 We're here in the Annotation Lab. And so maybe you should explain what's going on here, Mona. So you've navigated down to a certain part, right? Yeah. Well, hi, everyone. I joined Alan this morning because I was having a hard time finding the materials to annotate. And also, I had forgotten how to log into Hypothesis. But after all of that, we are now actually going in. And annotating directly the wording of the UNESCO recommendations. And in fact, I just did a recommendation on Tell Me Alan. Which one was it? The question where he looks like on public. I think it was under the training. What was the letter, do you remember? The integral part of training programs. So it was be under member states are recommended to strategically plan and support OER capacity building. And one, we had another comment from Remy, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, on making OER an integral part of training programs at all levels of education. And Remy had suggested that this would be perfect for teacher education programs. And I absolutely agree with that. And then I mentioned that in the community colleges, a lot of new faculty training and orientation now involves some OER awareness of what is available in their discipline. So before they choose the instructional materials for their courses, they're really well-informed and can make some really good choices. And this is great. I mean, this example of adding just a short note of commentary that illustrates or highlights an aspect that someone else can maybe then respond to or add on to with maybe a specific example, or say like we need more of this, or this is why, or we've done research. So there's all kinds of ways that you can go. But we started with this by a little bit of discussion about trying to find the right words to annotate. And so one way in is to look at the notes that have been added and seeing what information you can contribute on top of this. So there's, as I've been trying to explain to my colleagues, there's not a rule here or right or wrong way to do this. I think every note added is an addition and adds to this document itself. Right. I'm definitely going to add some concrete examples too from the Community College Consortium for OER. Yeah. Because I think our members are doing this all the time and we support them in their work. So yeah. And you put a tag in. So if other people are putting information about CCCOER, we could definitely see the aggregate of all those tags. Yeah, it might be fun too for us to gather up at some point that information and maybe blog a little bit about what folks who are associated with CCCOER had to say about the annotation. So sometimes it's kind of fun to look at a sector as well as looking at the whole picture. Right. Now if I'm going to take over screen sharing a second, if that's OK. I'll stop sharing. And then I'm going to show you something pretty neat. I'll get this URL. So there's a tool that Rami Khalir, who is going to be on later, the author of the annotation book, had told me about a couple of years ago. And this works with hypothesis to take activity around a single document and provide kind of some analytics so you can see the activity. And so your annotation is there as the most recent one. And then as we go down, we can see as we go along the activity of who's been in here doing annotation, et cetera, and even thread. So this is a sort of interesting way to sort of surface the activity that's going on within the annotation space. I think that's pretty neat. Can you share that tool with me or is it someplace? Yeah, I will. I'm going to put the link right in the chat for you. It's on the page. And we will have one set up for each of the language versions of the recommendations since we have activity starting up in Spanish and French as well. Yeah, I saw that. Neat, neat. So I, Paul, you were just telling me about your experience annotating. And what have you sort of the process of doing it? What's kind of come to mind for you? Yeah, I think well, yeah, so I just spent like an hour and a half doing some annotations in the OER recommendations. Kind of fun. It makes you really reflect on what currently is happening globally around open education resources and the efforts to implement that. That could be used as examples for others to understand what they themselves might do. And I think as we were chatting about the other day, I mean, part of it is like some of the things that the recommendation calls for are actions by governments, by member states. But in many ways, I think the OER recommendation also provides a bit of a framework for how a school or an institution or even a department might think about what would we do to make open education, open education resources a part of the way we do education. And so in that context, both for government and for those who actually would then implement whatever our government supports in terms of legislation, I think the recommendation provides a lot of good guidance. It's actually pretty good. And there's a lot to it. I think, yeah, I mean, I put in quite a few annotations to things that are existing initiatives already underway in different parts of the world. And then a few reflections about some of the things the annotation calls for or suggests that implementation of open education resources involves changing pedagogy and potentially transforming education. Like those are like that is that big stuff. It's both a kind of potential and also a promise. It's like if you get going down this path, then not only will you create higher quality open education resources, but you potentially have the ability to transform education into something that really is inclusive and participatory. Is your windows still open? Can you show us your annotations? Oh, yeah, let me see here. Because I think, I mean, my idea was it would be good to have a group of people in here. I mean, you actually muted while I was talking to Una and did your own annotation activity. And I just, I mean, this is kind of somewhere in between like it's not really a live event. But I think there's something to be said for being able to do this like together almost like like art studios work. People are focused on their own artwork, but that doing the same act in proximity, I think has some kind of energy level to it, or I would like to think so. Yeah, I think there's merit to that. I also feel like sometimes it is you and I have talked a lot about what annotation might entail. But then I think sometimes just doing it, it's a bit like, you know, when you're studying for doing your homework and you're studying, sometimes it's helpful to have a group discussion. But other times you just kind of have to like hone in and focus on what it is that it's asking you to do. And I think there's a lot of merit for both of those activities. I really appreciate it actually having this lab drop-in created to provide a place where we can talk about it. But also a place where, you know, you can actually hone in and focus and get some of it done. Yeah, I think there's, as you're finding your screen, I think like just being able to look at that same part of the document and talk about like what, whether words speak to you or whether like, well, where do I, you know, put something in that there seems to be sort of like a, is this the right way? Is this the right kind of thing to put in there? And we all don't know, I know. Yeah, actually here, let me just, I'll just share, do a little screen share here. Thank you. Yeah, let's do this. Yeah, so here's a few things that I put in. So I did put in something about transforming education that it's, you know, that it is both a promise, but also a challenge in some ways and a little bit of my own reflections on what that entails. Because I think if we're really talking about fully implementing open education, it's kind of adopting not just the resources that we might create, but a set of values and principles and practices. And so that's in a sense, well, has the potential to be transformative. I also put in open science, because it references here that it'd be great for policies to consider, yes, open education resources, but also the work that's happened around open access, open data, open source software and open science. And, you know, while UNESCO has just, you know, in 2019 released or formally adopted the open education resources recommendation just, well, in November, just this, like in November, 2021, last month, also all the member states adopted the open science recommendation. So here we have two recommendations adopted by all UNESCO member states that are advocating for the use of open ideas and practices and values for science and for education. And so, you know, I think there's a growing recognition that these, that this notion of open has relevance across many facets of how we operate as societies, for science, for education, for software and so on. And so, when it comes to making policies, I think it's helpful perhaps to think about the big macro framework, and then maybe we just need one policy that encompasses all of them, or perhaps we need unique policies for each of these. But I did link to the UNESCO open science recommendation. And someone who might be coming across it could see that there's an annotation for open science. They don't have to add a new one, they can just tack on like, this is an example of initiative that's going on here in Germany, when these are the things that we're doing. And then someone else could say like, well, we really like to try to get this going in Vietnam, but how do we like do this? And so it's, I think annotating is not only just adding like that first note, but being part of the conversation that I was. Yeah, yeah, I did reply to some of the annotations that other people have made too. So that's kind of fun, right? So you can just kind of build on it. I did put in some stuff here about teacher professional development, just some of the existing programs and courses that are already created that are really about professional development. And also, most of these are like openly licensed, making them adaptable and reusable by anyone who wants to kind of build out something similar. And same with networks of experts, like Open Education Global, our organization has several of them. And so I think it's, I think part of what I see the annotation accomplishing is that when you read the recommendation, it can feel like it's a bit overwhelming. It's kind of daunting to go, oh my gosh, how could we possibly implement this? And in the annotations, I think provide some guidance on that that help it not feel so overwhelming and make it seem, oh well, we can take like incremental little steps by choosing to implement some of these particular pieces that help us gradually make progress as opposed to like, we have to do everything. So like it feels like it's impossible. So anyways, those are some of the things that I was thinking about and adding and doing as I was working on this. Well, thank you, Paul. I can grant you your OE Global Open Education badge and I will, I'm gonna start doing this. I'll challenge you the next time to bring two more people into the lab. Oh, okay, all right, I like it, yeah. Yeah, well, no, it's been a pleasure to join you and Rosa, the annotator, and Oona and others that are, and I hope it goes well for me as well. And I saw some annotations from a number of people. So I think the more, yeah, there's something about the more we bring into this process, even just for short chunks of time and engage in it the richer it becomes. So thanks so much for making it possible, Alan. You're doing some yeoman's work here. Thanks, Paul, I'll see you later. Thank you, Ola Marcella, and thank you for jumping into the Annotation Lab. And so you've gotten to start with putting some notes into the Spanish language version of the recommendation. And I'm just curious if you can sort of talk out loud about your approach for doing this and what seems to be beneficial. Well, for me, first of all, I think that the benefit of the having the opportunity to work in a document like the recommendation of the UNESCO OER is that sometimes you're just browsing or information comes to you and then you don't know what to do it with it. So finding a way of connecting those two things is very useful for me in regards of doing something like this, the annotation. I have to be honest, this is the first time that I've been using this resource and I have been loving it. So now being led by my colleague Anna Levine of doing this activity, I think that I was thinking of it both ways. One, thinking of what the recommendation is and having defined action areas in mind and trying to think of the resources that I have available around the community and see if I could find the connection there. But I can see being worked around the other way too, like having a really good resource and finding a way to insert it into the recommendation. So I don't think of it as a one line process but more like finding a way how things can connect. And also this document is, I think that it's the perfect length and it's a very clear and very structured that made it also very easy to how to connect some of the resources into the document. So for example, one of the first annotations that I found here was this word, dinamico y colaboración, which really is not particularly making reference to one of the action areas which people would mainly go to that first. But then I thought, oh, how clever of doing it just how the dinamismo colaboración two very specific words that are in reference to the recommendation not highlighting the action area. So this was a great example that was there actually done by you, Alan. And I thought that was a very clever way of doing it. What I started doing initially, which I thought was the easiest way for me to start this process was identify the main topics and then work my way down. So what I did was during OE Global, we had a seminar that was highlighting the action areas in Spanish and in the Latin America region. So that was a very easy connection between what we had created, the tracks in the conference and then finding this document. And again, as a way of not losing that information and making sure that this can be a push forward to somebody else that maybe was not able to be at the conference and also the opportunity of having these conversations be all around these specific topics was a very easy connection to make with the document. So what I did was look for the topics in this case, the first one, which is for the Sarroyo Capacidades, which is a capacity building, which is a topic of today. And yeah, so you just linked it. It's a very straightforward way of doing things. You just link the title and then add your comment. Does that, I had discussion earlier with someone else, like does that phrase building capacity resonate for many people or is it, because it could be many things. I mean, the document talks about awareness and a lot of it talks about all the support mechanisms that organizations do to help people do more with OER. But maybe building capacity is an unusual phrasing. It is, I think that it is, but also it's unusually in a way that can be brought into other things. So if you just think of building capacity, what does that mean to me, for example, is like making sure that you have like the working force to develop something. And in, at least in going back to these seminars or the highlights that were made during the Latin America session was, we need to train, build our people or train our people to make sure that we can build more capacity, meaning like we provide them the resources for them to create more. And, but yes, I see your point of building capacity not being a very common phrase, but I, well, me personally, I do like it. I think that it keeps an opportunity to give more than just let's do like professional development or something like that could be the one that we have been highlighting. But it can also translate to many other things I would think. Yeah, and it's almost towards creating potential is another. Exactly, yeah. And so like having now some annotation experience, like what can you say, what does it offer? Why would people, why should they go to this trouble? And even if you wanna like explain in Spanish, that'd be fantastic too. Well, first of all, I have to say that it's no trouble at all. I think that as you and I have been discussing in the past is more of like a habit forming thing. I think that we are usually all surrounded by content all the time, that finding a way or developing a habit of connecting that content to something else. And actually you're really good at it, like curating the information in a way for me, that's the way that I'm looking at it. Like, let me not forget about this. So I think that this annotation process makes that easy to make sure that that information that you found and that it's valuable to you, find a way into something that you can go back and review later or have just their tag. And yes, switching to Spanish, I would invite all my colleagues who work with open education to try to make connections with the resources in Spanish that we have, that we have a lot of, are extraordinary and what better way to be able to do this annotation process and sharing with the world the resources that we have available at our disposal in the five areas of the recommendation of UNESCO. The way that we could do it is just finding a space, a phrase or even a title and connect the information that is relevant to that title and be able to build a document that can enrich the population of Alispac even more. Bueno, I really appreciate this. I'm just doing a little bit of recording this in clips. Alex is here. You know Alex, right? Yes, of course. Hi, Alex. It's a pleasure. He came in this morning and I subjected him to a little bit of recording but I think it might help so people can get an understanding of what we're doing and hopefully, and I keep going back Ramey Kallir who's coming in in a few minutes in the podcast we did with him really brought up a good point like getting a lot of these annotations is great but like what if someone goes to this process and then thinks about how they could use this approach with something in their own interest area or around their own document that they would like to invite on this kind of commentary and so that's like a real beneficial outcome to think about. This is to me like a really simple but powerful open pedagogy approach that we'd like more people to use. Absolutely. I'm putting everybody on the spot who wonders into the lab today so that will probably scare away everybody else. This is great. Well, this is going to be very improvisational and very freeform but you can see the annotated document, is that correct? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so like from the very beginning like this very first section is a preamble, right? And then, you know. Well, can I even before we get to the recommendation just kind of jump back? I think this is the French version that I was just looking at giving out comments but I want to jump back here because I think that this is really nicely done. If I'm being recorded and I'm sharing my screen I'll give you guys a shout out and just say that I really appreciate how this has all been organized. I think that this is a really clear way of actually guiding people into a text. In a lot of cases when people encounter social annotation and a text that is digital it's living online somewhere it can initially appear like it's kind of free of context. It's like, oh, I found this thing and people are like annotating it and I'm not quite sure what's going on there and like how do I get started and how do I find a way in? And what I appreciate is that this is again framed as its own version of these texts that have been curated for a very particular purpose. And so when we look at this press books we understand the why and the fact that you provide the why right away is just such a helpful way of getting people to understand where they are and what they may be doing. And so that to me is really important. And then the idea that this has broken up by language although again we've identified and already discussed some challenges that being said, this to me is also one way of suggesting to people that there's an intentional stance towards inclusion. There's an intentional stance towards not only centering English as the dominant language and that these activities can be social and can be collaborative across a variety of languages associated with this primary source. So this in and of itself to me is just so well curated and organized. Then of course there's some resources about annotation and I appreciate that you've drawn upon some of our work and that's really humbling but I just think also again help from providing some context and then of course the conferences. So I think this is just to me like a really nice way of multiple kinds of activities and multiple kinds of resources to really present a context for people and that's often lacking when people sometimes stumble across a random blog post or an academic article or even a piece of journalism and they're like, oh I'm supposed to be annotating this and this to me is a really good example of providing that full context. So anyway, it's a big shout out Alan. I know you did a lot of work. Thank you. And I have to say like that the original order was there was way too much up front like and so I ended up rethinking we really want people to get in annotating as quickly as possible. And I think I turned the why we are annotating into the practice area. I always thought I probably learned that from you as to like have a place where people can go first just to do the high hello sort of annotation. And before they start like, we talked about that am I supposed to write in the book? But yeah, thank you for that. I'm still working on some. It's really, I think this is a really nice model. I think that part of this is we actually discussed in the podcast recently I think that part of this kind of an activity is to show other open practitioners and other advocates of open education and kind of writ large how they themselves can kind of curate not only the kinds of activities but the technical spaces and the technical like the architecture here that allows you to then read and write and make meaning together. And so this is, I think just a really nice exemplar of that. But yeah, then we dive into of course here is the text, here is the English version in this case of the OER recommendation. And it does begin with this preamble. Now, I don't want to presume that folks who have or haven't used hypothesis before would be familiar with the hypothesis sidebar but that's this thing that you're seeing here. You can toggle it open and you can toggle it open and closed. And some people don't know that you can actually also resize this bring it all the way over and all the way back. What I also want to point out is that there's a few ways of navigating through them the annotations themselves, this annotation layer that's appearing on top of the text which is that sometimes people prefer to see the annotations as they move through the text. So this is a kind of, we might call it even like a more geographic approach. It's organized by location. And we actually see that if we click on these double arrows and we see that location is highlighted here. But other people might want to see, well, what came first? Like who got here initially and what did they add? And so we can actually reorder the annotation sidebar according to its date. And we can see then in this case that the first annotation was added Allen by you on the 29th of September and it was actually just recently edited about a week ago. So now we're ordering these annotations sequentially oldest to newest or we can also reorder them by newest. And so we can see that actually our colleague, Paul was just in here an hour ago. And so that's really interesting to see that it looks as though and to me, this is like always kind of a nice indicator of social presence. There's Alex 36 minutes ago. So here's a note from Alex. Here are some notes from Paul. So here we see some, you know, some contributions from Paul that all came in about an hour ago. So we know, hey, this colleague of ours spent some time. He was here, right? Like there was a sense of like social presence. These breadcrumbs were left and these kind of all whoops, there we go. Where did this go? There we go. The annotations were kind of like there together at the same time. And then we see more from you, Alan and more from Paul. So now we start to see the kind of, the temporal qualities of the activity. And as we're speaking, and as I'm fumbling through my screen sharing, folks might have also noticed this little red arrow up here, right here as well. I'm gonna brag and say that it was about five or six years ago when I went to hypothesis and I said, what's really challenging is that the sidebar updates in real time when people are annotating synchronously. And so if you do have a lot of people on a text and at this point in time, and Alan, you actually mentioned this in our last conversation, there was a time when I was really interested in the idea of flash mobs, which I've actually increasingly seen as a pretty, not precise enough analogy for what I see actually happening here. But at the time, I was like, well, if we get all these people to read and annotate together, it's kind of like a flash mob. People were providing to me as a facilitator in their feedback, is actually that it was way too incoherent. It was way too hard to understand what was going on. And that was both a facilitation limitation on my part as a facilitator, but it was also a technical limitation, which is that the hypothesis sidebar, every time a new annotation was added, it was automatically adding these, we might call these annotation cards, every individual annotation is like its own card. Some of them become threaded conversations when we get replies to those conversations, but these cards were then automatically updating and so they were jumping all over the place and readers who wanted to do so maybe thoughtfully and slowly and really pay attention to a particular area of the text, they couldn't do that. And so hypothesis quickly devised in conversation with us this very nice and useful technical feature that indicates that there's a annotation. In this case, if you hover over it, it'll says one new annotation. This will actually show you how many have been added. And then as the reader, I'm given the control when to update this. As the reader, I can say, okay, I want to now update this and because I've organized this by newest first, when I update this, see if this works, live demo, this card should appear at the top of the sidebar and it may have been a reply. And so in that case, here it was, at least from Alex or speaking of which, right, we've got a reply from two minutes ago. And so that was to me a really important example where the social reading experience among a group of readers is going to inevitably be very, very different for people. Some people want to read more quick. I have to credit you, Rami, because both those things you just show me, I've been looking at this interface for years. I never tried. Yeah, I've spent so much time like just living in this sidebar because I value the technology. It is an open source technology, as I think folks know. I think there's a lot of organizational transparency and goodwill from hypothesis to kind of support these kinds of efforts. And they've been very responsive when people who are readers and who are annotators want to meaningfully engage in these kinds of activities. And they found their way not only from kind of these, dare I say, like bespoke little experiments that people are doing online into the more robust features that are actually incorporated into things like a learning management system when people are using them in a class context. And so it's all just to say that, as I was mentioning briefly, social reading is going to be a very, well, variable experience. Some people are going to want to read a particular area. Some people want to read a larger area. Some people want to read very slowly. Some people want to read more quickly. Some people like the idea of responding kind of in the moment. And some people want to more thoughtfully curate their responses as an annotator. And so these technical features are very helpful when allowing people to really personalize actually the social experience. We're doing this together. We're doing so in an interactive way. It is a form of social reading, but we can still personalize the experience as we go about doing so. So anyways, just a few things to note here. But while we're talking, I mean, I've probably never used the page notes. That could be a place to do some curation, right? Or- It can be, absolutely, absolutely. So page notes, again, there are two types of annotations that we see here attached to this particular text. So again, we have the OVR recommendation. I'm gonna go back and organize this by location so that I'm kind of brought back to the beginning of the text, the preamble here. And so we see here that we are looking at these annotations that are anchored to maybe a particular word. So here the anchor text is just the term preamble. A little later on, we see another annotation, Alan, excuse me, from Alex. You know, you've, in this case, the anchor text is an entire, I guess, clause maybe. It looks like it doesn't have a period there. So maybe it's a clause. And you've added a few tags to that. And so your annotation is still anchored to a particular part of the text. And instead of your own commentary, you're adding some illustrative metadata. But what we're seeing in all of this are sections of the text that have been annotated. And those kinds of annotations, whether it's a word or an entire clause or a sentence or a paragraph, those do differ from a page note. And a page note is associated with the entire document. A page note is not anchored to a word or a sentence or a clause or a paragraph. It's anchored to the document as a whole. And so there are a lot of creative ways to use page notes. If you would, again, adopt an intentional stance towards how to use it. Sometimes a teacher, for example, might put discussion questions here. So, hey, students, as you read this text, what are your thoughts about open education? Make sure that you add a few kind of additive annotations about open education as you read. That kind of a question that's pretty global in scope could guide reading activities. And it might be appropriate here as a page note. But again, synthesis, kind of post-activity reflections could very much live here in the page notes as well. Yeah, and now that I, I mean, I kind of attached my introduction to the preamble because I wanted to draw attention to that. But the overall directions or call to action that we wanted to do could have gone in a page note if I had been thinking about it. Sure. And I think that this is where, again, some people may not understand that distinction. Some people might not quite know where to look in the project that I've done with the National Writing Project and the National Council of Teachers of English. It's a project that kind of gets educators to talk about equity-oriented literacy education. We call it the marginal syllabus. And that project, we do make use of the page notes really as that orientation space. We say, oh, hey, you're here. Like, you found the space. This is a page note. Here's some introductory information. Like, here's what the project is and here's what we're doing here. And we even include, and I won't waste our time running down on an example, but we even will include a little image, like a screenshot that actually shows you toggling from the page notes over to the annotations. From here over to here, so that a reader, if they find themselves here and they're new to hypothesis, they're new to this entire genre of social annotation, they at least have a visual cue that they can click here and now they understand that they're in a space where the annotations are, again, or organized by location. Well, I mean, we could have a group like in a meeting or a setting, go through all the annotations and pick 10 notes that support a position and 10 that counter it. And you could have like a discussion within the page notes referencing those links. Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, as I move through here, again, like as somebody who like swims in annotations and particularly hypothesis annotations, there's just so much that I'm already drawn to, even from these first few notes. What is the inclusion, Alan, and your initial note added to the preamble, you're including links. This to me is such an important aspect of what is the intertextual qualities of annotation. When glossitors and scribes were annotating medieval manuscripts, they may have referred to other texts, but the texts that they were referring to, somebody might have had to kind of stand up and walk over to a bookshelf and or like literally unshame a cabinet or even the book that they might be referring to could be on another country or continent, right? Like, you know, the idea of readily referencing and making accessible another related text is done here so seamlessly. And of course, it's done just through a link and it's done through an embedded, you know, URL. And so the idea that the annotations now have these here to me is such a valuable feature of this. So it's intertextual. We see that. We see this also as multimodal. Now you're beginning to add in, you know, images, which is fantastic. And then to, you know, the example of Alex's annotation a few moments ago and also in yours here, Alan, as well, we're seeing tags. And tags are a really fascinating practice in this kind of social annotation space. What I'm noticing from Alan, what you've done is you've used a tag, you know, associated with the conference, right? It's kind of, this tag itself has a kind of broader social life. And so if somebody was on Twitter or in some other space, maybe Facebook or even Instagram perhaps, they might follow this tag and find related communities and open ed practitioners. And so there's a consistency there. What you're modeling for us, Alan, to get a little technical is a more of a controlled vocabulary right of the tagging. Whereas to, you know, Alex, you're, you know, tags here, you've added tags that are of personal relevance, are suggesting meaning making, are in my reading, in my interpretation, I would say more critically oriented, you've added the tags of decolonizing and indigenization. Which are for you important tags to add. It's part of your meaning making process as you're annotating this text. And those tags might not appear again or they may appear in your other annotations but maybe nobody else's or maybe I then begin to use them. But what this models for me is what some folks would call a folksonomy, right? Where the tagging is very emergent. It's kind of, there we say kind of grass roots oriented. It's kind of emerging from the individual ideas of readers as annotators. And it's different than the kind of more controlled, consistent, known tag that Alan modeled with OE Global 20. And I did neither as good or bad. They're just different ways of tagging texts, right? And I kind of wrestled whether I should, like have a suggested vocab tag. Like it could be the action areas. It could be, you know, and then I just often feel like it's another ask that people may feel like, oh, that's another thing to figure out. So I'm kind of interested in the informal ones but when I was talking with my colleague, Oona Daly, who actually replied to your comment earlier, she works with a part of our organization that's community colleges. And so I suggested when she's working with her community and they're adding things relevant to community college as they add a CCC OER, which is their public tag. But it's a way of aggregating within this, could be within this document or within all of annotation space, depending where you search on it. But, you know, I think it has a lot of value. I just didn't really land on the right spot to emphasize and I lean towards de-emphasizing. Absolutely. Well, and so, but here's another example, you know, of another way to approach tag. And I love it. This just kind of pops up, you know, out five minutes ago, five minutes ago I did this, again, a few links. And then a tag, L-O-D-L-A-M, which I am reading now as a abbreviation or an acronym linked to open data in libraries, archives, and museums, right? So now I've just learned something new. This is a little different than the tag decolonization and indigeneity, right? This is a different kind of category of a tag where, again, it's an acronym. It's telling me, you know, it's referring to a specific group it looks like or a project, for example. And in fact, this tag may appear elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised, perhaps, not too should tell us if people who are a part of these efforts are using this tag in other spaces. I could now follow that tag if I was on Twitter or I was elsewhere, but now you've brought it into our annotation conversation. Do you mind, Alex, just giving us a bit of background on this? This particular tag in comment? As you wish, but yes, it has been used precisely as this one hashtag. It's useful because it's unique enough that when you use LODLAM online, it's only about this. And because Alan was talking about GLAM, which is the same thing, but just in general, right? And especially LODLAM is very connected in CC Creative Commons. The documentation for the course, the training in Creative Commons, specifically talks about GLAM and then about linked open data. So the connection is meaningful and especially since linked open data is about following those hashtags and having them unique. So it was on purpose. And I'll add another comment about the five-star linked open data because it's been useful. That's great. I love these stories. Yeah, I know. But I'm thinking like, you always think LODLAM is like unique and then you find it's used by some rugby club in like Kazakhstan. So you never know, but maybe just a slightly tiny technical question. Like, does hypothesis see a pound LODLAM as the same tag as LODLAM? Like, because sometimes some people get used to hashtagging tags and messes up tag systems. Well, so let's actually jump over to crowd layers and I'll show you a little bit about what that looks like because I don't wanna give the wrong technical answer here. My convention is to not use the hashtag symbol in a hypothesis annotation. So if I were to reply to this with just a tag, I would do so like this. Right. And there's the tag and I'm gonna just post it for the sake of a little test. I can go back and delete it if we want to. Now, I did load this up when we were getting the screen sharing ready. Folks know that I and a dear friend and colleague of mine, Francisco Perez, have organized so we call crowd layers. Now, this is gonna also update in real time because we're putting the URL of this annotated text into again, this kind of open. It's basically taking the learning analytics of this and bringing them into a kind of visual, social kind of space. Since I loaded this, there have been some additional annotations. So if I just simply search this again, it's gonna be at 68 now, okay? And so here is the annotation that I just added. LODLAM, you don't see any text because it was just the tag. And then here's Alex's annotation from a few moments ago with the text. And then there is a tag that is noted here. And so there are 20 distinct tags associated with this text. And if we go down here in this crowd layers interface, and I actually need to move a little zoom thing out of the way. So excuse me for just a moment, but you're seeing that we have the tags coming through. And let me just get this out of the way. Oh, I think they're separate. Get this out of the way. Yeah, you're seeing LODLAM here. Yeah. And you're seeing LODLAM here. And so we're seeing then this counter that's two different tags because that hashtag symbol is a differentiation in some respects, right? And so again, this is where the tagging feature of this is, again, it's pretty open-ended. We're not, again, as you were saying a few moments ago, Alan, like suggesting that people do or don't take this next step. But in certain contexts, in certain cases, maybe like a class, when you do have people, you know, perhaps annotating and using tags in certain ways, it can be helpful to say, hey, just use this version of the word, maybe without that hashtag symbol. Although, again, many people do think of tags and social tagging because of things like Twitter and Instagram as including that hashtag symbol. So there's your brief little response to that. Yeah, and I'm even looking in the hypothesis search. And yeah, it's going to see it separately. But that's the fun. And we've been talking some about, you know, and a lot of our conversation is reaffirming that this stuff is messy, but that's okay. And I think that's something that I would really want to emphasize is this stuff is absolutely messy and that that's part of reading together. And my hope, and even if this was being done in a course context in a more formal educational context, is that even this type of annotation activity is not meant to be like a final exam or something that even needs to be graded. Of course, I get this question a lot from educators that I talked to about this. I never agree with my students' annotations because I know it will be messy. And it's intended to be messy. And people will, of course, quote, unquote, they think that they're making mistakes, quote, unquote, through their annotations. And I said, this is all just like rough draft thinking. We're trying to share this information, which really gets at Alan your question and comment from earlier about kind of like what's next and really saying if this is kind of messy and if this is a space for people to kind of work through their own thinking, their own meaning making, these types of social interactions, something else can happen with them. And that other thing might be maybe a little bit more polished, quote, unquote, right? Yeah, and Alex is asking a chat a good question that comes up a lot, like who feels included? And, you know, it varies depending on the scope of the project, like Nate's included because he just showed up in the room here. But, you know, in some of this discussion about like who feels like it's okay for me to be participating here and then it becomes, is it a performative act? And then, I mean, you get into, yeah, we can do private groups and that sort of bit. So, you know, but I wonder because we're trying to invite a large number of folks in here and, you know, I'm finding, you know, as easy as we know this is, I think there's still some kind of like threshold of acceptance and understanding that this is okay and worthwhile for me to be doing. And so how do we get people to that point is the billion dollar question. Right, I think there's always gonna be that initial, you know, do I feel welcome? Can I be here? Can I get over that threshold, as you say, Alan, aspect of this? I talked a little bit about that in our recent conversation, but to get back to really Alex's question about kind of inclusion and who feels welcome, I think that we need to recognize that these kinds of digital spaces are always gonna be kind of shot through with power dynamics and questions of who is and isn't welcome and who's gonna be included and who's not gonna be included. So I think that, again, in this particular, and without, again, like touting it too much, you know, Ontario and I really try and unpack this to some degree in our book, you know, there's a whole chapter dedicated to power. I'm increasingly seeing my work as attentive to issues of, thank you, Nate, thank you. Issues of kind of equity and presence. I will also say in a slightly different way that just today, although it's been works from months, actually, I just had a piece written out now around people actually annotating books and writing on books in a kind of young adult literature space. And I think that that's also really provocative and to me actually the most interesting example of power in annotation that I've seen in a very, very long time. I think it's just fascinating what's been happening with this particular book called Melissa and the author's involvement and the publisher's response. Anyways, that's a whole thing and I've been very wrapped up in thinking about it and I apologize for shifting there, but I think it does actually get back to Alex's question, which is really is all about power and presence. And really it's all about the questions like who is welcome to annotate and who can annotate and whose voice and whose opinion can be here. And so I do think that again, in this particular project with the OER recommendation, there are already a few important decisions that you've all made that make this more welcoming and make this easier for people to see themselves as playing a role. One of the things that we talked about a few moments ago is the language. You could have just suggested that people come to the English version of this text, but you didn't and you said that there are multiple languages here that people can annotate and Alex, I saw it earlier and I guess I'm still screen sharing so I could just bring this over. Alex, you have a lot of annotations here and if I'm not mistaken, all the annotations on this page are in French. This is one way of saying, hey, you are welcome here. That's I think really an important decision that you've made. A second decision that you've already made is this idea of multiple pathways to participation. And so it was really nice to be involved in the podcast recently that I guess went live this morning. That's providing some broader context by annotation. There's now this open office hours, your open lab time for people to just come and play and annotate and hang out. I know there's also gonna be invitations where people are gonna be, hey, you, with your expertise and your specialization, come and annotate. And so these are kind of modeling different participation pathways that I do think can make people feel more welcome and that their opinions and their contributions are very important to this endeavor. But regardless of what notes are or are not added, there's always gonna be that question of power and presence with these types of texts and that's not something that can be solved, but it can hopefully be very intentionally facilitated and discussed as a project like this moves forward. Yeah, thanks, this is so good. I kind of wanna go back like the structure of this document. Like when I was like looking at it and trying to just get my head around it, this whole introductory thing with the long clauses of the where as is and the hither two fours. I mean, it's important. It's establishing the evolution of this. So, but there's like, I mean, and that could be a place where people wanted to, they can sort of add notes that sort of attached to the Cape Town declaration and the meeting in Slovenia that establishes that would be really good. But there's many, I mean, sometimes there's so many places where you might find like the word copyright or language. And so there's multiple places where you can hang the annotation. So I wonder if that presents problem or opportunities because it's not like there's a single place where an annotation might fit in. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, yeah. That's a really, really great question, Alan, particularly for a text like this, which is where these annotations live. Where's the kind of strategic place to anchor this particular note in this particular place for people to find? And I don't think I have a really good answer for that because I think that a lot of that concerns like how does the individual reader understand their response and then their decision to say, I wanna put it here. But I will say this then because I kind of just hedged on a question a little bit and I'll kind of kick things over to Nate here but I will show one more thing in a moment. Hypothesis has technically provided the ability to link to annotations. So when I look at any annotation, I can use this little, it's an interesting little icon here. It kind of suggests that there's this little annotation that's living anchored to a text that I can share it. And so when I share it, I'm given a link which I can then immediately, although it's a very long text and it's kind of a bit of gobbledygook, it doesn't really matter because I can just copy it to my clipboard. And I've then copied a link to this particular annotation. And so if there wasn't your example, Alan, three or four or five different examples of a term or a phrase or an idea and you really wanted your annotation to be like, well, I want you to look here but then it shows up again, six, seven, 10 paragraphs later. You could say, hey, remember, I had my initial thoughts about it here or I explained myself here or if there was a conversation like this thread at some point, you could use this share function and copy it and then kind of reference people back to that initial place where you made your mark. Yeah, that makes sense. And so now I'll put you on the spot. Let's say you're gonna add the marginal syllabus project to this document, where would you go? To this document? I think that I am increasingly interested in the marginal syllabus project as an example of people who have begun to identify a shared interest, want to then read and annotate, debate and discuss that together in a kind of open way and use it as an open model. So I know that the OER recommendation beyond particular practices and policies does to some degree talk about creating kind of models for open learning, essentially. And I see a project like the marginal syllabus is actually not particularly innovative, although I think we've done a few interesting and notable things but we've essentially said in this kind of context of open ed, of open learning, here's a way to create a open project where people who share an interest have some technical skill and are eager to kind of come together, can do so using openly accessible texts, using open source hypothesis software, creating openly, you know, kind of publicly shared annotations and inviting in their networks and their colleagues. And then here's a model that then you could use in your space and context. And to me, that fits right in with capacity building. Like it's- Right, exactly. Yes, yes, exactly. And I didn't want to, I guess, humbly suggest that this is like, you know, and I got to run again. Thank you so much. Another person showed up at the house. I'll fill you in about this later, Nate, but I got to take a few minutes and deal with the whole situation. It's very good. Thank you for being here. So good to see everybody. Be in touch. This is a little pleasure, a real pleasure. Thank you. This is all conversational, but we're just, you know, trying to get a feel as if we were having a, we were actually sitting in the same room and like, you know, talking about either the document or what we're seeing it or how, what we might want to see in it, you know? And so, I mean, we were talking a little bit about, yeah, and my feeling when I first started with this, it's, I would say an interesting document. Like it's not, you know, it's not a paper. And obviously, and it's not, you know, a novel, it's got a very specific structure. And just wondering about like what lends itself or maybe not to sort of soliciting people to sort of say like, I have something to contribute here that can help clarify. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the first things I see when I open the document, of course, is that, you know, it's, as you guys were discussing before, it's kind of written in this sort of the legalese style, which I think there's a way in which just your casual reader that you sort of glance off that, right? Like if you're not coming in with a kind of distinct purpose, it can be like, whoa, it's a wall of text written in a language I don't normally care to read that much. And so it makes me think, you know, there are other kinds of texts that might have this effect as well. You know, for instance, scientific papers, for example, you know, it's funny, I was just rereading Thomas Kuhn's structure of scientific revolutions. I don't know if you guys know that book, Alex apparently does really great seminal work to use a weird bad word, important work. And it's, you know, it talks about how different sort of, well, he's focused on science, but how different, you know, groups of people, discourse groups end up shifting from one way of looking at the world to another. Then that whole idea of a paradigm shift in thinking is a phrase that kind of came out of Thomas Kuhn's work. But at any rate, one of the things that's, that often signals a paradigm shift is when, you know, that the actual texts of a community become sort of opaque and dissatisfying to enough members of the community. So they either don't engage with them or they wanna move on. And so I think there's something about the approachability of the text that is at play here. And then the second thing though I would say is that I think annotation is a way to break through that, that, you know, the opacity of the text and give people a handhold in their thinking to engage with the texts. And we see that as, I'm bringing this up all the time but we see that a lot in the AAAS science in the classroom project that uses annotation, what they call lenses in order to enable people to better dive into the opacity of scientific texts. I thought I was going right to the actual site and I wasn't, here we go. Oops, I'm not very good at navigating these computer things. I, yeah, I'll just put this into the chat for the record but so they use annotation here in scientific articles in order to do, and I'll just jump to one in order to kind of give people a way who maybe aren't used to reading scientific texts a way to sort of break into it. And so they've got the whole scientific paper here and this is a formal published work, right? And then what they've done is they've actually used hypothesis annotation behind the scene to establish these sort of learning lenses. And so you can like flip on or off different learning lenses. And so I flipped on the glossary one and that highlights certain words and it kind of like gives you a guidepost of what they are. So they built a kind of new interface layer on top of the annotation layer but, you know, what can be really great about this is results and conclusions. If you're a newcomer to the world, you'll realize that a lot of each scientific paper is not about the results and conclusions of the experiment, right? Very little is highlighted here when it comes to results and conclusions. So if you're a student, this gives you some ad holes in your reading, right? And so I guess we could go back to what we're working on here and think about it a little bit the same way. And I think you're, you know, the root annotations that people have provided give or can form those little handholds. Like here's a spot to maybe focus your attention and grow out from here. So I think that's a good thing to try to do but I think that the other issue though is going back to that marginal syllabus example of when I come to this text, am I part of some sort of community that is gonna, that has a different reason for being and then reading and commenting on this text helps support that community's reason for being. And so I guess the question then is what are the communities that already have the reason to wanna read and engage with a fairly opaque text like this? And I mean, it's probably the OER community comes to mind, right? But that's a really big amorphous thing. And then it makes me think of your calliguna, right? Like, okay, so it leads a community within the community that's focused on OER. And so I can imagine some, almost kind of like scheduled sessions where people in the CCCOER community, you know, actually come together and maybe you've already planned something around that. Yeah, yeah, we're trying and, you know, as far as like trying to think of reasons why at a minimum, I think it's a good place for people to like pin the work that they're doing to so that this is where our work fits into like the largest fear of this global open education movement. And so, you know, so if you're running a project or if you're doing a translation, you know, OER experiment, if you're doing something of a research study, you know, why not say like, you know, this is what our group is doing here, learn more about this. So I think, you know, sometimes it sounds like, yeah, like show off your work, but I think it's like share it in a place where it can mingle with others, which to me always creates the possibility that you're gonna, you know, because like I was just adding some examples of we've had these great discussions about technologies that allow people to do internet things where there's no internet, you know, the offline internet sort of capabilities internet in a box and there's tons of them. And so every time I do some research, I find more that I know about. And I think it does a lot to show, you know, what OER is capable of doing in terms of being inclusive and expanding access because of some of these, you know, sometimes experimental efforts, but creative efforts to sort of bring these capabilities to places where there's not fiber coming out of the ground. Right, or power even necessarily, right? Power, so yeah. So, you know, you know, if there was, you know, thousands of notes here, it could be interesting and that messy saturation that Rami talks about. Unfortunately, you've hit another sore point which is that hypothesis isn't enabled for offline access right now. I did demonstrate another thing, right? I used the search bar in the hypothesis sidebar to search for CCC OER. Right. And that then highlighted any annotations that actually mentioned that of which there are three. Right. And I see this one and when I click on them, it jumps to that point in the text, right? So it jumps to this one that your other colleague, Paul Stacey, added where he decorated this phrase, create networks of experts with a mention for the work that you guys do to an education mobile, including CCC OER. So there's a really good example in a way that you can use the tool to find such things. Like, did anyone talk about CCC OER yet on this document? Excellent, yeah. And so it sort of becomes, I think even Marcel says that we're turning this document into an OER itself in a way. Yeah, and actually it really technically is because we could go into this, but annotations made in the public layer and hypothesis are thrust into the public domain through a CCC zero declaration. So they're even a little bit more than open. Was it, I was just curious, was there a debate over that or do people object to that? Oh yeah. There's a really great GitHub issue thread that you can read at your leisure if you want that included people, not just hypothesis people, but people from creative commons and lawyers and everybody weighing in on different choices. Yeah. And we could recreate that here, but I don't think I have the aptitude for it. That's okay. No, I don't want, I just, I think it was, I don't know when I first noticed it, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I bet people do get caught up in that. Yeah. And that's just the public layer. What I mean, what I'd love to see. And so there's no licensing attached to any of the other layers, the group layers or the private layer, whatever. So that means they at least in the US jurisdiction, they default to fully copyrighted, right? So I would, what I would love to see is some kind of licensed chooser capability. So either as a general preference or that could maybe be overridden on a particular annotation, the author could choose whatever copyright status they wanted for their own work. Yeah. Oh my gosh, of course, Alex might have found it, probably. That's the problem with having these social butterflies in the chat. Let's see, that looks right. Yeah, 48 comments. Yeah, I think this, he might have found it. You want Alex in your webinar audience. He just late to it. And we often do, I think, which is great. Thank you for coming to so many liquid margins, Alex. Yeah, this is interesting at the same time I learned it. Like really, we're talking about the license of a note. Which brings me to another issue that I have around openness, where it's just like the fixation on licensing and copyright, I feel like gets in the way so often of, before you can even think about open, you have to have understood everything about not only normal copyright law, but also open licensing. And just like the friction involved with that is so immense that I think it can turn some people away. Right, right, well, and I think I added a note this morning because there's some language charts at the beginning about understanding of open licenses and copyright and jurisdictions. And I wish I kept more track of these, but when I'm looking for my open license media to use in Wikimedia Commons, like you come across some of the strangest, like special cases of licenses about that are geographic specific or reflect certain exemptions to things published in certain years in Germany. And so it's never cut and dry. I think I might have found your note. Was it this one that I'm showing on my screen there? Yeah. So again, I used the search tool to find that. Oh, that's great. Yeah, well, any other words of wisdom from inside hypothesis, Nate? Well, I was gonna say, I know you guys knew this, but Rami was showing off the links to specific annotations, right? There's also up here, the same icon gives you a link to the whole document. So it opens it up with hypothesis in the sidebar enabled, but not on any particular annotation. So if you'll kind of want to share the whole document, that's a great link to use as well. Oh, great, great. Yeah, I mean, it was somewhat of a reason to do this in press books. So we didn't have to like spend time telling people how to install a browser extension. I always feel like you lose people. And I think it's smart enough now so that even it recognizes that press books already has about there does a confused thing. So, and I mean, everybody of course knows, I hope that by clicking on your little person icon in the upper right, you can also get to one sort of profile page, which is an interface that one can use to explore in this case, because I've got me as a user up here, all my annotations, but I could also look for any of cog dogs. Yeah, and that's public annotations at least. And I've tried to make a case that if you're doing like research or something like this, this is like an incredible tool, like, you know, instead of having like highlights, you know, in yellow ink and many books that you got to go flip through and find, like here's your whole annotation record along with whatever notes you applied. It's like, this is like an insanely powerful research tool. Yeah, especially, I mean, for one's own notes, of course, but one can also have time to remember what Mahas hypothesis username was, but I couldn't offhand, but anyway, oh yeah, but you can also look into what other people are doing, like at least what they've made public or what you have access to because you're in shared groups, right? So you're not gonna, you wouldn't see anything that was private that you didn't have access to this way. You can also search for, you know, broader terms. So we can see, oh, there's actually only been, so somebody mentioned them on the French version, CCCOER, but then there's some other, some other, only eight public annotations that include the term CCCOER. I know it's got some work to do, I'm just kidding. Yeah, well, which tag is yours, Alex? Loblam or lamb lob? Yeah, and you can also search by tag specifically. Yeah. If you, and... Loblam, L-O-D-L-A-M. Like this? Loblam? Yeah, there it is. And I also noticed going back to our other question about languages, right? One could, one could do a French, here's French. Okay. I'm surprised it's so low and some of the, oh, these are the, yeah, these are the, these are the documents. So you can open these up, right here. This is the documents, but then here's the annotation itself. Right. Maybe for those of us who speak Spanish. Oh, I did it wrong. There we go. Okay. Yeah, what do Kevin Durant, James Harden, David Beckland, Matthew McConaughey, I'm in common. Interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was wondering. I actually had that question. But that's, that's interesting. So hypothesis is denoting language from the operating system, right? So. Yeah, I'm guessing that that's some kind of metadata that would be pulled in from the annotator system. Yeah, I don't know the details on that. I didn't know. But just, yeah, there you go. Excellent. Alex Nauen, talking about annotation on Francaise. Absolutely. And specifically about this action area in building capacity, one of the first things I noticed is it is actually building capacity and reinforcing capacity are not the same thing. Like I think part of the way it's been translated has been adding some interesting things to the meaning of what it is. And something we noticed earlier, we had a little bit of a chat earlier about the fact that some dates were wrong in the French version. I think that's very significant in terms of it's likely been written in English first or at least that part where the typo was made was probably written in English first and then there was a typo when it was converted into French, like translated and such. And I think that's pretty significant in terms of who connects with what at what point. In terms of, so I guess I could go through a few annotations I put there. And they were coming from different origins like at different times, like five hours ago and then 40 minutes ago based on conversations we were having but also some prior ideas I had. So one thing, one annotation that I put just before I came back online earlier this afternoon. So I'd say probably two hours ago. Yeah, actually almost exactly two hours ago. It's that there's this set of resources and I'll find them again right here. So the set of resources that come from our network. So I work for Quebec's college network which is very specific. It's pretty unique. Like it's a pre-university and or vocational training and so for pre-university it's required training and for vocational training it's actually, it can be enough to get a very good job including for nurses and such. So this training for people who will be in childhood, childcare centers, right? CPE is a term in French, in Quebec, France specifically, Sainte-Pollepère-St-Enfance. So early childhood centers. So those students in college and those colleges we call them Siegeps, those students go through training to then be employees of those child care centers. When they go through the training like there's a set of resources that are so specific, right? It's really niche. And in the spirit of that, there's this nonprofit that's part of a, one of the colleges that's called the CCDMD. So Sainte-Collegiale de développement de matériel des tactiques. So they create learning material, developing learning material for colleges, right? So their resources are not technically OERs and they specifically say usage rights that they require people, those resources are offered to teachers and students in Quebec Scholars Network. They can be used only for educational and non-commercial purposes, which could be similar to NC licenses, but even then they specifically say like they maintain a copyright and all of that. They're very specific about this, which is fine. Like it's their prerogative, but personally I find that it's really the spirit of OER and because it's done with resources that are created in the communities. So in this case, Première Nation, First Nations, as people might know in Canada, we distinguish between First Nations, Metis and Inuit. So altogether all indigenous groups, but for First Nations and specifically Cree and Inuit in different parts of Quebec. And interestingly enough, as far as I hear, Cree people tend to use English as the contact language and Inuit in other regions of Quebec tend to use French. And so those resources are really meant for those communities to work in those communities and they contain basically video clips like this one is 50 seconds of toddlers playing freely, right? A baby playing freely. And then there are suggestions of exercises, including in English. So basically saying, you know, here are the objectives and those objectives come from the Ministry of Higher Education. The activity is four hours. The video is 50 seconds. And watch the video clip as a group or individually and then, you know, divide into groups and discuss these things, including identify in a professional manner what the children are learning during this free play, right? This is great pedagogical insight, right? It's exactly the kind of thing that David Wiley was talking about, those resources that are so tied to a specific situation that you can't extricate them from their context. At the same time as an anthropologist by trade, I would say I could use the same resource and adapt it, you know, keeping the whole link, the whole thing saying like, it's for my own purposes, but I can still send learners to that link and saying, well, the recommendation talks about First Nations, you know, talks specifically about the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples from 2007. And as far as I know, that date is right. Recognizing indigenous peoples' rights to establish their own national laws and, you know, a metronome of enable or put in place some national policies. Well, I find a strong connection between that recommendation and this kind of learning, especially since in those resources, there are resources about who's responsible, I think it sounds like it's alphabetical order, but it's who's responsible to teach culture, to help people for culture. So, and basically making the point that it takes a village, to raise the whole community, I don't know if I'll find it right there, but I had found it earlier and I found it, you know, immensely insightful that, you know, there are these ideas, oh yeah, because it's in interviews, it's not an observation. So yeah, to whom belongs the role of cultural transmission to children, right? That very point, it's just a short interview, I think it's a minute and a half, and it basically says, like it belongs to the entire people, to the people, so the parents, the childcare center, the school and the entire community. And those points can be made anywhere and we could annotate these because they're in the open in that sense. So they're not all yours again. I fully understand this, but I think it's a discussion to have using annotation to say, well, linking those things together can really help in terms of strengthening, like strengthening capacity, building capacity in OER, it's not just using OER or CC license resources, it's also about building links to resources that are not OER, but that we can use in an open education context. I think that's pretty strong. And speaking of linking data, I keep using the same thing, which also exists in French. So that's pretty useful and I will certainly bring it in the document, I'll put the notation somewhere, that for open data, you can have a PDF, especially a PDF, that's an image of something, like an OER very commonly, it can be a PDF, right? That's not accessible for people with site impairments and such. It's still open, but it's not very open. If you have the data in that file in an Excel file, that's probably a little bit more inclusive because you can actually get the data. And we can certainly find a lot of cases where an OER is in a format that, yeah, technically it's open and you can get to the data, but then it's proprietary software, you need to use Excel, that's not so good, then using a CSV file, which you can open with anything, including just the text file itself, all the way to RDF, which links the statements together with unique identifiers. And then at the end that you have linked open data, so we talked earlier before the recording about LODLAM, so linked open data for libraries, archives and museums. It's something that I like a lot because it's pretty unique. As far as I found, the hashtag itself hasn't been used elsewhere. So linking to that document from the recommendation, which does talk about libraries, so if I search for, yeah, this one, I'll check, yeah, I didn't quote, put that link, so I'll respond to my own annotation and maybe I should put the same hashtag because Creative Commons themselves, like the foundation itself, is providing some learning material for people in the OER movement, which is specifically connecting to libraries, archives and museums. I think we're all in that same boat and we can certainly work together. No, we've been talking about this and I think it's really good, like are we gonna get stuck in a circle of OER where it has to be something that's openly licensed with all the five R's, whereas, I mean, what you're showing doesn't prevent that from being used somehow, open for someone to learn from. So it's not like you can't create a learning experience. Yeah, on top of it, precisely, it's a kind of thing of like, no, you can't, like we tend to say non-derivative licenses are not make them, those resources, not OERs. I fully agree. If you can't adapt it, it's not an OER. We're fine with that. So it, and I'm not sure if the recommendation, I don't remember, but it's pretty clear that, so free as in no cost, gratuit in this case really means no cost. So redistribution is no cost, but also adaptation should be open and free. And by the way, because open is both libre and ouvert, there's been a lot of discussion in French as to which word we use. For OER, we do say relle, ressources educatives libres, but for open education these days, and I think you know Barbara Klass, who's been working on this journal about education ouvert et libre. She's done a webinar at OER Global Francophone, and I do hope I don't show anything in my history that's incriminating, but I think that's probably fine. She did one of those webinars specifically about defining open and free in those ways. Free, libre is basically like free in that sense, like freedom, and ouvert is basically like open in general, but we tend to associate the two. So in terms of the recommendation itself, like some of my annotations could be some things like, well, is it libre or is it ouvert? And people have endless discussions in French, like including Quebec, we tend to have long philosophical discussions about these things, about openness and freedom, and I think it's also pretty useful. Well, very well said, it's always... Yeah, so licence ouvert is not the same thing as licence libre, so openly licensed is not the same thing as a free licence, that kind of thing. So I think it really helps to put the thing there. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Alex. It's been great. Thank you.