 So welcome on back from the best snacks. We've ever had at a seminar in MSE Anytime there's cured meat and olives involved for those of you watching online Sorry, you missed it go somewhere have a fine cheese But it's now my opportunity to start off our panel discussion so we heard about a specific aspect of 3d manufacturing and advanced materials materials discovery and so we have a panel of folks from across campus and across the country To discuss that with you and I do notice that all the students are sitting back further So we will have to pass the micron what I'd like to do is turn it over to Professor Mike Titus to introduce the rest of the panel and lay out kind of the ground rules of how we'll have this discussion All right. Thank you Dave. So Welcome everyone today the panel discussion topic will be how do new materials change the things around you? So our panelists today are professor Teresa Pollock whom you've already met from her great lecture today So the associate dean and our co-distinguished professor of material that you see Santa Barbara Also my former PhD advisor, so never thought nine years from when I started we'd be sitting here, but here we are Next down the line is a doctor Mark Gunninger. He is the managing director for industrial consortia here at Purdue University Formerly president Praxair surface technologies. Thank you, Mark Moving on down the line is dr. Rob Carter. He's an advisor at the Barnes group advisors Formerly director for advanced materials and process engineering at striker orthopedics and before that The branch chief for materials manufacturing technology at the army research lab. Thank you And last but not least is professor John Sutherland. He is the Phezenfeld family head of environmental and ecological engineering At Purdue. Thank you. So the way that we're gonna schedule this today is the first 30 minutes We'll kind of have some discussions up here between I guess the five four of us And then we'll transfer it over to you all. So the last 30 minutes will will take questions from you So please come up with some questions to ask our four panelists today so first thing I'd like to kind of discuss is how new materials and processes have impacted your particular technology areas and so in In discussing this if we could kind of go down the line and briefly introduce yourselves And kind of relate to how new materials have have impacted your technology areas So I can start so my background is manufacturing and I'm actually Trained as a mechanical and industrial engineer, but about 30 years ago. I realized that Many of the environmental challenges that we presently deal with were actually created by mechanical and industrial and materials and electrical engineers, so I've spent the last 30 years trying to Help people make better Manufacturing related decisions not only in terms of productivity in terms of cost and but also in terms of the environment The Barnes group but prior to that I had pretty much the same job in two different sectors I worked with the Department of Defense Where we kind of lived at the intersection between materials and manufacturing so we would take new Material breakthroughs that were coming out of the laboratories and we looked into how did you actually scale those? How did you get them into manufacturing and one of the areas that we were looking into whether it was for? new gun barrels or erosion resistant coatings or new armor materials Usually you would come out a lab and you'd make something about the size of a sugar cube or maybe a little bit bigger Now you had to scale that into something that would go into an entire vehicle So we would actually start doing the research to look into how do you address the manufacturing requirements? How do you make sure the material processing is maintained from kind of a lab scale all the way up to producing a larger scale part? So we did a lot of research with that and I can I can talk probably offline for a long long time In that area, but also in the medical device space. We were doing the same type things where how do you take new breakthrough materials and get those? matured For the medical device space It's a little bit more challenging because you actually have a regulatory body that actually really imposes a significant amount of requirements on top Of you. So just dropping a new material is not something you can do you have to go back and do a lot of research to prove it out So it basically where does new materials do for me? They gave me a job. So it's been really a lot of fun Hi, I'm Mark Gruninger as Mike was kind enough to mention While I've had the pleasure of being here at Purdue for since the beginning of this year I spent most of my career in a variety of roles on technical and then commercial with a company called Prax Air Surface Technologies For those of you who may be somewhat aware of that company. It's a fairly large materials and coatings provider and do a lot of advanced materials work in particular for aerospace applications and In my role both aerospace and a lot of electronics applications and so for me What new materials? Taught me and being involved with those over many many years working for Prax Air Was similar to what you've heard John and Rob talk about the the application innovation of Materials is always exciting when you can find something that works That's that's a terrific kind of accomplishment where someone's saying yeah, that works and we want to buy that from you And then I can tell you when another type of excitement comes when you want to make more than one or two You want to make Thousands and thousands of gallons or parts or coatings and then you have to kind of understand The science behind what's going on and how that applies in making it from one more than one to two And having had the opportunity to do that for a variety of electronic applications and aircraft engine applications and other applications really made for an exciting career you can't make it without materials and and Producers know that and suppliers know that and I had a wonderful time doing that in a variety of applications for Prax Air Okay, I guess the only thing can you hear me? Yeah, the only thing you can I would add to my background I'm obviously an academic so suspect But I did once or twice have have real jobs one being at GE Aviation and my Job there was alloy development. And so I did actually develop an alloy that eventually flew and I think It was long after I left though So what I gained from that experience was sort of a profound appreciation for the difference between Finding something interesting in the lab and actually getting it into a Product and and that's something that I've tried to help pass on to students the understanding that if you're just standing in the lab Finding an interesting material that doesn't mean you're developing a material just means you're understanding material and There is an important distinction and there's obviously an important role for both Yeah, so launching off of that can some of you give some examples of how a new material has really You know changed reinvigorated an industry or even started up a new one Can you kind of walk us through the process it takes to design develop and? Eventually deploy that new material into a system component so I'll just comment that one of the things that I'm excited about in terms of Additive and Teresa talked a little bit about that today. I think What is is it's opportunity to contribute to remanufacturing which is Taking a used product and and bringing it back to new or even better than new Specifications, and I think that's really very exciting because you know, I spend a big part of my life Thinking about how can we close some of these material loops component loops so that our That we're not discarding the these Products that we've invested Our our energy our water our sweat to create in the first place So I think it's tremendous opportunity new materials, whatever we can If they can prolong the life of Components and avoid premature replacement. That's fantastic and remanufacturing via additive is is great We had a number of material systems that we were bringing up New alloys that we were trying to introduce and I guess I'm sure you had the same experience which is It's amazing how hard it is to actually get a new material all the way through all the different test processes to Demonstrate the manufacturability of it To truly appreciate what it means to go into manufacturing and you really have to understand, you know statistical processes of your manufacturing process you have to Understand whatever regulatory body that has kind of say over how your new material is is Controlled or released It really is very very far removed from kind of the R&D world and one of the things I would recommend is if you ever get the opportunity to do a Tour of a production facility or or see and get a chance to talk to people like that That's a really kind of eye-opening Experience to try to really understand what it takes to get a material from R&D all the way into a production phase It's incredibly complicated You know, I'm assuming most of the students in here, you know researchers looking into different directions in their career it really is amazing to And from I'm a PhD in material science. I love research You get into kind of the application of the the manufacturing portion of it and all the the manufacturing engineering I find that incredibly boring. I'm sorry. It's hard to do But it that's how you got to generate all the statistics, but but that's what you got to do So it's hard to do but you got to appreciate it I Agree with John about his comments about additive However In an attempt to answer your question Mike the first real experience I had with commercializing a new product came about maybe when a lot of the students here were Just being born about 20 years ago. There was a product called Windows 95 Everyone anyone here about that product and Windows 95 was one of its Operational problems was the fact that it was a memory hog I know Teresa talked about terabytes back then megabytes was a big problem and The way to get megabytes on your disk drive was making the disk as flat as possible So as a PhD ceramic engineer We had to develop some what are called polishing compounds to make those disks as flat as possible And the way we would make them in the lab scale was making things that were a gallon a Five-gallon pail and I can remember the first time we got an order for 50,000 gallons of that So it was a big chemical engineering challenge a big materials processing challenge But it was a challenge that helped move Windows 95 forward because we had to make so many more disks back then Disks would have three disks per drive now today use a lot different type of memory, but I Can remember the very exciting times thinking about how do I do something that I did in a in a pail and would polish a hundred disks with To Seagate technology is just placed in order of 50,000 gallons of this stuff that they want actually delivered In a certain amount of time and how are we going to do that? Lots of challenges They're combining the academic technology and the real life manufacturing to make sure all that stuff Comes out the way the customer who's paying for that once I guess I would reflect back to my my original experience of Going to GE and you know fresh out of graduate school and and they're like ha PhD from MIT will show her and And they're like develop a new alloy So you know I go to the lab and do some things and everything had to be designed of experiments Which was totally frustrating but understandable And and you know something eventually good comes out and I'm like thinking I'm finished and they're like go make blades And so you go off to Whitehall, Michigan We're the only place where they make them and it's a disaster And then they declare it not possible and then you have to like Show them all the fundamental reasons why it can work and then you have to make lots of them And and and so it was there's a tremendous learning experience But but the whole business of you know going from something was just a demonstrably good idea to Production is is take so many different disciplines, you know, not just materials it takes everything and so Being able to to be interested in all the different facets of that is is Important for success. I think you have to keep your eyes open to to all the other Disciplines that are important to engineering to get something done So I think you all in some way have kind of touched upon the Valley of Death where you have this great new Awesome alloy and then all of a sudden, you know, a bunch of them don't work and You slog through it and finally you get an alloy that works at the end going through your manufacturing processes are there things that we can do at the university level or I Things that students should should be looking for in order to kind of for their careers and for us as engineers Reduce that time period in in the Valley of Death, so to speak or eliminate it entirely Do we need to do more upfront thinking about the manufacturability of new materials? Well as someone that was trained in manufacturing. I guess my answer would be yes, right? So and I and I am Recently working with many scientists that I would say probably Well the the expertise that I'm providing to them is on economic guidance and and you know trying to move their Technologies which often exists at a trl one or two level to something that You know is three or four and that that often times requires Expertise that they just don't have so these things that three talked about like designed experiments and simple simple things like engineering economy and and some of the you know development of business plans and so forth and I know Purdue has has got a lot of Guidance and support that we can we can give to students in these areas, so yeah, I think that this is a great great opportunity Totally agree with you Yeah, I would say actually get to know your customer or you know all the pathway to your customer Because it is a tremendous number of different backgrounds that need to come together to get a part into production make profit Working in the medical device space one of the things I thought was amazing is you know You'd be in a meeting you'd be talking about some new concept for a component and Honestly, one of the most powerful people in the room was the marketing guy Because the marketing guy could sit there and go that will never sell and the conversation is over You're just done at that point you can sit there and say scientifically great idea Is it's gonna make you know life so much better never sell done So you do need to appreciate there there are a lot of other Influences into a what may be a great technical idea may be a terrible business idea and understanding that It's a much bigger problem than just the technical problem you want to solve So having had the opportunity to sit with a number of marketing guys They're like everyone else sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong So if you think you're right stick with stick to your guns As far as what the university can do You know Having had the pleasure of being affiliated as a volunteer with the school materials engineering for a few years and seeing the curriculum I I think the curriculum is very robust and offers students a chance to kind of get some of this Real-life experience if you will especially in the second two years But remembering that education is a two-way street, right? You know, it's it's not just what the curriculum is. It's what the students make of the curriculum if you can come to a lecture like this if you can probe your teachers about what Experiences they've had in you know in Industrial settings that's going to benefit the students as much as Anything that's in the course curriculum because the curriculum that I've seen here at Purdue and other places is excellent If you're a junior or senior, you know engineer trying to be thinking about doing something industrial Ask your professors about what their experiences are and probe deeper that way That'll be very meaningful within the context of the other courses that they have So I guess I'll take a really long view to this question and and maybe it's on my mind because just yesterday and Santa Barbara it was announced that some real quantum computing happened and and I think the way to speed anything up is is to have a good Hopefully physics-based model of what it is you want to do and so if you imagine what the Computational power is by the time you all are trying to do some of these things I think it I think the answer is in sort of developing integrating and Using the power of both models and data to try things out before you Spend two years in the lab and and you know on very small ways We're already able to do that and what we find is that it leads us in a completely different path than than what perhaps we were Demand that was demanded of us in that design of experiments approach Which is well try this try that and try that the machine learning says go over here. And so I I think If there if there's suites of tools that walk you through Manufacturing processes you can probably avoid a lot of the mistakes that that are made along the way So I I think becoming as students Becoming computationally savvy. I'm an experimentalist by the way is Or at least having command of what's available and and some level of ability to use those tools is Going to help things look different in the future And so assuming we have this brand new material and it works in a process or we're developing another process And we we get to the finish line and now it's marketable and we're selling it How much of the circular economy comes into the I guess early design and development process and Particularly related to additive What are we doing now that is maybe a pitfall down the road that we're not maybe considering up front in Terms of the circular economy economy So I think David asked me to be on the panel because of this particular question. So So There's a few things that I've learned over the years one of them is that we need to think about the life cycle and in fact multiple life cycles of Components products and what we're going to do with materials at some point when the product is no longer functional And and this is so because of the unless there's a breakthrough in terms of energy and water We have to continue to to find new sources In new ways to create energy and the water is kind of real difficult unless we Get untapped amounts of energy and we can desalinate it will So so these become an issue and of course we don't want to be buried in our waste. So we've got to work out some of these Circular economy type issues and in order to do that we've got to Got to have the good as Teresa said good understanding of the physics and the chemistry and and Do things that make sense in terms of the environment in the economics And so that means recycling remanufacturing reused extending product life and Making wise decisions up front during design In the DoD we were looking at two different areas one is repair parts using additive manufacturing We were developing cold spray additive processes to go ahead and be able to Repair a lot of our parts turns out that say in a helicopter you have a lot of magnesium Housings that are incredibly prone to corrosion and wear. They're very soft So what ends up happening is you will have wear on a Flange or an emitting interface and just a little bit of wear but we'll get it to where it no longer seals properly it goes outside of spec Pull this fairly expensive casting out and it can't be used So we were showing that we could with a very small amount of repair you could get this Manufactured or remanufactured back into spec and put back into service and that was that was a really fascinating and Eye-opening the you know billions of dollars are spent each year undoing the damage that corrosion does to the DoD So this was a really rewarding program to go into Leaning forward a little bit. One of the things we were looking into is for logistics When we deploy our forces anywhere wherever they go, you've got to send material You know spares other things. So there's a long trail of Trucks right behind you with all the parts you need So we were looking into how do you Take an additive manufacturing. Could I deploy a printer? Upfront so that soldier can then print whatever part they need now. You only have to send Raw material well turns out the logistics footprint of packing a printer and powders and all these other things Is even worse than packing a bunch of parts So we had to go back and rethink it and one of the areas where it really made a lot of sense is if I could start Recycling my waste stream Which would be you know the water bottles, you know, there's a joke that you can follow an army and see where they've been Because you can follow the trail of batteries and water bottles all over the country side Um, so if we could go ahead and recycle any of those materials and make them into printable feedstocks now we would actually be reducing our logistics footprint and giving better capability to somebody that's in a you know pretty far away from a logistics Force to get them what they need. So a lot of interesting research. There is a tremendous amount of opportunity in that space For the circular economy, I like the sustainability circular part that you all were discussing You know as the businessman I was for as long as I was I kind of focus on the economy side and um, I think Teresa's title about the crossroads of additive manufacturing Some of the companies I've advised on additive manufacturing. They like to call it the wild west Because right now basically a lot of things are going on on materials technology equipment technology And of course most importantly from my perspective application technology what applications are actually going to Be runners in in the circular economy of additive and I think Teresa's talk hit the two nails on the head It's going to be at least at the beginning aerospace Um and medical high value is also she mentioned and I think that's accurate as well If you're in defense, there's a lot of money. So there's that's uh Possible as well, but to me I think where the investment dollars are going right now If you kind of look at it is spots where you have a real chance to commercialize applications And so to me the economic answer to that is you'll see applications evolve Very rapidly it's three billion dollars now the part industry in aerospace is a hundred times that so You're talking about a one percent penetration for it to become a 15 or 20 percent penetration in 10 or 15 years In an industry with a very long cycle time You know, it's going to have to be some pretty economically viable applications and technologies associated with it So I guess more generally with regard to the circular economy not so much an attitude but this came to mind based on your comments and A meeting that I was at that was the hundredth anniversary of the royal swedish academy And and there were some talks on sustainability and I was I was shocked from the point of view that how carefully they've thought about collecting electronics and what to do about the waste and and And the the detailed thinking about that that I think I don't see in the u.s To the same degree and yet if you look at the power and water situation and the not too distant future Surely, you know, somebody has to do something about this. So I think from the point of view of the u.s And people hurry young that there have to be tremendous opportunities there. So just sort of from the perspective of How would I do some of these things if I can imagine power and water are limited or How do how do some of these things relate to the fact that all of that powder that power will be coming from a grid that's got a huge fraction of renewables and And you know, how how can I do things locally? in a way that isn't really Traditional big Manufacturing and so with this company. I showed appeal technologies This is a group of students that took plant waste Ground up seeds in the garage and figured out how to turn them into a coating that That protects plants. So they took something. They're taking the waste And making a valuable coating and and the next thing they know the 90 people with contracts with cosco and Walmart and all of those sorts of places. So it's sort of a It's a it was a mindset that sort of You know, we should do things differently that got them started and so I think doing things differently Sort of on a larger scale, you know, manufacturing lies aerospace medical. I don't know will it happen Only if you make it happen, I guess Let me just add one other thing two applications One related to medical one related aerospace, of course the the big driver in the aerospace for the additive is Is this tremendous opportunity to reduce the mass? and that's because This is so important because the use stage of that aerospace product life cycle just dominates everything else So you save a little bit of mass then there's tremendous Fuel savings, which the customers love as as well as there being a substantial environmental benefit And the other application the medical many years ago. I was visiting a company that made Implants for spinal surgery and they would prepare about 50 possible combinations of Of the components and then air ship this This big box to a hospital to a doctor that was that would be doing the surgery And then the doctor would pull out the the one little implant that was needed And of course the rest everything else is contaminated at that point. So then they've got to Ship it all back to the manufacturer And and this is all air shipped right so fat acts or something they're flying it around the country and i'm Sterilizing everything i'm thinking man. This is terrible. So these days You know put put the additive manufacturing at the hospital get the size the exact size you need not the closest one and You know save tremendous amount of energy and all this waste All right, great. Well, um, i'm going to keep my promise and now open the floor up for questions for those of you who have it They were supposed to do homework So I have a question with a a bit of a personal stake in it When you guys see the future for super alloy applications Do you see it being a materials a design or a manufacturing challenge predominantly? Start off with that. Um, one of the things I'd actually say is uh, I would actually I'd actually Personal All of those are interrelated proper properties Um, and I guess to understand that if you change the material you would design Design will change your your manufacturing process will change. So understand the problem I would say a little bit bigger than just you know, hey, where is that one material going to go? Um, understand that as you get into this they all all become very interrelated very complicated And as I said understand that bigger picture and how it fits together in the application of choice So I We have researchers that work on each each one of those things right and like I said, they're all interrelated I think the answer is yes as well. You know at praxe air. We were a very very large manufacturer of a variety of super alloys and As teresa can acknowledge as a former ge employee the life cycle of those metals are just so long in any aerospace industry It's it's hard to imagine even in your career that those will be transcended out So if the base chemistries are going to remain somewhat stable over long periods of time, which history says they have um My inclination would be yes But more towards the manufacturing because and whether that's additive or conventional or something else Manufacture those alloys are going to be around It's it's just inconceivable to think that they won't be around And so how they're made with the properties and structure is going to be very relevant But manufacturing is going to be as important as anything from my perspective Well, they don't call them super alloys for nothing I mean, they really are amazing right there. There are very few materials that could operate at 90 percent of their melting points and And you know be manufacturable by all these different paths And so I agree. It's inconceivable that they would go away. The question is, you know, What will be different and what will be new? and I think certainly additive is a place where where new ones are needed and And that's not a simple question because you know starting from day zero. There's a whole issue of the powders Which is a pretty big deal and and lots to do there There's a whole design space that people haven't really looked at sort of between cobalt and nickel You know, we might get to the point where we know enough about them that we can really be Tailoring them and not really going through The same sorts of qualifications that that we go through now But having said that, you know, that's a tricky business because people are still making mistakes When they develop and implement them And so, uh, I think there's there's a lot to be said for Being more predictive about the way they behave in corrosion oxidation mechanical properties We're still there's still plenty left to do there. And so the the whole sort of predicting how they they behave After 10 years and 20 years is is important And they are really quite circular right almost all every ingot of super alloy that's made is probably 80 Scrap or something like that. So they're expensive enough that people really keep track of them and And and reuse them whenever they can and so it's a it's a very interesting Materials domain because they're expensive. They've been invested in they're interesting from a scientific point of view. And so Don't worry about it. So, thanks. So you you all discussed the Gap between what happens at the lab and and a product the commercial product that makes it It helps benefit society And we're all interested in closing that gap and an MGI and ICME are focused on doing that And I was wondering whether we could learn from other fields where Maybe they do these better and what I'm thinking about specifically is the semiconductor industry With the it rs right the international technology roadmap for semiconductors now It's replaced by whatever rebooting IEEE rebooting And where they had to be a very precise guidelines and and constraints and and targets On a almost yearly basis for their industry moving forward. And I think that helped, you know March universities behind common goals and and looking at things that they knew were You know going to make it to the to the markets. Is that something that Would be interesting to think about in in other fields and in materials so I'll I'll start having had a spent probably about five of my 20-some-odd years of career with praxe air in the electronics field and run in their electronics business and actually being associated with Some of that semi sematech and that that roadmap and the short answer is There's no doubt the semiconductor industry especially 20 years ago kind of Maybe not at the beginning of the industry But as it was really ramping up its applications Was no doubt a leader in the creation of a roadmap for the industry My observation was that part of that was due to more's law For those of you who are familiar that was gordon moore talking about getting Doubling the amount of transistors every certain amount of time and That every year or so and so with that kind of credo that the industry had to respond. How are we going to Address that and they did very well That and roadmaps now are part of almost everyone's technology commercialization plan So I think it's absolutely a viable approach companies use them industries use them one thing that can kind of Throw a bit of a roadblock or a monkey wrench into it is when something A disruptor happens a new technology five years ago or maybe 10 years ago People weren't talking about additive technology Some of the folks in whitehall probably weren't investing in additive technology because they were Trying to cost reduce what they're doing. I can assure you the folks in whitehall now are betting big On additive technology. So roadmaps are absolutely an excellent example Disruptive technologies though can can change roadmaps quickly And america makes have have established a series of roadmaps for additive manufacturing development Um Probably don't have the fidelity that they need right now because it's everything's still very new I think someone said to count the wild wild west right now Uh, and that's very true. So new technologies are still being developed new material systems are being brought forward Um, but we fully recognize and I think some attack and a lot of those were were quoted as being that's the Kind of milestone that we want to go after Oh, it seems to me that that roadmaps are are very useful If you know where you are on the escrow right right at the bottom where you're starting to do this because that's sort of Next phase you can kind of project what's needed and put the metrics out there and and and that's tremendously helpful One of my pet peeves when we were always going around talking about the materials genome Which by the way is a terrible thing to name it, but that's what the white house did the former white house and it it The thing that I kept telling everyone which I thought would be useful was you know the human genome initiative Put metrics out there for how fast they were going to sequence what they were, you know And and they published the results of how much progress had been made every year against those metrics in science magazine you can go back and track but by Virtue of the fact that those metrics were there people jumped over those bars and went further And so I think that's something we've always been lacking To some degree in some of these areas of materials is just sort of you know What are our metrics and and how do we as a community? Decide where to put them I mean do we want to put them on on you know certain aspects of being predictive about Manufacturing processes or or do we want to put them on you know how fast we can Explore a space or but we we have not been successful in in making a set of metrics around Many parts of the the valley of death problem, and I wish we could Do that to a greater extent You know the aim for the materials genome initiative was to discover develop and deploy new materials twice as fast Did we achieve that? Well in the report we said 10x so I'm glad we changed that later That was maybe a little too ambitious I think it's safe to say that that that has been achieved if you pick say aerospace materials There's no question that you can do that a lot faster And and so but where have you seen that written down, right? So I think this Sort of some discipline around documenting it which You know a lot of times people don't want to document it because that's your strategic advantage so I think in materials we're we're close to our industry friends, but but It can't be hard to to get everyone on the documentation page unless our dod friends insist that they do it First let me introduce me a little bit My name is Liang Tian So during my PID when we designed and fabricate a novel material called aluminum matrix calcium filaments reinforced composite so the Anticipated properties is high like high strength and high electric conductivity So we we want this material to be used as a high voltage power transmission cable And we get the strength and twice as high as the industrial Cables and electric conductivity about 22 percent higher than the industrial cables Yeah, this basically corresponds to today's topic about new materials how it can change your life Yeah, but I'm going to start with my questions So my questions is just uh, so what's the primary challenges? Of how to put a matter additive manufacturing into industry Uh and and the two other questions are and So and yeah, I also saw the quantum computing news yesterday. I'm just wondering So how do you see the future of quantum computing would affect the? The computation design the Experiment also how the computation design helps experiment designing new materials Yeah, that's my two questions. Thank you So the first one well, I'll start talking. I don't I don't have an answer but Um, so the first question related to what you perceive to be the barriers To additive manufacturing and industry Okay, so I would say speed Productivity cost All right, but mostly speed I'd also throw in the one of the problems you're running into right now is as you're trying to get things Additive parts into a flight critical system Uh, the maturity the reproducibility Um additive printers are very good at printing geometries But geometry is just a shape a part has a function And you have to prove that what you printed can function and that that's the gets into qualification and and Verification that's a totally different game and and that's early. You will see a handful of parts have made through that the GE fuel injector a few other parts have actually been qualified and are now flying So I would say that that most printers right now are still kind of early That they do not have the reproducibility They're just now getting to the quality the material systems are being I'll say matured enough to actually get through Um, so you're now it's still an early technology. So that's where the that's the barrier running into is some of the more critical Applications cost is obviously at the end of the day. It always comes down to cost Um, you've got to be able to show whatever use case you're going to is There's a benefit to doing it So while it might be technologically beautiful it if it doesn't make the the cost metric it it's not going to go So there's a lot of factors into that There's no way I can answer your second question. So So I'll have to just say ditto to to john and bob's comments because they hit the nail on the head it's If you have for additive to become more commercial than a three billion dollar industry, which is already You know nothing to sneeze at but to move once you start moving into some of the Very high volume things. It's going to take time in Two pretty long life cycle or two pretty long product qualification cycle industries medical and aerospace medical because doctors are inherently very conservative people And aerospace because they're even more conservative. So I'm going to let Teresa talk about the I'll turn it around on you. That's that's That's your job You just tell us what it's going to do Yeah So I completely agree about the reproducibility problem and I think you know that's that comes back to us as materials people a little bit We need to think harder about You know NDE approaches and and things that we can do to probe those structures without destroying them Because somebody's probably going to have to check everyone And and so they're they're you know, they're they're not always large objects So there's some things that we might do there quantum computing There are so many different approaches that people are thinking about all of which require Some materials innovations and so there's there's going to be some materials jobs there for for quite some time as far as I can see But I think you know in the long run It will happen So I think the thing you should be thinking about quantum computing is that That you know somewhere along the line there's going to be this tremendous capability And so you should be thinking forward that that will become available and that will probably Change a lot of things That that we do And so it's early days like I said just this week. I think Was a breakthrough but it's it's you know, there's algorithms about using these approaches and there's There's so many things left to do. It's going to be a long time before It's sitting on our desktop, but but eventually, you know, it will be a breakthrough. I predict Yeah Can't do a follow up question So I think the price of the alloy powder right now for additive manufacturing is really high Is that the kind of the prime one of the primary challenges So having some experience of actually manufacturing powders for a living for quite some time And therese's comment around the recycling of powder was was dead nuts, you know, when you have high Value raw materials like cobalt and nickel not super high like platinum or gold or silver, but not low like iron The manufacturing costs have to incorporate the recycling and the reutilization of those materials The way you get at that economically Fundamentally is through technology and volume And as the volumes rise You can invest in technology. That's inherently more Cost-effective for higher volumes And there are about two or three Significant powder makers who are doing that right now And I can tell you the bets they're putting down are not small bets So they believe they're betting they're investing In technology that they think they can leverage over volume to kind of make it Attractive and my guess is when you're at less than one percent penetration of aerospace market And Other markets out there the technology To do things in bulk for expensive alloys Will come and will you know be manifest in lower or at least acceptable price powders In Applications that can generate the value and returns on these hundred million dollar plus investments in aggregate To to supply that type of volume. I don't know if that answered your question or if there's other There are also a number of um here if you look at the total breakdown of a lot of costs Depending on how much extra machining inspection You can actually run it into that the material cost the powder cost is a not Tremendous portion of the total cost of the part You know if you have Hipping CT you know for a very Specific part you have to go back and do a lot of touch-up machining Those costs will easily dwarf your your powder costs. So it makes it a very expensive part So, you know, there's plenty of room for improvement in the additive additive manufacturing process So if you can make your surface finish better If you can make you know a in situ inspection or something along those lines so that you minimize the the after Inspection requirements those are all areas that can improve. So there are a lot of ways, you know, the powder costs are coming down There are a lot of opportunities to change the economics of 3d printing You essentially answered this question in your last response, but I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more on How industries and businesses reconcile the high overhead costs of Implementation of more sustainable methods of design and manufacturing particularly additive manufacturing and your idea of remanufacturing So the way I would answer that is It's a valuation activity And I say that because companies do things to make sure their values stay high And if they can't do things that are sustainable their values will not stay high so What employees of companies who are maybe not directly involved with The financial elements of valuation and sustainability what they're chartered to do is identify investments Technologies materials processes products that are inherently More sustainable than what they're currently being that's what's currently being done And I can tell you that's a very active kind of engineering activity right now is to look at things in corporations to make them more I'm just going to say sustainable And what those investments are and and how that will improve the overall You know cycle economic cycle of the products that the company is making and You know endeavors to make in their foreseeable future So I I can just comment a little bit Things have I started doing this work back in about 91 92 and things have changed a lot you know As as was noted at least this is on the company's radar It's in it's on the minds of students all over the place right so At least in my mind You know things are looking a lot better now than they did in in the 90s And and I think you know, we've we've made a lot of progress and you know the move the needle so to speak There's still a lot of discussion about how do you balance kind of the three pillars of sustainability? economy You know society and the environment and some of these are are challenging, you know But a lot of the the great solutions that they come back to design and coming up with the great ideas in the first place Hi, excuse me. I I'm a sophomore in materials engineering and I don't know if this is the type of questions you're looking for But do you have any advice for someone who's just starting out, you know, sort of wide-eyed stepping into materials Enjoy the ride I would say second that I mean, it's it's a fascinating field. It's almost endless. It touches everything you can go from physical to medical to Just about anywhere. So it's it's a great space to go and explore Find what really it you know draws you into it and yeah, it's Everything's made out of material so I would say there's never been a better time I mean every area of materials has just got exciting things going on and And so I think your first task is to you know Learn about those areas and figure out what what grabs you the most but at the same time Don't forget There's all these other related disciplines that are going to help you do materials computer science and parts of electrical engineering and mechanical engineering and so Obviously in four years you're not going to have time for all of that but you can at least Be aware of what's going on around you and and don't forget to take advantage of of what the university offers is all these extra things that go beyond your discipline that you have to Try to cross campus to take advantage of but You know once you leave here that that doesn't happen anymore So so make the most of it and you have an airport airport. So don't forget to get your pilot's license. That was my biggest mistake Well Okay, quick question a little bit maybe different but sometimes there's new materials new products are introduced and when there's a lot of dollars involved in introducing them Uh, there are some perhaps detrimental side effects that you don't see I wonder if there are some case studies some ethical case studies you can point to maybe that can help people Understand some of the decisions they're making Uh, and maybe look at things that have happened in the past to make sure that you're making a good choice now as you're rolling out Uh, a new product or a new material So you're familiar with mtbe So this was the gasoline additive that we introduced a number of years ago to you know help Help reduce Um emissions, right Anybody remember this? Yeah We still use an mtbe. No turns out that uh, it was a problem so Unfortunately, that is often the case You know people come up with good ideas and i'm not suggesting we need to slow down and You know that's that's bad because then you'll never do anything. There's risks and everything we do Uh, but a little bit more foresight perhaps and in terms of thinking about new ideas and New technologies new materials new especially new chemicals that I would I I think that's probably a good idea There's a movie called pentagon wars if you ever want to watch it That'll show you a lot of things that the do d has done in years past on where things get forced through and decisions get made that aren't Technologically sound anymore just because someone's got to get get the job done Um, it's it's a black comedy, but it's based on the launch of the bradley vehicle I'll just leave that for extracurricular activity from this so well Is that okay? Uh, well with that, um, let's thank the panel again And we greatly appreciate you all being involved today. Thank you