 HBC.org is privileged to join you for an exclusive conversation with former Kentucky State University President Dr. M. Christopher Brown, the second who is the first to join this program immediately following a departure is typical in HBC culture. You don't see brothers and sisters standing in front of the public to discuss something like this. So we give Dr. Brown an immense amount of credit for coming forward a friend of the show and that doesn't stop just because there's a change in his life. So, Brother President, we appreciate you coming on this evening. Good to be here, Brother Carter. It is a day later. Typically, with most things that you do and have done as a president, have done as a provost, have done as a dean, they get a lot of attention. Were you surprised at all at the attention not only of yesterday, but the attention leading up to yesterday? No, certainly for better or worse, my career has always enjoyed a stage effect. And so, all the good things that occur, all the questionable things that might occur, and even if it's a not so good thing that occurs, it tends to get media traction. What I've been most excited about is sort of the journalistic discipline that individuals have been engaging to approach this question because I think everyone who's viewing the situation realizes that there are, one, some oddities at play and two, some revelations that may be in the all thing. And so, it doesn't seem, you know, I've talked to family and friends and they'll say, they read this or that, and I'll go read it after them. And I said, well, you know, that's pretty fair statement. Let's talk about some of that because, you know, it is not unusual in higher education culture to see a departure or a split or retirement after an extension. And this is the case for you. You're not far removed from an extension for job well done. Here is increased enrollment. Here is some gains that we're making in fundraising. Here is how we're building an institution of capacity. In your view, why do you think that, what leads to what a difference a year makes? Well, from being enamored to being amicably split? Well, I think you have, you have stakeholder groups. You have constituencies and you have sectors. So that said, when a contract is running, when a contract is running, all of those groups are relatively state. I think the, well, I know for a fact, the contract renewal process and announcement, certainly those who just sit on the leadership approach or the institutional direction were agitated. Certainly there were those who were thinking, oh, this will be over in 12 to 18 months. And then they're like, oh, no, we're going to do 48 more. And then they're like, oh, no, we weren't prepared for that. That's not what we wanted. And so I think a contract renewals, particularly in the public space, can do a few things. One, it can certainly solidify the sense of consistency and stability, but it can also agitate individuals who may not be 100% supportive of institutional direction. Let's talk about that direction. I think that there's a feeling among laypersons that a president oversees an institution with autonomy and they don't realize the close workings between a president and a board. And I know that there are some areas we can get into and some areas we can't, especially because this is so recent. But can you clarify, not from the perspective of Kentucky State, but just in general, how closely do a president and a board work together when it comes to matters of big finance, big construction, academic development, programmatic development, accreditation review and response, it would seem like these are two groups, these are two sides that are in lockstep on these things. And yet with yesterday, it seems like there's a chasm between the president and the board. They don't, you know, one side is, and I don't know what you're talking about. Well, absolutely. First, I, as a professor, former professor of higher education, I've always said that a university president is the manifestation, the living manifestation of a board of trustees, regents, directs, whatever they're called, of a board's purpose to address the mission at a specific point in time in the institution's history. So the president is a living manifestation of the board's purpose to address the mission. So at some point, a board may be looking for an academic to grow the institution's ranking. At a different point, the board may be looking for a fundraiser to complete a capital campaign. Another point, the board may be looking for a construction or a builder, same board, same institution, but the president is sort of the manifestation of what the board is looking for at that particular point in time. With one mild exception, I had the privilege of roughly the same board for four years. So my board has been relatively constant for the last four years. There were a few minor tweaks, but overall, the core, particularly in specific, those who are gubernatorily appointed have been consistent. And the last month, so in the immediate aftermath of the extension, we have had four swearing ends on this board. So you're talking about a board of 11 people and a board of 11 people. And we now have four new statutory members. Even more, and I never forget, and I remind people all the time, I was hired on a six, three vote, right? So if you've got a six, three, and any vote that has not been unanimous since I've been here has been six, three. There were budget votes that were six, three. And this residence hall construction project was a six, three vote. So depending on who the six are and who the three are, and then you make a shift, it's almost like playing five cards stud, depends on what you throw out and then draw back in. You could be playing a very different hand in five seconds than you were playing five seconds before. So I think that's how quickly a board perspective can shift and board members approaches to questions can shift board members understandings of the history of things can shift. In the public landscape, I think this is critically important because across the 19 Southern and border states, HBCUs, public HBCUs in specific, have never enjoyed the same complement of board appointments that their peers have enjoyed. And in fact, I know firsthand here in the Commonwealth, we have wait lists of people trying to get on certain boards in the Commonwealth for certain institutions. And then there are some institutions that struggle to get a sufficient number of names to make even the minimal number of appointments. And so the quality and the capacity of the board members changes and shifts. And so to the extent possible, I think public HBCUs in the South, in these 19 Southern border states have to continue to work hard to encourage governors and legislators to appoint board members who are understanding of the institutional culture and history, understanding of the institutional cycles of operation, and willing to learn how these institutions have historically functioned, how they're functioning, and how they can be improved in the future. It's interesting because issues with turnover are I think are exacerbated at HBCUs or at least as they were reported in the media, but they happen everywhere. And even in Kentucky, you know, we're only a couple of years removed from the University of Louisville, having this board almost tossed out completely by the governor, the former governor. It was a full start, full restart. Do you think that that that's Kentucky, that politics are at play so much that boards are a reflection of political direction? And do you find yourself, you know, maybe a casualty of that? No, I wouldn't put that on the Commonwealth. I think the Commonwealth does the best that it can staffing college and university boards. I think the it's by application. I think the people who apply for the various institution boards differ in educational experience, work experience, net worth, political disposition. And I think the volatility really has to do with how institutions respond to their mission. I think there are likely three institutions are four, no, three and a half, that have the highest levels of volatility in the state. And that's because those are institutions that are mission conflicted from what they may have historically been founded to do with their current populations are with their service ambitions are. And one of the things I certainly learned in Mississippi, what the script is for that institution, you know, common states or Commonwealth have scripts for how they want institutions to be, what role they should play in a landscape. And if you get out of position, or if people perceive that the institution is getting out of position, then there may be repercussions or our responsiveness. Certainly post Mississippi, I learned there was a great raker about me increasing tuition rates at the same rate as the research ones. We were increasing because we had the capacity to increase. But that really was not the script. We were supposed to be on the lower end of the comprehensives. And so if no comprehensives were increasing tuition, then certainly the public HBCU and the state shouldn't be increasing tuition. You know, there was a checkered history on one of the slain civil rights activists of the state and for an institution to say, oh, we're going to not only celebrate this activist, but build a statue, maybe not just a statue, but the world's largest statue called heroic size may not have fit the script and the narrative for how that institution is supposed to be viewed in the state. Certainly the watershed moment, as I think back to recent board discussions and conversations about institution finance have all centered around whether or not the institution should or should not build a new residence hall. It's been the source of the split vote. It's been the source of the ranker. And in fact, it underlines and undergirds the current sets of inquiry and investigations into the finance. Not is the institution just solvent because everyone, I certainly want to commend the governor for his executive order. We talked about how vital this institution is to the Commonwealth and the intention to keep it going, but to keep it going under a management plan to keep it going under CPE. So in 2015, and I know you have your question, but let me just say this, in 2015, this general assembly, this Commonwealth entered legislation to close Kentucky State University. They said, you know, we're done with this. There was resistance on 2016 when the legislative budget was passed. House bill 303 HB 303 said, yeah, we're going to fund all the institutions and we will fund Kentucky State at the minimum, provided that they annually report on a management and improvement plan. First report was due in 2017. I submitted the first report. And every year, since I've been here, we've submitted a management improvement plan report with ascension, enrollment going up, retention going up, graduation rates going up, revenues going up, what they call fiscal ratios going up. This year, this would have been the last year of management plan reporting for KSU. We would have been open and free to operate like anyone else once we submitted this last management plan. Well, the new executive order says, well, let's hit the reset and let's design a new management and improvement plan for the institution. So that'll be another four years or five years of the training wheels and of oversight, which sort of controls how much movement one can have on the stage, how much exaggeration one can have in acting out the script that has been presented to them. Almost like clockwork. Yes, almost like clockwork. Let's, you know, we kind of talk about Kentucky as a player in this drama. Let's talk about you. And one thing I commend you for is you've committed to come here to talk frequently and hopefully about things going on. You referenced Mississippi, your time in Alcorn State. Here at Kentucky, this makes for the second institution where you depart and there's discussion. There's public discussion about money, public discussion about finances. What do you say to a public that says places where you go, even though these aren't the only two places you've been? Yes. But places where you go when you leave, they're talking about money. Yes. So if we do the HBCU sector, not to include my time at UNCF, which would be five, but institutionally, they're four. But it has to do, I think, with a CEO leadership, leadership approach, and style, and also personality. I want to say, I want to answer your question in a substantive way. But first, let me talk about my personality and how that impacts sort of the answer. So we talked a little bit about that stage effect. Right. So I have, as I say to my mother and my friends from time to time, I have an air-sucking ability. So I have an ability to consume a significant amount of air in a room, not intentionally. And so I try to be very careful now about not shining my light at full blasts, because it can be a lot. That said, different, my behaviors can be read. This is just not as true differently. Even I tease my friends, we could go around the table. There could be eight people. The first person could say, your mama, everyone laughs. Second person say, your mama, everyone laughs. It could go all the way around. Seven people say, your mama, everyone laughs. Just to me, the eighth person, I say, your mama. Now it's like, whoa, Brown, why did you say that? That's rude. So there's something that I have to own that, you know, emotional intelligence is important about my personality that can have my behavior read differently. You know, I've, for example, I've known people to come to a meeting with five staff people for a meeting, support meeting, and it's like, oh, she brought her staff, they're going to get worked up. I bring one person and it'll be, oh, there goes Brown with his entourage. So it just, so personality plays into it. Second piece, and I'm going to close in on your question on the third one. But the second piece is that in HBCU presidential politics, in HBCU presidential politics, there are only three character assertions that disrupt the core of the black community. Those three character assertions is, and this also applies to the black church, that the pastor or the president has done something with the money, that the pastor or the president has done something that supports his family. So something like nepotism. His wife is over christened. His son is over the choir, you know, any one of those. So you have money, you have nepotism. And the third is that the president of the past has done something sexually or more. So if you look at the HBCU presidential bubble, when there's a character assault, this is not substantive. This is not ability to manage accreditation, ability to grow enrollment. This is not performance. Any non-performance assault, any non-performance assertion is going to fall into one of those three boxes. Right. So let's do deduction backwards to get to your question. One, I happen to also be a pastor. So sadly, I'm not predisposed to sexual immorality. So you've not heard that coming from me. Right. Second, I don't have, I'm an only child with no biological children. So you don't get the nepotism character assertion on me. So the only character assertion that can really be leveled with any consistency or integrity would be finance. Because, and one of the reasons I responded to your email to come on was in fact because of the all-corn departure. So when I left all-corn, I said, oh, I'm a student of higher ed. I love the institution. I love the sector. Let me not say anything. As my grandmama said, truth needs no defense. You know, everything's going to work out. All will be well. I haven't done anything. Life will be good. Well, it doesn't quite work that way. The silence gets read as he tucked his head and ran. He did something, something was going on. So because I did not respond a decade ago to the all-corn departure to lay bare the facts. You know, there are people who know who I've talked to, but I didn't in a public way react, respond or rebut, particularly the Jeff Amy article. That sort of stuff. Right. So it becomes a, so I become the walking wounded. And so during any critical attack or assault, even from my arrival, before I even got to the campus, the news said, oh, he's a great person. People say he gets results. People say he's really positive, but you know, there's this assertion that the money's off. Right. And so so that persists. So throughout my tenure, anytime anything comes up, that wound is solved. So it's just like a boxer knowing the dominant or weak side of their opponent. The parties that be knew that this was a weak area. They can't say academics are enough. They can't say ratings are enough. They can't say enrollment enough. There's nothing. The only area that's not fully defended is this area of fiscal oversight. So it's interesting. This is not about a malfeasance. This is not about litigation. This is not about missing money. It's about a cash flow question, which is a real, this is, let me say to be honest and fair, that's a very real question. There's a cash flow question. And you have a new board, a new moment. And this is the question. So let me pause and then let me come back to you. So if you ask any institution, cash flow is lean between May, June, July, and August. I don't care how it lean at Harvard may be very different than lean at a small private but whatever your general cash flow is for nine months, it's not the same for those three summer months. You're not cash and tuition checks in the summer. You're not getting tuition check. Even if you run in summer school, it's not the same. So if you're looking at your financial cycle, you already know your summer months are going to be lean. So we experience some transition and personnel that happens during the time of transition and personnel. There were AP accounts payable that were not properly paid or discharged. So those got left over. The fiscal year ends June 30. So now you come into July one, which is the first of your lowest cash flow months, July and August. You've got your July expenses, plus you have these expenses left from June on the last month of the quarter. And then in an unexpected turn, we had two large bills, one related to a line of credit. And the second related to capital construction, it was a bundle of capital construction, a part of which dates back, I want to put this number out, to 2009. 2009. I was still a dean at UNLV in 2009, notwithstanding the bill comes to, so you get these bills that come due. You have two options. You can pay them or not pay them. If you pay them, then you default. If you don't, I mean, if you don't pay them, you default. If you pay them, you diminish the cash flow. So if you look at the snapshot for the month of July and the incoming month of August, does the institution have a cash flow problem? Yes, absolutely. When enrollment for the fall starts in August, you start your Title IV G5 drawdown. September begins to abate those concerns. But at this moment, the answer is yes. So to your question, I think sort of how do you balance this dual narrative is that the second narrative is only possible because of the first narrative. So a person can be acquitted of a crime, but it never changes the fact that they were charged. So once you've been charged, the charging will forever be a part of the narrative. That's exactly what my next question was going to be, because with those narratives, and I've always tried to report accurately, at all core, there are no criminal charges. There's no state audit. There's no accreditation review for financial control. It would appear the same as in place at Kentucky State. There is no accreditation review. There is no announce of an audit. There's a reboot of the financial oversight agreement, but there's no audit, which is common if a state feels like one of its agencies, not just higher education, but one of its agencies is in financial trouble. And so here again, you now shoulder two stories of this, but no charges and no implication and no trouble. So what is that? Honestly, what does that do for your career? You know, that's for the industry to decide. One, my mind is sharper than ever. My administrative skill is sharper than ever. My trust level is probably now lower than ever because you know, one of the things, and in times of crisis, you remember childhood narratives, you know, my mother would always say, Chris, everyone doesn't love you, you know, and have an issue with school or something. And it just didn't make any sense to me why would someone not love me. I didn't, you know, I'm a good person. I'm not doing anything wrong. But she said that's just the way life is. And so I think our institutions are, and I don't want to give a word of compliment and commendation in a moment. I think our institutions are uniquely positioned. I think there are two subsets of our sector worthy of commendation. One, UNCF. I think that this era and administration of UNCF has worked hard on president-board relations, board strength training and communication, so that those boards know how to assist and manage these institutions, how to work in collaboration with their presidents, and how to even seamlessly transition institutions through purposes. So there are times, there are reasons to change president, and certainly that's the right of the board. But I think UNCF has now begun building a set of institutional cultures that manage that very well. If you recall a decade or so ago, 15 years ago, they were probably bad actors. The other set are institutions, which we complain about, states that we may complain about, but who have strong state systems, where there are state systems of which the HBCUs, public HBCUs may be a part. And so there are strong statewide mechanisms for policy, procedure and practice. North Carolina, Georgia, and so those institutions, not talking about institutional performance, not talking about institutional governance and administration, run relatively well because they are not subject to sort of the political mechanizations that you might see in South Carolina or Kentucky or West Virginia or Missouri. And so North Carolina has its machinations, but they know what they're looking for. And institutional leadership and whether you like it or not is a different question. The Board of Governors is going to add what it wants. And so it doesn't matter what the alumni say, it doesn't matter what the students say. We have a master script, and this role calls for a red head with one arm who can tap dance. And you're like, no, we want to brune it, no. So I think that's the challenge that we have for those places that don't have that. How can the sector, how can the HBCU community sustain what are very important institutions that are not in the UNCF discipline at this point, that are not in a highly rigid state system? Let me say, if you and the Georgia system, it is highly unlikely you're going to get an HBCU presidency coming from outside of Georgia. Now, the other ones, those are different, but you're not going to get one of those coming from outside of Georgia. Sometimes it's just the North. And North Carolina is going to be, can you read the script? If the tone and tenor that we have decided, it doesn't matter what your educational background, what your work experience is, we need someone to do these five things every day, are you willing to avow to do that? And if you will, then that works in that space. Other states don't have that same level of homogeneity at this point. As we're sitting here talking, I'm looking at some of the coverage, I guess over the last 24 hours, there is a peculiar emphasis on lawsuits and how they factor into your separation from the school. And that's weird to me. I like for you to comment on that because seemingly every organization goes with lawsuits. So I wonder if you feel that there is a unique take, given that this is a talking point in why there's a separation between president and institution? Let me speak, I guess I'm non-employee, so I guess I can't speak on this. I was about to give our official line that the university is talking about on this occasion. But let me say this, no large agency, organization, entity, company, very few large agencies, organizations, corporations, or companies are going to be able to avert litigation, whether it's a big box store where someone falls in the parking lot or slips on the aisle, whether it's a large company where their personnel policies are not clearly articulated. So I will say this, all of the litigation that that was reported on is dated, they're all from 2017, 2018, which was the time and there's a campus address, a campus communique that I wrote called Turning Over Rocks where there was lots of personnel change. And one thing I will say about my former institution, KSU, is that it is highly litigious, highly litigious. Everyone feels the right to, you know, the pencil sharpener was broke on the second floor, I had to go to the third floor, there's gonna be litigation. That's the nature of the way tort law is in the Commonwealth and the way the legal profession works. It's almost like tickets in Las Vegas, police write tickets all day, every day in Las Vegas is where I'm from, and they all require a court appearance. You can be going five miles over the speed limit, you can be drunk or you have a court appearance. And there's a whole cottage industry of lawyers based on ticket writing. You, oh my gosh, I don't know what would happen if you didn't hire a lawyer. You have to hire a lawyer if you get a ticket. They have a flat rate, they're going to get it dismissed. But if you go to court yourself without a lawyer, I don't think that's gonna work very well. That's just not the way the industry works. So in the Commonwealth, everyone soothes for everything. Certainly when I arrived in 2017, I think we had 21 pieces of active litigation against the institution. Those numbers are down drastically. We're down to just a few or they're down to just a few. What's interesting thing is all of the cases that are being talked about are interrelated. I believe some of them even share legal counsel. And so in Kentucky, people will do what they need to do to win a case. When we swear in state officials, board members, governors, there's a whole two paragraph passage on whether or not you've accepted a duel with deadly weapons or made a duel or been a second to a duel or carried a message challenging a duel because this is a state known for fighting. And this is a state where people sue over anything and people have that right. And I respect their exercising that right. And certainly the university has a right to defend itself against litigation. So I will say, fortunately, the institution hasn't lost any litigation of which I'm aware, certainly since I've been here. And on occasion, sometimes institutions settle because of nuisance litigation, just the cost of fighting it, sometimes is greater than the cost of dismissing it. This is twice. And I know it's premature because it's just yesterday. But as you sit and reflect on your time in Kentucky, do you feel, given all the assessment of the culture and the politics and the finance and the management issues that you would want to do this again? Well, are you going to ask me? Are you going to ask my family? That's my wife, my mom, my friends? I think there may be a split opinion. I will say this, and I'm very clear, and I'm unequivocal. I do believe in God. I believe that he is the great architect of the universe. I believe he is the divine order of human existence. And that I do believe that for those who are believers, that their steps are ordered, even the good and the bad. David says that, yea, though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, so that means that even David's path requires some valleys and some shadows of disappointment and some ominous moments. But he says, but the Lord is with me. And so I do believe that. And I am 100% convinced that God has callings on my life. And the old hymn says a charge to keep I have. And so I'm committed to making HBC use better. I'm committed to, oh my gosh, seeing students flourish. One of the happiest and saddest days for me each year is graduation. I put a lot of effort into graduation, given the students the celebration they deserve, because I see it. I am the one who has sat there to see a grandmother. I can think of a penning ceremony right now where everyone said that this person was the son of Mr. and Mrs. That, or that person was the daughter of Mrs. That. And I never forget that one girl who came woman now came across the stage and said that she was the granddaughter of so and so. And that grandmother, I'm about to lose it now. That grandmother came on the stage in a house dress and a house shoes to pin her granddaughter as a as a lieutenant in the US Army. And I'm realizing that what this HBCU, what this institution has done has forever transformed the trajectory of that family. You know, when when I see students coming across the stage, who I know their story, I know what it took for them to get there. That's what makes this work worthwhile. Do I enjoy it? The politics and machinations absolutely not. Do I like treachery, deceit and lack of full transparency in media communications? Absolutely not. But the pain of the sacrifice of, you know, I remember when I had here, then I remember when I had great air. Now I have no beer. I would not be here, but for South Carolina State University at that time, State College. That institution took a first generation African American male from a single parent home and a high free and reduced meal community and transformed him into ultimately a PhD candidate from the number one higher education program in the nation and a relatively stable and sane college and university and academic administrator. So I owe a debt to that institution and to the cohort of institutions that service our students. And anything I can ever do for any one of them to make them better, to make life better for the students that they serve, then that's a part of my mission. And I want to hear my creator say, well done, my good and faithful servant, even if there are haters and detractors on the path. You know, one of the things my grandmother said, and this is, I'm getting better, but this is why I didn't speak up. My grandmother said, blessed are you, when all men speak manners of evil against you falsely. He said, great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted day, the prophets before you. And my grandma says nothing wrong for people to hate on you or say bad things about you. She just said, let it be false. Let's talk about the sector to round us out, man, because yours is the second separation in a week or in a week's time. You mentioned Yama Mata, their president was removed. Interestingly enough in the summertime when things are a little lean. And there have been, I reported last week, several land grant presidents who have departed, who have retired, who have been fired in the last year, or since May of 20, you've had about seven, that's almost half of the land grant sub sector. And so, when we think about these departures, when we think about what turnover means to an institution, how that impacts personnel, how it impacts strategic vision, strategic planning, how it impacts athletics, how it impacts recruitment, donor engagement, legislative lobbying. A lot of things change with one person. Accreditation is one of those. What do you think the sector is about to embark upon when we are a couple months from full return to class and in-person activities? COVID is still very much with us. Money that made us seem replete with resources just a few months ago is going to be running out, because there is going to be no cares at funding round two, around three. And we are on the precipice of a lot of presidential turnover. What do you see for the sector having now set in a seat where it's like, okay, now I'm about to see, and I can look at this whole thing now, and instead of just focusing on one school, what is it that you see? I think we are, again, subsectors. I think there are the campuses that are being really UNCF compliant in terms of the new disciplines that they've put in, the capacity building. I think you've got your state system, strong campuses, and then I think you have everyone else, which are your small thousand students or less privates and your scattered publics across the states. I think the landscape, both in terms of persons occupying institutional leadership, the student cultural experience, and I think that's critically important, and the public narrative, post-Kamala Harris, Raphael Warnock, will be significantly different, 16 to 18 months from now. On this first piece, there will be transition, some natural retirement. I think some people will also fatigue out, so for example, I worked every day from COVID until today. Today is my first day all, because COVID didn't mean I got to telecommute, I got to work from home, or that I was taking classes online. It was still institutional operations and crisis management at the same time, so I think there's going to be a significant person change in the space, not all bad, but I think the challenges of the job are definitely shifting. The nature of the job is going to shift. In that middle space, the culture, HBCUs are known not for their human composition, but for their cultural climate. It is the cultural climate that makes up the unique space that makes us cultural repositories of the history of racial segregation in the nation and all the possibilities that come out of it. So for the 300, 500,000 Black collegians who were out of these institutional spaces for the last 16 months or so, either in full or in part, and now with the election, we'll get to it in a moment, people are looking, they want their home coming back, they want their probate back, they want their step show back, but all of that is returning at the time when we no longer have all of the CARES funds for the PPE purchasing, which is your hand sanitizer, face masks are back in style. Now you're going to have to have just as much testing, rapid tests ideally rather than antigen tests, and the White House gave free tests out years ago or a year ago, but I don't know that that's in the often. So now that means you're going to have to buy a subscription to service for testing. And I'm not sure one of the good or bad about our community is that we've not faced a public death from COVID. Right? So there's been no major Black celebrity die from COVID. And so as a result, our students and our cousins, our nieces and nephews feel immune to it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I got to watch out for COVID, but they don't want to take the vaccine. These are smart people. They don't want to wear masks because for 12 months they were told they were too young to get it, they were too strong to get it. And you're going to have all of these people having kickbacks and everything else. And I think it's going to be a challenge. The last piece is the phrase HBCU is now a part of the public discourse. It was a part of different community discourses, but not the public discourse. Yeah. And because it's now in the public discourse, people around talking about critical race theory, which I have no interest in talking about, but there's an underlying theory called interest convergence. And interest convergence says that whenever the dominant group, you put race, gender, whatever you want on it, supports the interests of a subordinate group, they have a vested interest at stake as well. And because HBCU is now in the public discourse, you're going to hear state legislatures, politicians, commentaries who still don't really understand the history, the concept, or the construct, using it and saying, how can we use these institutions to advance our interests and our aims? And so you're going to see HBCUs at play, partnering, stakeholder, networking, consortium in ways that they have not done before, but I'm not sure that the outcomes are going to be any greater than when they were working alone by themselves. Any room for optimism? As you say, you're optimistic about your future. You're optimistic about your faith. Any optimism for the sector at large, given all that's at stake? One of the great things, as I said to an alum who called yesterday to express their sentiments on my departure, I said, institutions have been here for 135 years. It's strong, rich, and resilient. It'll be here for 135 more. I believe some of our institutions, we saw the major hires at Howard. We see growth spurts, even some of our smaller privates, some of our institutions to borrow some hip hop language are living their best lives. And their management is being responsive to it. And even though there was some critique, I heard, I don't listen to that just after dark. I asked my band time, and I heard it's unscripted. So I don't want no one to talk about after dark. But that said, I know there's been some critique about changes that campuses are making to their board structure. But I appreciate that some boards and campuses are trying to ask themselves, how do we look? How should we look in the future to make sure our campus is in the best position to be successful going forward? And I think to the extent that boards can clearly articulate what purpose they want the president to fulfill, based on the mission of the institution, that alumni can grow themselves as significant recruiters and fundraisers for their alma mater. And the faculty can remember, should never forget that our purpose is to make our students better than we were. That the future of our industry and our sector will remain bright. In those small pockets in states and commonwealths, where boards and government officials may have forgotten that, there'll be some rocky roads ahead. And then the final thing, and we appreciate you again, brother, for taking this head on one, especially so recent. If you haven't had the opportunity to do so, what is the thing that you would say to your alumni students, faculty at KSU? Oh, one that we are thorough. It's a thorough campus and thorough branch together. It's been absolutely wonderful. We've had four years of a set and progress going up. We've moved onward, upward, and forward. And my love for the green and old goal will remain strong. And I've just been honored and humbled to have had the opportunity to serve on the campus where Rufus Ballad Atwood served as president. And we're so many great legends. Monita Sleet, Whitney Young, even modern legends like Pat Russell McLeod have come out of these campuses. Elmore Smith, great basketball, great. Anytime, Barbara Hatten, who was president of South Carolina State when I was a grad student at UK, University of Kentucky. And this is really old. This is 1993. Back then we had camp quarters, Beta and VHS. I've borrowed a VHS camp quarter from the University of Kentucky for my leadership class and drove to Orangeburg, South Carolina to interview Barbara Rose Hatten, the first woman president of my alma mater. And she said that there was not a day, and I found the words to be true. She said there was not a day that she didn't wake up in awe and humbled by the opportunity that she had to lead that great institution. And there's not been a day that I have not woken up or been awakened in awe and humility by the opportunity to serve and to be the 18th president. I knew that there were 17 people before me. And I reminded people all the time that there would be a 19 that would come after me. And that this was my time to steward the ship. And I hope and pray that people will always remember that I left Kentucky State University better than I found.