 It's been a long, long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I'm going to see a friend. Hello. I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cowth. And we are speaking from The Rooftop, a podcast brought to you by Tan Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Well, hello there. Greetings. How are you? I'm doing well. Don't fall over that rooftop. I'm on the edge. You're on the edge. I'm always on the edge. Looking out. I'm always holding you back. I know. You're a very risky actor. Oh, I hate, I can't stand being on the edge of the heights. I, you know, I used to not be concerned about them at all. But as you know, I had that experience in Italy when I was stupidly free climbing and fell off that mountain. And that was a many story fall that was saved miraculously. And ever since then I, my legs quiver a little bit when I get to the edge. Yeah. Well, I was born with that quiver. Okay. You know, well, my dad has it very honestly. Well, it's more rational than not, right? I mean, there's a reason that that quiver kicks in. It's saying you should not be doing this. Well, it's a little irrational when I'm watching on television. I see an allege and I feel the quiver. All right, I'm not going to fall through the television, but it's not real. But it's amazing. I mean, do you remember when we would go skiing out West in Utah and the place we went to in Alta at the time didn't have any bars going across the chairlifts? Yeah, I know. It's, I am sorry. I realize all the skiers, everyone who's ski their whole life and all the, oh, you don't need bars. It's safer without them. No, it is not safer. 50 feet in the air. Remember what you would do? Make us put our poles across my waist and lock them in. And I would like put my arms around the back. I'm sorry. No bar in front of you. Some places were more than 50 feet high off the ground. You're the reason the kids have to wear helmets on bikes these days. Perhaps. Yeah. Perhaps. But that is dangerous, isn't it? Being too risk adverse, not helping us. No, life's dangerous. No, no. Sitting in an open chair, 50, 60 feet in the air with nothing between you and the ground is not normal. And the destruction that leads to you sitting in a rocking chair at the age of 50. Come on. That's normal. Oh, gosh, I feel nervous already just thinking and recalling. I want to say we have since learned that they put bars across those things. They even alter folded. What do you mean folded? They got wise. If I were their insurance company, I would have pulled the policy. That's why you're not insurance. Yeah. No, no. Listen, I can be risky. You know, I was at a parish. I wanted, you put a little bit of regular in the decaf. No, no, no, no. Like, for example, I remember now that I'm on this side of the diocese, I understand why I was rejected, but I wanted to have go kart races over at St. Thomas for our World Feast. And I'm thinking, we need to get go karts in here. We had to go to tricycles. Did we even put helmets on? I don't even know if we put helmets on. Of course we did not. No, we didn't put helmets on. We were in tricycles. They were like adult size tricycles. Yeah. And then we had a little course that we did. But I wanted to get the golf, the actual like karts, like let's have races with karts. And then of course our, our properties officer and rightly said, yeah, that's a liability issue. Like what? What? We can't even do race cars, like go karts. You know, so that I got a little riskiness in me. Well, I mean, that's a good, good topic, right? I mean, when one is authentically living life, there are certain things that are worth risking for. And I think that the, the, the payout versus the, the risk is a difficult thing to sort of adjudicate in ones, in ones own mind, which is why they typically say that, you know, you can't really develop any prudence until you're of a certain age, etc. When you're young, everything looks possible and beautiful. And then you get older and the older you get, then you think everything's too risky. Well, there is a certain biological thing that occurs in the brain, right? But beyond that, I mean, so that says our friend Father Gober, I mean, he was born old, born old risk adverse, much more risk adverse than me. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But I mean, nothing really happens. You think about look at these old pictures. Did he say that he wasn't going to lend you money because it was too risky? So yeah, that was it. I threw him under the bus here. But Father Gober and I have been in the same class since kindergarten, been friends since then. And somewhere in high school, I needed money to go out and see a friend of mine. And I was flying out of California or something. And I was short like 60 bucks or something like that. And I said, hey, can you spot me 60 bucks? And back then 60 bucks was a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, no. And I knew he had tons of money because he never spent any money. Of course. And he worked. And we were in high school. And I said, are you kidding me? We've been friends of our lives. And he says, you're a risky investment. Yeah. Yes. You're not a good investment. I always paid my debts. I always paid my debts, but I was always broke because I was always doing something. Oh, yeah. Now he sold you down the river. Yeah. Yeah, that's true risky. Anyway, so you were saying that I already doubt your thought. Well, no, no, just thinking about risk analysis, right? We do this a lot. We're trying to avoid all risks. And yet most of the things that we laud amongst men of the past were things that we wouldn't even consider doing. I'm not talking just about, you know, Shackleton going across Antarctica, which is one of the most amazing stories in history. Unbelievable. But anything. Yeah. I mean, you think about what people were capable of doing in the old days for the purposes of exploring where you and I are living right now. Right. What kind of adventurous spirit. And the fact that this was worthy of throwing your life at, those things are difficult, I think to sort of adjudicate it. And I find that as we get older, we're so surprised we lived this long. Now we have an expectancy to live long. Right. And then that we get used to being around. We get used to being around. And we started to be self-preserving. The old days. Yeah. We didn't think about it. It was just assumed. Yeah. Now if someone dies at seven, you're like, oh, that's a shame. Right. What are you talking about? Like 70 is pretty no offense to anyone 70. I mean, I just turned 50. And I think that everyone celebrates 50 traditionally, because they realize we won't be around another 50. Right. And if you get back, if you get back from the doctors, if you have a diagnosis, we're not going to be as surprised as we once were. Exactly. Exactly. Although I think 70 is the new 60. Oh yeah, all that. It's gone down 10 years to be sure. It's amazing. Because I remember even when I was first ordained, you know, in the mid, people dying in the mid 70s was kind of expected. But fast forward 20-some-odd years later, it's not the same. I think 80s is the expectation. Yeah. I think the 80s is the new 70. Yeah. But that sense in us that I've got to be a bit more careful now because I actually shouldn't have survived the things that I did. You know, some of the things that I did that were somewhat foolish, not just foolhardy, but not calculated the best. Some of my favorite memories, actually. Yeah. And it depends on what it's worth risking for. I mean, it's just for one's self, one's adventure, one's high that one gets. It's a different thing. And the kind of risks that you and I would have to take in a normal world where things aren't sort of taken care of for us. Well, I mean, well, let's just, I mean... You liked those Alaskan shows, for example, that you did. Yeah, exactly. Some of the greatest risks we take are interpersonal. You know, where we become vulnerable to people. It's not life and death in the same sense. But, you know, when we become vulnerable to another rhythm, it isn't a huge risk. Yeah. And I think that people are probably more familiar with that terrain of risk taking, or for that matter, being risk adverse. And I think it causes people being risk adverse or self protective in the interpersonal realm. It probably prevents a lot of growth. It prevents a lot of relationships developing. I mean, you can't, whether it's a marriage, whether it's a friendship, or whether it's a relationship in a family, vulnerability is an essential part of it. And you can't mitigate it. You can't, you can't control the vulnerability. Either you're vulnerable or you're not. Sure. You can't say, I'm vulnerable, but I'm putting this wall up and this protective measure up. Well, then suddenly you're not vulnerable, right? That you're invulnerable. And you lose something in that relationship. And we all know what it's like to feel crossed or manhandled, so to speak, in that vulnerable space. Yeah. Where we've been doggie jostled because, like, a little something bruises a little more, a lot more easily. Yeah. Like I would say to couples in marriage preparation and talk about this, this measure of vulnerability, you know, if I said to you pointing to the groom, will you just pass me the salt, kind of like in a bad attitude? Fine, here, take the soup of salt, right? You would just kick it back to me and you move on. It would be no big deal. But if she said to you, you just pass me stupid salt, wait a minute, we could be on the brink of World War II or World War III, brother. I mean, this is totally different. The same little jab is going to have a very different effect because of the vulnerability that the relationship or the space that you have, the interpersonal space you have with one another creates. And that's a tough terrain. I mean, I didn't mean to shift it from being risk-averse or risky with your own life, the same sort of thing because it really is just to make it full scale here. When our Lord speaks about the loss of one's life, it is the prerequisite to actually getting into heaven. Then unless you lose your life, you're not going to find it. And what does that mean? I mean, we can abuse that statement and so far as we're talking about relationships and so far as one allows themselves to be trampled upon interiorly in such a way that it's sort of abusive, what have you. And we meet people like this that have whatever the psychological terms would be relative to someone that thinks so low of themselves that they want to be a doormat, to be abused, to be the person that is that everyone else's beck and call. They surrender to it. But that's a different thing than giving your life. That is not giving. In that way, you give up. You resign, we wave the white flag and your territory is conquered. And that can't be obviously what our Lord is speaking about. No, clearly it isn't. He's clearly talking about the actual gift of it. But when he walks away of the cross, according to tradition, he falls three times. What does he do? Well, if I'm carrying a wooden instrument of execution on my back and I'm collapsing under its weight, knowing that when I arrive at the location, I'm going to be nailed to it, I would just collapse and stay and let them finish me now. Right. I mean, it's going to be horrible either way. It'd be a little quicker if I drop. Why do you get back up? Well, because he's laying down his life, he's not giving up. Yeah, no one takes my life. There's a huge difference. He says, right? I lay it down freely. He's laying down his life. So he was in pursuit. And then we could also say clearly that in most of our, as you mentioned, with the salt example in most of our relationships, there isn't that sort of commitment to the person that we meet at the grocery store, that there is with the person that we actually part of our family and our persons we've chosen to be friends with, et cetera. And that's the realm in which we're sort of literally in a daily basis kind of laying down our lives and being willing to be hurt by another for the purposes of actually loving. But there's all sorts of, as you like to say about onions, all sorts of layers to that. How deep is what in you are sort of circle? Although, occasionally a driver hits me to the core on the way I was driving in. I'm like, you are so rude. You did not let me in for no apparent reason other than no, you're not getting in. I'm not letting you in. I always just went from zero to 60 on the inside. I was thinking about that recently, because you meet so many people in the course of a day, you're never going to see again. Yeah. And so part of my attempts, and I don't succeed, the part of my attempts is to try to keep reminding myself that's the only time I'm going to encounter that person probably in this life. And what was the encounter? I'm a priest, et cetera. And so I was on a road here in Charlotte, and the traffic in Charlotte has just gotten horrendous. And these cars were queuing up to pick up kids from Montessori school. And I was at Black Hawk and Park Road Shopping Center and over St. Ann's. So I was taking the back road there, not realizing that all these cars queued up in a snake on both sides of the road. So the only place you could actually drive on that road was down the center. And someone was poking out into the center. So I was committed. I couldn't turn around at that point unless I backed up all the way. Long story short, I asked him if he could just pull up a little forward so I could get by him. And he said, no. And I said, just right there. He said, I'm not going to block that driveway. I'm like, well, you can go right back where you were. I just didn't get past you. And then I'm not waiting for someone. I'm not picking up anyone at the school. I'm just driving through. And he just looked back down at his phone. So I got out of the car. I think I scared him thinking I was going to be aggressive. I just thought he didn't understand what I was asking. And so I went up to the car and I said, could you just move up here just a little bit so I can get by? And he just says, well, I guess it's just all about you, isn't it? What are you talking about? And I thought to myself, it was no difference to him, right? It was no difference, right? I didn't make any difference to him at all. But he was trying to make a point. And I just stood there for a moment, completely dumbfounded, thinking these are our normal relations. And I can react in a number of different ways here. But I was so struck by the fact that the abrasiveness that we have our normal relations now, because we don't have many, that those small moments, and maybe I'm getting off topic here, but those small moments when we're talking to the clerk at the grocery store or we're making connection with someone, people don't have those anymore. Well, it's a violation of a social contract, right? The reason why we have niceties, the reason why we have manners, the reason why we have certain formalities is to lubricate society. It's intended to sort of a social, general social contract. We all kind of know the rules, and when someone violates it, it goes past the exterior and kind of hits to the heart. And you realize that was a serious upfront. Now, objectively, it's not serious in the sense of what we're taking a little bit longer to wait for the car to move. But it was serious in the social arena, in the social rule, or to mention because it was kind of a violation of our norms. It's a violation of how we interact. Like, you know, if I'm sitting there and somebody wants to get by, I usually don't even have to wait to be asked. Are we trying? Look, exactly, it's kind of what you do. Yeah, and that's, you know, not sort of a Lockean. Right. So it's not so much an issue of vulnerability. The fact that we're in a, we live with persons. Right. And for this thing to actually work, we do actually have to treat other persons the way we would treat someone with whom we are vulnerable. Right. This is kind of what we do in society. Yeah. Which is why it's so difficult when you go to a different culture and you're unfamiliar with the customs and the norms and the niceties and the formalities and even the formalities of language of using formal versus informal, you know, and there are some languages are more complex relative to their formal structures. But it lubricates society. It's, it serves a very important function and purpose. It enables all of us to be on the same page. And we do feel when someone is outside of those norms, a certain personal front and a corporate front. Right. Right. Like who does that? The reason why we're asking that who does that is because we're bringing in the rest of society. And you know, we're saying as a measure. Testified of this. Yes. Be a witness to this. As a measure, we don't do this as a people. And you're violating that norm and we feel aggrieved. But it goes to show you the wisdom of the simple statement of our Lord, right? Doing unto others as you would have them do. Yeah. It's a very simple rule. Isn't it? But how would I expect and desire to be treated in this situation? Don't really live up to it with me. Well, because our Lord has instructed me. A private revelation. A private revelation that you need. A special type of treatment. Your father has spared you the rod and spoiled the child. Oh, oh, believe me. So this is your dad's problem. My dad has a special rod. It's incessant. It's called a microphone. It's incessant teasing. Yes. He taught us all. All right. So let's go back to the vulnerability lane. Because I think I do feel and think that people spend a lot of energy on their relationships. You know, they, you know, where are their minds? You know, what's occupying? We are, we live where we love. Right. That's it. You know, exactly. We are bound up in our relationships. And the more vulnerable we are in our relationships, the easier we're hurt or wounded or offended. And the easier it is for our faults to emerge. So for example, it's one thing to be vulnerable at a level if somebody, especially if somebody is doing something that's a little bit off or inconsiderate. But it's another to have a vulnerability that isn't just a vulnerability because I'm in a deeper, closer relationship with a person, but it's because it's rooted on an insecurity. It's, it's rooted on a, it's rooted. This vulnerability is, it's like more like a bruise. Yeah. It's, it's rooted in a wound. So it's not just because this is a deep interpersonal relationship and a little slight move causes just a bit more of a feeling, a jibe. But if I have a wound in that area, a bruise, it's exacerbated at a hundred-fold. And so somebody with a fault, let's use me as an example. Sorry if I just hit the microphone. That's pretty glaring. Yes, shush. So if I just, I don't know if I just get the rope. I use my hands when I talk. It was dramatic for you to say that, right? When you said, take me for example. Take me for example. I, yeah, and I pulled my hands up. It's not singular by the way, plural, but keep going. Or whatever. So if somebody does something, you know, with whom I'm in a close friendship or somebody in my family and it hits, we might say a nerve, but it's not a nerve because the nerves are supposed to be there. It's more like a bruise. It's a wound. And it's, oftentimes people talk about triggers. Sometimes, you know, you know, we say, you know, it's just, it just hit me in a certain way. Right. What can happen is my reaction is so disproportionate that it's unjust that my reaction is crazy off the wall. Now the person on the receiving end of it or any observers are going to think, what just happened? They just lost their mind. They just popped, you know, or something like that. And what really happened is the person themselves, like in this case me, would look to blame some, you know, to say you were the cause. Yeah. But if I'm truly honest, I am 90% of the cause. You're 10%. You hit it, but it's because it's a wound that it hurts that bad. Because it's so bruised. If it wasn't bruised, it wouldn't have hurt that bad. Right. Yeah, sure. And you have to own that. You know, otherwise relationships get so entangled. It's like patting someone on the back when they've got a massive sunburn. They didn't know. They didn't know. And you scream. And you scream at them. Did they do it? Yes. But your reaction is proportionate to the pain. Right, right, to the pain. And you can be frustrated with the pain, but you can't be mad at the person. Right. Because, all right. So maybe the person shouldn't have slapped you a little hard in the back, but it was good natured. It wasn't meant to be, you know, whatever. But if you then turn around and start punching the person that did that. Right. That's not right. And this is, you know, just talking about really solid friendships. You have talked about before about you get to a point with your friends like, I'm in for life. This is just it, you know. Let's just skip the fighting and start talking. Because we're going to be in it for life. We're not going to break this thing up. No. And it's even more so with the case of the kind of friendship that is, that is marital, right? When you've got a vow. Yeah. You're a variable. And you're extremely so. And you're constantly hitting someone, whether you like it or not, where they're bruised. And unfortunately we also know where the person is bruised. Where we can just tap, tap. Yeah. And it's going to cause them a lot of pain. And then they tap, tap, back. And you're like, what? What? Yeah. All I said was. Oh, of course. Yeah. And then tap, tap, back. And then you're in a spiral, right? Yeah. And it's so important to recognize these things. Yeah. I think that a lot of marriages run into big challenges because it's not just the relationship that needs work and effort. But you are an instrument of purification for each other. Which means you have to change. You have to be on the path of growing and becoming better. You have to fight your demons. We tell couples this, right? And I live in a different world in the seminary where I came out of a world talking to couples about marriage, perhaps saying that this means that the person to whom you're marrying, right? I don't want to say it's the cross per se, but it kind of is, right? You're marrying the instrument that's going to bring you purification. And yet I'm in a different world now talking to the seminarians about this insofar as that you don't finish seminary and then you're sort of a finished product such that you're going to get out there and be the perfect priest and have the... I'm done with the cross. On the contrary, it's the faithful that are going to be the thing that purifies you, your actual responsibility to your work, your labor in the field, and both their good treatment of you and their mistreatment of you. That's going to expose those things and it's going to be the purifying agent, you actually doing your job. Exactly, or in living your vocation. And I like to tell couples at their weddings in particular during the homily is to say that they will not only bring out the best in each other, but the worst, and that it's meant to be. It needs to happen. And it's a sign of a marriage not failing but working. But the marriage fails in the sense that the relationship starts to disintegrate when the individuals don't start owning up to the problems that they're bringing. You have to and it's vulnerable, it's hard, it's humiliating, it's painful, but I know of no other way and let me just be the first to say, it's not just people who are married. This is the way of the cross. All of us have internal defects that need to surface to be able to be addressed, healed, wounded, bound, the wounds bound and ultimately glorified in the manner of our Lord's. We've always commented on the fact that in iconography the saints are always shown with the instruments of their torture. And I just was looking at an image of St. Lucie recently. We know she's got her eyeballs on her plate now and whether it's the cross or the sword or the pinchers or whatever the thing might be. That which caused them the most amount of pain became the thing that we exalt in heaven, at least for the martyrs. The same thing is true for all of us in some degree. And I think it's hard for us to accept that that the thing that is the place where the most broken can, God can make all things new and desires to, that will be the very thing should you pursue it. That is the thing that you're going to hold in some sense in heaven and say, he did this. Look what he made out of this. This is almost like it's a trophy as opposed to the thing that you want to keep in the back of the closet or hide or be ashamed of or whatever else the brokenness that you've got. What's on you now on? Yeah, it's going to manifest his glory. And manifest his glory. It's a good place to pause. That's a good place to pause for now. Yes, sir. That's good. I think we were just talking about risky endeavors. You never know where we're going to go. Well, we never know where we're going to go. That's true. All right, so what's your before you go? You know, I just every time I see people they're talking about, hey, Father, I was listening to that from the rooftop or whatever. I get asked a lot. I'm not sure about you. If you do, you guys really just start talking like, yes, yes, we do. That's what we do. I've actually had people say, why didn't you flesh this? I'm like, well, we didn't put together a syllabus. Exactly. You know, that's not what we were doing. It really we are as billed. I could tell you that much. Yeah, that being said, if anyone does have a topic, they want us to just muse on happy to do so. Or if we skated over something that you glossed over something. That you want us to kind of circle back to we're happy to. I think we try to stop each other if we're assuming some things that maybe we shouldn't. I think I do that more with you. This is true. I live in more of an academic world right now. You do. I live in a very practical world. But that said, it's easy enough to kind of gloss over, especially with our own common lexicon, the things that we talk about. I can just simply say one word and a whole slew of concepts come your way. And then you piggyback on that. Right. So sometimes it's hard to listen to other people's conversations because there's insider languages, context and background. But we have to do, I think we're doing our best to kind of fill it in. Yeah. Well, fill it in. Before we go, father. Yes. Well, it is October, which means we need to be thinking about the winter. You're thinking about candy. No, I always think about candy. So I don't need to wait for October. That said, I've noticed it's become really particular about candy. You have? I really have. Wow. I've become world weary. So I'm... Because you were, you were important. Anything goes. Important any storm. I was important any storm, yeah. I take a teaspoon of sugar and if I needed to. Now that's gross. I wouldn't do that. I would melt it down in water and make rock candy. But that said, I have never done that. At least since I was a kid. I was taught in school, they taught us in science class how to make rock candy. Anyway, I did that as a kid. I haven't done that since. I'm not that bad. Okay. But I was thinking about winter coming around the corner. And there is the ski season that is emerging. And I think we got to start putting some plants together and be able to come back after a little ski trip and tell people about our experience. Oh, I'd be happy to. I love skiing. It's one of those sports you can still do as you get older. The problem is that I haven't aged in my mind. And so last year I was able to ski quite a bit, actually for about a week and a half with some family and stuff. And I did some really precarious... What about six-week recovery? No, I never got hurt, thankfully. But I should have. Yeah. And I don't know how to slow that down. Yeah, you're going to have to attenuate. Because here's what happens. Let me tell you, because I do have three or four years on you. You get just three, I think. Is it just whatever? I've got just a tiny bit of a preview for you. And I think you've experienced it too. It's like when you're hitting the moguls, it takes at least at the level that I can ski them. It takes a fair amount of muscle in my legs. Now, I go over a few of them and I'm pushing the muscle. And then in an instant, they stop responding. In an instant. They run out of gas. And then the next thing you know, you're coming over the top of a mogul and it becomes a launch pad. It becomes a jump. And you start, you go, and you fly up in the air. Do you do that sound effect again? Fly up in the air. So it's one of those, you have no recourse. When your legs don't respond because there is nothing left in them, it's a bit scary. It's really hard to believe that we ever get to the point where there's nothing left in our legs after the extensive amounts of workouts that we do all year long. Considering how these very muscular legs exist. So they're only a reuse to hold down an ottoman. That's right. So obviously we're talking only about seven hours of constant skiing, only after seven hours do I ever get there. No, but to true this, it could be like five minutes. No, I mean, the enjoyment to power a ratio, to energy ratio on moguls is at the point now where, yeah, I don't enjoy them as much. And it's a bit scary in the sense that we are so accustomed to speed. And we're not trying to speed past people. But as you increase in your ski or your ski or life, you become very comfortable with speed. And you just kind of move it along. But if you stopped and considered how fast you're going, and you've got trees to the left, trees to the right, people over here, people over there, bumps here, you think this is kind of treacherous. It is. It's kind of treacherous. To sum up earlier, it's a risk worth taking. It is a risk worth taking. Wow, beautifully done. All right, your last thing then. Well, I just remember speaking of other winter sports, I remember last year, the year before, we took the seminary in skating. Yeah. And that was horrible. I hated it. Here's why it was especially horrible. It was like post-COVID. Well, it wasn't post-COVID, it was sort of the end of COVID. So they didn't have anything to sharpen the skates. So we were not on sharp skates. Exactly. So to be on skates, I've never done that before. Basically skates that have never been sharp. They have no edge. Yeah. It was absolutely miserable. But I would like to go back, because we used to play hockey on the ponds when I was a kid, I would like to this winter engage in a little bit of that again with some proper skates and get back on the skates. That would be a lot of fun. Yeah, I would enjoy that. Yeah, that was fun. I'd like to do that again. There might even be like a... I know there are, there are rinks around here, because I know that at least one of our priest friends, he would do pick-a-pop hockey games. His hockey games, yep. You know, here, there. And so there's got to be your rink around. All right, get ready for your winter Olympics. Here we come. Oh, you know me. I love watching the winter sports. You too. All right. God bless you all. Have a wonderful week. Ciao, ciao, everyone. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time, From the Rooftop.