 Kia ora, tātou everyone. Nō mai haere mai, greetings to you all and welcome to this EHF Live session. How can New Zealand companies incorporate circular economy principles to become more sustainable? Now, we all know implementing circular economy principles with organisations cannot just help them meet sustainability goals but also create new pathways to deliver value to customers and other stakeholders. This session is going to focus on how circular economy innovation can prepare organisations for this era of clean tech without compromising on their bottom line in the long run. Now that's really key, like how do you bring the economic part of it into the bottom line, right? Firstly, Edmund Hillary Fellowship is a collective of over 500 entrepreneurs, scientists, storytellers, creatives and investor change makers who want to make it impact globally from Aotearoa, New Zealand. Now today you will hear from Sheba Sasala, an EHF Fellow who is an experienced entrepreneur and the founder of Renogy, a Singaporean innovation firm with the vision of transforming Asian cities into zero waste, zero pollution and net zero carbon urban spaces using principles of circular economies. Renogy builds new circular economy start-up businesses through their venture studio and investment model. So now Sheba is also the founder of Circular Cities Asia, which is a New Zealand-based platform promoting circular economy innovation in university campuses. Now Sheba will talk about 20 minutes and then we're going to move into some Q&A. So just think about that. What are some of the sort of questions that you might want to ask? It's kind of like, how do you do it? How do you go about doing this and maybe sort of think about why should you and what is the timing? How's the timing right? So just a reminder that we're recording at the session will be available afterwards and then maybe just stay muted so there's no background talk while Sheba is talking. And if you don't want to ask your questions because there's a small group, put your hand up, you can also put them in the chat box and I will ask them on your behalf. But otherwise, over to you, Sheba. Hi, thank you, MC. Hello, everyone. My name is Sheba Susala and Edmund Hillary. Fellow, good afternoon for audiences in New Zealand. I'm logging in from Singapore. I know Lisa is in the US, so probably good evening, Lisa. Thank you for joining everyone. So it's early morning in Singapore. Fine, bright day. So really looking forward to the session. Thank you for the opportunity. So I'm the founder of Renegi. Like MC said, I'm also privileged to be an Edmund Hillary fellow along with Todd and Danny here. And we're really looking to contribute and be part of the New Zealand economy, the New Zealand innovation ecosystem and make ourselves useful. So to speak to New Zealand. Right, so a trend is we are focused on circular economy innovation. We help organizations become more circular. We build new circular economy startups to sort of put our money where our mouth is and demonstrate how circular economy can be implemented in action as well. And today I just want to talk about how organizations in New Zealand can implement circular economy principles. Almost everyone agrees that it's a beautiful, elegant, desirable thing to do. But often I see that there could be some gaps in, hey, how do we go about doing it? What's the first step? What's the second step? What is the end goal we are trying to meet? How do we even know that we are circular, right? And I think this sort of process is what we are good at at Renegi and I want to share some thoughts on that. I have a few slides, like MC said, and then if there are any questions, I would love to take them as well. So I'll just share my presentation. So yes, like I said, we are Renegi, we are Asia's first innovation firm and venture studio focused on circular economy. I hope you can see my screen now. All right. So Asia's first innovation firm and venture studio focused on circular economy. We assist organizations in becoming more circular. But at our venture studio, we also build new startups by designing them and investing in them and all of them focus on making the world more circular as we know it. So what is a circular economy, right? And the different, many a time, and this happens even at the highest levels of government and private sector. Circular economy is almost equated with recycling and as circular economy practitioners, we draw a differentiation. So firstly, let's talk about a linear economy. What is a linear economy? So the linear design is the one that's most dominant in current product as well as economic design. It is also called as the take, make, use, dispose or take make waste model. We extract resources from the earth. We make products out of them by applying labor, energy, water and other resources capital also. We sell the product. We use them and in fact, over the decades, we all know the use cycle is coming. It's becoming smaller and smaller. People are using products for lesser and lesser time. And then we dump that product or good into the landfill. This is the take, make, use, waste model, right. This is very linear because everything that we are dumping into the landfill is depleting the environment and it's becoming looped back into production. The linear economy has in fact almost single-handedly contributed to a lot of resource as well as environmental problems that we have today. Climate change in one dimension but also environmental pollution, poor air quality, poor water quality in another dimension. An improvement over the linear economy is the recycling economy. We still dump stuff into the landfill except we sort of extend the use cycle. But the important thing is this, when we extend the use of the product under the sort of label of recycling, we're actually downgrading the use of the product. A classic example I give is from my childhood where the moment my shirts got slightly older, my mom would take them and use them as mobs at home, right. So she's extending the life of the shirt instead of dumping it into the landfill, but she's actually downgrading. She's taking a great shirt and using it for a very lower value use case. And what she's practicing is actually the recycling economy, right. The alternative that could save the world, that could save humankind, help us all save money, and usher in a new economic paradigm is what we call the circular economy. In the circular economy, nothing goes to the landfill in an idealised circular economy. Nothing goes to the landfill. The technical and biological nutrients in the product are separated beautifully. The technical nutrients go back into production cycles and the biological nutrients are safely returned to the earth, rejuvenating the soil. That is a circular economy. So more broadly what is it, what is a circular economy? It's an alternative design and development framework to produce goods and services that need significantly lower materials, water and energy over their lifetime. So we've super simplified it, demystified it. We've sort of put clear metrics right now over the years. The sort of knowledge about circular economy has evolved to this extent. It works for cities. It works for countries. It works for organisations as well. And today we're talking more in the organisation context. So it's an alternative design framework for organisations to help them produce products, services, solutions that need massively lower material, water and energy for print compared to their current baseline. And that is what a circular economy would be for the organisation in their context. There are a number of methodologies out there, right? And the circular economy itself is not a new concept. It's been around for decades. It's just in the last eight to ten years that it's gained a lot of traction in mainstream thinking as well. But one of the earliest proponents of the circular economy methodology were the cradle to cradle guys. They're known as the grandaddies of circular economy. There's a great book called cradle to cradle. Please look it up by it. It's a fascinating read. In fact, the first chapter of the book is called this book is not a tree because it's made out of plastic that can be infinitely upcycled. As many times as needed. So the first chapter itself says, hey, this book is not a tree. And through the book, we are demonstrating how the circular economy works. Right? So this is called the cradle to cradle approach. It's evolved into a certification. Now organisations can go and get the cradle to cradle platinum rating. Right? They have a five point framework which talks about water stewardship, keeping materials or the highest value of use, use of renewable energies, fair wages. So in that sense, it's a very comprehensive framework that also takes into account social aspects of the circular economy. So the cradle to cradle website is very detailed. Even laymen can go and take the courses. It's their free. I think if I remember correctly. So I'll urge all viewers to go and take the courses there. They're simple. They're easy to do. And you can also get a silver rating as a layman user. What's fantastic about the cradle to cradle website is they probably have the most extensive material health database in the world. So I think they've listed a few thousand materials along with health certificates to certify whether they're circular or not. So really, really amazing framework. The second methodology that's existed for a while is from the Product Life Institute, Professor Stahler and others. It's called the product life extension method. Approach rather, right? So in this methodology, basically you're designing production solutions that never failed at last forever. So you're designing for durability. You're designing to avoid obsolescence. Repair and replacement rather than dumping, right? So that's the product life extension methodology. It's quite academic in the way they articulate things. So interested people can go to the Product Life Institute website. I think it's based in Switzerland if I'm not wrong. And look up the extensive sort of case studies and research that they've done. The third methodology is also, again, it's a systems level sort of framework. It's called industrial ecology or metabolism approach. So practitioners of the industrial metabolism approach believe that, hey, the world is linear because we are unable to track the flow of nutrients in the system. The moment we track nutrients, we can actually close the loop and make them circular, right? Therefore, the industrial ecology approach focuses on how materials are metabolised through a system, right? In the organisational context that would mean how materials are used in a supply chain from cradle to grave, right? And in fact, make sure that if there's no grave anymore, bring it back to cradle. So this is called the industrial metabolism approach. All three approaches or a blend of them work and have been used by organisations. So this is sort of the high level introduction to circular economy. There are no answers there, but this is great. What the Ellen MacArthur Foundation did and again, I would say that this is probably the most comprehensive website out there that articulates circular economy principles, case studies and thought in a very accessible manner for layman and expert alike. So I would urge everyone to go and check out the Ellen MacArthur Foundation website. Again, they have a lot of courses, a lot of case studies. It's very informative. What the Ellen MacArthur Foundation did a few years ago is that they came up with these three very elegant principles that brought together all the other three methodologies we spoke about, the Cradle to Cradle, Oracle Life Extension, Industrial Metabolism and the other frameworks out there. They brought them all together and articulated three very, very simple principles for the circular economy. And they said, hey, organisations can become circular if they do these three things. Keep materials at their highest value of use. I spoke about my t-shirt instead of downgrading it and using it in a lower value of use to mop the floors. One could have repositioned the t-shirt into another high value use case. So I had to become more circular. So keep materials at their highest value of use. Design out waste and pollution. The concept of waste and pollution, ladies and gentlemen, exists only in human societies. Nature is perfectly circular. We have introduced waste and pollution into supply chains because of our design approaches. We can do the opposite as well. We can regenerate nature. Most of our anthropogenic activity, human activity depletes nature. How can we instead regenerate it? So if you do these three things, if organisations can focus on these three things, they're automatically circular. Now, after the energy, we came up with our own three pillar framework based on the Ellen MacArthur Foundation principles as well as all the other schools of thought. And we did this because we felt organisations and we ourselves internally needed a practical, implementable framework for circularity. So we came up with what we call the re-energy circular economy framework. Again, it has three pillars as well. Organisations can become circular, ladies and gentlemen, if they become performance-based. So performance and functionality emerges as the basis of economic transaction and not product. So you're changing the incentive structures. A great example is how Philips, back in the day when they still had their lighting division, they sold it now, what Philips did was they stopped selling bulbs and instead started selling lumens to their clients. And just by doing this, the hardware became Philips' responsibility. Earlier they would sell the bulb, the filament, the glass, the product, the full product and push it out of their factory and they were done. But under this new business model, Philips committed to selling lumens and now they sort of found that they were redesigning the bulb to make sure that they were designing for usability and for ease of replacement and repair. This is how change in the business model significantly changes incentive structures and can help organisations become circular. Don't sell products, become performance-based and sell performance instead. Many examples don't sell shampoo bottles, sell the shampoo instead. Do not sell washing machines, sell washes instead. So this framework can actually be applied to most products and solutions out there. Uber is a great example of demonstrating how not to sell cars but instead sell rides instead. So become performance-based and not sell only products or solutions. The second is organisations can become nutrient aware. We spoke about how one of the fundamental challenges is that we don't know how nutrients flow through the system. The beverage company, the cola company, the FMCG company are not bad guys. It's just that after the shampoo bottle, the cola bottle leaves the warehouse they don't know where the bottle is ending up. The moment come more nutrient aware and track how your nutrients are flowing through the supply chain, you can close the loop around it and become circular. So build traceability and become more nutrient aware of how nutrients are flowing through the supply chain. Just a little note here, in the circular economy world we define technical nutrients and biological nutrients. Technical nutrients are those that can be infinitely upcycled. Biological nutrients are those that can be returned to the biosphere and rejuvenate soil. So that's what we mean by nutrients here. So how can organisations become circular? Become nutrient aware. The third, become nature inspired. I've already mentioned this. There is no waste in nature. The concept of waste exists only in human societies. Nature is perfectly circular ecosystem disturbed only by human activity. Organisations can look at how nature designs products and services and get inspired and mimic that approach and engineering principles. A whole engineering discipline has evolved along these lines biomimically, the biomimically institute in the US is the leader in this sort of approach. Janine is an awesome person and she's written this fantastic book called Biomimically 3.8. And the 3.8 refers to 3.8 billion years of Earth's existence and how organisations and cities and countries can just learn from and design principles. Many case studies, let's take the spider for example. The spider weaves a web made up of material that is between 10 to 25 times stronger on a pound for pound basis than even steel wire. But the spider does it using just biological reaction under atmospheric conditions. Whereas to produce weaker steel wire, we mine iron ore, mine coal, heat it to 600 degree centigrade to force that steel wire that is still weaker than the spider web that weaves it under atmospheric conditions. It's just incredible scientists are now studying how spiders, what kind of enzymes spider synthesise and see how they can actually replicate that engineering approach. Nature inspired ladies and gentlemen, I can give you many more examples and case studies. Organisations can become circular if they learn from nature and get inspired from nature. So this is the Renegi Innovation Principle. So how do you go circular? You can do the accreditation and standard route. Just like ESG, you could get ESG accredited similarly. You can get circular economy accreditations and meet standards. Like I said, there's the C2C certification cradle to cradle. But then there are also a couple of new ISO standards that organisations could use. And comply with it to become circular. What I would recommend, look at your products and supply chains and completely re-imagine and redesign them. So start with the goal of significant reduction in materials, energy and water in your supply chains in a defined time frame and target zero ways to landfill for your organisation throughout the lifecycle. The moment you set these as guiding principles, automatically you sort of usher in a completely new thinking around how you design products. So this to me is a great starting point beyond the accreditation and standards. Those are awesome. But to make a real lasting impact, this is your opportunity to redesign everything. Couple of case studies, Philips is one of the leaders of circular economy thinking. Very, very hardcore engineering company. They've experimented with a bunch of models. You can look up their detail case study on the Ellen MacArthur Foundation website. They've introduced equipment buyback and trade-ins for almost all their medical equipment and devices. They've gone with functionality-based business models, which I call performance-based. They call them functionality-based business models. They even have a refurbished equipment business that sells, and the equipment is priced lower than new equipment, right? And this is great for budget customers. It opens up a new segment for Philips, but it also allows them to ensure that products are kept in use. So Philips has done this successfully. There are some data points already that say Philips has saved money as well. I'm still sort of waiting more robust data, but for sure, some radical innovation there in terms of how even established engineering, manufacturing-driven organisations can become more circular. We've just started working with this organisation recently. It's a startup company in Portugal, Reflont. What they do is they work with a fashion industry and help them unlock value from the resale market. So what they do is they connect customers who've sold their pre-loved clothes. They connect them to brands and help them earn points with the brands and redeem those points against new purchases. So what Reflont is doing is, Reflont is creating new economic incentives and new business model out of the resale platform. Most importantly, they're allowing big fashion brands to benefit from resale by bringing back the customer and locking them in. So this is an example of a new startup that's forced a new business model and the Philips example is a great example of a legacy, a large manufacturing organisation that has pivoted and introduced and embedded circularity in all their thinking and approaches. So I'll stop here. I took longer than I thought I would, but happy to take questions and really excited about the possibility of working with New Zealand organisations with the goal of becoming more circular. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. I think Shiva, that was awesome. Does anyone have any general reflections or questions just offhand or experiences of your own with some different circular economy models or examples or case studies that they'd like to share? Shiva, wondering with your other organisations working with cities, what are you seeing kind of trends and patterns and interesting sort of examples at the cities level? Thanks, Todd. So at the urban scale, most interventions seem to be around landfill management and cities saying, hey, how can we actually... There's no space to dump stuff anymore. That's the reality of the world. In fact, I work with policy makers and I won't name the countries but even in emerging economies there are two issues that sort of give them sleepless nights and actually pursuing elections as well. It's not talk around sustainability or climate change. It's two things. One, hey, how do we convince our voters that we are managing the landfill situation well? The second is air quality and traffic. These are the two big issues that policy makers and politicians in cities are super worried about, Todd, even in emerging countries where I have most experience in. And they're interested in circular economy because they see that as a potential pathway to solve these problems. So solid waste especially is a huge issue, both developed economy as well as emerging markets. We've simply run out of space to dump our stuff. We've gotten away for the last two, three decades by moving landfills from one place to another but that is not viable anymore. So the best interventions have happened around landfill management and recovering material from landfills to urban mining, Todd, and that is where we've seen more success in the Philippines, in Indonesia and India as well. And I think those models will scale. The other is around use of materials. A lot of cities have actually taken steps to ban thin film single use plastics for packaging. The problem is that they haven't sort of recommended alternatives to use and that is a problem. But at least they've taken this first stick approach of banning hoping that the private sector and people will respond and innovate. So that seems to be the two big areas of innovation so far. But yes, lots more work needed to do around procurement as well. We were discussing with a policymaker recently in India about how government procurement can become more circular when they're sourcing for concrete, when they're sourcing for infrastructure and so on, how they can actually embed circularity as a criteria. That could be a real game changer as well. It's interesting you brought up concrete because there's a new start-up that came through Creative HQ that actually does that now in New Zealand. Re-circuling for concrete, which is cool because a lot of pieces that are missing that you've run out of materials-wise in New Zealand for years. Danika will go to you and then I've got a question from Ainsley that hit to Lee. Daniel Mute. I bet people wish that that button existed for me in real life. I've got a question. So we've been having some correspondence on Instagram, on the odd gram. We've been hitting up each other's DMs. So you do know what this new idea, business idea thing of mine is that I haven't launched yet? I think HF know anyway, but I've been interested from the very beginning to make it as circular as possible right down to the sanitary dispensers, which is not part of the business model, but it's something that I want to... My original idea was a dispenser in toilets and a sanitary bin that had the human waste on one side essentially and the packaging on the other so that we could start to do things. And everybody around me keeps saying no, don't do that. Just start with the minimum viable product and what you're doing is you're selling to businesses and government that you'll take care of their periods. Like they're not going to care. The customers aren't really going to care about the circularity of it. And I'm like, but I fucking care. So what's your advice for getting started on it in terms of, you know, looking at this would add a whole extra lot of stuff. Not just for me, but for anybody else as well. When launching, is it something that you say start building in from the beginning or is it a do an MVP and then build into it later and just try and sleep or drink your guilt away? And actually, and just before you answer that, Shiva, because that actually dovetails exactly into the question that Ainsley actually asked. So it's how do we change consumer behaviour so that we can support organisations that are following circular economy principles? So that's kind of, I feel what Danny, you're going in for there is that, you know, like, because you need the almost the corporate to change is such that the but then the consumer that has to almost be a pool. Is it a push or a pool effect and what are we trying to get? How do we make this happen? Great question, Danny. Thanks for that. So I'll sort of my responses at two levels and the first level is, hey, how to design a perfect circular economy product or business. And the second is, how do we design it given as startups the extreme scarce environments we operate in and build confidence gradually. So one is innovation building using lean principles and a phased approach and the first is an idealised circular economy situation. So just to sort of summarise my understanding of what you're doing and for the benefit of the viewers as well. You're selling period products and making them accessible at points of use. And there are three things when it comes to sanitary products. One is the delivery mechanism. Right now it's super packed in plastic and shipped across oceans. The first level of circularity in your business model is you're saying, hey, we don't need the packaging anymore. We'll dispense using reusable sort of infrastructure at the point of use. So that's the first level of circularity removed. You've designed out the linearity there because there's no real replacement to single use plastic in the packaging at this point given current technology. So you... Well, there is. There actually is there is for the wrapping around and the pad and that sort of stuff, but the reason I'm not pushing those products is because they just end up in a sanitary bin that gets burned or thingied anyway. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, you're just adding to the landfill, I guess. So you've sort of already innovated on the delivery mechanism. The analogy I draw is I've seen a business in Indonesia they do amazing work. They basically go from household to household and dispense FMCG products like shampoos and soaps at the point of use so they're not selling shampoo bottles. They in fact work with brands to fill them in carts and they take the carts to households on demand. Right, so house now bring out their containers take the shampoo and go back in. So it's cheaper because now they're not households are not paying for the entire bottle and sort of so in that sense, I see your business as similar. You're innovating on the delivery mechanism. The second place to innovate for you would be the materials itself. I think a lot of them are linear. Significant amount of single use plastic in the materials you're using for the products. So that's the second area of innovation. The third is if you cannot do that or even if you do that, manage to do that to ensure that these don't end up in the landfill. Right, that would if you also do BNC it would be a perfectly circular business. And I think that is the desired sort of end state. That said, I would still request you to do focus on one of these areas which already have chosen to do which is the delivery mechanism and demonstrate that the success of that before sort of venturing into circularity in BNC simply because that's how investors understand sort of product development. That's how they prefer releasing funding and that's how customers also like to accept incremental change more than destructive. So given these three parameters, I would still probably request you to do one thing at a time and go the MVP route. I don't know if I responded to that question well but I would say that you've explained it in a way you've explained it for the investors and for the end consumers in a way that other people haven't, other people it's been more about protecting myself, you know, like don't waste your money, don't waste your time and I'm like, I don't care about money, I don't care about time. So having it reframed this way, I'm like, oh you know now I can understand why I should do it that way. Okay, thank you. Thank you Danny, thanks for the question. Nice. Any other questions? Yeah, Shiva, how much have you been engaged with regenerative agriculture in the sense that this is sort of moving that whole key sector in the direction of circularity what are you seeing or how much have you been involved there? So most of the work we do is in food system start and in fact I would say, I'll stick my neck out and say this year and the next year soil health is going to be the flavor of the season for investors for people like us, I mean we are committed long term to the cause so regardless of funding ups and downs we will fight the good fight anyway for the next, I don't know how many decades but just from an investor perspective 2023-2024 seems to be the zeitgeist seems to be soil health right now so I think I see a tremendous influx of capital so far our involvement has been in terms of hey what can we add back to the soil to rejuvenate it right but we are increasingly discovering new models of carbon farming that actually could solve the climate contribute significantly to the solution to addressing climate change as well we have measured very depleted soils in countries like India and if you just work on the carbon content in them and bring them up to levels that are in tropical forests for example not only are you sequestering a tremendous amount of carbon back into the soil removing it from the atmosphere you are actually making the soil so much more fertile and conducive to multi-cropping again right with minimal use of fertilizer and so on so very very interested in the topic I think it's going to be key to long term sustenance of food production for we are already 8 billion but let's say for 9 9.5 billion people the I'll stick my neck out and say Todd the only way to produce enough food for 9.5 billion people in the longer and sustainably is to work on soil everything else we are doing controlled environment farming cultivated meat everything else is an interim solution that will help us bias time to rejuvenate the soil and regenerate it so that's how we are looking at it we have a couple of exciting ideas we are working on our energy for soil health as well great I can see we will have to have an offline conversation soon on this because I'm working with some other fellows regenerative funds for smallholder farmers etc so look forward to talking perfect so then make sure you then also Lupin you've got Mike Tatoko who's in this space you've got Josh I can't remember Josh as soon but he actually does soil health from the US you've got Aaron Clapton and there's a few others in there as well there's quite a few so you can have a good little convening on that subject now Lisa you've been patiently waiting you have a question I had two hi Sheba how are you thank you for that of course so I had two questions I'm not sure if they tie into anyone else that has questions but I'll put them out there and then you can organize them however is best for you but so one is particularly on consumer behavior because circular economy is still a new concept and unfamiliar to a lot of people I'm thinking in some cases particularly for example for Uber and Philips where they are going to have to give up the convenience of having a car readily available and light bulbs readily available at home how can we how can we combat that and then also I'm very curious if you're allowed to share the cities and countries that you mentioned are transforming landfills into a more circular way what exactly are they doing and how are they doing it awesome thank you for the questions Lisa so consumer behavior is the toughest bit again if a significant chunk of consumers start demanding circular products so much easier for businesses to justify to their shareholders and to investors the imperative of going circular so consumer behavior is key what we've realized is that is the need for simplification when it comes to consumers so we've just launched a pet food product Lisa you know about it it's called conscious creatures it's a dog food made out of insects so we've sort of started working on it last year it's finally hitting the market now after multiple trials we started off calling it a circular pet food product and no one understood it they thought it was some kind of an ingredient or engineering thing and it was actually lousy on our side to actually project it we were testing it out and finally after multiple iterations we are now calling it the most eco friendly pet food on the planet so the moment we say that we can actually see our customers eyes light up and they actually know what we mean now some of them actually grill us on why we are most eco friendly some of us some of them take it at face value but I think for us it's reinstated the importance of making messages palatable and making messages friendly to the right segments customers may or may not be interested in learning about the circular economy but they want to be part of a movement and contribute to a movement that you know does good for the planet and vote with their wallet so I think brands need to ultra simplify language and give it to them in a language they understand there'll be a segment of consumers who are much more interested than your average consumer they'll grill you so have enough information on your websites on your product brochures to satisfy their questions so greenwashing is a big problem right so you'll have to ensure that you're authentic so be authentic have a lot of information to answer all the questions but most important I think to shift consumer behaviour is they don't have time too much time to analyse when they're actually making the purchase decision give their wallets I think that is what we are seeing as sort of giving us traction so I would probably propose that is there a convenience loss for consumers and businesses offer performance rather than product Philips did the lighting pretty well in the sense that they guarantee to their customers 100% availability of lumens on demand and much more easier to do in a B2B context because their customers were commercial buildings so it's easier to say office buildings it's easier to predict how people would use the space and so on so you can be prepared and you could schedule maintenance etc of hours Uber is a much more difficult example because consumer behaviour is very stochastic very random so you don't know when the next guy is asking for a cab where he may have to wait for 20 minutes to find a cab and instead if he had a car he would have driven but ultimately I think the even in the US there's clear statistics that pre-COVID I don't know what happened after COVID we'll have to relook at the numbers Lisa but even in the US millennial consumers are opting not to buy cars because in cities opting not to buy cars because they now have access to ride sharing so that is a win for circularity so it means that they are trading off a little bit of convenience for the freedom of not being burdened with mortgage payments and EMI is on the car and having an asset that's parked in your garage for 70% of the time so definitely I think consumers have demonstrated the presence so that's I hope that answers one A and one B the second question was on cities and how they're working on circularity so most of the activity at least that's reported has been from cities in the Philippines and in India you may not feel it when you go to the cities but I can definitely tell you that the quantum of the volume of material dumped into the landfill or at least recovered from the landfill is significantly come down rather the recovery rates have gone up so I can tell you that in Indian cities the recovery of solid waste fractions from landfills and from households from businesses is very very sophisticated there are informal networks that work at the grass root level they separate the metals, plastics, the plastic cans, I know a business that just collects buttons from landfills and recycles just the buttons from clothes right so it's incredibly sophisticated it's not as organized as it is let's say in European cities or American cities but their informal networks it's evolved in a very different way and these guys are amazing with in the larger cities at least really good with recovering and reusing most solid waste fractions wet waste remains a huge problem there's no real waste because it has to be localized very instant so insect farming composting biogas are covered and reused in fact I'll share with you it's almost impossible to find copper dumped in landfills in Indian cities because it's all recovered and put it back into production right so that's how sophisticated it's become that's amazing to hear that actually like it's great to hear it but of such a large country and population that's just amazing to grasp shows that we should be able to do it in smaller countries with smaller populations other questions has she even dropped off has everyone just noticed that yeah it looks like he just dropped off he was choppy for a minute that was just me or for everybody here he comes you're back hey buddy you're on mute yeah sorry I don't know when I got bumped off at the end it was at the end of your talk you'd already finished yeah but it was a bit choppy near the end of it but I think we've kind of got the gist of it awesome thank you sorry for that so were there any other questions or thoughts there otherwise we're coming up to the end of our hour and she's been amazing lots of different avenues to go down and I feel there can be more conversations to hand have with our fellows going forward particularly as you will come into New Zealand and I can see already connections happening and with sore health yep Todd go for it oh just one other thought Shiva have you had much thought or reflection on the new EHF mission studio and how what is the maybe the ripest entry point for circular economy or the things you're looking at absolutely I did in fact I've participated in the other climate conversations I think food systems are very very ripe for circularity especially New Zealand it is a sector under threat because of developments so New Zealand is a significant producer of conventional and food produced using conventional methods and there's a wave of disruption that's going to hit us in New Zealand so I think that is an immediate sector where I think circularity can be useful not just for businesses to unlock value and because the right thing to do but also because they need to prepare for the imminent threat that's coming you know we have a lot of dairy meat sectors and I think it's very very they are going to get disrupted so it's imperative for them and I think they are they could use circularity to sort of come up to speed with the modern methods of producing the same I think end consumer services a lot of e-commerce e-commerce et cetera can happen Todd it's a small economy a lot of goods are imported so I seen that import duties can be expensive so goods and services and products are more expensive in New Zealand than elsewhere just because we have to import everything and then the economy is small more reason I think that we should have a strong repair we use refurbish culture and opportunities for businesses to sell you know products and goods to each other equipment and input goods to each other so I think there's a lot of opportunity for new re-commerce platforms damage these I think are immediate so agriculture food systems and and commerce among organizations to promote industry use repair economy I think these are two very immediate opportunities that'll actually have a immediate bottom line impact as well Todd and also like when you have the floods like we have where it has taken out you know almost 100% of New Zealand's either tomato or corn area that was for watis that they put into frozen packs or into their canned goods you know so now what are they going to do import or buy somewhere else yeah yeah no that's great love it brilliant well thank you Shema for sharing and thank you for the energy and and making more connections and making it happen and getting on and convening so thank you again and thank you everyone else for turning up and good questions and hopefully see you at some of the other sessions that are coming up thank you to everyone thank you for the opportunity thanks all for joining really appreciate it