 Oh, she's back. Please make sure you stop the recording before exiting the meeting in order to save it. Someone fixed that bug by adding that message, which is fair. I will probably do the same. So that's a recommendation, yes. Just warning. So yes, well, hello all. So this is the finish of the link call for February the first, 2023. Yes, and we have a lot of new and familiar faces. So we can start with checking, maybe, and interactions. People are interested. We have to go alphabetically. That would mean our room. Yeah. OK, we're doing intros. Yeah. OK. Yeah, hi. I'm Aaron Zuckershorf. I am the lead privacy engineer for the Washington Post. And I do a lot of stuff with static generated websites. That's sort of the fun hobby that brought me here, I guess. I also worked a lot in academia on archiving stuff, so that's the other part. OK, I'm going to just go down the alphabetical list. Bentley, you're up. Hey, everyone. Bentley Davis, software engineer for some 30 years. Software developer, not an engineer. And in this space, I've just been following and helping out Jerry with his brain, which is a linked data structure. And I'm working on debate software and decision making software that includes a hierarchy of arguments. So that's my interest in this space. Right now, in the Open Global Mind Group, we're doing a sense doing meeting where we're going to try and sit down and make sense of a complicated situation using different tools of practice, different practices and different tools for sense making. So it's one more too right now. OK, it's time for the new guy, Carl. Carl. You skipped Bill. He's back in Dutch. Tell us, just yourself. OK, hi, everybody. My name is Carl, with Tenna. Yeah, I'm a student. I go to RISD, Fort Island School of Design, studying sculpture there. And I also go to Brown. And I'm doing an independent concentration. So I'm building a major in something called futureology. So that's kind of just like what I'm pulling together. And I'm really interested in sort of webs of creative software and adaptive interfaces, like the UI, these sorts of things. And generally the effect of the personalization algorithm on the psyche of sort of my generation. OK, interesting. Welcome aboard. So Bill, I'm sorry I skipped you. I don't know why, but I was focused on youth over experience. So. Just keep digging, man. Don't give a shit. I feel like it's that second foot in my mouth here. It's a very simple job to just ask people to speak in order of alphabetic. But no, I managed to make a mention. OK, I'm a retired. Well, I'm retired. And I've done a lot of work. I studied chemistry for 10 years. I worked as a computer programmer and software engineer for Xerox, built one of the first digital libraries with Cornell University in 1981, right before the World Wide Web. I did a lot of work in user-centered design and development there with people at Xerox Park. And then I had an opportunity to work internationally with a scientific NGO called Codeata, part of the International Council of Science, working on preservation of scientific data in developing countries. And I came across, I've known Jerry for a long time. And Pete just introduced me to the massive wiki idea, which I think has a lot of legs and since I'm still standing, I'm in on it. So that's, and also I'm pretty interested in the general younger conversation about how we're going to put all this information, we have it if we can do this together. I have opinions, but yeah, I'm really interested to have those changed by those of you that are younger and, you know, the one thing I want to say, it sounds weird, I'm just trying, at my age now, I'm trying to unlearn things I took for granted about how everything needs to be. So that's why I'm really interested in what's happening now in a new way. Chris. So you've read it in the English, but I pronounce it, I have a vague memory of the rest of the group. I am a recovering biomedical and electrical engineer who plays around in the sense-making and thinking space. I guess today I have my independent, I'm not sure what I'm talking about, but I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I have my independent researcher hat on for most of the day, and later today I'll be wearing my IndieWeb hat for a bit, but I don't know, this is not a lot I'm not interested in, so let's see what happens. Plansion? Oh, we're in a hurry, yes. Hi all, I'm Eduardo, my nickname is Plansion, and some people call me Plansion as well. So I'm a site reliability engineer. It's my profession. This has been some permanent background on reliability engineer at Google, at least for one more month. Let's see what happens, because I'm, yeah, you know, layoffs. And yes, and I got into the knowledge community very interested, like well, I guess in the early nought, but mostly just writing, and only in the last three years or so trying to like contribute somehow with like code or design, I don't know. And yeah, very interested in like, in general like integration of information from, you know, in particular across wall gardens, or like, you know, integrating wall gardens into like a cohesive pro-social whole, I would say. So yeah, distributed and decentralized approaches. And I'm working on this project, just as I first thought comes to my guess, called the Aguara, which is, I guess, my particular take in my limitations on how to do maybe a system that like follows like the 80 rules to some extent. So try to do as much as we can with simple tools of the, you know, thinking about what is really, really well off the shelf. And that's, yes, I may write a fiction as well. I'm trying to do that. Yes, I guess that's it. Cool, yeah, brief is good. So I'm Matthew. I'm the only one I think in Europe here. No, in a French and you're in Switzerland, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm from Argentina, but in Switzerland. Yeah, so I'm based in Brussels. I'm doing a lot of consulting work to the European institutions and things like online communities, knowledge management, collaboration and stuff like that. I've been building, you know, I've built the first database driven website here in Brussels in 1995, but I'm not a developer. I just work with developers. I'm here because I'm really interested in decentralized collective intelligence. Got something to show you with Peter and Bill a little bit in a few minutes, hopefully. Yeah, nice to meet you. Peter. Hi, I'm Peter Kaminski. I'm I help people work together with it tools and human process. I'm an entrepreneur and independent consultant. And my one of my big projects for the past couple of years has been math wiki, which has a lot of similarities to Flintstones, Agora. Massive wiki is the idea that we should use simple, simple tools and a minimum of process to make this decentralized wikis. So Bill and I, Bill and I have been doing that a lot. Bill and Matthew and I have been working on a massive wiki for the thinking tools for thought map project, which I think we're going to talk about a little bit more later today. Thanks. Okay, so I'm glad to see you here, Carl. By the way, we've been meeting off and on in this forum and various others for a while, but this is the first time I've actually seen most of these people for quite a while. So welcome aboard. But I don't normally chair these meetings. It's usually Jerry or somebody else. So I'll pass it back to Flancy. And you've only got 10 or 15 minutes. So what would you like to talk about last year here? Yeah, I mean, oh, thank you for that. I see we have like, I think an actual presentation about the tool for thinking map project for later. Yes, I will be, I mean, if I miss that, I will be very sorry, but I will definitely catch a recording. So, yes, so thank you for that. Anything, let's see. We have pending before we dive in. I guess we have discussed during January a few times this thread off our plans for the year. This is something that I mean, I don't think we should cover that very, very deeply here, but just like I guess I wanted to, to reserve as that because this group has been going on for a while. And I think I enjoy this meeting tremendously, but we had said that we wanted to like maybe spot opportunities for the collaboration. You know, concrete threads we want to pick up. And for that, we started writing down our, our plans, sort of like a forward-looking calendar. And yes, so that way we, perhaps we can align through the year, have some checkpoints and actually there are some common projects. So just mentioning not to like go much more into this because I also, I don't know, I think Jerry was interested in doing this and perhaps we can wait until next time. But in case, you know, like we want to pick that thread back up next time. Yes, it will be nice, you know, if you want to think about that and you know what, if you would like to bring some goals for next time, one or two things maybe you will like to do with other people from the group. I know, for example, I have it as an example, like meeting with Peter about like how to make, you know, reuse code or otherwise make massive wiki and now a more compatible even, although they are very compatible in approach, you know. Or maybe like render the same data set as a massive wiki and as an hour and see, you know, strengths and, you know, compatibilities together. So I guess all these to say, maybe let's think about a few things we would like to do together this year and discuss, add them to the agenda here or to some note in your editor garden and let's discuss next time. And this was all for the new people in the group and you don't need to bring any particular project, but you know if you want to discuss some of your goals for the year are, that would be awesome. Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot actually and I think I would like to generalize the link card generator slash archiving tool I've been working on so it's more applicable to other projects. I was thinking that this group and the projects that people are working on here seem like they might be able to find some use out of this. Basically, so for those not familiar, the idea here is you put a link in a markdown file that matches a particular pattern. You usually just, it stands alone on a line by itself. And then during the build process of your system, or I mean it could work in other ways too, but right now it's designed to work in the build process of the system. It goes out, it retrieves a copy of that file. It archives a simple text version like you get through Instapaper or something like that or readability, whatever. It archives that version on your local site, provides a link with a relative URL to your local site, attempts to archive it on archive.org and then generates the type of social card that right now you're sort of dependent on calling out the third party APIs to generate. I know that the indie web community has had a very good record with setting up like reliable infrastructure that can be used, but in this situation I sort of, I'm very hesitant to have a system that relies on a third party to manage these sort of things. I'm talking about like bridgey fed, which is a really cool project for comments, but I like to make sure that these things are sort of self-owned just in case. So in terms of if people are interested in incorporating that type of tool, because I know both of the projects that were mentioned here, MassiveWookie and Agora both are markdown based, maybe that might be something I could work with folks through this call to integrate this year. I think that would be super useful for my work to help things are made better by making them more broadly usable. And also it dovetails with the sort of focus I want to put in this year. I'm certainly interested, and I don't know if it's, it may or may not be obvious, but part of MassiveWookie, we've got a pretty nice static site generator. And we'd love to add things to the build process. Yes, and definitely also for the Agora. In particular, for example, I can think, right now we have ingestion from like social media, so Twitter and Maston, but we actually literally only save the link because it seems like it goes back well with the, you know, the topic here of this fellowship. So we literally dump like a link in a markdown file and this will be an amazing compliment, yes. I'll put together some reports on it, I think, on what it does thus far and we can maybe work together on shaping it so it works better with other projects. Because right now it's just working with 11T in my static site generation process. Be really cool if you could, and this is something that's come up over and over, be cool if you could have a link that was at least bimodal that could either go to the real site or to the archive, a local archive. Yeah, that's exactly how the cards are set up. I'll put an example page into here. So you can see that each of these link cards, there's one in there that doesn't work, but each of these link cards have an archived and a read link. And if you click on the archive, it'll take you to the local archive if that's available or if I was successfully able to archive it on the web archive, it'll take you to webarchive.org and the version of the page there. This, Michael Grossman's, sorry, Factor. Factor, I would be interested, I think, too. Oh, I don't know that project. A factor without an O, it's meant to be kind of a personal link card and river system, shared system. And it's the opposite of Facebook or something where the idea is to do as much social networking and virality between the members. It's the other way around. It's meant to be kind of a private river that you can share with other people, private or public river. But anyway, he's a good guy. He hangs out in OGM and Flotilla and CTI. And I'll tell him, I'll tell him. Oh, is he based out of City University here in New York? He's in New York, I don't know about City University. Interesting. Okay, well, that's good. On the topic of things to, you know, maybe also, I guess I was, I wanted to bring up interweakie links or like, well, something like interweakie links, you know, that we could like maybe think about how to, in the specific case here, how to link through between our different knowledge databases. And of course, we could do this through Massive Weekly through our own or through like just like a unified, like addressing our new space method. Thanks for mentioning that. And it reminds me of a conversation that we had in the Free Jerry's Brain call yesterday. So Free Jerry's Brain is kind of a sibling organization of this. I think anybody here would also be interested in Free Jerry's Brain. But Marc-Antoine Perron is one of the people that hangs out there. And he and Jerry and I got into a discussion of why don't we have an interchange format in the middle of stuff, right? And something like Massive Wiki or Agora is part of that, where you have an agreed simple syntax like markdown and then you agree on some way of sharing the files. Marc-Antoine has a system he calls hyperknowledge. And somewhere in between where Massive Wiki and hyperknowledge, there's a couple things that he thinks needs to be set up so that you have interoperability between tools. So one of those was the concept broker, what he called the concept broker. If I name a page this and somebody else names a card that, you kind of need something in the middle that says, hey, you guys are talking about the same thing. That's actually the same concept, right? And then another thing he talked about was he called it nesting. So if you had those two mapped concepts, then you need to be able to talk about the link from my page, the concept mapper. You have to say, I'm missing up this. Anyway, nesting means that you have to be able to not only talk about something but talk about how you're talking about something and then you have to talk about how you talked about talking about something. It's a recursive or nested thing. So if I use a simple word like adapting, do I mean it in a biological sense? Do I mean it in an information management sense? Do I mean it in whatever? And then, so I thought that was really interesting. We talked about it for a while. Why don't we just have a simple thing? And it turns out it's not the interoperability between tools. It's not just saying, oh, I'll talk markdown. You have to figure out how to map more stuff. And then we talked about how markdown is particularly bad at nesting. So you could use links for that, but the links would just get junkier and junkier every time you try to nest into a link. Yes, which I see completely. Inter-wiki conventions will be sort of like what lets you piggyback on top of just like the, well, I guess not even markdown, but rather the markdown plus wiki links. Yeah, the thing that Mark Antoine likes a lot is out of band, I forget what it's called, the ability to have text and then out of band. Stundle annotations? Yeah, out of band annotations. There's somebody from Condé Nast who's got, and then there's another system just like that that's, I think they ended up kind of coming back together. Thanks, Chris, for mentioning sister sites and sister pages. Is sister sites the same as sister pages? Sister sites have sister pages, I think, is the idea, right? Yeah, I think they're all roughly the same or related. There's actually, because it's hard, you don't want to have to have each thing do the work. And I don't think there exists one for Chrome or I've not found one, but there is a Firefox add-in called shift selection search that allows you to highlight things on a page. And it immediately pulls up a little search box, but it gives you a choice of where you want to search for that thing at. So if each system has an addressable query view, you can set it up. So I have choices of search on my own website, search in the Agora, search on Wikipedia, search on, you know, 10 different things. So I may take an idea and then the browser gives me the infrastructure to search for those things in a variety of different places. Yes. You know, now having an additional indicator that those places may actually have that thing or is kind of another level of kind of pre-search that you could add on to. But I find it works fairly well and it becomes a lot easier to have some third-party service kind of manage that UI rather than something like the massive wiki have to be aware of all the other places that are searchable. But it also then gives me a predefined list of places I trust to go find those bits of information. So it kind of manages that piece as well, which has been useful for me at least. I don't know what other solutions in that space look like. That's interesting. There's some really interesting work being done on static site search that could be applicable here, especially if pages came up with a common format that we know where the important data is. The end result is like there are some really interesting projects around breaking down one or more JSON files that index a bunch of data. Let me see if I can pull up some links. But I played around with two options for my Twitter archive, which has both of them running, but they're both pretty smooth even at scale. May I ask, are you talking about static search on a site or search across multiple static sites? Search across a static site, but because it's a search design for a static site, it's very easy to extend that to whatever the heck you want. Because all you're doing is you're creating a file of build time. That build process initially only includes the content of your site, but it could include the content of multiple sites really easily. That opens up a bunch of really cool possibilities. I forget which engine, but we've got static search built in. I'd love to know which one you're using because I'm really interested in finding good versions of these that make it very effective. They all seem to have different trade-offs. I like the one we're using, and then we've got another candidate in the wings. Yeah, Lunar, thanks, Bill. We're using Lunar right now, which is quite nice, but then there's another one that we've looked at as well. Is that LUNR, Elastic Lunar? Is that the one? It's just Lunar. We tried Elastic. I spent a lot of time in this. I couldn't actually... I ended up using just the plain Lunar to be able to really index everything well. It's just there was some weird, something weird about Elastic that got in the way. I don't know. They made some... I don't know what it worked. I can dig out my notes, but I remember we just... I went back to Lunar to make the work. All right. I'm familiar with both of those, so that's good. I mean, it's just a tiny little piece of Python code once we got it together. But getting it to say, here's where I want you to look, and here's where I want you to look at, turned out to be easier for Lunar than Elastic for some reason I can't remember. It's a great observation around that. Now there's a JSON blob sitting on, you know, the massive wikis that get built that way that you could syndicate. That's really smart. It opens up a lot of cool opportunities, I think. Yeah. So, yeah, what happened to, like, maybe make this a recurring thread for conversations, just like, you know, focusing on the inter-wiki aspects, maybe a search-how approach or a common-how approach for, like, entity resolution. I think that's something that, you know... Yeah, I guess they have our conversations as well. There's a connection for me also to... So then we're kind of getting to decentralize search, and that kind of gets to mass-down search, which people have kind of been, you know... Some people like the idea of that, and some people don't. Yes. And it seems like to have the same shape as many programs in society know, where, like, if people that like it, group with people that like it, and the people who don't... who don't know, yeah, or cluster with those who don't like it, everything will work, but it doesn't work like this, because we are all, like, set of entangled. And I guess I just made my full of time because I know some people have to drop. Maybe we can move on to the presentation. And yeah, I mean, this seems like a great recurring topic. So I will just add this to the next agenda. Okay. Shall I share my screen then? Awesome. Yeah. Okay, so you should be looking at a website with a spidograph on it. Do you see it? Yeah? Okay. Okay. First up, I want to just draw your attention to the fact that this is very much in phase one of the project. Phase zero was Bill, Pete, and I working on this. Phase one is where we start showing it to slightly wider audiences, such as yourselves and other groups on CSC. It's a fully functional massive Wiki site, but in order to get to phase two, then we need to do some custom code. Right now, we're using massive Wiki, and we're using it to almost like a mock-up to show what the result would be if we do the custom code. And we'll go into phase one and do that custom code and a couple of other things, you know, depending on the amount of interest there is from the present group and other people that we talk to. But it's very much a restricted audience right now. Now, those of you who were in the friendship of the link, meaning months ago may remember that there's this idea of doing a spidograph of tools for thought. Figure out a set of dimensions that you can use to measure or characterize tools for thought. Put together a shared spidograph to help newcomers who don't know their way around tools for thought very well to find their way. And you're looking at now put of an Excel sheet right now, but the idea is that when this site is fully functional and all the code is in place, this would be a dynamic spidograph as explained. But we thought we would do a lot more than just do a spidograph. I mean, we could spend the rest of the evening and the next five meetings discussing these dimensions which is something that we will do in version one. But we do a lot more than just provide a spidograph. The map that we want to build, a map of the landscape of tools for thought is composed of three different types of content. Three different sort of page types. People, tools and practices. So let me just dig in here. If I click on people here, you'll see that there are only three people who have contributed to the site so far. This is currently manually managed, but when version one is done, the code will automatically manage this menu. I'll click on my own personal profile. So this is a personal profile. I'm one of the people. And all of this is completely optional. You don't need to provide text about yourself for your ideal thinking tool, but I thought I would. What is the meat and potatoes of this content type is this section here and the next one. I'll talk about this one first. It's a set of bullet points, which sets out my entire system for managing my second brain and my productivity and my time and my knowledge and all of that, because no one person uses just one tool. We all use a number of tools and a number of practices. So the links here are both links to tool pages, but also practices pages. Progressive summarization is a practice. You can do it using a number of tools. So it's independent of the tool. But if I was to click on inbox curation, excuse me, that is one of the practices. So there's a brief description of what inbox curation is and then the code kicks in here. We don't have it working yet, but eventually this will be generated automatically. What it will do is it will look through all of the people profiles for bullet points mentioning inbox curation and it will reproduce that bullet point preceded by a link to the profile. So you can see there are two people who use inbox curation and there's this other person. This is a bullet point from his or her personal profile, which mentions inbox curation, but also mentions pocket and Roan. So if I click on Roan, obviously, that's one of the tools. Again, the structure is very similar is what it is. I just copy and pasted it from Roan Research, but then it's got this section who uses it and how, also automatically generated where it pulls in bullet points which mention Roan from personal profiles, but it includes a little bit more data because if I go back to my personal profile here, down below my set of tools and practices, I'm giving scores to the tools I use. So I'm giving some scores to Roan, giving scores to obsidian and pocket. The first score is actually I score myself. I'm scoring that I don't know Roan that well, so you might not really want to pay too much attention to the scores I give it. Maybe you find somebody on the Roan page who actually gives Roan a much higher score. So if you look there, you see Matthew does use Roan, but he's moving to obsidian and his confidence with Roan is pretty low, but nevertheless here are his scores. If you go there to his profile, you'll find out how all of the systems he uses, all the tools and practices and a few notes about the scores. So all of these numbers are what go into, of course, the spidograph. So if I wanted to explain all of this again, I'll go to the about page and scroll down because there's a nice diagram. And the diagram shows essentially what I just explained, but hopefully it helps explain it better. We've got a spidograph here, which is like the tip of the iceberg. It's a consensus set of scores on a number of thinking tools measured by using a number of dimensions. The data is coming from the scores that are provided by people in their personal profiles. Their personal profiles also includes bullet points about their tools and practices, which are automatically embedded in the relevant tools and practices pages. So what this means is that each person profile is providing human readable knowledge, but it's formatted in a way that can be processed by code and the code can then add value to it. And newcomers can find out not just which is the most user-friendly thinking tool, but they can discover how people who have similar needs or interests, how they combine the tools and practices for their benefit. Because I'm reasonably new to the thinking tool landscape myself only a couple of years, and that is easily the most complicated thing. It's quite easy to find a bunch of tools. What's hard is to figure out how to combine them together well. I thought that would be a really interesting thing to do for newcomers via this map. And the whole reason to do it using Massive Wiki is of course, because this is a collective intelligence pilot project. I mean, we could do this using Drupal or Wagtail or any other content management system, but this is also a pilot project to explore decentralized collective intelligence. So it's got a nice recursive nature to it. If we get this map going and it helps people adopt thinking tools, then more people use thinking tools and the output of the thinking tool is raw material for collective intelligence. So that will help boost collective intelligence and we'll also be demonstrating collective intelligence, how it looks and exploring it. And just in phase zero, we've already discovered some things we didn't know we were looking for, but we figured them out anyway. And that's probably the most interesting thing to happen because pilot projects are like physics experiments. You go into them with a number of known unknowns that you want to explore. I want to figure out whether this model works or not, but it's the unknown unknowns that you find along the way, which are the most fun. So we've got a few of them, but I've been talking long enough. So I thought I might just pass the floor back to somebody. Has anybody got any questions? Stun, silence. It's pretty impressive looking. Yeah. And fairly thorough. Well, that's good. I'm glad you like it. You may have covered this and I may have missed it, but how does someone contribute to this? Is it on a... I'm glad you asked. I don't know if you've gotten there yet. I didn't cover it, but I was hoping somebody would ask. There's a page. What the page basically says is for the moment in version one, sorry, phase one. Oh, my God. That's a running joke in the team. In phase one, there are a couple of ways to contribute. You can either comment to the existing pages because we've just added a commenting function. We had hypothesis in, but then we took it away, Chris. Sorry. And if you want to contribute actually new pages, you can become a massive reader contributor. So how that works is you go to the repository, clone the repository of markdown files, and then of course those files are on your hard drive. You can do whatever you like with them. You can mix them up with your own notes. You can add your own notes. You can just use them, right? Everybody who's contributing has their own copy, but if you want to share your thoughts, make an edit, make a contribution, then you just push back the file back up to the repository and then we use Git and GitHub to version control, have a conversation about your edits and publish them to the wider web. So it's this system where the contributors have deep collaboration where they exchange files from hard drive to hard drive, but also we work together on a website which a wider audience can benefit from. And that's why it's a decentralized collective intelligence tool where you can use whatever tool you want to edit these files. You can use Notepad, Obsidian. What's the tool you started playing with, Peter, just a couple of weeks ago? It's the follow-on to Atom. Yeah, that's the way I still remember it. It's Pulsar. I think Benley had an interesting, he said data in his question. So maybe a different way to answer that. That was an awesome answer, thank you. A different way to answer maybe a follow-on question that Benley might have is, currently our thought is that people will create pages, create or edit pages, markdown slash massive wiki pages. But it would also be pretty easy for us to work with like a fill out form or JSON files, and then of course once it's JSON files, it could be ML files if you really wanted. So part of this experiment is to use human readable markdown pages as the data question in our format form thing. But we're certainly also open to data interchange in and out in other formats like JSON. So that's the future plan section of how to contribute. And if you get involved, then you come up with other ideas, you just add them to the page. We're keeping it reasonably simple for version one, but the whole point of decentralized collective intelligence is that there's a bunch of ways people can contribute. You don't force people to get an account with a central CMS and then submit it using one way. They can contribute in different ways. So right now the data format is... Markdown. Well, yes. There's multiple ways you could represent this in markdown, but so right now it's using indented and specific strings. If you mistype one of these, does it create a new section or is it not included? Just a little... TBD, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Understandably. Part of the experiment is to kind of set up pages that people can copy and edit, and then we'll see how much work we have to do to regularize that. Yeah, and one of the primary goals is human readability. So that's certainly a valid decision. Have you all already written kind of converters that will take this format and put it into data that can be manipulated into the chart? I've written similar converters, but not the converters for these pages. So the charts are all manual? Yeah, they're all mocked up. Charlie is a mock-up in a way. That's the code that I was referring to, is that we literally changed this banner to phase one. Half an hour ago? No, it's not. One and a half hours ago. We're just starting this, and if there's interest in it, then it's worth pursuing. I'm also wondering if there's an interest in creating a generic tool that reads out data in this in multiple formats. I'm using the word data very generically. But in this case, you kind of have your first bullets, the kind of object, which is right now a link, and then the next layer down are the different categories with a colon and a number, and then you have notes underneath each one at the next level. That's all really good. It'd be interesting to write a generic tool that says, hey, this is one way to represent data in a human readable format and make a generic kind of reader and converter for that to JSON or other or CSPs or whatever. Interesting idea, interesting project. And then have some kind of domain-specific language to represent the format or something like that. Right, yeah, yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking and didn't say. That's great. Yeah, and then once you kind of get it in that format, you can then have some fancy UI that allows you to sort and filter and search. It's really important, I think, for newcomers to a field to be able to read text because it's always tricky in a project like this where the content is being produced, submitted, and contributed by people who are quite expert in the subject matter, but we're trying to present it in a way that people who are not experts who are newcomers can actually understand it and there's always a bit of tension between those two perspectives. And one of the points, one of the things that we'll also want to do in phase one is to have a conversation about these dimensions, right? So this is the dimensions we came up with in version zero of the project and we've described what we mean by those dimensions in this page. But I want to stress this is phase one. We can have a conversation about that, but before we go to phase two, we want to finalize that. So during phase one, we do that converter, we finalize these dimensions, and then we get a bit of content in it, and then we can start showing it to the next concentric circle outwards, try to get more knowledge and see whether it continues to bring benefit. And I imagine that a lot is going to change between now and then, which is why I'm very glad this is being recorded because it's going to be quite funny to go back one day if we go a long way, we get to version three or four and say, oh, this is what we were talking about back in the beginning of 2023. Anyway, so there's a number of ways you can contribute to this, and just, you know, for those who, there's only a few people here who haven't been involved in the project, it's Bentley, Carl, Aaron and Chris. Is this something that you would like to spend a few minutes to contribute to in one shape or another? I'm down. Yeah, I would. I'm not currently using a thinking tool. So, like, I haven't used Rome. I guess I used to use Pocket. I'd use Todoist, maybe. I'm kind of... So there's two kinds of contributing. One of them is just contributing content. The other one is helping us think through, you know, the way that we're working on the tool. Bentley, I feel like a similar kind of... We've got TBDs. I think Bill and I both have TBDs on our pages of what tools we use. And part of it is, like, I've tried, like, 100 tools and I don't like any of them. But I think that's okay, right? It would be fine to rate a bunch of tools that you've bumped into and that, you know, that you didn't like. Yeah, give yourself a low confidence in it and give it low scores. If you're not using it, it means you didn't do it for you. That's valuable information for a newcomer. Another really interesting thing, we bumped into something that turned out to take way too much time in phase zero. But just discussing which dimensions are important and how many dimensions you can put in front of somebody who's just trying to, you know, use your tool. I think it's the dimension thing, how to pick them, how a team picks them, how you present them, what editorial decisions you've made to have just a few. I think that's a really important thing. So I think of consumer reports or a wire cutter do a really good job at saying, okay, we looked at robot vacuum cleaners and here's the three things that you have to score them on and here's how you score high and you score low. Coming down to that set of three things or four things or 12 things or whatever, it's really difficult. And when you do that in editorial capacity, you have a lot of power. You're putting a lot of power into the editorial by Cal decisions in good ways potentially and in bad ways. The tobacco companies or the oil companies control a lot or the food companies control a lot of the dimensions that we talk about things in. And in doing so, they can manipulate the space in a way that's maybe good, maybe not. So I think that's a really interesting area of exploration, just scoring things on dimensions and how you pick the dimensions and how you are transparent or not in your choices. I only got about a minute. I wanted to... I know y'all are working on this, but I just want to tell you where you are now and where you think your next steps are. So you have a user who uses a tool for thought come to this. I assume that... I guess what I find interesting is that we've got a simple text-based format, but to use that text-based format, you also need to like no get. Yeah, so it's interesting that we've optimized the data format, but there's no way to get to it without a use-learning curve. And I know we chatted about this before saying that's a gap. Yeah, so I just want to kind of... Our current accommodation is scroll down the bottom of the page, make a comment. But yeah, there's a lot of work right there. Yeah, what's interesting though is that that's circumventing that fancy easy-to-read format. I'm almost wondering if it's like something on the page needs to be... And we talk about this, but a button that toggles to the markdown format in an editor. Yeah, that's a good idea. And then we kind of use the markdown format. Or a side-by-side like our hedge doc and other stuff. Yeah, that's really close to what... In Massive Wikiland, we call that Zirconia, being able to just edit a page on top of the Git repo without getting... So I got to head out, but creating a JavaScript visualizer for this, so you could... Well, there are some out there, but helping to find one and plug it into your data. We would love that. Thank you, Belly. Thank you. Let's reach out when you think you're ready. I'm happy to help. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. By the way, you're absolutely right about Git. I didn't know Git three months ago. I've been on a very steep learning curve, but it's been cool. Payton building a great patient. Matthew, it's actually pretty good. I don't know. No, I'm not. I have no idea. I just press the buttons and hopefully I get it in the right order half the time I don't. Basically, all developers do essentially that. That and Google, yeah, pretty much. And when you screw up, you just blow the whole thing out and start over from scratch. Yeah, you just kill it, delete it, recline it, start from scratch. Absolutely. About three times. Three times. How about you, Chris? What do you think? I think it's good. I have cloned it and have it. It'll take me a few minutes to search through and do a little editing and a push and pull business. Should we add you to the repo, Chris? What do you want to do for example? You can. I don't know if it's, is it total avan? Yeah, you can add me. And I should be the traditional name I use everywhere, so. Which I don't know if I know what that is, but it's just my name with no space. You know, there's a good thing, the Welsh thing that you use. How long have you spent? How long have you spent rehearsing that? Chris, the, the Welsh, the Peter Sellers joke, by the way. Oh, no. I actually know a reasonable amount of Welsh, which helps tremendously. It does. So. It's the longest place name. I think in the Western hemisphere. Yeah. There, I think there's a place in Australia, maybe, and one quirky place in Northern Canada. That has an indigenous place name that may be slightly longer, but it's like. 54. Character syllables. It's, it's the, my favorite part is that it's got one section of the word that has the letter L. Four times in a row. Which is hilarious. But if you know at least some basic Welsh. Breaking it up into, and it's a sub segments of words that string together to make this place name. So it's a little easier. Yeah. But it's, it's kind of a universal indicator of. A level of Welshness. That you can pronounce the name. You know, in like two breaths. What's fun is my daughter has heard me say enough times and I spent 20 minutes with her one day and we turned it into a song. The song is a little bit like the one that goes with it. But it's even more impressive to write the whole thing out. And, you know, ask somebody, you know, do they know? Can they pronounce this? And of course, that's impossible. They freak out. And then I go live. It's pretty easy. Again, then you rattle it off. And then they show disbelief. And then you're like, oh no, no, like this is so easy. She like gives it a half nod and hooks up and then just spits it out But it's a town, you know an Anglesey And and they did it almost as a tourist thing there's a train station there that has a big long Map sign or a big long sign with the name of the train station It's a standard British rail sign, you know But they just needed to make find a really big one You know because he just goes on for the entire goes on for the entire platform basically You need to take a train to get one end of the word to the other Yeah, most people who live there abbreviated to long long via Or a long vibe PG maybe if they put it on you know an envelope to send posts back and forth, but Yeah, no, it's I you know after you've been doing Welsh Learning Welsh for like five or six months. It's just one of those things you run across and usually when you run across it It's pretty easy to like spit it out once you know how to pronounce the L the double L sound Okay, so I interrupted you with the Welsh thing sorry about that But I mean I don't we don't necessarily want the TFT map to be the only main subject of this meeting But three out of the four people in this meeting are the TFT map team The Chris I think it's important that you can also you know decide you want to talk about something else Because we've got a recording Two things are recordings about to run out and I'm not to run in a minute to a lunch meeting so But no, this is like stupendous that it says You know even phase one is you know much better laid out The the tougher part becomes collecting some data to make Some of these pieces useful, but I think a lot of people in the space at least know get well enough that You can get a few people to be putting data in so that it's useful both for kind of developers and People who might be searching for You know, what do I do or where do I go? I don't know how we might otherwise kind of precede You know unless a couple of us wanted to pop in and you know I I use a tool just enough to know that it exists and give myself a one or a two or three on it Provide some baseline data. I Think that you know, this is you touch it exactly why we're doing it in this phased approach You know There's there's a fair bit of work that needs to be done to get it ready for phase two right that custom code and Taking the data and putting it into a You know a spider graph There's not a lot of point doing that code if there's no content to process So we need to find out whether the phase one is basically, you know The FOTL OGM CSC crowd early adopters if the only adopters would like to contribute to it Then okay, then we can get that contribution and do the code and then take it to phase two Which is friends of friends and and take it on But as I said, it's also the conversations we have I mean we haven't got time to go into them But we've had some really interesting conversations about Well, it started with Pete talking about permanent versions and wiki pages and then like I'm working on the blogger These guys are more wiki. So I think a permanent versions and blogs is also interesting So can we figure out how blogs and wikis could coexist with permanent versions and how we can combine the best features of both content types and It's it's been a fascinating conversation and I would love to enlarge that conversation to other people So we have a meeting two hours before the FOTL every Wednesday. I don't know whether you can make it But it'd be great to see you join in You're muted Sneeze the second I guess right But yeah, I'll put it on my calendar here. Great. Okay, I Wonder if we should try to find a good time for for more people Yeah, we could do a poll I guess Because that's six o'clock so the Wednesday meeting that I've hijacked with the TF team app That was originally the Bill and Pete show on massive wiki the engine right that I just came in and Thankfully it's it's been super Super useful, but we actually do need two meetings. We need the massive wiki meeting and the and the tools for that meeting Yeah, yeah, so what we need is that page to have details for The actual location of the call to find it I don't think we have a call at all on this on the site. We've got a contact dust page, but we haven't We've got a link to the the Mademois channel. We've got a Mademois channel directly for this project But yeah, if we draw up if a number of people signed up Yeah, we'd like I'd like to get involved then we can do a poll to find out when is the best moment for for a dedicated meeting so other people get involved, but the next step is to ask other people to watch the video I guess and Maybe make another presentation if people want it We could present in a couple other other meetings to like FJB and flotilla Okay, good job. Okay Yeah, I gotta go I did the content Chris could see you again. Thank you Okay, so that's we can wrap up at least we can wrap up the video recording. Yep. I'll stop the recording