 Hello, and welcome to Release Date Rewind. My name is Marc J. Parker, and I am a film lover, filmmaker, film celebrator. And normally, this is an audio podcast, wherever you get your podcasts on your favorite apps. But thanks to Portland Media Center, you are about to watch the video component of this show, where I celebrate movie anniversaries with my friends. Each month, I usually talk about two different movies that I love with different friends, and we talk about the making of the movies, trivia, any fun memories associated with them. So I hope you enjoy, because now, it's time to rewind. All right, everybody. She's back on the pod. My good friend, Cece Webster, a Tootsie fanatic, a Tootsie addict? I don't know. What would you call yourself when it comes to Tootsie, Cece? I'm just a lover. I'm a lover. A Tootsie lover. A Tootsie roller. A Tootsie roll pop. I don't know. There's something in there. There's something. Yeah. There's something that will workshop. Yeah. But it's so nice to see you. Thank you so much. I know things have been crazy. You are a very busy lady. Holidays also are just busy. We were talking a little bit about Christmas and all that. So you had a good time. Storm, luckily, didn't really, did it snow rain for you guys in New York or no? We had a little bit of rain. Yeah. It was really frigid temperatures that affected up north in New York state. As you probably saw, there was a lot of problem in Buffalo. But we're close to the city. We're close to the river. We really, I think we were kind of in the tiny part of the country that just didn't really get bothered too much at all. So yeah, it was good. It was a good holiday. I'm excited to talk to Tootsie and also just to kind of go down memory lane in hearing about, you know, this time period. Our kind of film history. So 40, 40 years ago, 82. And it's so funny. So Cece and I were saying offline. I remember it like in the back of my mind, like, oh yeah, I think Cece likes Tootsie. But I forgot that not only do you like it, you've talked this movie. You know this movie. How many times do you think you've seen Tootsie in your life? Well, you know, you say that and now I feel like I'm going to forget everything I know about it. That's all right. That's how it goes. I, you know, I honestly, it's funny. I have taught this film. I didn't see it too early in my youth. It wasn't really until college that, and that was in the 90s that it kind of came to me. And then because I was so, you know, artsy and moody and, you know, thought I was so cool and I was learning about film really for the first time. I was like, Oh, Tootsie, you know, what is Tootsie going to give me? Meanwhile, you know, my professors are, you know, doing all these great things about the owners of Tootsie as a story. But it wasn't until I was in graduate school at Columbia and I was TAing for Andrew Serres and his American film history, 1960, 1990 class that he showed this film. It was on his syllabus and having to kind of see it through the, you know, co-eds eyes, the, you know, kids, the college kids eyes, even though it was only a little bit older than them. Thinking about, you know, the shape and the nature of how the story is told and just like the comedic timing and also just that point. This is the early 2000s. The nostalgia I had for actors like, you know, Dabney Coleman and Terry Gar and even seeing those familiar faces like Estelle Getty and Christine Ebersole and these people that were just part of my life. I found a new love for it in a way that I was kind of overwhelmed by. And then since then, it's just like every time I see it, every time it's on, every time it was on a pay channel or something, it's like, I got to listen to that silly song go to. And the montage and I've got to like watch Michael Dorsey get through all this. And there's really just not a part of it that for me is dull. No, I completely agree. So I just, yeah, I just love it. I really do. Oh, I love that so much. That's so interesting. I figured because you love it so much, I just figured you saw it as a kid, you know, maybe on VHS or something, but no, you saw it a little later. I love that. Well, I admit this is my first time I'm finally watching the full thing like from start to finish. I don't know what took me so long. I think, you know, I've always known about it. I've seen the musical. I saw the stage musical was on when it was on Broadway. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Funny. I had always, of course, everyone kind of knows the story, right? It doesn't take long to at least know the gist, right? Yeah. And so I saw the show with my friend Monica years ago before it closed. I know it kind of, it didn't come and go. It won some Tonys. I remember it was pretty popular, but, um, and I love the musical, but the movie is better as, you know, they usually are. And wow, I'm so happy. I finally checked out the full movie. I had seen a clip or two, but it's good. It made me, I kept, because I was like folding boxes, candle boxes for Greg, for the candle. So I'm like putting stickers on things. That's usually what I do when I'm like, like rewatching movies, you know, for this show. And oh my God, I was so delayed on the boxes. Greg's like, do you have them for me? I'm like, oh my God, I'm watching Chudsy. That's so good. You know, it is surprising how it's holding up because obviously in terms of gender politics and our, you know, current climate, there's a lot of stuff in there. There's all kinds of odd stuff, but what's, I think at the core of it all is that similar to something like some like it hot or even a movie I love, which I know you're going to laugh a lot about. She's the man. Oh, I love she's the man. Oh, one of the best. But there's this thing that happens with mistaken identity. I'm not going to talk about the like gender side of it too much, but just mistaken identity that for me, I'm a total sucker for it. I enjoy it. I think it's super funny, but I think they, that's what I think at the end of the day, you know, Sydney Pollock is having fun as a director with the idea of, you know, the predicament of the secret and how you deal with that secret and all the funny things that you can do that kind of surround that. Let me tell you about my client, Michael Dorsey. He was a fine actor, maybe a great actor, but for every role he wanted, there was a reason why he wasn't right. Sorry, you're too tall. I can be shorter. No, I can't use you too short. Oh, I can be taller. Too moody. Next. Too old. Too stubborn. You're too much trouble. Too tough. Too tough. Too pushing. Too difficult. Michael, no one will hire you. Just watch me. Yeah, I think you're so right. I think it's like a laugh. It's pretty much a laugh every few minutes. There are tons of underhanded jokes that don't even seem like jokes that are, when you rewatch it again, you're like, oh my God, you know, I forget there's that one joke. That they're talking about like how close to get on the camera or how far it goes. How far back should I go? And he's like Cleveland. Because, you know, she doesn't look that beautiful on camera. And those kind of things were just like that to me. The timeless. They're timeless jokes. I'd like to make a look a little more attractive. How far can you pull back? How do you feel about Cleveland? Great script. Super, super smart writing. Yeah. And yeah, I think you're right. I think that it's, you can't help. There's definitely music at the David Gruss music and also, of course, the songs written for the movie are. Right. Kind of outrageously ridiculous. They are ridiculous. Although, you know, I have to say, I quite like the song during the montage when we have close-ups of the beautiful nails and the eyes, you know, go to see go. Even though I know it's very simple. I love that the song that actually got all the popularity and the Oscar nom. Which one that that's called. Why can't I not remember it now? I haven't, I haven't written down for myself because, oh, it might be you. It might be you. It might be you. That one. Yes. Yes. I couldn't even remember the title because it's a little sleepy. I don't know. It's the 80s. Like I wanted something a little fun, but I, you know, I guess I understand like, okay, that's the more serious song. But I'm like, no, go to see go. That's my song. There's probably a podcast out there and hey folks, if you know of it, let me know. But I feel like, you know, Arthur the movie. And of course, Christopher Cross wrote Arthur's theme, which, you know, is a classic. A movie that doesn't necessarily deserve a ballad. It's a comedy that has this ballad. And I wonder if there was just this thing happening in Hollywood where there was a success, radio success with these songs. And like this, I think it's Stephen Bishop is the guy behind go to see go. And it might be you. And I feel like they're going for like the radio edit, like ways to, you know, again, maybe also get an Oscar nom or win an Oscar and be on the radio. Because I feel like you're so right that the tone, the feel of that song. I mean, I, although I understand there is love happening is so absolutely trickly. Like it's so saccharine. It's it's so kind of like, like you said, this movie. And I completely agree. It might be 40 years, 40 years old everybody, but it pops. I mean, before Dustin becomes, before Michael becomes Tootsie Dorothy, right? It's it pops. And then it pops even more. And so it's very lively. And so the song, the theme song is not that lively. And also for me, and we'll get into it, I'm sure when we, you know, break it down more, but like the romance is like lower on my list of storylines. I don't know. I look at it like when I was watching, I was like, oh, I care more about Terry Gardner than I do. Jessica Lang. I care more about like just the just acting. And I think that's what I really appreciate about this movie. It's a movie about just hustling and like trying to, you know, perfect your craft and book the gig, you know, and then the other kind of crazy stuff happens just once you book the gig, you know, I am so with you as you probably know from my little tiny video I made, Gotham Writers Workshop asked me to highlight a fave for their social media at the beginning of the pandemic. Terry Gar is one of my favorite actors of this time period in general. And not only do I love her, but I also am with you that I love the underdog of her character and of what she's kind of working toward and her funny relationship, lack of relationship with, you know, Michael Dustin Hoffman's character. And she is so endearing and so she feels so real and well rounded to me where Jessica Lang's character too. I learned a little bit. I was able to listen to this great podcast. I guess it's Phil Rosenthal and I'm forgetting the other writer that he does a podcast with called Naked Lunch. They had Elaine May on and she's never really talked very much about anything and she's never been on a podcast. So of course I had to listen. Oh, yeah. She said that Jessica Lang was someone that Sydney Pollock really wanted to be in the movie. They really hadn't written a character that or either would work for her and she wrote the like scene where they're in the bed at the farm and Jessica auditioned with and of course like they loved her and that's also why there's this kind of odd like Southern kind of bent going on. She's naturally a Southern woman, Jessica Lang and has that about her that because you know, you think about like, where is this farm they're going to? Like I live in Westchester County, which is essentially where they're going and there are some farms. There's many farms in Westchester County, North of me, but it's almost like they're going to like the South. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like how long was this drive guys? And then Charles Durning being dad who I love. Oh yeah. I love him so much, but he's like not the same. Like it's almost like it's a fictitious fantasy farmland. They kind of build for the Jessica Lang character and the song is the same thing. It's like this fantasy thing that's going on. And I agree with you. It is to me like the oddest dream feels like a fantasy dream sequence, the whole farm thing of the whole movie. I love it. I mean, great, great comedy and some great, you know, serious kind of stuff there a little bit. You know, dad says to Dorothy, you know, once, why can't I, I can't remember just Glenn's character's name is Julie. It's Julie. Yes. Yeah, I don't remember either. You know, Julie goes to bed. She says, be good. Be good. And I wrote in my notes, gulp, because Dorothy Dorothy is looking like, Oh God, I, you know, because that's what, and that's so interesting. Cause I knew I saw, you know, in the long list of writers, it's really only a few are credited, but I know there are some uncredited writers like Elaine May and I know she, she worked on the birdcage script. So she knows, she knows some great like kind of cross-dressing stuff, which is, I mean, she is so funny. But, um, yeah, that, that whole farm thing is, is, you're right. It's so idyllic that it's dreamlike, but then a lot of the really memorable stuff for me of like, Oh shit. Like we have a problem like dad, girl, you know, in bed with me, like really good stuff there. Like what is Michael going to do? You know, he's really put into a serious predicament there. And I mean, I just think too, though, if like, if you had different actors in a different time period, the, the ability for it to kind of get modeling with piano playing and the missing of mom, right? And the kind of little details like that, that I feel like, you know, we don't do, we're not as, I think a lot of films, modern films aren't as messy in some ways. They don't, they don't kind of push it a little bit. They, they, if they haven't set it up super clearly, they're worried that they can't have a moment like that. But that's the kind of moment that for me makes the comedy even funnier is that you have these real human moments of, you know, like you're talking about too of, you know, be good and, you know, the, the piano and the kind of sorrow. And then you have this like ridiculous comedic side to it that just, I think it hits harder for me. So once Julie goes to bed, that's when we kind of touch on some interesting, you know, because I think actually this movie has aged pretty well. I was most curious to see like, okay, let's see how like, what homophobic, transphobic jokes are there. I didn't, you know, I didn't think it was that bad actually for being a 40 year old movie. There were only a couple of times and it's more, it's mostly with Charles Dernig's character in my perspective. He's, but we sort of, it kind of makes sense. Cause by the end, I know we're kind of jumping around, I mean, he feels duped. He's like totally, he feels totally tricked. His daughter feels totally tricked. So I could understand why he sort of says something at the end, like, you know, do even like girls or stuff, you know, stuff like that. But it's in that scene where Julie leaves him alone and he talks about like roosters don't try to lay eggs. He says not all men are equal. You know, there's some really interesting kind of men versus women stuff that is still kind of rings true today. Right? I agree. I think that I do. I feel that it might just be also that someone who is not necessarily, you know, have struggled with my gender identity. I don't know exactly how some of the jokes would ring for some other folks, but I'm with you too that I actually think that it's not, it doesn't seem to be pointing fingers at or being really cruel about identity as much as it is just kind of talking about men versus women as a kind of whole, like the, you know, the details. It's interesting, though, because in this Elaine May interview, she talks about, you know, the, and I'm going to go into the origin here for one second on kind of how the script came to be. That's all right. Yes, please. This was Dustin Hoffman's project from the beginning. Like he knew of this play. He wanted this to happen. He had Robert Evans help him get the rights. Robert Evans being very famous film producer at the time, you know, produced The Godfather amongst other big movies. And, you know, it was his baby. It was Dustin Hoffman was going to make this movie and he was going to figure out how to do it. And that's also why there are so many different writers is because it didn't come from an origin story of a writer. It came from a play that then needed a screenwriter and there's lots of different screenwriters. But Elaine May in this podcast is talking about how when she came in after there was a bunch of already adaptation happening with the play and everything, the kind of main thrust of the jokes were about this idea of him pretending to be gay and be kind of in drag and going to bars like that. And the joke of like not being gay, but being in drag. And then also a lot of this kind of joking about like men in women's bathrooms and like the whole that whole thing of, you know, and she basically was like, by the way, guys, none of that's funny. And in this meeting she was having with Cindy Pollack. And I think few of the other writers in comes Dustin Hoffman at that exact moment. And he goes, you know, Cindy, I don't like this dress. I think it makes me look fat. I don't like how it works around me. I think I think Dorothy is prettier than this. And it like was like a bell for her in her brain. And she goes, this is the movie. This is this idea of how much he cares about his craft. Like, and that is very nice. He's a very nice guy that that's what he's worried about. He's not worried about the gender politics or, I mean, it's not that he has to kiss, you know, the head of the creepy doctor actor. Oh my gosh, right? But that's not, you know, what he's worried about is, you know, the respect to this character that he's playing and the love he has for her is a strong woman. And so it's interesting to think about, you know, they were leading to a place that I think would have been a lot more problematic. And they ended up in a place that I think is a lot more universal and playing more with that idea of switch identity versus only male V woman. Yes. What about this thing? I hate the way the horizontal lines make you look too hippy and it cuts me across the bus. It's ultimately about an actor who is just so desperate, hungry and also committed. And that's when it gets funny. He's committed and it's a bit meta because you're right. It's very Dustin Hoffman, you know. So yeah, that's when it's so funny is that he wants a gig so badly he gets it, which we'll have to talk about the whole Terry Gar situation because he's breaking her heart all the time. But you know, yeah, he gets it. And now how is he going to do a good job and totally be Dorothy, you know, so yeah, that's so much funnier than any sort of like, yeah. Yeah. And stuff. Yeah. Going into gay bars and having all these different scenes and playing around with the kind of, which in the eighties we know there was a lot of really awful kind of like gay for play jokes. You know, there was just a consistent, you know, I mean, how many different movies do you watch now and you're like, Oh, like why are they making fun of that particular character that way? It seems really awful. Plus this came out, you know, Reagan was president AIDS. The AIDS crisis was happening. So they could have really, I guess that's also why I was surprised. They could have really been more fearful of just men and drag and all this stuff. They could have been way more, you know, front loaded with it. But I think that, you know, I would feel comfortable showing this to an eight year old and having the chat about some of the funny things and, you know, some of the identity stuff, but I wouldn't think it would, you know, put any kind of nastiness in the minds of, you know, kids who might watch it or anything like that. I do think there are probably folks out there that would not want to watch it and would find it still offensive. But I think that the intention behind it was, was not to point and make fingers. And I think in fact, I think Dorothy comes out to be the best character of them all. She's a better person than Michael. We're talking about in terms of how he relates to his world around him. And, you know, she's a better worker. She's a better communicator. She's an icon. He creates an icon and what's the famous line he says at the end to Jessica? I was a better man when I was a woman with you. Something like that, right? Yeah, I mean, Dorothy is like amazing, right? And it's, it's even more amazing that she's not a beautiful woman. You know, she can't be that's like not possible with Dustin's, you know, face and body and all that. But yeah, like she's someone everyone, well, mostly everyone roots for. I know Dabney Coleman like gets sick of her, the director of the, of the, what is it? Southwest general, you know. But yeah, and it's funny cause I always wondered what's with the poster? Why is she in front of the flag? But she kind of does sort of become like, you know, like I love seeing the fans crowd around her as she gets more and more famous on this show. Right? Yeah. Well, I also, I think it's, it's interesting that as a woman watching this, a younger woman, when I first saw it in full, I was inspired by the idea that standing up for yourself and being bold and speaking your mind, it was fun to see that succeed for a woman character. It's kind of, it's kind of awful to think that it needs to be a man dressed up like that to have the, the gumption to just do what they're going to do and have that male privilege or whatever you want to call it. That's true. But as a young woman, I know that it's technically of actor, male actor in drag performing, but I took a lot of like inspiration from the kind of Dorothy character and I got such a kick out of the strength of that character and, you know, getting back at those Dabby Coleman types. Yeah. I mean, for me, it was like, I had the same kind of fun I have when I watch nine to five, speaking of deaf women, women pushing the boundaries, watching a man kind of realize how hard it is for women and also pushing boundaries. So I might be, I might be, you know, incorrect in that feeling, but I did have inspiration from it. And when I watch, I still get inspired by the idea of, you know, not holding back when you have an idea of not letting something go forward that you think is not a good, not something good. Because, you know, here's the thing, Michael, I know Michael's not a likable character, but it's not that he's unlikable. He has a lot of fun qualities. He's just, yet he's a bit of a womanizer. We see him kind of, you know, treat Terry guard not so well at all, right. And different women. He's just, he gets distracted, you know, Christina Ebersole and everything, but he really does learn about women, which makes us like him, that he does take women seriously. It's just his love interest with Jessica Lange gets a little complicated for me, where I almost wonder what would the movie have been like if there wasn't really a love interest, he just ended up really supporting her and fighting for her, you know, from the network. And you know what I mean? Like that's, I just wonder what a version would be where there isn't really as much romance, you know. I love that idea. I would absolutely love if that was, if there was a remake of this story, maybe not the musical, but another movie where it's just about having a friendship, finding a real friendship with a woman. And I think there could still definitely be the, you know, betrayal of that. The same way it is now in the story, but instead of it having to be romantic, it's just, I thought I could trust you. I thought you were my really close friend and I had made a new really close friend who understood how I was feeling as a single mom and how it is to be in this relationship. And I think that's such a great idea. And I feel like that would, it would help me a lot with that particular storyline like you is my least, I think Jessica Lange's such a great actor. So I'll just like watch her do anything. I genuinely love watching her. I love sitting, seeing her like hang out in her fancy apartment. I know, right? Like white wine. I'm like, I'm riveted just watching her like, stir a pot. But at the same time, I think you're so onto something there because that's where the, I get blurred. Boy, did he show us. He auditioned for the female lead on a soap opera and became the hottest new actress in America. And you know what? No one knows his new identity, not even the girl he's madly in love with. Soon everyone will know that she's Dustin Hoffman and he's Tootsie. But yeah, I kind of viewed it at the end when they're walking away together where she does warm up to him again. She's giving him another shot. I kind of just viewed it as like, all right, well, they're going to be friends for a while before they try to, you know, be romantic. Cause that's like real, realistic to me is like, they're going to just walk off and they're just like buddies, you know? Yeah. And they're going to like support each other. And you know, you're right though. I think you're right about the studio system at the time in Hollywood in general, is that you really couldn't get away without there being kind of a romance situation happening. But how great would it be? You know, we're modernizing the story here a little bit, but that they become really close friends and maybe also the Sandy character or Terry Garg character is, you know, looped in in some way, you know, and becomes like they end up being, you know, a couple at the end because he realizes what he's been doing and what it's like. Right. And that she is fantastic and he's been ignoring her, you know, and all that stuff. And I feel like it could be. Love it. Right. It could be really fantastic because that is also the other, I don't have so much of a problem of him being tough on Terry Garg. I've read a few articles where people are like, oh, he's such a jerk that he's, when he's like, you know, coaching her at the beginning and he goes, stop being a doormat. Right. I love that. I feel like that's acting class. He's just being a good coach. I don't think there was any. Exactly. That's how I felt about it too. And obviously the romantic side of it, she's so absolutely someone you care about. Like naturally, I think as an actor that almost like, like if it was a different actor, we might not feel the same way where we're just like, where our heart goes out to her so much when she's waiting at that dinner and like has, you know, like by the phone. The two things I would love, because I really do think there's so much about it that for me like hits on all cylinders that I would love there to be some redemption for Terry Garg's character. I agree. You know, a little bit less heavy on the romance. The big great scene where she says, I'm responsible for my own orgasm. Right. And she's, she's found out that Michael, you know, is in love with someone else and all that and her heart's broken. You know, she's professional. Right. She's not going to let this little love triangle get in the way. She's still going to do the play. Right. Cause again, it's all about actors. It's all about acting. This is, you know, they're crazy. They're stirring about. Right. I'm in love with another woman. Thanks so much for watching. Next week we'll be part two of this discussion. And in the meantime, please follow release date rewind on Instagram.