 Good morning. I welcome everybody to the 19th meeting of the Education and Culture Committee in 2014. I remind all those present that electronic devices should be switched off because they do interfere with the broadcasting system. I welcome Joan McAlpine to the committee as substitute for George Adam. We received apologies from George and also apologies from Liam McArthur this morning. I welcome everybody back in August to the Parliament, which is a slightly unusual event, but I'm sure it's nonetheless welcome. The sole item on our agenda today is to get an update on the report that we published in terms of our inquiry into decision making on whether to take children into care. We published the report almost a year ago, Members will remember, and it gave a clear commitment that we would return to the issue in the future, and obviously this is part of that commitment. We have spent a great deal of time looking at the issue both in the inquiry and, of course, in the bill, the subsequent bill, on children and young people. We want to maintain the momentum of the work that we undertook over the last couple of years and to make sure that public bodies, Government and others who are involved in the issue are responding appropriately to the challenges that we laid out in our report. I'm delighted to welcome this morning Who Cares Scotland to the Committee. Good morning, everybody. The young people that they support and represent provided invaluable support to the committee during our inquiry. We thank you very much again for that support. Before I invite an opening statement from Who Cares Scotland, I should point out that Ashley, if she doesn't mind me saying so, won the NUS Scotland student of the year award, is that correct? I did, thank you. Congratulations on that. I'm sure that it was well deserved. I hope that it doesn't embarrass Ashley to say that. I know that Ashley has been involved in the whole inquiry and has been very helpful to us during that, but Ashley has done not just great work with helping us in the committee, but has gone on to do fantastic work and has been recognised by the NUS in terms of her student of the year award. I'm now going to hand over to Who Cares Scotland for around 15 minutes or so, who are going to give us a presentation and give us their views on the report and the progress that has been made thus far. I'm sure that they won't miss the opportunity to point out some of the challenges and some of the issues that are still facing children and young people today in Scotland. I'm going to hand over to Duncan. Thank you very much. I'm going to hand over to Ashley. First of all, I want to say thanks. I am genuinely sitting here today, a different person, from the one you met a year ago. I am braver, I am stronger, I am more committed than ever to achieve, to buck the trend, to lead by example. That is why I'm delighted to be here today, to explain the impact you, listening to me and others like me, have had. I am pleased to confirm that more than we ever thought possible has come from this relationship, and yes, we do believe that we have a relationship with this committee, and we are very proud to say that. You invited us in when others were locking us out a lot of the times subconsciously. I want to introduce you to my colleagues and friends who are here today. You all know Duncan Dunlop, our CEO at Who Care Scotland. After I have had a chat with you, I will pass you on to Thomas Timlin, who is a qualified social worker and has a care experience. He will then hand on to Caroline Richardson, who is a Who Care Scotland advocacy and participation manager, and who also has care experience. Finally, but by no means least, Kevin Brown, the Senior Corporate Parenting Officer at Who Care Scotland, who also has care experience. They will all discuss with you the impact of the decision making process on looked after children and will use their personal and professional experiences to discuss how those decisions need to place young people at the absolute heart to ensure that they are involved, listened to and, ultimately, have a voice. When I was first asked to give evidence to this inquiry by the Scottish Parliament, I did not have much reason to hope for a better life for myself, never mind future generations of Scotland's children. My life was full of broken promises, my path to a brighter future was blocked. I have shared with you my care experience, and I do not want to repeat that in full, but please know that my care experience created that blocked path, and I was not sure that giving evidence to this committee would help to knock down those blocks. However, I knew that I trusted Who Care Scotland. I listened to Denny Ford when he was explaining to me what this inquiry was for, what it could do, how I could play a role, I decided to go for it and I am so glad I did. That first day in Who Care Scotland offices on 17 December 2012 was intense. Afterwards, I felt drained. I felt that I had finally lit everything out, and, kind of like taking a huge leap of faith, I put faith in those listening to do something with what they had heard from me and my other amazingly strong and brave peers, many of whom sit behind me. Those people listening were you. The period right up to the final inquiry report being published on 23 September 2013 saw a lot of my faith paying off. In fact, I had never felt so accepted, positive, respected, understood, listened. Actually, I felt liberated. I felt my time was here to carve out a new path, one filled with educational achievements, career ambitions, friends, family and, of course, my beautiful dogs at home. I had a future. Not only was I and Scotland's children being listened to, but, for the first time in my life, I started listening to myself. I managed with help the ups and downs of sharing me with this Parliament. Sometimes they made me feel sad, sore, emotional and down. Saying it all out loud and bearing in mind, I was now listening to myself and starting to believe too. That made me realise that I had had a raw deal in life. If it wasn't for a handful of people who believed in me and loved me for who I was, then I may have thrown in the towel. This is where Mary Bateman, my advocacy worker, comes in. She has seen every single part of me. In fact, she embraced me and all parts of my ID way before I did. She was by my side. When decisions were getting made about my life, she was always right there. Life was tough in care, but I know it could have been a lot worse if it wasn't for Mary. I wish everyone of Scotland's children had a Mary, because see what this committee did in this inquiry by inviting us, listening and acting? That's what Mary does every single day for children and young people just like me. She has no idea of the light and the love that she brings into my life. Let me give you a wee update on what I have achieved over the past year, and please know that if I had not started this conversation with this committee back in December 2012, I really am not sure that I would be able to tell you what I am about to. I started working with Hooker Scotland, having taken advantage of a community jobs funded post that they had secured, and I have loved it. I helped to kickstart the national campaign asking Scotland to listen, to look after children, and now I am one of the faces of that campaign, which has grown arms and legs. I overcame about a one in a 251,000 chance of becoming NUS Scotland student of the year. I, who was on my third chance at further education, had never won anything in my life. Then myself, along with those who also gave evidence to this committee, some of whom are sitting behind me, were awarded the Young Scott community award and the overall Young Scots of the Year award 2014 for what we had done. Can you imagine what that felt like? Being stars for a night, being recognised, being praised, being us. Having us and our identities not only recognised, but being judged in a good way, the best way. In fact, most of Scotland's children in care don't get judged in a good way, and they all deserve to feel ultimately what we did that night. I am off to study a BSE in politics and social policy in September at Stirling University, and I cannot wait. Me, a graduate, bring it on. In fact, one MSP raised a motion to congratulate me on my achievements, and the First Minister wrote me a personal letter. Can you imagine what that feels like to me, coming from the childhood that I've had? I want every single one of Scotland's children to have a year like I have had, or their equivalent. Every other parent strives for this for their own children. They help them to find their voice, grow as a person, dream about their futures and never ever lose hope or faith in who they are. We need our corporate parents to want this for us. Why? Because people are interested in what we have to say, and change is possible. In fact, change is inevitable. This journey with you in this committee has inspired me to want to sit where you are in 10 years' time. You have sent a strong message to every single MSP and decision maker in this Parliament and beyond, and we have sent a strong message of hope and change to Scotland's children and young people to quote that famous phrase of past campaigners, nothing about us, without us, is for us. Because when you bring us in, include us from the absolute start, then we can do change together with each other, guiding each other, using each other. That's democracy, and what we have seen with this inquiry is democracy in action, and I will do all that I can to ensure that it continues. I am now going to pass you on to Thomas Timlin, who will explain his consequences of not being involved in the decisions made in his life. Thanks, Ashley. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Thomas Timlin. A bit like Ashley, who you know, and Kevin and Caroline, who you will hear from, I could also be considered a successful Caleva. I am currently a development officer with Who Care Scotland. I have graduated as a qualified social work practitioner in 2014 and was awarded a monthly trophy from the University of the West of Scotland. During my time with Who Care Scotland, where I was providing advocacy for individuals and groups, I have heard many young people share their experiences with others. In doing so, they have challenged repression, inspired change, and found their voice. This led to the most important changes in the law for over a generation. That's why being involved in decision making matters, and it is why, in turn, I am here to share my experiences. Because throughout my time in care, I was not included in decisions that were made about me. For many young people, what happened in this committee was unique. It was the first time they felt they had been actively listened to. This committee legitimised the care identity. The experience was an empowering one, but not just for those who made with you. I was in power too, and it is why I am here today. I wanted you to know that your actions went much further than in this room. I was born into a large family, and I am part of a sibling group of seven. My family began engaging with social work services six years prior to my birth. In and out of care, my twin and I were always placed together, but we were never sure when we would see our siblings again. From birth, I was used to moving backwards and forwards, from a former care placement to back home with my birth parents. I never questioned this because it was my reality. My reality was also social workers coming in and out of the family home, and my time with parents abruptly coming to an end. Sometimes because neighbours would hear my mum and dad trashing the place. Sometimes because social workers would find us in carrier bags instead of nappies. Sometimes because my parents had taken to squatting in order to get us a house with a back and front door. My life was full of change, and I don't remember being asked what I wanted. Life was a mixture of new foster families, new schools and new cultures. Once accommodated, I would not see my parents for several months. I wouldn't see my brothers and sisters, and I wouldn't know where I was going. My longest foster placement lasted for around three years, from the age of three until just before I was seven, and unfortunately it wasn't good. In 2013, after I was required to give evidence in court for two full days, my foster mother was found guilty of abuse towards other young people and myself. The experience was traumatic, and I had to relive my childhood with certain aspects being laboured during the trial. This was my life, my story being lived out in court, and none of it on my own terms. After the trial, I was approached by various newspapers, journalists and lawyers. This almost broke me. People wanted to talk to me about the consequences of the decisions that were made about me. If only they showed that interest when the decisions were being made. After the sheriff found my foster mother guilty, he stated that the conditions I and the other young people described during evidence would match a decensing description for life for the private children. The care system and everyone involved in it told me that life with my birth parents was wrong, so I assumed that where they were putting me would be right. Unfortunately, it was those decensing conditions that became my new reality. Now at the age of seven, I might not have been able to articulate what was going on. At such a young age, I was not even able to identify that the way I was being treated was unfair, never mind criminal. But, if I had had someone that I had a relationship with, whose only obligation was to me, perhaps things would have turned out differently. Look, I wasn't a bad child. I didn't ask and I didn't deserve any of this. No one does. My belief at the time was that I was being treated in a particular way because of me, who I was and because of something that I was doing. The belief I held was completely wrong. I was not a bad child and my social work record, sorry, continually described me as a young child who was eager to please everyone. When I was around the age of six, my older sister told my twin and I that adoption plans were being put in place for us to be adopted alongside our younger sister. We were to be adopted together. I remember my twin and I running around the living room. I was ecstatic. I was going to get a real proper family, something I had never experienced. I was finally going to get things that I could say belonged to me, a home, a mum, a dad, just a family. What I don't remember however is being asked whether I wanted to be adopted or been given any choice. The day I had to say goodbye to my biological mother was the saddest day of my life so far. I can still feel that pain talking about it today. Imagine being told that you're never going to see your mother again. Now imagine having no one to talk to about it. Imagine being told that now it's time to move on because the decision has been made and that's that. Unfortunately, contact with my other siblings did not continue either. Despite all of us being promised that we would always get to see each other. This happened abruptly and we didn't get to say goodbye to each other. It just stopped. No-one asked what I wanted. We just didn't get to see them for what we thought would be forever. There was no-one to make sure I had a voice. At times life with my adoptive family was challenging and unfortunately I can't offer this committee a happy ending. What we thought was going to be our forever family ended the day of our 16th birthday when my twin and I woke up alone. This time the house might have been furnished, the water might have been hot and the cupboards might have been full. But again, we were still alone. For my younger sister who was under the age of 16, another placement move was on the horizon. For my brother and I our carriage unended with us sleeping by cycle paths and in railway stations. Excuse me. We went in the title to support and we had no-one to talk to about what's going to happen next. At this time we could have used that person I spoke about earlier, whose only obligation would have been to me. We could have used this more than ever. To this day I struggle with trusting others and allowing others to be kind to me. I fear being let down, rejected and abandoned. I believe this is because I have never had someone who has been continuous in my life, anyone who has shown me unconditional love or even unconditional positive regard. Access to an advocate will not only have assisted me in my most challenging times. It would have better placed me in my endeavour towards self-actualisation. For example, my year at college and four years at university, I had to work full time to support myself. An advocate would have made me aware of the funding I was entitled to. When I have been anxious and worried alone, an advocate would have been a confidential open ear, someone I could trust whose only obligation would be to me. I'd like to thank you all for listening to me today. This is the first time that I have ever spoke publicly about my care experience, so thank you very much. I feel very privileged and honoured. I would like to pass on to my colleague Caroline. Thank you. Thanks, Thomas. Good morning. My name is Caroline Richardson and I am an advocacy and participation manager with Who Cares Scotland and also a care leaver. I am here this morning to share with you my personal journey. The purpose of this is to demonstrate how outcomes have not changed for care leavers since I left care in 1989, the year the UNCRC was ratified in the UK. Having worked as an advocate, I have had first-hand experience of amplifying the voices of young people in care who are not at the heart of the decision-making processes and let us never underestimate the amount of decisions made on behalf of those young people before, during and after care. I was taken into care at the age of four. No explanation was given why I could not live with my dad and I don't think at that age I would have understood. Throughout my first period of care, my relationship with my family became strained. We became strangers. I went back to live with my family at the age of 10 due to the children's home closing down. Things very quickly deteriorated within my family home. When I did see my social worker, I would often say how unhappy I was at home and that I felt that I should return to care. Unfortunately, it took for a serious incident to occur before I was returned. Very quickly, however, plans were put in place to rehabilitate me back home. I returned once more to the family home again and things broke down. So, when I returned back to care, my confidence and self-esteem was low and that manifested itself in my behaviour. I started mixing with inappropriate peers and getting myself into trouble. After not being listened to for so long, I eventually got support from my guidance teacher at school. She said that she would support me to get my point of view across. She advocated for me at meetings and helped people to listen to how I was feeling. Unfortunately, she moved to another job and, very quickly, I was being told that the best place for you is back with your family. My advocacy support disappeared as I had no right to it. I went home for the third time and things deteriorated to the point where, when I was taken into care for the last time, I lost contact with my family for several years after that. Having experienced seven placement moves and three periods at home, I was finally moved to foster carers at the age of 15. They provided me with a nurturing and stable environment and I thrived. At the age of 17, I was encouraged by my social worker to move to my own tenancy. Being a teenager who thought that she knew it all, I readily agreed but very quickly realised that it was a mistake. Once in my own tenancy, my case was closed by social work and I was on my own. I struggled as I had no idea how to budget, how to pay bills or how to live appropriately within a community. I just remember that having lived in group 11 for so long, the silence was deafening. At that point, I felt embarrassed about my care experience and chose to move on with my life, keeping my past quiet. The Children and Young People Act will at least enable caregivers now to get the support that they need when they need it. It was only when I joined Two Care Scotland as an independent advocate that I realised that things for caregivers had not changed much since I left care. Despite major advances in legislation, policies and procedures, the young people still felt that they had no voice. They were not listened to and their outcomes were still very poor. Working as an advocate, I was able to challenge that on an individual basis but the majority of care-experienced young people still do not have a voice. During the evidence-giving process of this committee last year, I was in awe of care leavers like Ashleigh, how they talked about their care journeys and experiences and how they were prepared to use their experiences to make things better for young people in the future. Then, I realised that what they were doing was creating a movement of change. They instilled in me a sense of pride in my care experience, which is why I now have the confidence to share this with you today. It was through this process that care leavers who shared their stories contributed to the changes in support for care leavers up to the age of 26, now contained within the children and young people's act. That will go a long way to improving outcomes for young people and care leavers in the future. Thank you. I would now like to pass you on to my colleague Kevin. Thanks Caroline. My name is Kevin Brown and, like the others, I'm here today because I've got care experience. I'm also a graduate. I'm a safeguarder. I've travelled to the world. I've worked as an advocate, the same as Caroline. In my earlier career, I spent four years working at the Office of Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People. All of that personal and professional experience has enabled me to develop a deep sense, a deep understanding of children's rights and the issues that affect what looks after children. Currently, I'm the Senior Corporate Parenting Officer at Hooker Scotland. During this inquiry, I was responsible for engaging in supporting young people to articulate, process and share their story with this committee. I myself was struck as to how little children and young people understood about their life, why decisions had been made and their lack of involvement. I admired the way in which this committee listened to children and young people and in turn how this gave young people the courage and desire to share their stories with the hope of making a difference. Like Thomas, this process has inspired me and behind my professional experience lies my own care experience. I've really spoken in depth or in public about this and in many ways I've worn a mask since I left care due to the stigma and discrimination. It was the young people in this process of liberation which helped me and others to remove these masks and claimer care identity. This is something which I must credit to the committee for it was you who started this whole process. Like our young people did during the inquiry, I would like to share a little of my own experience and the significance of getting decisions right. Similar to the others, a decision was made to take me into care at the age of three. During my care journey, I was separated from my brothers and sister who was adopted and I didn't see for 13 years. I experienced a number of foster placements, moved between nine residential houses, went to four different primary schools and I've been cared for by over 100 workers and behind each of these moves there was a decision. Decisions which changed, shaped and impacted on me, my brothers and my sister and I'd like to share one of these with you. My two younger brothers, sorry my two brothers were looked after from an early age like myself and both had left care before they were 16. A decision was made to return them home and this of course broke down. At 16 they had little to no support and it resulted in both of them experiencing homelessness and isolation. My oldest brother Paul Brown experienced mental health issues and hung himself at the age of 18. Five years later my younger brother Andrew Brown overdosed on drugs at the age of 18. Two massive and life-changing decisions were made five years apart yet they had the same outcome in the form of my two brothers dying. On one hand, on the other hand sorry, I left care at the age of 18. I fought to stay, I spoke out and I made sure that I was heard. I was able to advocate for myself. A few months ago I wrote a personal letter to Aileen Campbell, the children's minister, to thank her for the difference that I believe the provisions within the Children and Young People Act will make and the added protection it should give young people in the form of continuing care. Why did I do this? Well because I know more than anyone else in this room what the real impact and the real impact and consequences of making poor decisions can lead to. Whether it's children remaining at home too long, making decisions to send them back home or whether it's deciding that they have to leave care at a young age. I don't know how I managed to become what people may describe as a successful care leaver but what I do know is that I had advocacy at a young age from the age of nine. This is when I started to understand my rights and found my voice. So what are the challenges that exist today? Well in real terms I see and still see people homeless and on the streets that I grew up with and I have worked as an advocate with the children of people who I lived with. I always asked myself where was their voice? Did they have one? Four weeks ago I graduated from Strathclyde University where I completed a degree in education and social services. My childhood and youth advocate Ray McLean was one of the people who I invited to celebrate this alongside me. I also invited my younger brother's foster family, Marion and Ed Crango, as well as Tony MacDonald, a young person with care experience employed at Hoocare Scotland because I wanted him and other young people with care experience to know that they can go to university and they can achieve their ambitions whatever these may be. I'd like to thank the committee for the way that they've listened to children and young people and I believe the independence of this committee is a massive strength. It's my personal and professional view that all young people should have a right to independent advocacy to make sure that their voice is heard in all decisions. I know that my two brothers would have benefited from this and so would the thousands of young people who don't currently have this in Scotland. Just for a final overall conclusion, you've heard from Ashley, Caroline, Thomas and myself today and we're all recommending the same. Young people need to be heard. They need to know that someone will be by their side when every single decision is being made and not just at the point of entering the care system. That someone must be separate from the systems and structures that govern the care system. Truly independent. The consequences of good and bad decision making is clear. You know it and we know it. We thank you for listening, thank you for welcoming us back and we'd now be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Kevin, can I, certainly on behalf of the committee, thank all of you who have spoken this morning, I know it can't have been easy to have done so. These are difficult stories. Before I bring in my colleagues, can I ask a question about process? You raised the issue of process. We as a committee took a decision before we started the inquiry to take evidence in a slightly different fashion than we normally would. Normally we would call for evidence, we would bring people in front of the committee in a formal session with everything being recorded and written down. That would be the normal process. We decided to do it slightly differently, as you will remember. We met you, as you mentioned, in the Who cares Scotland offices in Glasgow on a rather wet December day, if I remember rightly. We tried to take you and us through a process that would maximise your ability to give us the maximum amount of information and input, but would allow us to get the maximum amount of your evidence. We felt that that was done differently from the normal process of evidence-taking. What I want to ask is how you thought that went as a process, because that was the first time this committee had done it. I don't think that any other committee has done it that way before. I would like to know how you felt that went. What was good about it and what was bad about it? What mistakes did we make? We want to try and learn from this experience as a committee about how we can best approach young people, particularly those who are vulnerable or in care, or who have difficult stories and difficult experiences that can be very traumatic for them to effectively be a group of strangers. If you could give us some of your thoughts on the process that we undertook, so that we can learn from your view of that process how you thought it went. As I said to Stair, one of the things that I really loved about this evidence-giving was the fact that you came into our space first and got to know us as people, which a lot of other people may not take the time to do. They may just go, well, tell us and then we will go away. That was the first thing that you came into our space rather than us coming to you. It can be very daunting to share your care experiences. It felt quite strange during the first evidence-giving, because you are not really sure of where it is going to go or what any of you are going to take away from it ultimately. At the end, it felt very good to have that release, if you like, because, as I mentioned, it was our first time speaking about before-care experiences. A lot of those emotions were still quite raw. Overall, it was very well done in terms of the key points as to when it all happened. Ultimately, it is confirmed that what we are doing is right in terms of doing this to change the bigger picture. We are not doing it to change things for ourselves as individuals. I would say that, for me, supporting the young people, I felt that the process was excellent. What we found in an analysis afterwards and it came up during the process was that it was not necessarily the way in which it was done. It was excellent because we have got relationships with young people, which secured their interests in giving evidence, and we used that in the right way so that they could share it with us for the purposes of the inquiry. However, what we found where the learning was was that the majority of young people, if not all, were astounded by the lack of life story work that they had done. We found that they had questions about their life that were unanswered for years and that, when we started to explore giving evidence and we had done the preparation sessions, they were discovering things about themselves. They were finding out things from other young people about their rights and what they could do and when decisions are made. For some people, there was just a complete lack of understanding and the majority of young people had not talked about their before-care experience. The learning for us is that professionals, social workers, whoever is supporting the young people, foster carers need to be doing more life story work with young people because it came at a stage where some people were 18, 19, 20 and they did not understand their life before care. That was a process that we helped them with, but they also needed support from. That was a key learning for us. Thank you very much for that. Colin, is this a supplementary on this issue or is it moving on? It's different. I'll bring in Mary first then. Thank you. I associate myself with the comments of the convener. I wasn't on the committee to hear all the evidence. I've only been here since March, but I totally agree with you. If we don't listen to you, we're never going to get it right. I'd like to thank everyone. I appreciate that it wasn't easy to give the evidence, but thank you. Can I take this forward a step, although it might be a bit early? To me, the big challenge is now about implementation. You've been very complementary about the committee and we've got a very good children and young people act. I wonder if I can just take a step forward, because I think it was Kevin who said the systems and structures that govern the care system. I think that it's fair to say that they need to change as well. If I could just very briefly, when we spoke to a relatively small number of young people, social workers must improve their communication skills. Another one was that there has to be a clearer fit between children's hearings and other looked-after children's processes. To explain to young people, there are also things such as within the children's hearing system, the delays and blaming social work for delays in their reports. I also understand that the social work degree is being changed so that prospective social workers are fully aware of the criticisms that you've made today and to use them in a positive way to make these changes and also the constant change of social workers. I heard that impacting today. My question is really, and I apologise if it's a bit too early, but the hope that you've got, do you feel confident that this act will bring about changes within the children's hearing system and within social work? Do you feel, is there anything that you've seen so far, or is there anything that gives you hope that what you're saying, we appreciate it's written in an act of parliament, but will it actually happen on the ground? That's basically where I'm coming from. I think, from my point of view, going back to Christmas when we found out about the act and the extension and aftercare and the provisions. I remember speaking to Duncan and I said to Duncan that there was plenty of provisions within the 1995 Children's Scotland Act and that young people were, and currently are, still being failed under the legislation that exists. For me, I believe that systems and structures do need to change and that the reason why this committee was so successful is because they were independent of these culture systems that have operated for years but continuously produced poor outcomes for looked after children. Now, I know with the children's hearing system and the Scottish children's reporters that we're working with them to improve their services, the functional aspects of hearings, but for me it's the culture and at the moment young people are still homeless, people still use excuses of lack of resources and these are constant. I believe that currently enough systems and structures haven't been changed and it's the culture, but I also believe, like I said earlier, if a young person hasn't got someone alongside them, where that only interest is their welfare, then this act won't produce any better outcomes than the one before. Can I just ask a supplement on that one? I mean, I live in Highland and obviously they're ahead of the game but I actually find it very difficult to get that advocate, whether it's for over 16 or 18, it's very, very difficult and are you confident that more resources and training will go into advocacy because I think all of you, Ashley, Caroline and Thomas, you all spoke about that one-to-one help and support that gave you that voice. I mean, is that happening or? To be honest, I don't think it will because of the lack of resources that local authorities often talk about and unless it becomes a statutory right, I don't think young people will get the advocacy provision that they need in terms of who cares. Can I ask, is there a duty to provide or is there a statutory right for each individual to have advocacy because there's a big difference there? My understanding is that there's no duty or statutory. There's no statutory right to have an advocacy worker. An independent advocacy worker. And for me, I think, unless that happens and in some areas there's no advocacy provision, so in other areas there's maybe one and a half workers. So when I was an advocate, it was me and half a worker for 3,500 young people. Obviously we didn't work with all of them, but that was the young people, the numbers who were looked after. So that's key to the success of this piece of legislation? I believe it is. And do you feel that the changes in the SCRA and the Scottish hearing, the children's hearing system, I appreciate they're not all bedded in yet, but do you feel that's moving in the right direction and hopefully better partnership with social work, do you feel that that culture is changing? Well certainly from a professional perspective and working in partnership with these agencies, there is a desire, but also if you look at the fact that the majority of children's hearings take place between 9 and 5 when children are in school, you would then question, is it the culture that needs to change, because we're still having hearings, taking young people out of school has a massive impact, massive anxiety, and the latest stats have shown that young people, again in education, they've dipped again in terms of their positive destinations and things like that. So there are improvements, but again I think it needs to happen at a wider level. We need to keep an eye on these measures, thank you very much. You said you're from the Highlands and I think there was a pilot in the Highlands relating to that and I think my understanding is that the act is going to be putting the GERFEC policy into statute and within GERFEC there is the ecological framework of assessment. The young person's views are required to be taken into account, however the pressures on social work practitioners at the moment I believe hinders their ability to be able to do that independently, especially when they are acting on what they perceive or what they analyse as being on the best interests of that young person. And I think what Ashley described in comparison to the service provision that I received was that there was someone there that, the basis of their practice was relationship and they built that trust in relationship and it was only when Ashley received someone who could, who she knew, the owner obligation wasn't to her, the line manager who was dividing resources, it really was her and it was her that was directing it, was then when our assessments are needed were more accurate and then the proper intervention was implemented and that's why we believe that all young people in the care system in Scotland should have that universal right and a universal understanding of what advocacy is. Thank you. It's just finished there but as an MSP for the Highlands since 1999 you know and I've had a lot of people in in the last month and when I ask who's your named person so that I can work with the named person because I think that's important and I haven't got any idea and that's really where I'm coming from. It's the difference between what's on paper and the duty that we have as members of parliament to make sure that that is implemented but thank you all very much. Just while we're on advocacy let's stick on that now then I mean and I'll bring in Neil in one moment. Just from memory it's the case that legislation states that young people's views must be taken into account but it doesn't state how that must be done that's the basic line. Okay sorry Neil. In terms of can I thank you all for your testimony again this morning. In terms of advocacy I think you've all kind of touched on that. I just wanted to know if your thoughts would, do you think every young person should have advocacy or is it just a specific group of young people? What sort of role would you see working as a post-it child social worker? I think the role of an advocate is completely different from that of a social work practitioner. A social work practitioner has an obligation to work in the best interest of that young person when an advocate is there to provide information, support and enable them to articulate their views. It adds an extra level of scrutiny on to practice and enables the young person to engage in processes which they tend to find quite difficult which is like engaging and which is a world leading children's hearing system. And I genuinely believe that access to an advocate would enable others to reach more positive outcomes. And I believe today we are here representing young people with care experience and that's what we would believe that it would be young people with care experience or those who engage with the hearing system that have that universal right. And I think similarly to those who suffer from permanent health, there is a legal right and a universal right when they engage in legal processes that they have access to an independent advocate. And I think when young people in care go through similar legal processes, I think it's only right that that universal right is extended to them. Does that make sense? I understand. In terms of general issues, in terms of children, you looked after children being heard and obviously we talked about what happened in the committee process. Generally, as we move forward, obviously we've done that as part of the bill, as we move forward, how do local authorities and government best listen to young people more generally on policy issues, do you think? I think there's children's champions boards that have been set up certainly in Renfrewshire. I don't know if anyone's got any comments on those and how effective they are and how moving forward we best listen to all the thousands that looked after children that there are. There are champions boards in different local authorities in Scotland and they are spreading far and wide, which we are very happy to see. I think a champions board gives young people and professionals a chance to meet on common ground, not only that, not only just to discuss what's going wrong but what is going right as well because I think it's important that we identify both. Not just that, the young people are getting to know their corporate parents who may represent them in many different forms, but I think that as well from what I can gather from the different champions groups, particularly one in Dundee, there is very much a sense of belonging, a sense of identity, a sense of growth and development, which is very encouraging to see. I would encourage any other local authority in Scotland that hasn't tried it to give it a go. You won't know unless you try, as the saying goes, and I'm very keen to promote the idea of a champions board. In terms of young people's identity, I think that what the champions board, particularly the champions board in Dundee, for example, has been able to achieve is something that a lot of care leavers say they lose when they're in that system, is that their sense of community and their sense of identity within the community. What the champions board actually does is empower young people to take ownership again of their community. That could be young people who, for whatever reason, have not lived in their community for numerous years because of their care experience, but come back and want to find their voice again, want to be an active citizen. Things like that. We talk about citizenship and a lot of the times a lot of these young people don't get to experience that because they're moved from local authority to local authority, placement to placement, and I suppose for myself it was like trying to re-engage again and trying to re-engage within a community and know how to do it appropriately. Things like the champions board gives the opportunity for young people to actually really do that again and to really take ownership and to be that active citizen that most of the other young people get the opportunity to be within their communities. I would like to add my personal thanks also for sharing your stories with us. I personally find it very valuable. We've been talking about advocacy and in relation to children's hearings, during when we were taking evidence and also my experience outside that, it would indicate that increasingly lawyers are becoming involved in children's hearings mainly in support of parents' rights. Now, to me children's hearings were never intended to be a courtroom and yet you obviously, you know, if parents believe that they need a lawyer to support the rights and advocate for them they're entitled to do so, but most people at these hearings are not trained lawyers. What's your experience been of this? What's your feeling about the involvement of lawyers? Does it disempower the children that are at the hearings and how could it be changed? If I could give you an actual example of one of the YPWs that I line managed, had went to a hearing about, sorry advocate, I'm saying YPW, I'm getting into who cares speak. One of the advocates, Ally managed, had attended a children's hearing four weeks ago and it was quite contentious that the parents were no longer together and basically the young person had minimal contact with the parents but the young person had to attend the hearing, so obviously the young person is there with their advocate and parent turned up with lawyer, sorry the mum turned up the lawyer, dad turned up with lawyer straight away, the young person became distressed and really quite upset, the young person asked the panel members if they could speak to the panel members by themselves, that's something that we encourage young people to do if they are feeling quite anxious and quite stressed within that environment. The two lawyers actually argued quite vorosiously against it to the point where the panel members or the reporter, sorry, had to actually turn round and say well no, the young person was not allowed to be able to give a view by themselves just with the panel members, so the young person ended up walking out, couldn't actually deal with the dynamic of having all these people here, he also couldn't understand why the parents had lawyers when this was supposed to be his meeting, so for me I think that's an issue and I think it's actually going to get worse and you're going to find that actually the hearing system may become more about the parents and less about the young people and that is very concerning. I mean clearly that's not the intention of the focus of what's trying to be done, the focus should be the young person, but how do we deal with that? I mean this may not be something you've got an answer to but it may be interesting hearing views, having experienced the care system, how can we manage that? I think it's about trying to put the young person at the centre in front of all the decisions that are made in their life, so I think when parents are represented by solicitors, the solicitor is then directed by the parent and they're not at that hearing with the best interests of that child at heart, they're there for the best interests of their client and I think if people are entitled to legal representation then that's their legal entitlement but I think if they're attending a children's hearing I think we need to have probably guidance from government and at all levels to remind people about who's hearing it is and what the portals have been there and I think an attendance of some of the children's hearing, the only people that should be there is people who have a specific interest about that young person's wellbeing. So you think that stronger guidelines from the government to the children's hearings might be helpful in terms of managing what the priorities are there? I mean the priority should be simple shouldn't it? There's some general points in terms of this but we're struggling potentially culturally to really put the children and the young person right at the centre of these processes. There's great things in that again the children's hearing act 2011 etc in terms of you know bold assertions at the child that this is really about them and yet it is very interesting if we look at the advocacy issue or the representation to have a voice that they just don't necessarily have the right to have that voice heard. There was a case I was told about the other day where a child said he actually wanted to move placements so called his hearing as was his right but then social work were quite determined that this wasn't going to happen so they were going to attend the hearing and put the point of view about why he should remain where he was but he did not know he had the right to get any access to any advocacy so he just didn't bother showing up at his hearing so it was never actually heard by the hearing in terms of and I just felt what the issues were for him because he didn't have it and what we'd have as adults if we have an issue with our employer if we've got issues even domestically with you know a divorce or something we're there we're represented by somebody to make sure our voice is heard and articulated yeah for these children we've not even given them that right and there's big decisions in terms of what's happening with them in terms of how often you'll meet your siblings you're taken into care but you know that sibling relationship really matters even if the one with the birth parents doesn't uh isn't isn't so important or whether you're moving foster family or somewhere else and we know even you know the guy said today did about you know a day two days preparation to come and speak and what's probably not dissimilar to the feeling about going to see a children's a children's hearing in terms of a big very influential forum it takes a lot of courage and for those children who have far less experience and understanding of what they're going through they just want to get in here and out they don't necessarily comprehend exactly the implications of what the decisions that can be made within that within that hearing process but our biggest realisation and it really was as the guys have alluded to was um what the process through talking about our care stories and our care journeys uh with this committee and with government and to a great degree with the public in general is that we've reclaimed this care identity and this is something people can belong to now it's the same we've looked at very much within the issues around race gender sexuality this in the same sense is an awakening of a movement which you know potentially by accident we've kicked off together but it's really grown arms and legs we've now had over a hundred young people claiming their care identity got 40 over 40 plus who are telling their care stories a safe place and when its time is right but we know that we probably only have access to about 15 percent of the looked after and care experience young people in this country and that's not for the want of trying it's where a certain contract will only let us look at those young people in residential care in one area or have seven hours in another area it's not that somebody else is doing it in those areas it just doesn't exist or at best it will be a children's rights work who's meant to be delivering that so our learning is really what wow look at the power and the benefit it gives to individuals when we give them a voice and when they feel as though they were included and look what happened when it wasn't present and uh and so what we're trying to say is we're spending was at 2.5 billion on a care system and i know that's an estimate by government we're spending probably about 0.1 to 0.15 percent of that budget and hearing a child's voice in this system and what we know and what we've really come to realise is that this care system works anything else we did with disability mental health that we put the service user or the client or whatever the child at the centre like with self-directed support we're doing for a lot of other things is saying if you're at the centre of this and we hear how you're experiencing this you are the expert then we can best define the service for you as an individual and one guy who's in care who's still going through a tough time said i remember asking the question what would you change in the care system he goes ah but that's a problem it's a care system isn't it but i'm an individual why don't i actually have a system that suits me this is caroline ashley thomas etc and it's not there because we don't give that voice and it's great the court for parenting in the children young people's act it's great some of the provisions to stay within the care system but that is the little bit which are those who are delivering their care services we must if we want to find out where it's going right which is really good for individuals and where it's not going so hot i say let's hear that voice because we know that we're going to look at the behaviours and go oh that child you know isn't doing very well and not on a positive destination at best and the criminal justice system you know and the homelessness system how do we actually stop judging them for that behaviour and go right back and go well how did they experience care because it feels like a rejection by society i was never heard i don't get this i don't fit in and the continued rejection means in the end they don't necessarily do not have the skills to participate in the norms of our culture and the way our society works so our realisation is this voice to young people has been the most amazing thing to witness and to be part of which is wow what happens if we give a lot more young people a voice so when they go to that difficult time from when they start to be looked after at home or into the hearing system etc we go you're okay there's other people with you you're a sense of belonging this care identity and this is very new in the last few months in terms of saying let's claim this care identity the sense of power and positive force that's giving to young people has been so palpable in the sense of that's okay i don't need to be worried about that label like kevin saying now in his early 20s saying i can now take off that mask i can now say i was in care and it's really important that so around the houses with it the one other aspect i would say is you mentioned champions board and dundee david ddodd the chief executive there chairs that group says it's the best meeting your tens every quarter and he says he doesn't he has the anecdotal evidence this is making a significant impact on their um uh the educational outcomes of the young people and dundee because they have a voice to deal with individual case studies they change it for them they say right this is our policy for how we'll change it for others and if we look at this government it's great there's attention this committee's been right at the centre of it but next week we're in front of the equal opportunities committee we're in front of the welfare reform committee we're in front we've been in front of the health and sport we've been in front of the finance and the point is if we actually just connected all these elements of government and saw this child in a sense we were looked after one to one and a half percent of our youth young population which we know is going to extrapolate out and currently is up to 50% plus to 80% of the young people we're locking up in young offenders a 30% of those are going to be homeless why wouldn't we focus on them there's not a fault with them they're not wired wrongly and this is one bit i was disappointed in in terms of the conclusion report or maybe it was just those really early year stuff and that scar tissue's carried on and we've done our best but it's what's a shame in terms of what's success for care these guys have done it i'm just so proud of them for doing it but it's not by accident it's by the resilience by the people who got around them they've given them a voice within this and i guess then so what would really work is in a sense of saying there is your voice let's connect our government and policy let's make sure you have a voice and understand there's something separate to your parents and the care system that is there for you what you want to happen do you understand what's happening and explain it because we're not part of that and we're not part of this we're here to help you comprehend this whole process that's going through so it is a sense of real credit to you because you've opened our consciousness to this you give us the self-confidence to do it and now we really think there is a way for us to really identify what's going right and wrong here and it'll be down to individuals it's not the system that'll be broken it'll be great quality care of there and not such a quality care of their poor decision here and we will really go on a journey of discovery with this that's what's so exciting about this just to pick up on a couple of points that you made there and also to fair and back some evidence we received are there just too many organisations and people involved in this in the decision making process i know when we were taking evidence we took evidence from a large number of bodies and they were by no means all the people that were involved i just wonder given the experience of participants that were shared with us previously are there too many people involved and how could that be reduced i would say that legislation has a minimal intervention principle and i think practice is guided by that by that principle however i think it's everybody's responsibility to make sure that young people in care are okay and i think we should share that responsibility right across our communities and that half is many people involved because just as your children that stay at home will probably have numerous people involved in their life whatever clubs they go to or their school or just people in the community to the know so um i personally and professionally do not believe that young people have too many people in their life who are there to represent them or who are there with an obligation for them and about their well-being and i think the responsibility has to be just like in girthwick shared across the community because we're all scotland's young people and everybody should share in that responsibility i also think it's probably for me it's more about how the agencies are involved you know do we have to have a young person sitting at a children's hearing with someone for education someone from health you know someone from their local club and have all these adults you know what about reports and it's the same with looked after reviews as well do we need to have the cast of thousands sitting round you know and that young person in the middle feeling quite intimidated or could people not actually just do something as simple as submit a report i think we need to be i think thomas is right in terms of it is good to have i mean that is girthwick is having that you know support in the multi agency support around a young person but i think we need to look at how that support is actually given you know does there need to be a physical presence presence is there other ways and other creative ways of actually enabling young people to take ownership of their meetings and not having all these adults you know having to physically be there so i think for me that's probably the challenge is to maybe just you know we have the building blocks there we do need the multi agency approach but i think it's how we do it i think i think could be changed better and actually you know and could have the young person more at the centre the young person could have a choice who actually physically attend their meetings you know so i think we just need to be able to be a bit more creative in terms of how that young person has control of what is their meetings i think at the age of 13 14 having attended looked after reviews there was always this lady in the corner that never really spoke and i asked who she was and it turns out she was the educational psychologist and i said well what's she doing here i don't see her and from that moment on it was agreed that the educational psychologist would no longer attend my looked after reviews because she had no no relationship with me she had no input she wouldn't come and see me at school she there was no reason at all for her being there so i have to agree with caroline i think it's it's down to choice as well thank you um jone i'm actually specifically on on that issue of children's hearings because one of the things that struck me when we took evidence from the young people was an issue they raised about hearings and they asked if it was possible in advance of the hearing to state what they wanted and in particular they were concerned about if they didn't want their parents present if they could say that in advance rather than having to say it in front of the parents where obviously the issue that caroline raised is extremely concerning with the parents and the lawyers but for these young people it was just to be able to put something in place in advance i know that the hearing system is being reviewed is there any indication that that will happen i think yeah as i said before we are working with children's here in scotland um and the scottish children's reporters um and there is certainly there is certainly changes that that will be happening um for me i think but to go back to i think the crucial point is you know they could send out a questionnaire that said who would you like at your hearing but it's about asking identifying there needs to be a process where the child identifies who they would like to support them at their hearing again who have they get a relationship with who's going to be there for them and that doesn't currently happen what young people get is um is forms called all about me forms and it asks them if they like the food where they live in quite functional things and i don't think it necessarily gets to the heart of why young persons behave in a certain way what's actually going on in their life what support they need um and i think it could be much more individualised but it's about that young person identifying that person had their relationship with to help them and support them okay and also another practical question it's very apparent from what you've said about your own experiences and others that the role of advocacy needs to be strengthened who are the best people to be advocates i mean i know people who work in the community as volunteer advocates but do you think advocates need to be professional people or is it appropriate to have them as volunteers because when if you go to something and work in that show union represent you it's going to be somebody that's going to either know what it is they're going to work or they're going to be professional themselves and i think when we're asking for representation we want to be represented as best as we possibly can be and i think we need to have someone who is qualified to do so someone who comes from the same value base that we come from to enable that we're properly and is represented as best as we possibly can be it's an interesting issue because there's advocacy and there's a whole debate around what advocacy actually is we believe for the children young people who are in the care system the care experienced they actually need relationship-based professional independent advocacy now there's a continuum of advocacy i'm not getting the detail of this too much but basically if you want your foster mum to be your advocate that's great but there may well be a conflict of interest because the local authority wants to move you from that foster placement to go over the foster care you can't do it so there needs to be a way in a mechanism whereby there is somebody potentially who's independent who can deal and understand and interpret the process and procedure of the children's hearing that can explain what's going to happen when that occurs who's there in the young person's terms so in general it does need to be more towards a professional end we're looking far more at some of the group stuff the pair to pair type advocacy in terms of the connection it's more the youth work element in terms of that's where they connect oh you had that you had this where Kevin was saying the young people preparing to give evidence to you guys with suddenly understanding they could get access to care leavers grants whatever else it might be so there's some really informal stuff but what we find is really interesting we're doing quite an intensive review about this internally is it could be a what change your colour on my bedroom but I'm testing you can you help make that happen because now I'll tell you what I want to happen in my hearing and now when I've got that relationship with you and I trust you I want you to come along then you can actually really help me represent my voice in terms of I want my sibling contact and I'm not getting it or I don't want to stay in this foster placement I have big issues with it so it is quite it's interesting and resource wise we're certainly not about in terms of just creating this an entire industry profession around it it'd be quite nuanced but they need to have access to that and it can't be someone who just turns up at the day meets you outside and go oh I'm your advocate for the day because again that's another person there's no relationship with the young person needs to you know advocate what does it mean it's really you know you have to explain that to them in terms of I'm not part of the social work system you might feel as okay as being done to you I'm not part of your your birth family system I'm just here for you that can take a bit of time to understand and in the intensity of being in the process of the hearing and the anxiousness that can come you don't meet them in the foy it needs to happen well before that and of course I would imagine that in terms of what you're saying although you want a professional person there also has to be the commitment to remain with the young person for a long period of time because lack of permanence in terms of the people that you contact in contact with is a real issue isn't it? Well one thing we determined because you can never actually determine whether someone will stick forever we also hope to do and we have some very long-term advocates Mary Stawood issues with Ashley over 10 years ago still an advocate in that process is we're trying to give them as an organisation or a relationship with Who Cares Scotland so we're looking very much at the fact that you end everywhere with your care journey you end a new transition and you move on to something and we had it that you ended with Who Cares Scotland at the age of 25 but now with the support of Life Changes Trust and others we're actually now looking to extend basically you when you become when you enter the care system you can become a member of Who Cares Scotland it's your organisation it's your membership and you don't leave it unless you want to until you die so you can be in your 80s you can be wherever you want because this is where you belong your care experience defines you as having the right to belong to something forever and that is where the relationship is therefore where they can connect with other guys we're doing now a lot around connecting young people who've just been in care because there's this whole issue of removing the labels and without the stigma of feeling judged so they find it actually a really relaxing place and space to do that to the same degree whereby someone want to go out publicly and champion and be in places like this and tell their stories to just others saying I'm a member of that but I know others are doing that and I'm really chuffed that that's happening to the fact I've got a relationship with that advocate so we know it's a wee bit more nuanced but currently the services are all about how we fix these young people are not really about going at their pace on their journey because what we won't do and we're really clear on is ever deliver a care service so we're not going to be opening a supported accommodation you know in Leith or something because then we're delivering a service they may won't need advocacy but they do need to belong to something and this is where this care identity is so key that has been released see this work thank you Jane that's convener and thanks to everybody for their contribution this morning it's been quite humbling to listen to some of your contributions and I just want to ask a little bit about advocacy in my role as an MSP I've meet with young constituents and sometimes they have an advocate with them and sometimes they don't and Thomas talked about how that changes the nature of the engagement and I've certainly had that experience it does change it if a young person's an advocate I can't quite say how or why but I know it does so I think it's a good thing and I'm wondering how we can deliver that because it seems to me it's a bit of a lottery sometimes a young person's got an advocate sometimes they have it and I'm thinking how does this all work how did you get one I don't know and I completely take the point that should be independent but do you think whose care Scotland should have a lead role in that how do we get that standard and that access to advocacy made more consistent across the country how do we get the consistency and the leadership and taking that forward so I'll ask the one thing I mean yeah this becomes where we start we're conflicted between speaking for young people and from an organisational perspective but our major issue is we're conflicted in terms of independence because we have to if where we have it we have to have a contract with a local authority and some just choose not to have it with anyone so you're immediately let's say any local authority they commission you to deliver advocacy to speak up for the young person who's part of their care it's already a problem if a significant issue happened it becomes you know that's potentially conflicted ideally and this has come out in Wales the other week the Welsh Children's Commission was saying around the lack of advocacy provision there it ought to be a national it ought to be in my mind in our mind in terms of who cares Scotland commissioned by government in terms of we need to make sure and it's a way of holding to account in this case system that a natural fire advocacy is being commissioned in each local authority area but by the government to help hold to account and give voice to those young people who being cared for by the local authority it needs to be independent structurally and governance wise from that local authority area and then it can have true independence and then you would have more consistency of provision there'd be a way of you know we have some visions in this in terms of when you enter care it's really clear that you're introduced to your advocacy walker it's made clear that you're part of a different community but it's very much there with your people sharing experiences so there is that element that we totally believe and commit to the fact there needs to be nationally commissioned advocacy that's operating at a local level because that will give it true independence that will get far better quality information to help parliament hold and the government to hold local authorities to account another corporate parents told them to account thank you once again i think told me sure you said it was a privilege and honor to be here i can i i say in those whole process it's been a privilege and honor for me to work with the people at who cares Scotland and thank you once again for informing our process today one of the things we did look at in the the course of the inquiry was about the decisions about permanence and i just wondered if you were seeing any changes in the time it takes to get to to a permanent placement for young people and if you feel that the as you've called it the system is actually taken on board the inquiries recommendations in those areas i think it's still quite different i'd have to say across the country you have some local authorities who are making a commitment and a real commitment to actually speed up the process and also engage more with the young people and include the young people in that process and we've certainly had an increase in referrals across the board asking for our advocates to support young people and just make sure that throughout the process that their views are being shared every step of the way but it's still very much a lottery across the country some of our advocates have got cases where you know that the permanence process gets to about the 11th 12th month and actually it's still on going and there could be varying factors as to why it's taken so long but that young person's still sitting there 12 months down the line when they'd been promised you know the forever family type and they still don't have it and you know i can't you know i can't directly pinpoint if there's a specific reason as to why we're still having these long periods of young people being a part of that process but it is there is areas that i can see that it is actually improving and it's improving very much and for me that the key is to actually have the young person engaged and involved in the process right from the start and a lot of the times you know our advocates will take that journey with the young person and actually you know it becomes a really positive thing for them whereas you get the scenario where you're trying to advocate for the young person who's saying i've been waiting for 12 months for this so we're seeing bits of improvements but i still think there's a there's a bit of a way to go okay thank you very much can i ask one final question before we move on obviously we had the inquiry as this committee did we had well two inquiries which effectively became one and then we had the children young people bill which is now an act of parliament i suspect is very early days yet very early days to come to a conclusion on all of that work but do you think do you have hope that that work in that act are actually taking the system in the right direction i'd like to think so after you know all the work that's been put into it i really hope that we do see someone concrete coming out of this and the changes that ultimately need to happen otherwise we're going to be sitting here in another 10 years talking about the exact same thing i myself have very high hopes for the act you know i think in some ways you know when when kevin was speaking about his two brothers that unfortunately died due to not having that support you know hopefully that's something we're going to see a drastic improvement in because at the end of the day our young people need to be supported they can't just be left to disappear or to you know end up in tragic circumstances that they can't pull themselves back out of so i myself individually i have extremely high hopes for this for this act and i hope in years time when you know universities are offering their social policy courses then we'll maybe hear about some work of the children and young people's Scotland act so that's my view anyway i would agree with ashley i mean certainly my story demonstrated that actually the support for care leavers i mean that was 24 years ago and that actually nothing had changed and i think what the act allows corporate parents to do now is to actually think out the box and be a wee bit more creative i know that people are worried about the impact that it will have or are we going to have 18 19 year olds in children's houses and you know that's the kind of thing that i'm hearing in very local authorities just now and actually i don't think that'll be the case if you ask an 18 or 19 year old do they want to be in a children's house no i don't think they do what it potentially will enable these 18 and 19 year olds and 20 year olds to have is continuity relationships i think a lot of the young people that i've worked with over the years if you ask them you know what you know what was the kind of positive parts of being in care a lot of it is well i had this key worker called joe and you know she was i had a brilliant relationship she was absolutely fabulous and that wasn't for her i wouldn't have got this this and this but then when i left the children's unit she wasn't allowed to work with me anymore you know this really allows for the joes and for the other workers who are so dedicated and who do build relationships with these young people when they're actually within within the residential establishments establishments to maybe continue it beyond so to me this is about innovation it's about people thinking out the box but more importantly it's actually now about the care leavers being able to say this is the kind of support that i want and actually have it tailored to their own individual needs. I will also share Ashleyam Caroline's views with the kind of hope and aspirations of the act in terms of you know currently there are challenges we work with young people who have to fight for everything to get money to paint their flats to get a bed to get a microwave and with the act will come challenges i hope people local authorities decision makers see it as a positive and that it will help young people to not have to fight for so much so with the increase of entitlement i would hope that there will be a change in the culture and that also instead of seeing people's stats and numbers on reports people will get to know young people will get to understand the real issues that they're facing and that they'll implement the act with young people and not for them. Not even to them. Thomas. The sentiments of my colleagues here and i think is a qualified practitioner. I think the act to be or I perceive that to be extremely impuberant and i think it's the beginning of putting young people at the centre and the forefront of everything of sorry service delivery in general and i think being able to stay in your care placement and being encouraged to stay in your care placement until you're ready to move on and do that transition into independent living is literally something that could be life saving to someone and hopefully we'll begin to see more of Scotland's young people achieving positive outcomes and one of seven and not all my my siblings have managed to achieve positive outcomes and i'd just like to see more people being able to do the same as me. Thank you. It's a really positive moment for me that the biggest issue was it sounds like interesting language what was kind of happening with this because I remember sitting in the in the parliament on February the 19th when this was passed through several hours of the debate and the one issue that there wasn't a pinhead of difference on across political parties and this really said it for us was was on this issue about raising the age of leaving care because you all said you'd listen to the young person's voice and that for me was it we've known this we haven't known we've lived with this issue for generations in terms of poor outcomes of children we're actually spending a huge amount of money on in the sense of finally it seemed to be a sense of ah this is what we've heard from them here is a solution we look after them for longer if it is with long we're aiming to get them in long terms trusting loving stable relationships that's where the key is how do we make sure they're within that there's big challenges in this what's the culture or how can i get away with implementing this in terms of what comes out in guidance can i turn change the name of a homeless accommodation into supported accommodation that won't work but some of that stuff might happen this is where we need to be right on top of it in terms of scrutinising how this is actually implemented there's big challenges which none of us have come up with the answer with yet which in terms of how do we do return to care the intention was there but we didn't have the blueprint that needs to be followed through because those two are degree the most vulnerable leaving at 16 yeah i can conquer the world and realising two or three months later i can't but i can't get back in because my bed's gone in that unit so in that residential house so there's huge challenges but for me what's really happened and it's what it's really worth knowing we've had people from scandinavia to new zealand etc looking at what's happened around this care identity saying it's kind of lifted a lid on something there and we can't put it back on in terms of it's such a positive force how have you done that you embracing a care identity along with what i was so chuffed to see with you know parliamentarians getting this issue understanding yet right this is maybe a solution to this is seeing what these guys are done and real credit i'm so proud of them in terms of them telling their stories and taking ownership of this because it's going to places not many of us would ever talk about in terms of telling the stories and helping us understand their lives so we can make better change because what we really want to see is to stop judging their behaviour but to see that as are we got something wrong there how do we get it right so great optimism with the app but we're going to have to keep our eye on it i think that's a good place to to sum up that this committee has made a commitment though to do just that hopefully do slightly more than just keep an eye on it but i think we share that we have a shared outcome in mind and both you and this committee well i'm sure will carry on working towards that shared outcome with many challenges ahead i'm sure but hopefully with some optimism as well can i thank you once again on behalf of the committee for coming along this morning and giving your evidence next week we will take evidence from Scottish government officials on the progress made on the inquiry to date and before i close the meeting can i ask both the witness panel and the members of the committee to stay in place for a few minutes after the meeting thank you and i close the meeting