregiver discrimination. What are you seeing now are there more cases being filed you know during coronavirus how are workplaces responding what are pregnant women sort of experiencing and then let's move to like what do we do about this how we fix this but but talk a little bit about kind of the legal landscape out there. So thank you for having me on I always love to have conversations with you and it's great to be with everybody who's been talking so far. At first, I told people when they were asking me it like back in March I said wait, I said it just hang on, it's going to come and it's sort of like sad that's sad. Well, and I knew this was going to happen because what I was hearing from people was this employer attitude that all bets are off because of COVID. Well that would be wrong employees and I said this at the time I said remember employees still have rights, whether it's the new law that was passed by Congress immediately or the laws that were already passed such as pregnant accommodation you know pregnant workers fairness acts we have with Dean has helped we passed one in Massachusetts but these were all still in effect, and coronavirus didn't wipe them out or wipe out obligations. But that's not how a lot of employers were acting in Massachusetts we had a very high profile case of a nurse, Dr. George probably has heard about it. I mean, I think there was a person in Springfield who it appeared from the reporting there wasn't even a conversation with her about accommodating her, or whether that was even possible and the law in Massachusetts requires it so there should have at least been a conversation with her about it, but that wasn't had. So I would go back to this idea that I think Gabrielle put it really well that pregnant workers are a burden on the workplace, and this is their problem there are burden here, and it's not our problem for what has to happen you either choose to be pregnant or you choose to go home. And so that's why we passed these laws. So I would say that what we're seeing is what's that expression new wine and old skin or something like that. It's the same same old same old pregnant workers are a burden, and a lot of employers want to try to get rid of them as quickly as possible. There was a report I read of a case you told me about Bridget in California. The worker announced that she was pregnant and same old playbook, they started giving her the worst jobs the hardest jobs she had to lift 50 pounds and when people tried to help her they were told they were ordered not to. And, you know, she sought accommodations because of coronavirus and they instead sent her to sanitize so they put her in closer contact with the virus. And then they fired her and said her performance was poor. So, you know, it's, that's that's the same old playbook. There's not too much new about that. And I wanted to make one last comment. It's something shubu said, which was the about the impossible decisions. Yeah. And what we have to remember is that the general default rule in America is something called employment at will, which gives people very, very few rights like really no rights at all. And pregnant workers fairness acts are very important because they actually give you some rights and the pregnancy non discrimination act gives you some rights, but the way the legal system works is that the employer can act. And then the worker has to fight to get the rights back. And where you have in, especially with women in low wage jobs that don't have health insurance that have no unions. And that's a really tough position to be in. You know, telling a low wage worker well it's okay you know and that's okay but you know if they fire you have a lawsuit. Great. That's not what she wants what she wants is a job she wants the money to pay her bills and you know. So, I think that's all it's all important to think about those things together because that's why these impossible decisions are being forced on pregnant workers. I just want to turn back to you, Dr do it. So, so actually, so we've heard that so many women, particularly women in lower wage positions women without a lot of power, really experience, you know, some of these, you know, it unreasonable experiences that really put them forcing them to forcing them to make impossible choices with this notion that somehow a pregnant worker is a lesser worker or a less desirable worker which as we all know is not true. So talk about your own experience because it sounds like what what you experienced and granted you are a skilled worker you, you know, you're in a, you know, you've got, you know, perhaps skills that then, you know, in our workplaces are more rewarded than say for a low wage woman. But it's a it's sort of a bright spot and tell you what can we learn that that other women can also benefit from based on your experience. Sure. Well, yeah, I'd like to first acknowledge that my experience is very clearly the result of a couple of different privileges that I have. I work for a health care organization so they're up to date and literate and literate about public health, first of all. I have a degree that allows some flexibility. There are many things that sort of work in my favor that other people don't necessarily have. But for me, as an emergency physician, you know, I, I treat I evaluate coming contact with patients with infectious disease all the time and that's, that's part of the job. And I did that all through my first pregnancy. What's different with Coronavirus is largely the unknown, we, especially when it started did not know how it spread we're still learning more about that. So it's hard to know how to protect yourself. It's hard to know if there's any risk to a pregnant woman or a fetus. And so it was really just a whole new aspect to my job. So as an organization, Bay State Medical Center, the HR department had sent out a an email saying if you, you know, if you're thinking about this, your higher risk and requesting accommodations, here's how you go about it. And so I sent something back saying, I think at the time I was 24 weeks pregnant, and I was requesting to not be in contact with patients who may have Coronavirus. Right. Reasonable thing to ask, right. Yes, although I will say that was granted to me they coordinated with infectious disease to make sure that these were reasonable requests they agreed. As an emergency physician it quickly became entirely impossible to avoid patients who may have Coronavirus. Yeah. And at that point the organization left it to my department for how best to utilize me in a different capacity. And so for me, the department was wonderful in terms of allowing me to take on telehealth for patients who don't have primary care physicians so we were serving a patient population that needed that but I could do that from home. For for calling back test results Coronavirus test results because we felt it was beneficial to our patients to speak with a physician at a time when information was really changing frequently. Yeah, absolutely. And administratively to help with the policies and procedures within the entire hospital of how do we keep our patients and our staff safe and that was something I could also do from home and have and have been doing since since April. I would say for the organization they have sort of earned my undying gratitude over the way that they handled this and and certainly lots of loyalty, because both the department and base state medical center could have pushed back against these accommodations and frankly with all of my even with all of my privilege. I would have had to go back to work clinically seen patients we we can't afford for me not to go to get paid during this time. So, even in that position, I would have been forced to go back. Wow. So, Dina, I see you nodding your head and I, and I've been hearing you sighing throughout the the podcast. But it's, you know, this is these are issues that you hear about all the time. Yeah, you know, and one of the things that, you know, we were like, Rebecca had mentioned the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which is sort of enshrines in law that the pregnant workers need and deserve reasonable accommodations to it in order to keep them working. That's only passed in 27 states. You know, what do we do from here? What are we learning through COVID? What's becoming more and more apparent? How do we move forward? Well, how do we keep you from sighing? Well, I mean, because COVID has really laid bare these inequalities and these privileges and, you know, I'm able to tell a commute, but the women we hear from every day, you know, don't have employers like the one you just described and are really forced to make acceptable choices. They are employers that are not following OSHA, that are not following the CDC, and they are forced to choose between earning a paycheck and maintaining their health. And it's just unacceptable. And, you know, that we live in a world where this is still a problem, you know, and that we, you know, thankfully we now have 30 states, actually, Tennessee. We recently passed with, with, you know, chamber support, which is a promising sign that even the U.S. Chamber actually expressed support for the Federal Pregnant Worker Fairness Act. So this is an issue that, you know, if we want to keep the economy running, we need to ensure pregnant workers can stay healthy and on the job. And the Federal Pregnant Worker Fairness Act would create a uniform law to ensure that pregnant workers can get the immediate accommodations they need to stay healthy and on the job. I totally agree with Rebecca. I mean, the women who call our helpline, they are not calling necessarily to sue their employer. They're scared out of their minds and they want to say, what do I need to know and how do I keep my job? And so that's the framework what this law would put in a place, a clear framework to help put women due just that. So we need, you know, as we think about the recovery and we think about what needs to be put in place along with other measures like paid family medical leave and quality affordable childcare, we need the Federal Pregnant Worker Fairness Act. You know, Gabrielle, let me turn to you, kind of as you've been listening to the conversation you think about the young mothers that you're helping. What do you see? What do we need to learn? What do we need to be doing? You know, I just remember, you know, again, working with Rebecca and Dina over the years, covering a Supreme Court case where a UPS worker who was pregnant and was not supposed to lift heavy stuff. What she wanted to do was deliver letters and she was not allowed and that went all the way to the Supreme Court and that just seems so ridiculous and a waste of time and let her deliver letters and then let her go back to work after she gets birth. You know, what do you see that we need to do kind of moving forward? How do we make this better for the moms that you work with? Yeah, moving forward, and we work with women just like that, but someone saw her, someone gave her the information, they partnered with her to push this to the Supreme Court. She had to have a lot of allies in that process. And so what I would say is be someone who can amplify a voice of someone who was unseen and unheard in these circumstances and use the power and privilege that you may have in whatever position that is to move this forward and to make this more seen. So the fact that this was such an underlying issue for so long and COVID had to bring it out is in itself problematic. So any way that you can bring these things to the forefront, continue to educate, continue to just amplify the voices that are so long silenced is where I would say we need to focus our efforts. Yeah, so kush boo is you're thinking about, you know, coverage moving forward. You know, what are you thinking about in terms of what you'll continue to be to be watching and looking at when it comes to pregnant workers pregnant women, new mothers. Well, Gabrielle just hit it on the head, you know, and I think Dina has highlighted this, we're going to continue looking at systemic inequalities right that sort of feed into the inequity in maternal health care in the US and so Now we're looking at the next step of all the stories that we have talked about this program and our reporters are looking at how child care deserts these new child care deserts nationwide are affecting working mothers, how this potential and to $600 these benefits will will affect unemployed mothers and what this ever changing pandemic, as you know, everyone has said we just don't know what's happening, as Dr. Rich said earlier. And what this landscape will mean for mothers and pregnant women alike as we begin to unearth, you know, what the impact will be on women right as they go through their pregnancies as they, they go into labor when they come home. So, we're just looking at it from all angles unfortunately, we just it's everything is, it's such a big unknown. Mm hmm. So, Rebecca, closing thoughts. I know we could, we could all talk about this for ages and we all want to, you know, to, to make this better, how do we put you out of business. How do we make it that so that lawyers like you do not need to be taking up cases for pregnancy discrimination. My view has always been that workers need more rights in general, I mean to echo what Gabrielle and she we were saying and what Dean was saying about the pregnant workers fairness act. Workers don't have a lot of rights in this country. And when you don't have a lot of rights that means you're not valued as a human. You're not valued, you're a cog in a wheel, you're, you know, these workers are being treated like they're a thing on a shelf, instead of a human. And I've always, I've come to the conclusion after 22 years of doing this that when people don't have rights in the workplace, they aren't valued as human beings. And that makes all of the systemic prejudices we have the racism, sexism, it makes it worse. I think workers in this country need more rights in general. And I think the whole idea of business prerogative, you know, taking precedence over everything else is wrong. And I think we as a nation have to stop thinking that way. We can look at comparators in other parts of the world that are doing very well that have good economies that don't run there is the way we run ours. It's not necessary. And I think if anything's been laid bare by this pandemic, it's what happens when you don't give working people rights. And when you don't recognize that having a job and the need for income and the need for economic security should be a basic human right. Well, on that very powerful note, thank you all thank you so much to the, to all the panelists for for coming on for sharing your stories and your experience and wisdom. I want to thank all the participants who have been active on the chat. I'm sorry we didn't get to all of the questions that were raised. Thank you all for joining us. Thanks to the new America events team, better life lab team, my producer David Shulman. Thank you all. I'm going to be talking a deep dive yet again into childcare because this is an ongoing burning house crisis and really looking at what's it going to take to move the United States from where we are to do something that that works for all people all families. How do we get to that universal high quality system what's it going to take. In the meantime, stay safe, wash your hands, wear your mask, and we'll see you next week.