 The Social Economic Rights and Accountability Project has urged President Mohamed Bahari to urgently redirect the proposed spending of 4.8 billion Naira of public money to monitor WhatsApp messages, phone calls and text messages of Nigerians and other people to pay some of the salaries of striking resident doctors. Well, joining us to discuss this is Serap Deputy Director Kala Wali Uluwadari. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Uluwadari. Serap Deputy Director Kala Wali Uluwadari Great, this is really the resident doctors' strike and the issues that are bedeviling the health sector seems to be a very big, in fact, a major front burner issue, whether it's the striking doctors or the fact that these doctors have to deal with COVID-19 and the fact that they're being paid a meager amount of money as hazard allowance. Now, many have spoken about, in fact, put them side by side with members of the National Assembly who have been receiving newspaper allowances and hardship allowances, and these are doctors who care for Nigerians who work in the harshest of conditions to take care of our sick people. And all they're asking for is a payment or an agreement that government had made for them to redeem that agreement. But now we hear that the government is taking them to court. Why did Serap decide to, you know, make this warning or rather issue this warning to the presidency? Thank you very much. You should understand that what you call a war is contained in an open letter that the Serap had written to the president or another guy, asking him to repeal his constitutional duties and perform his role as president of Nigeria. As you rightly mentioned, the issue is much more important, particularly in view of the target of COVID-19 and what we've devastation seen it due to other countries and what might be coming in Nigeria. And this is against the background of the argument that the striking doctors have claimed that government has signed and government has refused to repeal. And it would seem that this is not fulfilling the agreement on the part of the government, but obviously about the quantity of funds that we saw in just last month at the president signing this agreement. And the question is, is it that the government of our firms should take care of striking doctors, particularly in view of the target of COVID-19? And then this government that budgeted about four billion there to what is called, what is the better term that is dropping the spending that permitted the national security against the spending of about four billion there to intercept or listen in as you may call it, to WhatsApp messages and all that private communications of Nigeria. It is just a case of misplaced priority, particularly given the fact that these actions, in this one that you've provided budgeted in CDT, it is going to be a breach of the fundamental rights of Nigerians to privacy, which of course is guaranteed by the sessions of the World Constitution. So the question that you have to ask, is this the person who can spend those funds in view of striking doctors, in view of the state of our family healthcare and our health services generally? I think the answer is in all of them. I mean, you literally jumped the gun, but I will come back to that. I'll put a plug, a pin on that one, because I want to talk about the legality of, you know, ifs dropping on Nigerians, but let's stay on the resident doctors. We all know that we're fighting a pandemic, a very deadly one, by the way. And the doctors cannot say because there is a pandemic, so they would not work. Of course, they have to work, and they have to deal with this. So this is the case that they're making. But the latest about this resident doctors who are striking, who have refused to bulge, by the way, is that the government is taking them to court. Can you explain to us why the federal government would be taking its own resident doctors? The doctors who are working, again, I would like to re-emphasize, under the worst conditions, I have been to three different university teaching hospitals where touch lights were being used to sometimes conduct surgeries because there is no diesel in the generator or there's no light in the hospital. I have seen cases where I had a sick parent and I had to take that parent to the hospital. I had to buy everything down to the caesars and the lint and the gloves that the nurse was going to wear. So why would the government be taking these doctors to court if they're asking for something that is deserving of them? Thank you. I'll move. They said the factual situation of placing a here or two cubes in the health sector in Nigeria presently. So the morality of the government that is going to court can be said to be right, if you look at it. Of course, the law prohibits the government also as an organ of state law court, the national and the structure of the health jurisdiction, so it's a type of that of this matter. So it's not about the legality of the rightness of it, particularly at this time. And like I've mentioned, why is the government going to court? I'm not saying the court will decide that the government, but I would like to know what is their grouse for the striking doctors. And they say that they must try to find, sign an agreement with the striking doctors. And they say there are no funds to pay the agreement. They signed some couple of months ago. And I will not suggest that I'm able to see that, but really, I would stop you to see any justification that government say, I do, to show where they have to remit on an agreement to pay the striking doctor. And these are doctors who have put their lives on the line to the part of COVID-19 and to rescue Nigerians by doing it. And the doctors are claiming that they are being put off. Is this no salary in some states? And that is yet to be paid. So it will be interesting to see the case that the federal government is making as a national and the structure of it. But really, given the situation that they are experiencing, I don't think that it is a right for the federal government to do it. At best, they should report the obligation to sign the striking doctors. So you are saying that this is a case of morality or rather rightness and legality. So the government is well within their rights to take these doctors to court. But the basis of this conversation, as we all know, is the fact that there was an agreement that was signed, but was reneged upon. So if government has now taken these doctors to court, I'm not saying that you should pre-empt anything that is in court. But how much grounds in terms of legality do they have on these resident doctors? And it's not just one hospital. We have resident doctors across the country. And I also want to bring in the no-work, no-pay, you know, line that the government or the federal government is making the no-work, no-pay, you know, line that the government always pushes when people go on strike. Under any government, whether it's a democratic government, especially a democratic government, don't people have a right to go on strike if they are striking for the right, you know, the right reasons? And again, could we also say that these doctors are being a bit selfish knowing that the hospitals can't really do without resident doctors? Thank you very much. The law preserves the rights of doctors to strike as the legitimate and legal means of pressing on their demands. And that is why it is very interesting to see the court papers filed by the federal government and even the legal arguments or the factors or circumstances that they placed before the National Industrial Court or the Post-Defense side over this matter. I would struggle to see the morality or the rightness of whatever claims the government would have, particularly against the backdrop of the argument they have signed, is that true? I don't have access to the court papers, I'm not saying the argument you call and what is the case of the government. But like I mentioned, I would struggle to see the rightness of such actions by the government. The no-work, no-pay, really, to me, it sounds like the bully in the striking doctors who have gone on strike, let it make it. The trade disputes are, under the constitution, guarantees the right of the wish of workers to go on strike as they were, pressing on their demands. They have not done anything in law. And I'm very much hopeful that the National Industrial Court will decide over this matter. And in determining the issues, we will bring that substantial justice and decide the case in favor of the striking doctors. And all of the federal government, whatever their case will be for the court, to fulfill the argument that they signed with the striking doctors and even go for it to make sure that the welfare of the doctors and not to do this in striking doctors, the resident doctors in this instance, for all the health workers in general. I'm interested. I would really like to have a conversation with the Minister of Health, Mr. Hanere, because I mean, this is his constituency. And he also sits on that presidential committee on COVID. We're dealing with a Delta variant in this case. And I'm wondering why is it so difficult for government to come to the table and have an agreement stick to it so that our doctors can go back to the hospitals and deal with this Delta variant and keep people safe. Again, the Minister of Labour, Dr. Kristin Gige, had spoken some time ago saying that doctors should not go to, should not be running abroad for greener pastures because he made a very funny statement about hazard allowance. But we see much, I mean, many doctors fleeing the country because of the harsh situations and the conditions that they have to work under. At this rate, are we going to have more people want to go into this medical field or study and become resident doctors or any kind of medical experts in Nigeria if this is how the government is treating those who are already in the system? Of course, the answer is obvious. Nobody wants to go to this kind of a business or college of profession. What a treatment that Nigerian government is making out of doctors. But we should not understand that this is not only the problem, but it affects perhaps every state or every college there or in Nigeria. And that shows the insensitivity of government to the plight of Nigerians, the lack of commitment to socioeconomic rights of Nigerians. We are facing the Delta variant. I haven't seen government do what we've seen, what they said, more shows that it's more beliefs to fight COVID-19 and all the proto-legends that we have in the air sector. What we would expect government to do right now is to ensure that everyone in the air sector, the workers in the air sector are well taken care of. And we are not talking only talking of the appeal and the correctness in which we are talking of capital expenditure, having the base, having the base. We are talking about PPEs, having the correctness in the right infrastructure to even attend to Nigerians. It's really sad that Nigerian government is playing this game at this very important, at this decimal moment in fighting the pandemic. And I hope this will solve variation in the interests of Nigerians. Not only in the interests of doctors, but also Nigerians who will lead this medical intervention, if not for COVID-19, for other aliens that are still with us in Nigeria. Before I let you go, I did put a pin on something. Let's go back to the WhatsApp situation. 4.8 billion, that's a lot of money to be ifs dropping. And the word ifs dropping or listening in doesn't necessarily sound legal to me. And you're a lawyer. Explain to us how this would be legal. Let's not forget that we still have the Twitter ban hanging over our heads. Even though the government, you know, the AGF had gone on the record to say that Nigerians have not been stopped from using Twitter. I still do not understand what he meant by that. But here we are talking about monitoring WhatsApp messages, which also has attached to it people's personal phone numbers and text messages. Explain to me how this is going to work. But the record, the answer to the general is simply stating the law following the judgment of court. There's another bill to be washed up, obtained by Seraph and over 100 Nigerians. So according to the Nigerian government, from taking MSNP that are arresting, harassing or substituting anyone that uses Twitter. And again, what we've seen was there is executive view and the accent to the view by the President shows this administration's commitment to fighting the freedom of expression. That is the only way to look at it and that does the part. And to answer your question directly, there is no way either this act of oppression or the funds, the expenditure can be lagged. It's clearly unlocked. Section 44 of the Constitution clearly guarantees the right of all Nigerians to privacy. And that privacy includes the privacy to not only own a phone but to the contents of this film to have secure conversations with anyone in your life that you are not breaking the law. And so what the government is doing is clearly against the law. They are marking over 4 billion there. See, you can imagine what that could be in the health center. And I'm sure if that is diverted, committed to paying the striking of what you would have said, it's not all of the animal that it would provide infrastructure for the hospitals. And this is the same government that's break the provisions of the law, to think that the National Health Act 2014 provides that there should be minimum, one percent, minimum, one percent of the consular revenue form that should be committed to the health center. And 10 percent of that fund is meant to be used to pay salaries, human resources, in the health center. And we have this government, a supplementary budget for that amount, which is an extra to what we have presented in 2020. That's over 1 billion, 3 billion there. Taking 4 billion to breach the right of privacy of Nigeria, it is short so far. And this again is a consistent move by what we've seen in this administration, in print of the right of expression in Nigeria. And it is important to know, in this instance, if the NST has this power, and they spend this money and they pay the will, it will not only breach the right of freedom of expression, but also, it will not only break the right of freedom of practice. To privacy, man, it will breach the right of freedom of expression, because it means all your conversations, all the animal that's on the WhatsApp, despite opening the government, and it's a government that will seem more open than not. It breaches the order of course. And so, this is clearly... Well, I think we're losing you because the connection is going bad, but Kola Waluwadare is the Deputy Director of CERAP. Thank you so much for speaking with us. I'm hoping that we can have you back here to talk more on this issue of the WhatsApp monitoring from a legal angle. But thank you for speaking with us. Well, we have to go. We want to thank you all for being part of the conversation tonight on Plus Politics. Tomorrow, we're coming back with more conversations around the polity in Nigeria. I am Mary Annicole. Have a good evening.