 In this episode, we'll be talking about what is a service anyway, we'll be talking about redesigning how policy is designed and finally why service designers should focus more on public services. So if you're interested in that, keep watching and here's the guest for this episode. Hi, I'm Sabine Jönginger and this is the Service Design Show. Hi all, my name is Marc Fontijn and welcome to the Service Design Show. If you want to create more impact and change the world for the better as a service designer, then you've come to the right place because here on the show you get the chance to learn from the success of some of the world's best service designers. We talk about topics ranging from design thinking, customer experience, organizational change and creative leadership. So if you're interested in that, be sure to know that we bring a brand new episode every two weeks on Thursday. If you haven't done it already, I would love to have you to subscribe to the channel. My guest in this episode is Sabine Jönginger. Sabine is the head of the Competence Center for Research in Design and Management at the University of Applied Science and Arts in Dushan, Switzerland. Sabine recently published a book called Transforming Public Services by Design. In the next 30 minutes, Sabine will be talking about what is a service anyway, how can we redesign the way policy is designed and finally, why should service designers focus more on redesigning public services. So that was all for the introduction and now let's jump straight into the interview with Sabine. Welcome to the show Sabine. Hi, thanks for having me. Awesome to have you on this show and let's just jump straight in and ask me, I'll ask the first question that I ask everyone and that is, do you remember your very first encounter with service design? That was actually interesting because I'm old enough so that service design per se didn't exist as a term concept of profession when I was actually really working on it and when I was actually really studying it. So when I worked with the United States Postal Service at Carnegie Mellon, that would probably be the first time that I consciously thought about services and the impact of design on services and the organization. And I think I remember somebody else working on the US Postal Service at Carnegie Mellon, right? Yeah, I think that probably is true, actually that was a big group, there were several doctoral students at the time involved including me but you also know Xin Xin Yang. And there were also many, many master students involved, we had a team and that was amazing by the way when you think about the organization implications. We had a turnover of 90% on the project that ran for five years and we did not miss one milestone and we never lost the vision and we continued to develop the products I mean in the service for that. So I think this is really an amazing project and goes a long way. As you know, we're going to co-create the show and you just told me that you were also part of a sort of big co-creation process, right? You just organized a conference, what was the name of the conference that you did? The conference name was called the International Symposium on Design in Organizations. The idea was to explore, to inquire, to discover what it means when we talk about design in organizations and how different people think differently and where and how design is currently actually taking on a big role in organizations. Where is it actually happening? Yes, you know, what are the implications for design research and design education but also when you see that someone like Enrique Martinez who is the Director of Design at the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, he's providing design education right now, as you were speaking actually, in Washington D.C., to a group of civil servants and he's an in-house design educator. You told me that it was quite scary and exciting to co-create a conference so we're just going to repeat the same process and let's see if I'll make it a bit more scary and exciting for you by randomizing the topics. Let me see, yeah, I'll start with this one and it's called Service Concepts. Do you have a question starter that goes along with this one and can you show it? Hmm, Concepts. Service Concepts. What if? What if what? What if we in service design are not clear about our service design concept or in particular about our concept of service? I'm already puzzled, help me out. Right, so if you state you're a service designer or if there is such a thing as service design, then the first question must be what is a service? What constitutes a service? And when we think about it, there are many different ways to think of service and we can actually document that in the history of the reflections of what has service design been busy with. Service design has emerged first as an add-on service on a touch to products. So taking a very product-centric view, adding value to an existing product through an add-on service. Maintenance, maintenance for cars. For example, yeah, we have another concept of design which builds on the idea that a service is a contract, kind of a provision, a contractual obligation, a duty. That's another way to go about it. We have services as an interaction or like, you know, when you have touch points where the service is to provide the user experience at the point of interaction, the touch point. It's a very instantational kind of a food truck. Yeah, a food truck, but I'm often thinking more about the kiosks, you know, information kiosks or machine machines. The point of the touch point when I literally touch and engage with something and there is a lot more attached to that service, but there's at least a tendency in some service designers to not understand the before and after, which is the other concept of service design where you talk about it as a relationship, as a relation, as an ongoing relation, which does not stop at the interaction of the touch point. And where it's not helpful to have one touch point and another touch point and another touch point, because you're looking at another issue which is building on trust, for example, or comfort. And those concepts you cannot, I mean, address in instances, but there's something bigger. And then, of course, you can also look at services as disservices. And you can think of services that actually we wouldn't, you know, that kind of are more like ideas of a service, which means, for example, when education is education a service, is taxation a service, is law enforcement a service. Now, for service designers, these are not the first items that come to their mind when they think of service. But when you design services or when you concern yourself with service design, it seems to me that it's helpful to understand that there are different notions. And it seems to me that it is helpful to have your own stands about that. So how far are we familiar with our design, with our service concept when we deal with service design? And not far, I would say, that's at least my feeling. What do you think? I'm afraid you're right. I'm afraid you're right. Then, of course, the question is, why? And I think that that much of that depends also with the kind of education and feedback service designers get at this stage. So I haven't spoke to any, and we have a lot of graduate students here at 30 on false, but I haven't had a discussion with any of them about what is a service? There are design students, but none of them are really concerned about what is a service, what am I actually designing? Exactly. And that should always be the first question, whatever we design. It's like, what in the world are we actually dealing with? And there's very different ways to go at it. And you know what? You can decide that you are good in developing ad-on services for existing products. And that makes you happy. Fine. But know what you're doing. So for my work, whatever I do, you know, when I work on design management, when I work on design in the organization, my core aim is always for helping people to understand that there's a landscape of different possibilities. And that doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than the other. But it means that for you to work effectively and to really take the biggest advantage and make the best use of any kind of design activity and design effort, you need to understand, what the heck am I doing this for? Usually the answer that I get, I was thinking about it in the meanwhile, is whatever I'm designing, it's not a product. And then everything else becomes a service. But I'm really curious, what do you think needs to happen to grow this vocabulary and to grow a better understanding of the notion of what services are or the service landscape? Well, to begin with, I think that every design student who is serious about the service really needs to be made to reflect on the service and explore the different kinds and natures of services and the different kinds of purposes and functions. And then to develop their own vocabulary and their own knowledge base from which to draw on. Because the problem for a service designer, of course, is that the person they work with in the organization also uses the word service. And we don't quite know what exactly they have in mind. Is it an add-on service and add-on service to a product? Is it an idea? Is it like really a service that is how do you ephemeral in some ways? Or is it something that's really talking about touch points in all for design? Really important topic. I think so. But let's move on to topic number two. This is really a good one. What did you want to say? I'll leave your favorite one for last. So let's take this as a second topic and it's called policy cycle. Okay. Yeah, tension is rising. What do you got? How can we, where is it? Camera, camera, camera. How can we? How can we make sense of design in the policy cycle? And how can we make sense of service design in the policy cycle? What is the policy cycle? That's a good question. And the policy cycle is like a model. It is a design process that is drawn for people who study public policy, public management. And we come familiarized through their studies and teaching how a policy comes to life. That's really what a policy cycle is all about. Is how does a policy come to life? Now, when you hear that as a designer, what does that remind you of? Bureaucracy. That's right. But the idea that how a policy comes to life. The design process, right? That's a product development process. Yeah. Yeah. Right? How does a policy come to life? If you have anything that tells you how something comes into being, you're coping with a design approach. Exactly. You're coping with a design process. In this case, the product is simply called a policy. Yeah. For example. Yeah. And once we understand that, we can start thinking like, hmm, how do they go about that? And then you can start talking about, is this a linear design approach? Which, by the way, most policy cycles still are. Is it a fragmented product development process? Yeah. Because they separate from policy making to policy implementation, which are basically two halves of the same design process, but they separate it and isolate one from the other, which means there's no continuity in the process. And then afterwards, people wonder why there is no integrated policy design or integrated process from the policy intent to the policy implementation. Well, because the policy cycle, as it stands, often teaches people to segment and to separate and doesn't allow for what we like, co-creation, co-design, co-development is not much in there. Plus, when you understand that the policy cycle depends on identifying a problem or need. And we know that the people who filter the information or the data, I don't even know if it's information at that point, but the filter the data to indicate there is a problem, to indicate there is a need. The interpretation of that data is left to people who often are very removed from the real life everyday experiences of the very people who actually have very, very different problems related to this problem. But the problem that they are finding is not the problem where the design process in the policy world would start with. So what that really means is that we're finding that people and services are still often left out and not part of the considerations in the design of policies. But first of all, why is this such an important topic for you? Why? Because I'm very interested in the role of design in change and transformation. And I'm very interested in human-centered design. And when I started this kind of work, I mean, I started it really approaching it from organizational change, working with old case studies or older case studies like the Australian Tux Office or the American IRS or Order Postal Service. And then I found that through the rise of service design, there was another element coming into the to the fore where many service designers were talking to me and they were telling me how they were changing the organizations, the public sector organizations. And then I went back to the policy cycle and tried to first of all make the connection between design and the public organization, but also design and the whole policy cycle to help people do things differently. That's actually really what drives every designer. It's the idea for wait, something's not right here or something doesn't work for people. How can we do things differently? And if we are employing currently our current knowledge about design, our current understanding of design, our current methods, thinking processes, and it's not leading us to the kinds of outcomes and to the kinds of products that we actually feel deliver the kind of results we want to, the kind of experiences, the kind of benefits for people, then it's time to reflect on the design approach. Isn't it nearly impossible to redesign the policy cycle? It seems... No. What have you found so far? Well, I mean, first of all, I actually have redesigned the policy cycle in some ways. What was your secret? Well, I have the book here. I'm going to see if I can quickly find the pages because when you see it, it becomes so plainly obviously what the story is. And I'm just going to do... I don't know if you can see that very much. This is the traditional policy cycle. And the gray shade, by the way, is the area where service design has a role at all. All the... People who are listening to the podcast, you need to check the video. Yeah. Because I'm sorry, it's a little bit blurry, but it demonstrates very clearly that the role for change and transformation is very minuscule for service designers in this context, or for design, per se. Design is basically held down. And it also means that here you can see there's no people and there's really no consideration for services to begin with, unless the very end where designers are called on to service designers. And here the danger is indeed that you can have a policy that's really not very good for people, but hey, I can create a great experience around that. You know? So there's also an ethical aspect for what that actually means for people and services. And the redesign looks like something... Other side. Other side, other side, something like this. Where you have people in the center, and actually this is the preversion, so their services are still missing. That's on the next page. But you have policy intent and you have a direct line to people. You have policy making. And again, you go back to people. And you have policy implementation and you go back to people. And this is something that's not linear. But that's iterative. And here... But does it really work? Does it really work with policy? Yeah. Fascinating. When you say does it really work, do I say I personally have the powers in mind to redesign the policy cycles of the world? No. But do I have the powers and the ability to have conversations with people who are in the middle of these policy design processes and who have a chance to reflect on their own design thinking and their own design methods? And do I have the chance and powers and abilities to contrast with them and to offer them different ways of... It's an alternative. Yeah. It's an alternative. Yes, I do. And that doesn't mean that from the beginning through the end, I, Sabine Junginger, run the policy cycle process. No. But it helps me work with people and help them, encourage them to develop new design skills, new design awareness, new design understandings that they can within their own organizations and within their own settings, change behavior, change in experiment with new approaches. What has... If you can pick one, because we have to move on, but if you have to pick one, what is your biggest lesson in studying this? What's your biggest insight? It's a very... In some ways, it's a frustrating exercise because, of course, as many people immediately respond to me, the moment I raise the term policy, yeah, that's about powers and interest. And how can you possibly do anything about powers and interest? Well, this is, of course, an easy way out for anyone who feels like we can't do anything. As a designer, it's not a sufficient explanation. As a designer, I sidestep powers and interest in trying to create new common ground for people to work with. Let me just talk quickly about the Brazilian project that I was involved in. And here, I was working with a ministry that was interested in fostering new innovation methods and new innovation practices and within their own ministry, but also across ministries that had to report to them. I was working with a group that had no resources. It was a top ministry, but they had no resources because Brazil is broke, and Brazil is in an absolute political crisis. I was working with level three and four of that ministry. So you have to understand that number one is always a politician. Number two is someone appointed by the politician. And so I said to them, I said, like, wow, does this make sense what we're doing here? Will anybody participate in our workshops? Should we move forward with this? And this was about a year ago. And then they looked at me and they said, you know what, we have to do this no matter what because, yes, number one can go. The politicians most likely will switch. Number two, high chance that that person will disappear or change with the other person. Number three, maybe, maybe not, but then we are here no matter what. We're here no matter what. And if the politicians change and if the leadership changes on top, chances are we have the same or more problems with fewer resources and we really need new ways, new methods to address them. So yes, we have to work on this. We have to change. We have to develop new ways of going out there. And I think that to me is one of the key motivators still to see people in the public sector who are taking this idea of the common good, of the public good quite seriously. They want to do as much as they can and the best they can. And for now, many of them have training in legal affairs and technical affairs, in management affairs and decision making and legal interpretation, but they don't know how to work with people. They don't know how to prototype. They don't know how to reach out. And it's not because they don't want to. It's because literally that's not on their skill set. And it's not like they can't do it. It's just that they haven't been exposed to basic user research concepts, basic co-development issues, methods. So we're just handing them new and maybe better tools. Yeah, yeah, which is really nice the way you phrase it because we're handing them that. And it doesn't mean like we're coming in and we're telling them this is the way to go or we're coming in and we're doing it for them. Whoever thinks of himself or herself as yes, I'm the service designer and I'm gonna do this for them. And I'm gonna, no, this is about them. This is about people in the public sector having a chance to develop new skills and complementary approaches that really aid their work and help them do a better job. It helps us do a better job when we're service designers and we work on something that's actually sensible and responsible. And you made a really nice bridge to the third topic you wanted to talk about. And basically that's the red line between all the topics I think and that's the public sector. So do you have a final question related to the public sector? Now go through your list here. Why should we bother about the public sector? Because especially for service designers, I believe, I can't prove it by numbers, but I'm pretty certain that most services are developed and delivered by people who are not service designers by training. And yet their products and services have consequences and implications for millions of people in everyday life. And for that reason, I think service designers really should engage with the public sector, but they should do so with care and responsibility. So they should really have an interest in organization affairs. You have to know something about policy if you talk to policymakers. You have to know something about organizations if you deal with public sector or with organizations in general. But you need to have a basic grasp of what that means, public sector organization. It's like your design material, right? Yes. And you also need to understand, there we go back to the idea, what is it and what are we dealing with? What's the difference between a public service and a private service? Do you know it? You're asking me questions. That's not how this show works. That's what I'm doing right now. What's the difference? I would say the money streams. How so? Funding is different. Yeah, funding is different. Yeah. But also the fact that you cannot choose who you will offer your service to. You cannot select by income, by age, by beauty, by interest, by brand. You have to make sure that this is something that everybody can do and gets to everyone. Everyone has access to it, for example. And that makes it really hard designing something for the mass audience, right? It makes it really hard. And it also means that you have to maybe understand how to then develop different kinds of user profiles or user research. There's the sun walking through the screen. And then there is also the other, I mean, there's a whole list of differences that I also explained in the book. But just to be aware that a public service is significantly different from a private service. So we'll do a tip later on. But if an aspiring service designer approaches you and talks about public and private services, and he wants to know the difference, what is the biggest difference in the design process? And there are a lot of differences, probably. Yeah, I think in the design process, there aren't that many differences. You know, you work with people, you look into situations, you understand, you generate insights into the key issues of a situation, what makes the situation problematic for whom. That's similar. But the way it works with the organization is that you have to definitely find a way to figure out how to bring in the users in the organization. See, that's something that people often forget and service designers among all people are really amazingly similar there, that they forget that the service design is not just for the person, the end user or the citizen. A service has to be maintained by people in the organization, has to be sustainable in that organization, has to match the resources, the structures, the processes, and so on of this organization. And if the service designers don't understand that and don't include that aspect and these issues into the design, that is if they don't work with people in the organization, if they don't help these people to possibly even reshape processes in the organization, create openings for restructuring something in the organization, then they will fail because it's a nice service that gets in the drawer because nobody can deliver it. I recently published a trend report, the service design zero trend report, and I said something like the ability to emphasize with our colleagues and with our clients will determine how successful service designers will be in the future. Next to how well we're able to emphasize with the end customers because we're doing that quite well already but I think we're overseeing the people who we're working for and with. Well, it's just that the service, like I say, is by its nature drawing on all organizational elements, structure, purpose, vision, resources, and the people in the organization and to not include that into the consideration and development of a new service is a design flaw from the beginning. It's a blind spot, yeah. Blind spot and it's a missed opportunity. Exactly. But then the question is, you asked about a young service designer, that's a big thing to do and you need to have a little bit of foundations in organizational theory and management and organizational change. You need a change management. You need to have a basic idea about what we'll expect you so that you don't get frustrated if you get immediate pushback, for example. It's normal, it's normal. The question is, how can you overcome that? How can you invite my three key terms that I've been carrying around with me for ages now are invite, engage, enable? And the question is always, how can you invite people? How can you engage them in a second step? And in a third step, how can you enable them so that when you're going, when you're leaving, they are left with something? And that seems to me something service designers as well may take to heart. Exactly. I fully agree. Sabine, this is your opportunity. You asked me also a few questions, but this is your opportunity to ask a question to the people who are listening or watching this. Episode, what would you like to know? What would you like to ask them? Well, I would like to know, why are you watching this? Why are you trying to get out of this? Do we want? Yeah, what are you trying to get out of this? I'm also interested in that too. So leave a comment down below. Sabine, our time flew by. So the only thing for me left to say is, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and ideas. And yeah, hope to see you in Utrecht maybe someday. So are you involved in redesigning public services? Let us know down below in the comments. And remember, more people like you are watching these episodes and your comment might just be the creative spark someone else needed. If you'd like to learn more, check out some of the past episodes or head over to learn.servicedesignshow.com where you'll find courses by leading service design experts that dig deeper into the topics we talk about on the show. That was it for this episode. I'll see you in two weeks time with a brand new episode. Thanks for watching and see you then.