 Coffee first. Are you recording already? Oh, hi I'm a little delirious at this point All right, we'll start why not? My name is Nikki Acosta. I work at Cisco spent a lot of time at Rackspace before Joining a little startup called the MetaCloud was there for a whopping three months Before we were acquired by Cisco and as an evangelist I get I don't know if it's the it's a pleasure to sit between Product engineering and sales people So I have a good time and I work a lot with product night I really have seen in the schedule in the past few years that the schedule has lacked any kind of real Product focus sessions. It's all about like opensack. It's all about you know stuff You do on top of opensack, but it was kind of missing that piece in between so I sent out a tweet saying hey Does anyone want to do a product management? Panel and these are my lucky winners, so I'll let you guys introduce yourself go for it Aaron There we go. These are the people who build products for that So hello everybody Aaron Delp director of technical solutions at solid fire Kind of the interesting aspect. I probably bring to this is we have a product based on open stack But it isn't a product and I'll kind of talk about that a little bit today Hi everyone, my name is Shamal Tahir I'm from EMC opposite CTO and my day job is a technologist I'm also heavily involved in the open stack and it's community initiatives around product working group and product management lately So I'll be glad to talk about that a little bit as well My name is Jim Hasselmeyer. I'm with the emcee. I'm a product manager any emcee I've been a product manager probably the majority of my career or managed product management So I've always been very interested in product management got involved in open stack about two and a half years ago and my particular area of interest and focus is How the product management discipline gets applied to open source kinds of projects Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Andre Bearfield. I'm senior director of product at Blue Box Group so we I was the first product person at this small company and have Led the development of the build of our Blue Box cloud product based on open stack Awesome got my coffee. How many product managers do we have in the room? How many people in the room love product managers? Are there any sales people in this room? Okay, good They don't they don't listen to us. They just do it. Oh, they sell stuff. We don't have They want a roadmap all the time. They want you to commit to a roadmap Jeremy knows what I'm talking about Yeah, they want you on sales calls. So first thing you mentioned Chanel was the product working group and I think this is huge for open stack and I've already heard criticisms. Oh, no, there's a product working group You guys are trying to drive the roadmap in open stack so can you give us in an overview of what the product working group is how it came about and Dispel that rumor if you if you'd like. Yeah, absolutely So the group actually came about I think at aus-con There was a board of directors meeting and some people were hanging out after the meeting and they kind of came about so, you know what? The integrated release is not a product and open stack is not a product per se itself And so but it was like at the same time How do we instill this discipline of you know requirements into the ecosystem? Etc as well as get the information transparently available to people So effectively was just an idea in aus-con in Paris We had a session that was actually called hidden influencers where it was like all this have products are that are either consuming open stack or Built in or part of the open stack ecosystem, but at the same time Let's figure out how we can bring this practice into open stack so it was more of an idea of seeing who if people are interested we had about a hundred people in Paris show up and We did a collection of you know, which companies and which vendors were in the room And there was about 60% of the open stack code base was represented in the room so in in Vancouver, we've officially formed and Really, it's not about you know driving requirements saying okay You will do this in tossing something over the fence and hoping that it gets done There's three main things. We're trying to drive actually one is Collect what the state of each product project is and where the focus areas are so basically collecting feedback from PTL's core teams and Getting that into like a master Deck if you will that people can see and read and access so it's a sharing information It's already the plan for projects The other piece is there's multiple working groups in open stack right like the product enterprise working group Tell go working group ok NFV now, etc. And it's how do we enable all those? groups that have subject matter expertise or specific requirements for what they do back to the project teams as well So effectively the best way to summarize is where we're funnel both ways So we're taking requirements and funneling them hopefully to the project Project teams so they are aware that the requirements are there and they can choose I mean the PTL still and the core team still controls what the project is doing But at least there there's visibility for requirements And then the next step is what they're doing from a project perspective How do we get that friction back to the users and operators and understanding that a lot of those requirements are coming from users of Those vendors right absolutely and that's the key I mean we act we act as an aggregation point right because we all talk to we all talk to customers a lot So we can drive a lot of different perspectives and to open stuff from requirements perspective Jim are you involved in that as well? Have you been participating? I've been involved in some of it And I was at the hidden influencers meeting in Paris and there was a mid-cycle meet-up in Palo Alto The VMware hosted where a bunch of people got together and some of that got started over the last few weeks I haven't been as involved as Chamile has been and I guess one of the things that as I've been thinking about The progress that OpenStack has made and the or the ecosystem is made and what I see what the product working group has done I think they've made some extremely significant progress The perspective that I kind of came into this Topic around in terms of how does product management apply to an open source? Ecosystem was about a year year and a half ago I started working with some businesses who had revenue responsibility They were in a line of business and they had applications that they were moving into an open stack environment And I saw all the needs that they had from OpenStack as a as an ecosystem and as an infrastructure platform But they didn't have a way to Get those requirements into the open stack ecosystem and on top of that their day jobs were so Busy and they were under so much pressure. They weren't in a position to be a contributor So they had needs out of the environment But they didn't have the bandwidth themselves to be able to write to actually contribute the code that might have solved some of the Problems that they had so as someone who's sort of been Fascinated with product management overall. It's what I love to do Fascinated by open source overall and OpenStack as I was getting involved in that I thought wow, what what can an OpenStack do in order to make that happen? I actually blogged a little bit about it about nine months ago Randy Bias wrote a kind of a provocative article about six or nine months ago and I guess one person's opinion when I see what the product working group is doing I think that's exactly the kind of infrastructure and the process and I don't want to say process because sometimes process comes across as Heavy and I don't I don't mean to imply that but it's a it's a methodology That I think OpenStack really needs and it's got the right structure in my mind in order to be effective in that regard Yeah, and and to add one more point to that You go back to gosh, you know like when Nikki when you and I were in Portland However many years ago at the conferences and who was really driving the requirements at the time, right? It was it was developers developers developers, right? And but as this gets bigger and as this gets to the size and the hyper growth of these Conferences and the interest in the industry How do we not necessarily? Take focus away from the developers by by any means but how do you get as much user input from the field from the real customers? that are either interested today and want to drive new features or Potential customers coming in that maybe need something. That's not there. I mean that's really you need those additional input channels And I really think that's where the product working group really came into focus and that's we really support it Andre, do you have a comment on that? I was just about to but then Aaron said everything I was about to say Sorry That's awesome So in thinking about and by the way, there is a roadmap you presented the roadmap the group presented the roadmap So we there is a roadmap floating around out there. Where can people find that roadmap? Yeah, so we're actually going to publish it to the open stack dev mailing list So hopefully you'll be there and hopefully everyone can access it And actually it's not the roadmap because we're still starting process what we want to show was here's the data We've collected here's one way of representing that data and what we want to speed back actually is are we are we Representing in the right way. That's meaningful to people as well So we have data already, but now we're figuring out like what's what's the right view if you know you'll tweet that out Right, so people want to follow you they can get that. It's a good idea. Yeah. Yes. I mean yes So how much did you want to say something Andre? I was I was gonna just make a tiny comment about the working group I actually only learned about it after getting here this week And I attended had the opportunity to attend a session on Monday, and it's mesmerizing I had the opportunity in March to go to the mid-summit ops meetup in Philadelphia And I was just like blown away by the way There's mostly operators there some developers and how the conversations continue to revolve around this Question of how do we get the information that the operators are experienced just the operators to the to the developers and a few developers They are saying we were wondering This is a quote. We were wondering what you thought about that and I just think that's so amazing And I think that's a great place for product to kind of come in But I do also think it's a really really sensitive area specifically because in most organizations that sell a product Someone who's in product management is frequently also the owner of a given product in this case that Probably is not appropriate So there's some segmentation of the roles where a pto is actually the product owner With regard to the projects that are out there So I think there are some more questions I'm really excited about the opportunity to be a part of the working group to kind of figure out how we modify the traditional way that we approach products in our individual organizations and apply like those sorts of ideas To to an open source Open-source solution there are arguably many many more operators out there. So this you know the How do we balance the needs of operators versus the needs of developers and open stack and the products that we build and in the project itself You got to be both You know, it's got to be the operators need to have Things to make their life easier and the develop the people who are developing solutions on open stack need to have the right tools to Be able to develop the solutions that need to be built In a role that I had previous to what I had right now We were basically Operating an open stack based public cloud And so, you know, we use the term a lot under cloud and over cloud under cloud being the operators and over cloud being the customers who were developing Who were provisioning infrastructure services and developing solutions? And you got to meet both of them. It's got to be easy to operate and it's got to be easy to use That's kind of the bottom line. All right. So the the other thing I was gonna do that quickly too is this this wrinkle of You know, what do you do when when open stack is a collection of product projects that you can kind of Put into a release and you could if you want to call that release a product But then what if you want to build full solutions around that, right? and that's the challenge for for my company comes in where We basically want to make open stack Easier to consume because at the end of the day it is going to drive in my instance more storage but how do I make that and basically bundle all of that up to where I have to match a Open stack release cycle and Put that with you know a product release cycle of Storage a product to really cycle around compute product release cycle around networking and all have though that come together Magically once or twice a year in the right times to make it easy to operate and consume to where it isn't Right after you put it out. It's obsolete And that is probably one of the biggest challenge my company faces is how do you take this? You know product and bundle it into other Products at the end of the day so you can actually deliver something that that the users want to consume sure and and that's That's a significant challenge, you know, and it's it's one of those there's different challenges there of Do you put it around a release and around a summit? So you can get some interest in it. That's great But what if you know somebody's hardware comes along and revs mid-year and they stop selling the old stuff and you have no choice Right and and so there's all these vectors that kind of come together that yeah, certainly You know as a as a product manager just makes everyone's head spin even more than usual You're talking about roadmap roadmap roadmap, you know when you want to try and lay out all of those Complications and put it on on a one big roadmap. It's yeah We we have we've had long meetings where we just kind of throw our hands up and go. We'll talk about this later With open-sets frequent release cycles You know just because something is released doesn't mean it's stable. We all know that you know If you want to add extra features, you know, how should you do that? Should you write it in extensible fashion? Should you try to get it put into open-stack first and then consume it back like how do you balance? building a stable product that customers are going to pay for knowing that There's going to be a new release in a couple of months like are people unfairly bored and when they're saying oh I have releasing my product three weeks after trunk like what does that mean anything? Well, so blue box we build basically deliver private cloud as a service, right? So we build we Have our own data centers. We buy the hardware We manage open-stack on top of on top of that hardware and we deliver API endpoints and horizon dashboard to our customers Right, so we build a bunch of different clouds. We have a bunch of operators who work a bunch We're 67 person company so relative to these other companies knows very different But one of the things that we have challenged we have had We have fought with is how do we approach following the releases the open-stack releases? So when our first product was released we built on Havana, we had to stick with Havana We were going through the process of trying to figure out how to build Deliver stable clouds that customers could depend on and we actually ended up just leapfrogging ice house because we were still in the thick of trying to figure out and Solidify an operational cloud that we could deliver over and over and over and over again to our customers We did leapfrog ice house and we're now in Juneau and we've made a bunch of operational improvements We understand a lot more about open-stack We understand a lot more about how to upgrade open-stack in place. It's still not perfect But we're learning a lot about how to do that and so what we've determined to do is make sure our customers want cloud services They like open-stack, but they don't necessarily require open-stack They need to utilize the cloud and so although there probably are some benefits to following along with trunk What we actually need to do is provide reliable cloud services and be able to Continue to extend on a reliable cloud for our customers And so what our intention is to do is to deliver additional features and follow as close along as we can to the To the community as long as the release is stable and the upgrade path is seen as seamless as Wherever we are which is getting better and better. Should customers expect at times instability for that reason? Is that is that cloud in general like is is should you just expect that there will be instability? I Hope not but I think that a lot of customers maybe do experience that and I think that We do have some customers ask us why aren't we on the latest release like I'm sure in July new customers will say What about kilo why not kilo and the point is for us? We need to deliver a reliable cloud and that needs to be the top That needs to be the number one objective because cloud service is what the customer wants So so do you feel like in that regard that your products and services your marketing that you do is competing with the marketing that The open-stack foundation does That is an incredible question I'm gonna refer to the face I'm making on this on this photo up here. I don't know is that a smile What is that? What am I doing up there? Do you guys feel that way? Do you feel like there's so much hype around open-stack? I think it's it's it's a balancing act right because on one hand you need the velocity Because you want new features you want you want to engage the community want velocity and you want momentum So you're kind of constantly pushing the envelope you're you're developing new features You're improving existing ones constantly But that is what you're doing from a open-source project perspective from a product perspective You're your value proposition what you're selling and what you're offering is a little different So I think companies that are providing open-stack distributions and solutions are providing their customers an experience that they are They can stand behind and I think what the open-stack community is is you know Basically advertising or marketing is the momentum and the community of the project itself You know I've thought about this for about 60 seconds. So it's not like I've put deep thought into this over a long period of time But your question made me think of the model that if you think of the classic Jeffrey Moore crossing the chasm model In a given group of people that are maybe customers or population that are you know multi-tenant cuss or customers of a multi-tenant cloud They're gonna be some that are always in that early adopter stage. They're always gonna want the newest greatest thing And they're willing to pay the price of getting that newest and greatest thing Even if they don't know what it means though. Well, no, I mean like how many people know about everything that's happening No, I mean I'm assuming in this segment that I'm proposing that they do know what it means And they know that it could be unstable and they're willing to live with that in order to get the new hot thing And then they're gonna be other people that are gonna say no, I want to let it bake I want to let it age I'm sure yeah, yeah, the mainstream adopters kind of stuff And so I think for it would seem to me that for a given For an organization that's doing a service offering They need to understand the distribution of that of their customer base in order to make that decision of Do we err on the side of going aggressive and adopting things immediately or do we let stuff bake and roll it out as it Yeah, and that that really comes down to again as as the the role of product management here what who is the user or the the target audience right because kind of Andre's point a little bit to of If your user wants the latest and greatest are they the right user for you and your product to consume and to Give you another example of that It's it's much more to than just taking the latest release and all of the projects there in You know as we get more and more projects which projects go into that which projects get tested and then also We do you know in my instance? It's something as simple as you know when we did our first version of our reference architecture We used you know foreman and a bunch other things like that to stand everything up and get it going because we needed to Kind of add that that bare metal to open stack layer and we had to go off and design all of that Well, we went to the do the next revision the state of that set of tools within the industry was completely different So then we had to go it wasn't like reuse work It was go back and start over Work and that was something we never really factored in we kind of always thought you get the first one done And that heavy lift is done and then after that it's just kind of incremental changes to the cookie cutter template It wasn't that way right and that is that is something I've really learned in this ecosystem of not just the open-stack Projects, but but even the ecosystem around that it's changing so rapidly that Sometimes the work and the the research and the effort and who the users you're trying to reach completely change even in six to nine to twelve months and I was just gonna add it's gonna be interesting like the question was a really good one It's gonna be interesting to see how deaf core or what's called interop now or interoperability impacts the answer in six months from now Because I think you know where we've been pushing You know a view where the marketing messages might have been misaligned a little bit deaf core I think it's pushing the same model of we want interoperable open-stack clouds We want the functionality to be stable and certain components are required to make you an open-stack cloud So it's kind of leveling some of that playing field a little bit And I think you know deaf core is not for facing deaf core is actually lagging a little bit Look, I think without a doubt that's probably in in part to Maybe the foundation taking some criticism that It there was too much going on and we want to be inclusive But we need to be able to set direction in order to gain adoption Is that the foundation's job? Is that what they should be doing? I think they should I think that's what they should be doing I mean we need we need Open-stack needs to have its own opinion And I think that We were talking to Jim and I were talking about this yesterday and I was asking about you know What sort of models were used in the past like what how did how did Linux approach this problem? You know and Jim said you know they had Linus, you know that they had a building a benevolent a benevolent dictator So we need the direction that's going to help us push this thing forward And I think that with the help of more input from from from the community users at the end-to-end users Operators and devs actually coming together, which is a lot of the work that that that Shamil is doing then we can kind of start getting those guiding points I'm going to take y'all's questions here in a minute So think of your questions and we can come up and grab them before we do that. We focused a lot on the problems What are the solutions one of the things that you mentioned Shamil yesterday? I think all of us kind of discussed was this concept of a product owner Can you explain what that what that means? Yeah, absolutely, and you know, there's going to be different dimensions to because we have products We have operators we have the community itself And I think product owners and product management could be applied to all three areas But in a nutshell what we're talking about is you know, there's product management Which is kind of delivering a product and kind of building all of the Requirements as well as the resource management along that whole path But then there's also a notion of a product owner and the product owner is really a person who is Deciding you know what the value is from what I'm trying to do and what basically is a driving force behind adoption of something in my Organization or in my company and then effectively The process of how it's made is the decoupled and eventually the product owner is the one who at the end goes did I get the results? I expected and doesn't meet my requirements so I think that product owner notion is is an important one because By having that focus and clarity of why am I doing something ahead of time? And then also having a scorecard or graces where you can go back why I did something Did I actually meet why I did it to begin with is is what's going to make you know open stack adoptions and deployments more and more Successful so I think you know that that I think is why the product owner notion is really important And others might have different opinions of what a product owner is well because I mean so it's a pretty broad term Should it be the product manager's role to also be sort of the touch point with the community itself? Should they be should be the how do you manage a product and? Have to interact with the open stack community to drive requirements there should that be two separate teams or two separate people or Two different parts of an organization. I think I Think that it needs to be at least in the same group of people And I think that I think the people talking to the customers should represent the customers in the community Right and maybe all the customers aren't part of the community I mean number of our any users they would never be at this conference, but they utilize open stack to run their businesses And so understanding what they're doing and bringing that information to the community will help drive the future of open stack So I think it needs to be this I see both sides of it But I think that it's important to have that representation. How are you getting your feedback from customers? I? Talked I have to talk to customers What about you Aaron because you know you have an interesting product situation. Yeah, so for us it is very much Out there talking to customers all the time, but but what's interesting here a lot of times is It's a conversation starter for us More so than it is an end result at times of a lot of times And this is both an advantage and disadvantage at times But I think an advantage to open stack is though we'll kind of come in and go This is what we have and this is really designed We have very specifically designed this to address You know a use case that we feel covers the majority of of the use cases that are out there right now We're trying to get as much traction as possible, but at the same time and what if it doesn't cover it, you know How do you take? Something like this that in in our way is very flexible a reference architecture And you kind of pull out one or two pieces, right? How do you take it and kind of go? Oh, you don't want that okay? We can pull that out But as long as it's not like when you're when you're playing what's the game Jenga, right? You don't pull out the piece where it all comes crashing down, right? But you want some flexibility in it so it's this weird balance of offering a product Which is sometimes seen almost as a you know opaque or black box of you just buy it or you don't To more of a Jenga model of still meeting your needs, but being able to kind of pick and choose a little modularity Maybe absolutely and and the opens the open stack situation We we actually see that more so than any of the other reference architectures that that we treat as a product in-house Because there is so much modularity and flexibility with an open stack compared to any of the other things that we do Absolutely, so go ahead It took me a minute to think through why the why I always had this blank stare on my face segment a little bit because I don't remember exactly Question, but it was about users and community should they be separate or something along those lines and and In the thought I had is that the users are the community. We're all the community The question was about product management So product management be separate from a function of okay the teams that are actually Contributing back to open stack. Okay. Okay. Got it Questions yeah, let's take a question. Go ahead and I'll repeat it for you So the the question is or the first there was a comment about The model of Linux and how we're actually moving faster than Linux moved. So What was the second part is is the end is it closer to an Android model than it is to the Linux model? Is is Android open source? I mean, I mean yes, it is wasn't it driven by Google? Well, and I'll add to that in at least in in my mind. It's it's a Certainly valid analogy be in the idea of All of the different handset manufacturers out there consume whatever kind of Google pushes out as the point release, right? Whatever version is out there and then all of the manufacturers add a little bit of whatever to it, right? Every version or I shouldn't say you know a lot of the versions that are out there in the Android ecosystem They're all different in some way shape or form and that's their idea of adding that level of personalization to To potentially address their market and stand out and differentiate themselves from all the others and yeah To to Andre's point earlier it might take forever for I don't know Samsung to release the the latest version of whatever And because they have to do the in-house testing they have to figure out what they're gonna add What they I wouldn't say remove necessarily, but certainly how do they customize it and produce a stable product? Because at the end of the day if you're gonna kick something out that you're just trying to follow Core as quickly as possible. That's not stable. It doesn't matter. I would like to talk more about that afterwards for sure question sir Yeah, so so effectively. I mean that would be very similar to like an open core type of an open source project So in that scenario, aren't we just saying that the handset manufacturers are the ones who are producing the product? Not necessarily Google Google's just giving you features and then the handset manufacturer turns that into a product Sorry, and what's funny is like I swear. I'm not the Android expert in the room by any means but Yes, and no because if you look at it, you know the the Google phones right still run stock Android with no modifications whatsoever and and half of them that are out there you can probably root them and and throw on your You know your own effectively trunk or core on top of it and just completely get rid of their customization So you still have the the ability to take core if you will and put it on top of their infrastructure without a doubt You know, I I don't know about I don't know about the core Android very much at all Sort of sort of what you were saying Aaron But as a Samsung owner and someone who gets Google up there Android updates from Google from Samsung It is an interesting analogy because you get the apps on the platform that are updating all time Right, and you sometimes see complaints where Google has released a version of Android But the handset manufacturer has taken their what seems like their own sweet time to get it out And I think that is a good model to draw the delineation between an enabling technology Android and the product When the vendor says we're now taking this enabling technology for whatever reason and testing it and doing whatever And this is worthy to push it out as a product Wrapping this wrapping up open stack and turning it into a product They're the ones that that ultimately people are buying there are some people who are choosing to buy a reference architecture like that The Google Nexus are lying, but that's really They're going out there accepting. Hey, there are probably some quirks and some odd things here that I have to throw engineers at to fix So aren't we essentially saying it's that's what we're we've built today, right with open stack I Think her question is how did they build that and so we're talking about what what can we do to? Kind of bring some more put more walls around how we kind of deliver features and and get releases and input from the market And deliver those features to our to our customers and users So I think her point was you know, how can we use the data use their model? And is there something we can take from there, and this is where I'm moderate. Yes Thank you. Oh, it's it also breaks down in other areas though because in the case of Android Yeah, it is open source code, but it is tightly controlled by Google It doesn't have the open governance that this project has and so it's I don't think it's a rabbit hole We need to follow down the other thing it breaks down on that is that? You know when it's time to upgrade your handset, you know, it's a 18 24 month life cycle And it goes in hopefully the recycle whereas someone who's investing in a cloud infrastructure is making a massive Hardware commitment and they're gonna want to see that hardware commitment continue to be relevant when the next six month cycle comes So I think that's one of the great challenges that we have as a community is You know now that we've opened up the tent and we've got this big tent with us How do we try and find an effective way to bring this back down to a manageable size? because clients want consistency clients want Certifications and other things that come with the expectations of a production. Yeah, it's a great point I would add this quickly. I think you want to add a point as well Think of it again handset analogy versus building a cloud infrastructure analogy Yeah with the life cycle of it is actually key because if you're gonna keep a handset two years You're not necessarily worried about upgrades as much unless you're one who really wants to tinker But if you're building a cloud infrastructure that is going to you know actually Depreciate over a number of years you want something that is upgradeable You want something that you because chances are you're gonna change at some point in that and you're not gonna necessarily do every release You might you know skip a a one release to make sure it's stable to go on the next one because you have that that time horizon On the infrastructure it is you know that infrastructure needs to have a life cycle It needs to have a plan in place as opposed to it being kind of disposable and you use it for two years and you're out And that's not the hardware perspective I was actually gonna answer I think you know what one of the other aspects to your question was what can we learn from that community? The way they do things and so and I'm glad big tent was brought up because this may or may not be a little bit controversial But oh, what's the fun if it's not right? In the Android market you can have multiple applications doing the same thing and what governs what? Gets adoption what doesn't is is stability and features and stuff So basically I think maybe that's what we can learn is you let multiple iterations of a Function exist and the one that is meeting user requirements or market requirements are the ones that you let live basically How many of you have a wish list from open stack as product folks? What's on your wish lists? We'll start on this side. What's on your wish list? Stable standard drivers. What's on your wish list? Neutron networks stable neutron networks. What's on your wish list? guest vlan tagging great one Who who else has a wish list? Yes Convergence in heat and what do you mean by that? It's happening. Yeah, the blueprints. It's a set of blueprints. They've started it already How many of your companies are contributing back to open stack? Leave your hand up if you're contributing to more than three projects That's impressive That's really impressive Speaking of Contributions, where do you draw the line between what you keep as IP and what you contribute back? And I've been very vocal about Mirantis because Mirantis doesn't really hold anything back So I'm not gonna Even though I work for a competitor Mirantis does a great job has been very vocal about contributing tons of stuff back creating new products that kind of thing Where do you guys draw the line? Well, so I don't have it at the product level right but but what we do personally is you know we obviously offer a product and What we actually did is we've hired full-time developers in-house and that's just what they do right our entire mission life is to go work on those projects and There is nothing held back in our instance right everything that is developed goes into core Shumel I would agree with that because I mean we're in similar industries and similar markets as well, right? So a I think anything that extends to keep like in our case Cinder anything that expands capabilities and functional functionality and workloads that Cinder can actually apply to I think we are open with that I mean we do consistency group stuff I know you guys at the QoS stuff originally and so that's all for a game I think but we're in a we're in a unique spot here because For us Cinder is a control plane and our real IP isn't a product right and so we're I mean it's gonna be more interesting I think when we get to Andre because then it becomes a question of you know, if the product is the cloud The three letters at the end of my name are similar to the three letters the same as the same three letters after Shumel So from the perspective of the cloud we do not we don't have we're not intending to build and differentiate cloud software Into with any IP we we love open stack We believe in the community and we want to contribute to make it better for everyone We think that That it should eventually truly become the leading open source cloud operating system So we're committed to that that doesn't mean we don't build any IP It's just not in the cloud services. We are actually building some IP to help service providers manage infrastructure And deliver and manage clouds in the data center, but that's a product for data center and service providers So what are key takeaways here, you know, we talked about a lot of things obviously one key takeaway for me was that the product Group is definitely should be something that most folks in this room should probably be involved in Yep, I agree. So how many of you actually attended any product work group sessions. I'm just curious Okay, good about half So we had we had 70 new product managers in our working session here So obviously and continue to join please and contribute to that. I think thank you I'm gonna do a follow-up to that and that is if you think about the concept of the meritocracy and how that gets used in the technical side of the contributors in the ecosystem in my mind in my opinion the exact same concept holds in In the product management space within OpenStack So along with the appeal to have product managers in the ecosystem get involved in the product working group and doing the product management Discipline if you will the way to have influence in my opinion is get roll up your sleeves get in with the teams Show that you know your craft and show that you deliver value to the development teams and they'll act on that data I mean, we've all seen it happen in our own jobs in our own organization. So I got a main man I think I think the need for collaboration in in in that relationship in an open source model is even greater Than in a traditional. That's why a good project our product managers are hard to find Key takeaways, I think it's going to be really really hard, but also think that We have an opportunity to really can Really deliver real value to the open stack community And I think that as many of you who are willing to contribute and be a part of it The better will be in the long term. So please please join and a final thing I would just say is you know in product management in in my History here as I've seen two types. There's the pioneers and there's the settlers and I think we're at a unique point right now Where we're still looking for both You know this this isn't mature enough to where it entirely needs to be settled There's student still new areas to go blaze trails as well So more than anything I would just encourage everyone to just roll up your sleeves Figure out where you want to participate in and how you can help and just go do it