 debates from the University of the West Indies and some of our own academics from Kings College London School of Security to discuss what is I think we all agree one of the most critical issues of our time. I hope this is going to be the first in a series of engagements and collaborations between school securities, part of war studies and University of the West Indies. So in opening I'm going to say a few words about what we hope to achieve here and to provide a little context to open the discussion. Then each speaker will have sort of a significant time to talk 10 minutes or so longer and then we can have a collective discussion with time for questions and we have Isabella Duarte Frangini who's moderating questions as they come in. So please put your questions into the chat when you have them. I'll say the point at which questions are welcome. So let me start then firstly with a couple of words of opening. Of course COVID-19 the ongoing pandemic is widely described across publications as a wake-up call for those of us in scholarship and in policy thinking about planetary health and its security implications so that there are clear ways in which the pandemic is indicative or even emblematic of how climatic processes create and are tied up with security challenges that are harmful in the extreme to human well-being and so the zoonotic pandemics as the ongoing one is is one example but also we could be talking about soil erosion, desertification, rising sea levels, the increasing strength of tropical storms and all of these have primary secondary and tertiary security implications that are national, that are regional, they're also global and touch upon key issues about the nature of international order itself in some situations. So many elements of the COVID crisis that's ongoing and indeed the response to it worldwide so things like social distancing involve quite significant changes at the social level. They involve significant governmental action and significant expense also so there's some degree to which maybe there are grounds to hope and perhaps we can have some elements of a hopeful discussion today that the COVID crisis will set the diplomatic efforts soon to come at the next COP meeting in the UK later this year in a new light and perhaps you know allow or foster efforts by the international community to move towards a response that's adequate to the scale of the global security challenges that are tied up with climatic processes but and one would think indeed that you know the point about us needing to be prepared and to take action in advance to prevent this kind of thing might that lesson might have been learned and be deployed in relationship to the wider climate crisis by negotiators but with that kind of hope I think we can also see some grounds for pessimism in thinking about global climate security in the light of COVID inequality in the distribution of vaccines and there's some centralization around the wealthier nations it is reflected of course in the unequal distribution of the costs of managing climate security risks where those some say experiencing the front line of the climate crisis bear the highest costs and in some senses the questions and challenges of solidarity around climate in the aftermath or in the shadow of COVID I think are are significant in this context so you know with these kinds of issues at stake how could COVID-19 not impact and have have a role in relationship to the UN discussions around COP around climate change and so I in a sense that the question is is what will that be now turning out this event itself and what we're doing today is we're bringing together some scholars from the University of West Indies and School of Security to think through and discuss in a kind of open way on the academic setting we have here our all experts in particular areas and I hope there's going to be some exciting synergies across our interests but to look fundamentally about how how pandemic COVID-19 frames the global security implications of climate change and I think you know one of the key drivers for this event in part is you know COVID-19 really does underscore some of the global differences at play and the ways in which differential exposure to the impacts of climate change and also the ways in which knowledge and expertise about how to respond effectively to climate change are often centered in those states such as those in the Caribbean where the security implications of climate change have long been apparent there's no no surprises here so this is a sort of inaugural round table of what I hope would be a wider set of discussions and we're going to talk about two broad questions the first being you know how talking specifically about Caribbean in this context how how Caribbean community member states experiences and expertise with relationship to climate security risks frame their response to the pandemic and and vice versa and and to set this in the context of a second question in what ways will or should this pandemic influence international debates on tackling the climate emergency at the UN COP 2021 and so we are really exceptionally privileged to have Dr. Suzette Horton and Huseley from the University of the West Indies Dr. Horton is head of the Department of Government and seen a lecturer in international relations and security studies at the University of West Indies and she's also herself a Department of War studies alumni so we're delighted to come back to join us for this discussion. Dr. Huseley is an Electoral and Climate Change at the Centre of Resource Management and Environmental Studies at the University of West Indies and Kayfield Barbados so sorry Dr. Horton is at Mona Campus Jamaica he's a research fellow in the Wynwood Islands Research and Education Foundation and the director of the UN FCCC Regional Collaboration Centre he says enormous hands on experience in relationship to environmental science and development questions and studying environmental impacts in the Caribbean region so I'm really excited to hear both of their reflections and from our side in School of Security we are delighted to have Simon Chinye who has significant experience himself in international organizations in relationship to the UN ESCO and himself in his research examines climate change conflict in relationship to vulnerable populations with an emphasis on the African region and his research is also focused on global climate negotiations and their relationship to national context so I hope you can bring some of that knowledge to bear. And finally we have Dr. Lierie Briffer also from School of Security she's the recipient of the UN State Department's inaugural Emerging Young Leaders Award and one of the inaugural hands Morgan Thouf Fellows her research focuses on small states and post-colonial actors in the international systems and the way in which agency and questions of autonomy play out here so she's currently involved in a project exploring the implications for multilateralism particularly in the context of small island states of the post-COVID era so I'm really excited to open this discussion and we'll start please with um if I might open the um open the discussion to Dr. César Horton and if you'd be willing to open I will look forward to this discussion and the debates that follow. Thank you so much for coming and forward to the conversation. Okay thank you Nick I bring greetings from the Department of Government at UW Imono to my colleagues at King's College and to my colleague in Barbados. I'm extremely delighted to participate in this event. I have a short presentation so I'm not able to share my screen it's saying host disabled attendee screen sharing so if you could just allow me Isabella if not then let me just um check that there with some moment um I get that it's working now it is now okay let's see oh perfect okay let me try this again to share my screen so here we are I'm trying to find the okay here we go okay all right just over here okay so my presentation today I'll be looking at um Caribbean climate security and COVID-19 pandemic I hope to do this in just about 10 minutes okay so this is a map of the Caribbean region showing the Caribbean island states here Jamaica and the other island states if you note carefully the states are surrounded by either the Caribbean Sea or the North Atlantic Ocean okay my approach I'll be looking at a brief definition of climate change and climate security I'll then go directly into um addressing Caribbean government's responses to COVID-19 and climate change and the impacts on the citizens and states then um addressing the similarities and differences between COVID-19 and climate change and of course the implications for human security and then I look at the overall implications for Caribbean security governance and I conclude with errors for further consideration now climate change is seen as a threat multiplier it places huge burden on the infrastructure of states and the viability of the nation state and the well-being of the population and the the physical I'm sorry the physical security um an environment and climate security refers to people's communities and states capacities to manage these climate-induced threats in connecting COVID-19 and security and climate change it's important to know that COVID-19 and climate change are considered as existential threats for the Caribbean region climate change risk factors impact negatively on human security and of course they combine with other societal factors to indirectly undermine state stability and the state's security things such as losing the livelihood of citizens their tougher economic realities in the region has pushed increased numbers of citizens to engage in criminal activities and unsustainable environmental practices in order to survive and the region suffers from high homicide rates gang presence illegal gun possession and transnational organized crime particularly drug trafficking and money laundering now the climate-induced risk factors that affect the Caribbean region involves natural disasters particularly floods and hurricanes the water crisis drought rising sea levels and extreme temperatures and heat now COVID-19 has changed our lives dramatically it has changed our social interaction it has changed the economic activities within the region and the Caribbean states have responded to COVID-19 by closing their borders by imposing lockdowns and curfews stay at home orders and work from home orders and the entire pandemic has been securitized the language around the pandemic has been securitized as well as measures that have been imposed to address COVID-19 such as the the passage of certain laws as in the case of Jamaica the Disaster Risk Management Act which was amended to include the pandemic pandemic and law enforcers have been given extraordinary powers in order to impose fines on citizens who leave their homes without good reasons during the lockdowns or during the curfews or for those citizens who refuse to wear a mask now in terms of the impacts on the states and the citizens these impacts have been profound impacts have been seen in terms of the public health emergencies the economic pressure additional economic pressure that the state in the states in the regions have faced and also the deep economic and and debt crisis and this has resulted negatively on individuals so we are seeing greater levels of social and economic inequity within the society and there are also concerns surrounding food food insecurity now the Caribbean region as a whole has been responding to climate change each of the countries have dedicated ministries or agencies to address the impact of climate change so for instance in Jamaica we have a specific ministry it's called the ministry of land environment and climate change and this ministry has been prioritized under the office of the prime minister so that's distorted significance that has been placed on climate change all members Caribbean member states have signed and have ratified the Paris agreement and the countries have laid out certain plans to address renewable energy sources nationally states are embarking on protecting ecologically sensitive errors and for for instance in Jamaica there has been the passage of the national protected act which prioritizes and identifies 15 errors that are considered as ecologically sensitive errors that need to be protected and the government is also embarking on what they consider as efforts to to address carbon fixing so each individual each citizen within the country can access 10 trees the plant and these trees are free and the government is also embarking on renewable energy by establishing a wind farm a wind farm known as a wind farm and this is the largest wind farm in the English speaking region Caribbean region now looking at the similarities and differences between climate change and COVID-19 climate change and COVID-19 both affects human health as it relates to climate change extreme heat is likely to worsen the impact and air pollution can increase the risk of contracting COVID-19 as well as can increase the debt rates associated with COVID-19 likewise climate change for air quality due to greenhouse gas emissions affect human health and of course this can also result in loss of life now COVID-19 has resulted in economic follow for the Caribbean region which impacts negatively on servicing of debt and also increase states borrowing capability and borrowing capability so they have to borrow more not so much their capability but they have to borrow more in order to fund COVID related activities such as vaccine and having the the medical supplies and the necessary which are fitting of hospitals etc and climate change global warming which causes rising sea levels imposes an external threat to Caribbean nation states and this affects negatively the tourism sector as hotels in the region are really located on the coast and states now will have to borrow more in order to improve climate change resilience now COVID-19 is seen as something that is fast moving it has almost sit us overnight and we have to states and individuals have to respond quickly whereas climate change is considered as something that is more slow moving it's a centuries long problem COVID-19 is impacting across the globe and the climate change is providing or producing uneven impacts across the globe COVID-19 is will likely pass but climate change is slow but is also an ongoing problem and will span over many generations in terms of the responses COVID-19 the responses from government from individuals the responses were immediate concerning climate change responses is a little slow and uneven and also in terms of public perception or public expectation is that there should be immediate action and response from the government and these responses should be translated into policy response and should impact on behavior change whereas for climate change the public expectation is a little different it's there's a lower expectation as it relates to an immediate response and people are less likely to immediately change your behavior but people and why this is so is because people have the perception that climate change is a lower risk as compared to COVID-19 which is seen as a higher risk overall implications for the Caribbean region as it relates to security governance there's need for improved food security social protection and health there's also need for enhanced national security protocols to address severe natural disasters and the strengthening of government and civil society institutions to meet the challenge of disaster management and all of these measures should prioritize the needs of the most vulnerable within our societies and finally in terms of the conclusion and errors for further consideration there's need to think about vertical agriculture to align with how buildings and cities have been expanding in the region vertical agriculture to deal with high-rise buildings and to also embark on innovative irrigation systems there's also a need to switch to electric cars and for people to change the way they live so our lifestyles must change and even the way we eat should change there's need for sensitization and preservation and also about conservation and importantly Caribbean governments will need public finance in order to address issues that will emerge and that are emerging from climate change and COVID-19 so I thank you that's my contribution in terms of presentation today. Thank you very much Dr Hawkin I think some really interesting points here particularly around the way in which climate change is perceived as being this kind of lower risk phenomenon relative to something like COVID-19 but of course COVID-19 is supposed to have a much longer term process and indeed the costs are probably likely to be higher over time now I think what we'll do is I'll give everybody their chance to talk and then we'll have a discussion at the end and thank you so much and now I'll pass over to Dr Hussili next to speak if you're happy. Well thanks Nicholas and thank you for having me and welcome to all the participants. I'm afraid I have no slides I have no prepared speech so I'm going to free flow okay and I'm not a security expert my forte if I do have one is is talking about climate change and one of your first questions Nicholas was was do we have any particular expertise or better perspective or has how to be with COVID because we are small island people that we're having to be with a climate emergency and I thought a lot about that question and I my simple answer is no at least I don't think so but I'll draw upon that but just imagine the situation in Barbados where we had a change in administration in 2018 the economy was in dire straits we went to the IMF we had a 170 something percent debt to GDP ratio we spent 2019 trying to dig ourselves out of a huge financial hole and we were getting there 2020 was supposed to be a year of celebration we were supposed to bring Barbados from all over the diaspora to Barbados every month we would bring back people and we started well in January went into February and then coded him within weeks our tourism went to zero to zero right in the middle of our tourism season the peak of our tourism season the net result being a 20 loss in GDP in 2020 when we went from a five billion US dollar economy to a four billion US dollar economy in one year and we are in an IMF program at the start so when you ask me how we dealt with COVID I'm surprised that I'm still talking to you I'm surprised that I still have a job and a lot of us don't and that's a problem so let me go back then to to the question about whether we handle it that any better than others come I think some of our statistics or public health statistics are showing yes we've had less less cases less hospitalizations less deaths on a per capita basis we do have a significant geographical advantage in the fact that we're surrounded by water and and therefore it's fairly easy to close to close or to manage or or borders yes things we did not do well we're supposed to be a Caribbean community did we did we approach the COVID-19 situation collectively was there any coherent carry calm response to COVID-19 I see Dr. Houghton shaking her head because I agree with her no it was every island for itself we even closed borders on ourselves on our own citizens trying to get back home and left them stuck in neighboring countries did Barbados do well by not closing this border that's a question as to whether that should be on the plus side or the negative side because that one stage in 2020 we were COVID free free we fought it and we blocked it and then we reopened our borders perhaps or we never closed our borders that's put that way until it started to come back but then they came back with the UK variant and now we're back into a lockdown again and we're going to have to face that as to okay well how do we come out of this safe and the only passage way that we see is okay we all get vaccinated but as using how you've clearly indicated on the vaccination fund is every country for it for itself and we are way down the the totem pole when it comes to receiving vaccines although Barbados has done significantly better than other islands because of vaccine diplomacy from India not from more traditional developed country partners okay and at the same time this is going on we dismantled original airline liat at least the one that that services the eastern Caribbean so so we have that loss of ability to to to go back and forth anyway what did we do well I think we planned well because we saw it happen in Europe we saw it happen in the US we had a couple of months of of leeway that we could we could plan and therefore we built out purpose built quarantine facilities and and we did that rapidly and that and that allowed us not to overwhelm or or hospital facilities and I make sure that all COVID-19 related cases could go to this specialized facility we relied heavily on what's traditionally a strong public health program at least in Barbados where we've had socialist democratic governments for for decades now with with significant expenditure on education and help and that paid off because we have the poly clinics and even then we thank you Cuba you still board over 100 nurses from from Cuba who are still here helping us I think one of the good things we did from a business standpoint is we maintained communication with the cruise ship industry even though the cruise ship industry had shut down Barbados became a home port for several cruise ships operating with the skeleton cruise but we managed to get the passengers off of the of the cruise ships I think that we built up some some brownie points with it with the cruise ship industry and that may be down to our benefit in the future with with more cruise ship passengers coming per year never waste a good crisis I think it was Naomi Klein she was talking about shop doctrine a Canadian author so I think this this overreliance on tourism I think it was obvious to us before but it was it was made truly apparent that that we are overreliant on on tourism I think all of us have taken back on board both the public and and the private sector and and and there's gonna be a strong strong push to to diversify our economy even within the tourism sector itself we're looking to that model to see does that model really work how we how we move now to the mass tourism type of model should we pull back from that and now we have this long stay welcome stamp where we're trying to bring people in for 12 months to let them stay here work here spend their money here etc we were losing a lot of the tourism dollar anyway because of the of the model that had been set up there's a new focus on our culture and and I'm really pleased with that because that seems to be an alignment where where you have a crisis there's a there's an impact on your on your supply chains people get worried that that that the supermarkets are not going to have food and all of a sudden there's a mad push back towards our coach everyone starts to grow things back in the backyard again and a large farm start start switching back to to to produce it vegetables and fruits for the local market and that also then exposes the the the fact that we don't have the water for irrigation so now we're pushing towards a massive national water reclamation program where we're going to spend about four percent of our GDP four percent of our GDP over the next few years to to put a reclaimed water distribution network in place to allow for better agricultural productivity as a direct result of of this feeling of insecurity that we that we now have because of of COVID-19 I think our populations responded very well to to to the protocols the role of government and and and in this COVID-19 impact I found that interesting I'm not a political scientist by any stretch of the imagination my chemical engineer but I I got a feeling that those who are very strong on the feeling of the individual versus the feeling of the collective or the or the government are those that did not respond very well to the to the protocols that were put in place in our island there there is a culture of compliance perhaps there's the culture of knowing the role of government and we have had significant the good compliance with wearing of mask distancing sanitization several some would argue that our governments have been too harsh on on offenders and we have put people in jail but because of of of breaking of curfews this this Easter weekend that is coming up we are in lockdown mode we are we are in stay at home mode and it's it's hard where we missed crop over our carnival last year which is a a social safety valve and we're probably going to miss crop over again our carnival again this this year does that mean that we have an up frustration in the society that's going to come out at some point I do not know on the last week because I I said I wasn't going to speak too long on the turn the question around Nicholas on the impact of COVID now on the cop 26 negotiations and I now put on my hat as a negotiator for for for the alliance of small island states so so COVID-19 has been a disaster for for climate change negotiations yes there's been a small blip in the number of one of the missions that we're putting out but we've delayed for a year and and and Glasgow is not guaranteed in November at least a face-to-face is still not guaranteed in in in November and and to push back even another year is is at this time when we're supposed to be submitting our or nationally determined contributions for for 2030 when we're supposed to be talking about the hundred billion dollar goal per year whether we've met it we're supposed to talk about the new collective qualified goals of climate finance to 2025 where are we going to be made all of that for for for another two years so on the positive side does this give us a chance to do the great reset that that's some of our friends at the world economic forum have been talking about does this give us an opportunity to build forward better because I'm not building back anything I'm not building back any fossil fuel industry so don't tell me we'll build back better tell me we'll build forward better so is this a time now where we can see that this is an opportunity for us to to build forward better are we grasping that opportunity are are we are we stopping investment are we stopping in fossil fuels are we stopping subsidies in in in fossil fuels I'll leave that as a question to the panelists thanks Nicholas thank you very much dr. Celia loads of really interesting stuff I hope we can take up in in in the later conversations some of the points are around sort of vaccine diplomacy and which states have been involved I think in the region I think are as important and also the interesting reversal whereby the response to COVID in the region has actually produced changes in the way in which management of water and so on is also interesting but the point you make at the end around climate issues is is obviously absolutely critical and really important and one we need to continue to take up thank you very much for contribution that's great I'll now pass on to Simon please to to to take up the conversation I'm going forward thank you very much thank you. Hello everyone thanks Nick as well Ben thank you to to Susan Hugh for their for their interventions were really really interesting beyond this panel I very rarely get to speak on panels with with our partners in the Caribbean and and I've worked with the University of West Indies and Barbados in the past about a decade ago actually and my father's actually from Jamaica so this is a but I actually work mostly on African states as as Nick said in the introduction so my intervention hope what Dr. Horton and Dr. Sealy have already spoken about and I'm going to focus focus my intervention on climate justice and human security and what that means for the global south in general and hope you'll be able to bring in some example but as we have a panel full of panelists full of from the region itself hopefully I'll just compliment that and then finally I'll look again to compliment what Dr. Sealy just said and to figure out how this will play out in COP26 at the end of this year potentially and the and the involvement of and the and COVID-19 and what that means for justice in the climate negotiations so in terms of climate justice itself or maybe I should keep calling it climate injustice actually this is there because it's the it's the least those the most vulnerable that are least able to adapt that are feeling them the greatest effects the feeling the effects most acutely so these least developed countries are in the global south and there are so many reasons that that human security is affected by climate change I could I I have a list as long as my arm but a few of them are for island states for example one of the of course sea level rise whether you're in the Caribbean the Indian Ocean the Pacific Ocean the islands of Kiribati Tuvalu Vanuatu Maldives Seychelles Barbuda Barbados every there are everyone is is impacted by by sea level rise in terms of extreme weather events Dr. Haughton already brought this up the idea that extreme weather events are are are are are becoming more extreme and they're affecting also island states but actually not only island states as we've seen with flooding and and and these events that in Texas Florida should be super worried about what what's happening to them right now Mozambique two years ago I'm sure many of you remember Hurricane Edai when it plowed into Mozambique Malawi and Zimbabwe killing a thousand people flattening the town of Birra and causing a massive humanitarian crisis in the in that region desertification desertification is bringing is the is is forcing people to move we see this mostly in especially in the in sub-Saharan Africa as people moving within the countries but as opposed to what we think up here in Europe is everyone's trying to move into Europe but actually that's not the case at all most people are not leaving the countries themselves the Fulani herders in Nigeria are moving south but they're still in Nigeria but they're coming into conflict with with farmers for example further south and this and this brings up all that I that that notion of these conflicts these these this notion of that Dr. Haughton also brought up of exacerbating exacerbating conflicts but that's see and this is what we see in security reports from almost 20 years now from out of the Pentagon out of the UK out of the EU that associate climate change with human security mostly in looking at areas of already volatile zones such as South Africa such as India such as Indonesia and so there are all these are all these are some just some of the issues that climate change raises in terms of human security now within the negotiations for example there is this concept called the right to exist the fact that this concept exists in the first place tell is telling in terms of climate justice and Dr. Sealy I'm sure you could speak better on this than I could as being a negotiator for Oasis but one of but if you're from one of those a small island state for example you're literally fighting for your right to exist within the climate negotiations so there are two sides to this though so the first side so one of so if we bring up this idea this notion of the climate refugee a climate refugee is not officially in the international lexicon at the moment now should it be that's the question so on one side of the equation yes maybe it should be there's a contingency plan there if you're kitty bass right now you might be you are looking to see where your future is and if you have this sort of legalized vocabulary it might be easier for you or maybe important for you in the future if you are forced to leave there have been two cases that I'm aware of in New Zealand of small island states that have this but on the flip side of that this is the problem within the negotiations on the other side of that you have the fear that if we accept the fact that a climate refugee is existing that it that this will give those large emitters carte blanche to keep emitting and so this is what a lot of the island states are fighting against the first to stop them emitting and and to recognize the problem and the issues that are the situation that they are in but the second is also is also a fear that this will be an acceptance and that for them it is really really mitigation that is important here not migration no one wants to be a climate refugee no one must be a refugee at all of course they don't but in the global south or in island states but in the global south in general but island states as well if you're literally fighting for your right to exist that means you're fighting for your cultural heritage your heritage of thousands of years is tied to the sand it's tied to the sea it's tied to this the sun isn't it great if another island state or another land is giving you place a place to leave so of the hundred thousand people that live in Kiribati the the another island states of Timor-Leste has pledged some land for them but it's not their land so this is literally how they're going about it's one of the approaches within the climate negotiations now within the negotiations themselves the climate justice manifests itself in the language in of common but differentiated responsibilities now this concept has been it's it's been there for over 20 years now right under Kyoto what we saw is that there was literally between global south and global north were divided you had annex one you had annexed two countries annex one countries were told to go away here's the targets you need to reach you go away you come back and when you reach them and they didn't uh under paris trying to learn from the mistakes made in Copenhagen in 2009 um they came up with this bottom up approach the bottom up approach saying okay all states all of you now go away tell us what you can do and then yeah with the uh with the with the foresight that you're going to then start that as your baseline and then ratchet up ambition this is why 2020 was supposed to be such an important year for climate negotiations because we were supposed to after five years since paris we were supposed to see the ratcheting up of ambition as dr Sealy already said so we missed that opportunity and now we've moved into 2021 we might be missing this opportunity i've already heard rumors that it cop 26 is canceled already this year i hope not but it is really really important to understand how we sit and how climate justice plays out when it comes to the global south because i'll bring it up again the first part is uh is responsibility the global south is not historically responsible for the current state of affairs the second is vulnerability uh they tend to be the most vulnerable uh uh to the effects of climate change they're already they've been already feeling them for years now the third would be adaptive capacity the ability to adapt to these changes this is where the money is needed right you need a lot of these countries they've got nothing to mitigate so they need the they need the finance out there through these mechanisms that come out of these conference of parties to finance them and the fourth and quite importantly in terms of cobit 19 is this concept of representation for years decades now the global south has been underrepresented at the climate negotiations now this is changing in the past decade i i i've seen the af i work mostly with the africa group it's it's getting a better a bigger voice uh oasis has a bigger as a much bigger voice now that maybe perhaps it did before but the debate out there now needs to figure out uh how they're going to be represented in cobit 19 because we need finance to come out of cobit of cobit 19 cop 26 we need finance to come out of cop 26 and we need to cut emissions we need those goals to be ratcheted up because we're nowhere near achieving the 1.5 degrees celsius as was set out six years ago now in the paris agreement so and the most important is that the global south needs to be listened to and and this is where cobit 19 is wearing its ugly head because we already have debates around the fact that all participants need to be face to face but you also need in that face to face they need to be vaccinated so this idea of vaccines is coming in and coming in strong because just because the uk is vaccinated for example doesn't mean that those in sirilio are going to be vaccinated so are they going to be able to participate probably not and so this is this is a it's just um it's just goes back to this idea of representation again and having uh having countries already underrepresented this is potentially putting them back in uh putting them back again so uh with that i'll close my remarks there actually and i'm happy to discuss any of those things i've been bringing back i've brought up there thank you very much simon again really really useful i think taking forward this conversation and i think the the line so far seems rather more towards pessimism than the hope that i had at the beginning but i guess unfortunately around um climate change and climate justice and the broad questions perhaps there are good grounds for more pessimism and hope but i have lots of themes there again i think i hope we'll take up some more in the discussion um hilary let me quickly pass on to you so so we do have some time to to talk and take some questions from from those who've come to listen to us go ahead hilary thanks could you activate my screen sharing the same way you do activate the doctor hotens please it should work out yeah it does thank you all right can you see my screen can you still see the powerpoint like this yeah all right i'll start my timer so i'll make sure i'm judicious at the timing well thanks so much nick for arranging this and organizing and having me here today and thanks to everybody who's spoken already uh before me there's so much to take in there um for my introduction i'm going to focus on multilateral efforts specifically to understand um how small states are using multilateral approaches to mitigate vulnerability and increase resilience in this dual fight against covid-19 and climate change and in honor of our partnership with the university of west indies today i'm going to try to focus on examples from the carabin but many of the points are transferable to cases in other regions as well particularly the pacific and given the brevity of our opening remarks i'll offer two opportunities and a big challenge and then maybe i'll expand and offer some comparisons with small states and other regions in the discussion afterwards uh so let's let's have the glass half full first and we'll start with some opportunities and starting with these in the small state literature we find that scholars like valdur torhassan and alison veils have argued that when seeking to reduce the impact of a shock small states adopt what we call shelter seeking behavior so in terms of the economic crisis brought about by covid-19 small states seek the economic shelter afforded by international organizations to offset their inbuilt structural uh weaknesses with external assistance and so a good example in this case i think is that simulchia has partnered with the sustainable development investment partnership which is a joint initiative of the world economic forum and the oacd which is supporting developing countries with accessing private investment to pursue the sustainable development goals so as part of this partnership simulchia will be supported to produce a country financing roadmap and this is intended to support partner countries to identify new sources of capital to mitigate the adverse impact of covid-19 and we're just listening to simon talking about that finance challenge and so by collaborating across both public and private sectors these kinds of initiatives can support the building of more resilient socioeconomic structures and the development of best practices that can be replicated by other developing countries so simulchia is one of only two pilot countries in this program at the moment so it's quite an exciting opportunity because if it works it could bode well for other small states as well and so then in addition to seeking shelter and securing financial assistance through international institutions small states have also been vocal on global platforms in linking the pandemic to the other significant crisis we're here to talk about in today's workshop which is of course the climate change challenge and so I'm actually going to talk quite a bit about AOSIS so Dr. Sealy feel free to tell me if I'm getting it all wrong at the end of my my points but I really wanted to point out that the height of the covid-19 outbreak in April 2020 the government of Belize which is the chair currently of the alliance of small island states and well at the at the time convened the virtual placency ambition forum to determine means by which the response to covid-19 can strengthen more sustainable climate action and so for small island states as Dr. Horton showed in her presentation climate change continues to loon large as this existential challenge to livelihood security well-being but the dramatic increase in for instance the disposal of single use plastics such as PPE gear and masks because of the pandemic was poses a distinct problem for climate biodiversity and health security so these small states are sounding the need for the global community to maintain sustainability at the heart of the pandemic response and importantly climate targets must be incorporated into stimulus packages so that resilience building efforts drive a green recovery as Dr. Cheney was pointing out in the same way that a global pandemic requires a global response the placency ambition forum was emphasizing the necessity of restructuring global financial systems to improve access to the finances necessary for all countries to meet the targets of the Paris agreements and this is particularly important because covid-19 forced the world ocean summit to be cancelled COP26 to be postponed to 2021 which we're currently looking ahead to in the UK but as Dr. Sealy pointed out you know that's the what's going to come out of that is might not even be what we're hoping for and so by linking covid-19 and climate change crises it's really small states that are keeping long-term sustainability firmly on the international agenda because they recognize that it will remain fundamental to international security stability and prosperity long after the pandemic passes and so I've put this quote from the placency ambition forum declaration which says that what we lack in resources and capacity we make up for in determination and that determination is the bid to hold in this industrialized nations to their commitments in the pursuit of actual net zero emissions by 2050 and realization of the 2030 agenda for sustainable development now moving on to the challenges I'm typically an international relations scholar not strictly an economist but in this case security and economics cannot be separated on this subject since the economic impact of the pandemic has induced both demand and supply side shocks small economies which are already disproportionately exposed to fluctuations in global markets because small states are disproportionately reliant on trade they will suffer heavily from the decline in global growth as larger actors also enter into recession and small states are not all the same so for instance a small island developing states largely lack the same fiscal space and liquidity to compensate in the same way as small advanced economies like Singapore and Malta which have deployed enormous financial recovery packages and so without the leverage to revise the terms of access to concession of finance through international financial institutions many small island developing states will struggle to emerge from this crisis and I know that initiatives like the G20 debt repayment suspension or a step in the right direction this includes this excludes middle-income countries so you end up with a situation where a country like Belize has suffered severe flooding of their hurricanes Etna and Laiota last year crops were destroyed homes infrastructure and so are they not you know do they not deserve and need assistance it's not there's a disconnect there and this is why I've put this quote from Christopher Coy who is a minister of state in Belize finance ministry in an interview just this month with climate news where he said we find ourselves underwater and at risk of sinking even deeper we know that small states are predominantly price policy takers not makers of international financial policies and so there's a limit to what they can do without structural change to build resilience and enable green recovery and development so in addition to debt service suspension AOSIS have called on the UN to work with the small island developing states and a whole host of practical recommendations to restructure external debt obligations and it's the way to foster future economic stability and you can read all their you know detailed proposals in their policies on their website but at the same time to realize these fundamental changes to international rules and regulations you still need the support of larger actors within multilateral form and so Lois Young who's Belize's permanent representative to the UN explained it perfectly when she said we need to have some big voices stick up for us we need to have some big brothers big sisters we're not in the league of the big countries in these institutions we can do our best but we need some big advocates to speak up for us and so I think that we can see that you know the small island developing states cannot enact all these changes alone and so concerted and committed assistance from larger counterparts will remain essential for the fiscal position of these small states to be improved to enable them to recover from COVID-19 and to divert resources to essential security matters including the fight against climate change but so long as the largest and most wealthy powers continue to adopt protectionist and insular strategies like the ones that prevailed for much of 2020 you know we'll keep having workshops for ideas I also can put forward the best ideas and policy plans but we'll actually see little implementation and so I wanted to close with this statement that UN Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez shared at the Placencia Ambition Forum that I was talking about earlier where he said that the social and economic devastation caused by climate disruption will be many times greater than the current pandemic and now is not the time for retreat so that's really my push for this need for action and concerted assistance and not insular nationalism and protectionism and I'll leave it there and I'll open up to the discussions and to hear whether doctors can relate to this or whether I've academically got it all wrong. That was really great thank you very much that was a really really useful set of open reflections now what I'm going to do is I see we already got one question that's come in but I'm going to ask those of you who are in the audience to have a think about your questions and I will I'll start I'll start off the discussion maybe and ask a few questions and whilst whilst the panelists are reflexive on those please put any questions you have in the chat and then we'll share them with the panel so I wanted to just building on on your contributions so far there are a couple of things I'd be really interested to hear expanded on so I'll sort of I'll ask the questions to everybody in the group but feel free to chop and change and pick and choose which which ones you'd like to answer so the first one is a point that was brought up by I think both both Dr. Wharton and Dr. Sealy which it relates to relates to the kind of regional the regional institutions regional partners so so I'd be interested if if you'd be willing to expand a little bit on the function and scope of regional institutions in in the Caribbean and responding to the corona crisis so I'm interested also in in to some extent the intersection with some of the regional institutions like the Caribbean disaster emergency management agency where you know that they're related to these climate questions and I'm not sure if there's a kind of a clear answer I'm looking for but I'd be interested to know a little bit more about about I mean who you say you know that really there's there was no collective action to a great extent and that seems to be interesting that there wasn't a more of an overlap given the existence of these collective institutions and well were there any successes where you saw these regional actors or regional associations making making sort of interventions in the COVID space that's built on this relationship to climate so that's kind of one question I'd be I'd be interested in hearing a little more perhaps on it I guess the second question that that again is is I think important it came up in a couple of conversations which is to do with what kind of partners smaller states need to effectively respond both to things like COVID-19 the security implications and to the security implications of climate in this context I want to ask a more direct question which is to do with I guess rising powers or medium-sized or sort of states and that are they you know are they friends or foes of smaller states in the context of COVID and climate change obviously in relationship to climate change you know the countries like Brazil and India are large emitters they they've refused ambitious mitigation targets in the context of the UN COP discussions so you know they I'm wondering wondering of whether their relative power in this context has some implications for thinking about these questions of agency for smaller states in getting stepping into into the into the COP discussion and I guess that turns on to the third thing I'll be interested in hearing a bit more about which is this question of agency and what kind of positive agency smaller states on the receiving end of of greater crises that are likely to arise out of the climate crisis right so I mean COVID-19 is as as was said by many the palace day perhaps to some extent a temporary phenomenon it's huge and it's caused enormous impact but at some point we can expect it will it will pass even if it doesn't almost damage in the process but climate change will will be ongoing will likely get significantly more serious regardless of of our efforts to limit global temperature rise so I'm wondering if you would be willing to reflect a little more on what agency maybe the telecom a positive story I'm interested not not to tell a positive story I'm interested in where the spaces for agency might be and where we might think about the agency of smaller states in terms of climate justice and how they might influence these debates I'm going forward I think I'll I'll leave those to the panel and you can sort of respond as you will to those we also have a question directly to Dr Horton who's interested in how from Max Kindred who want to ask about how Jamaica is dealing with land clearing for agriculture especially on the hilly areas that lead to land erosion and is interested in legislation enforcement around these so let me now pass back to to the panel and and perhaps we should and we'll go in the same order we did with speaking starting with Dr Horton if that's all right okay thank you Max thanks for your question the question is about how is Jamaica dealing with the land with land and clear land clearing for agriculture especially on the hilly areas that leads to erosion and how does it deal with it in legislation and in real life with enforcement so that's a very good question as I mentioned in my presentation the Jamaican government has passed the protected errors act and has protected 15 areas that has been designated as special errors required for protection to preserve the species and biodiversity of the region in in those localities now as it relates to agriculture the the government is is is fully concerned aware that some farmers are using unsustainable practices slash unburned type agriculture farming practices however to mitigate that that situation the government has imposed what I mentioned earlier which is the effort at carbon fixing the planting of countries so all citizens and we have not such a huge population our population is 2.9 million people that's the population in Jamaica and all citizens can access countries to to plant as as a means of fixing the the the environment and not only that but also adding to to the situation where trees have been removed in an unsustainable sort of way so that is what is being done there's much more that needs to be done concerning enforcement and even with the act itself the the protected errors act and the government is aware of that and has indicated that it will be embarking on a public awareness campaign to sensitize individuals within the society concerning the importance of protecting the environment and specifically also of protecting the specially designed or designated errors the 15 errors that they have identified and so that that is where it is at concerning enforcement and the protection of efforts to to to carbon fix now uh in in part of the presentation I can't remember who but there was I think it was Hilary who mentioned about efforts to eliminate single use of plastic bags and and sort of styrofoam plastics and the government has embarked on that in fact I think we're leading in the Caribbean region where that is concerned where a ban has now been placed and citizens are not allowed to to use single single use plastic bags and use the styro styrofoam type plastics so that is also an effort that is is made by by the government and uh yeah so those are the the main ones know that the government is embarking on there's much more that needs to be done in terms of of enforcement but the national environmental protection agency is actively operating to ensure that um endangered species are are there's a protection of endangered species and is is monitoring all the efforts the developmental efforts that the country has embarked on concerning where where trees need to be removed to put up residential developments so all those are monitored there's a process involved in terms of they do the environmental assessments to determine whether or not those those developments are sustainable or whether or not buildings should be erected in certainly locations so there are efforts that needs that had been done but as Hilary mentioned and I think it was Simon talking about right to exist and also talking about the the importance of financing and also the importance of connecting what's it now public finance to stimulation packages and that's what is required now to ensure that we don't lose sight of this quest to preserve our climate and to secure our future because without and the the protection of the environment then we're all at risk well thank you very very much so Dr. Cili I'll post it to you next thanks Nicholas I was I was busy scribbling down notes trying to figure out well what is exactly that I want to say in response so again I'm going to be all over the place and Dr. Griffin your presentation was the only time I shook my head and you picked it up was when I was when you were saying Belize is the current chair of the Alliance of Small Island States, Antigone, Barbuda, Tupo were in January, Belize did an excellent job over the last two years thank you for mentioning the people's sense here ambition forum and now we're in the in the competent hands of Antigone, Barbuda for the for the next two years. I actually have the role of and thank you to Antigone, Barbuda for asking me to take over the role of the lead coordinator for for mitigation so that will be what I'm doing. Nicholas I'm going to get in trouble with my masters my political masters if I if I if I don't say that yes some reusable institutions did work or on our work and under under the COVID situation. For example our Caribbean public health agency has been used by all of the islands for for testing for those that don't have the actual kids and can identify variants. CARFA has stepped in there of course we have the regional security system the RSS that's that's been still removing essential goods and services and people around the region. Our own institution University of the West Indies I will get shocked if I if I don't mention that that we've provided as much as we can in terms of helping with capacity or epidemiologists have been working with with the governments to develop contact tracing methods etc or students in Barbados were involved in a house-to-house survey recently where they they went through the entire island in the space of two weeks trying to determine those who would potentially have COVID. Then Nicholas you asked about what type of partners do we need to to to move forward and it really struck me more all former prime minister of the Arnold L. Wilton barrel he had a he had a phrase for our foreign policy he said friends of all satellites of man and that that has become or or mantra at least from Barbados and I would say for the for the for the Caribbean as as well so we recognize we're small we recognize that we have no big stick that we can wave and we can't nuke anybody if they if they if if we don't like them but we are sovereign states we are proud nations and we're not going to let anyone trample all over us uh Simon you mentioned Copenhagen and that brings back memories my my first cop was in 2007 and then I first attended them all uh since then and I remember in in the whole in Copenhagen there was this big globe of the world but Barbados wasn't on it Jamaica wasn't on it the boat the globe wasn't big enough to show the small islands and every day I would walk past and I would look at that globe they said oh my gosh and then when I'm facing our developed country partner negotiators I realized that for some of them yes small islands are be are dispensable if it comes to to your economic decline versus my existence you will choose not to have the economic decline because we're dispensable it doesn't matter what we've brought to the culture of the world in terms of our music or sport or sports or writing nothing you asked me this the population of Barbados I tell you 280 000 people and immediately you shut down you're dispensable we will find you a small piece of land in a marshlands or everglades somewhere I will put you there so I negotiate on that in that context recognizing that the person in front of me doesn't really care if I exist or not so you ask me how to be moved forward about agency small islands will always be the conscience of the convention we are not going to give up we will not go slowly and silently into the night that's not the role that we will play no we will kick and we will fight and we will take every success and we will build from there and we will move forward notice the word two degrees was not mentioned in the last hour and 15 minutes we talked about 1.5 we're already at 1.25 but we've talked about 1.5 two degrees is off the table that's one small moral victory that that we've taken now my role as the as the lead negotiator for mitigation and I've been instructed to do so by the chair of AOSIS is to come up with a plan as to how do we deal with all the emitters not only the traditional historical emitters and I'm not talking about not stopping about lame blame there's a lot of blame still to be talked about I'm ready to talk about loss and damage we couldn't get the words liability or compensation into the Paris agreement could not that's something that we haven't given up that fight either when you talk about climate justice it just means we have to move to another front it can be within the UNFCCC all right fine but how do we engage with the with Brazil how do we engage with India how do we engage with China recognizing that a Tennessee O2 is a Tennessee O2 it is not a where it's coming from now I'm not going to talk about our strategy in front of everyone I'm saying that we're thinking about it and we need to know how to engage and perhaps the mantra friends of all satellites of man will guide us as to how we move forward thanks thank you very much that's really fascinating thank you Simon thank you again there's just so much to say I don't even know where to start I guess I'll start with with understanding what these actors bring to the table in terms of how they can act in in the in the negotiations so in my work with the Africa group we're looking at the studying the Africa group what I said what I noticed is the change since COP 12 in Nairobi on how the Africa group kind of works within the negotiations and what they do bring to the table is what they have is a certain moral legitimacy Dr. Sealy talked about the fact that they're the island states are the heart and the conscience of the of the negotiations and I'm fully on board that and I think what we have here is that you have a set of countries whether you're talking about the Africa group or you're talking about Oasis or the other all of these other kind of groups of negotiators that can that are not historically responsible and also that they just have nothing to cut so if you have the what they bring to the table with you cannot if you cannot finance other countries and you cannot and then you have no emissions to really to really cut then then you need to bring something else and that is this kind of moral legitimacy if you will in terms of the groups but within that for example the disparity between African states for example just because you have one group they're coming to the table there's strength in numbers they can talk on behalf of 54 countries 1.2 billion people but within the group itself then you see divides and within it because what finance means something different to Ethiopia than it does to Botswana for example and we witnessed this but they do come to the table with that one voice so in terms of how and who they can work with again I guess the Dr. Sealy said this already but the some of the loudest voices in the room are Tuvalu are the Maldives they're the ones that are shouting from the rooftops in these negotiations and it's really important to like to to note that but in terms of how to work with other with other larger larger than these new larger emitting countries like Brazil and China I guess they that you need to come with well I don't have an answer for that actually you need to come to the negotiating table within those smaller those smaller groups to understand what's important for for those within the Africa group for example the Seychelles Mauritius they're more aligned to Asis than they are to the Africa group or Egypt would be more aligned to the Arab group then and their reason that the Africa group in the beginning started to to get to gain more power is there became divisions within the group of 77 plus China where they started to differ in their approach to the negotiations there there is scope in terms of moving forward in terms of in the lead up to Paris I was a I was a an advisor to the Nordic Council and the Nordic Council five countries the reason those are five relatively small but rich countries they were convinced they didn't know how to work with the Africa group they they were used to working they were used to being seen as these clean green countries which of course they're not in the negotiations right so they were and all of a sudden the Africa group was pointing fingers at them and saying no no you're not doing what you said you're supposed to do where's this hundred billion that were that that is supposed to be in the pots for example but and then they because they were they were determined that the Paris Agreement was going to be a success or at least was going to come out in 2015 and there was this underlying they were convinced that if it was going to be a country throwing the Paris Agreement under robust it was going to come from the African countries so that's where they they they literally hired people to write reports to figure out how to go into the negotiations and how to to negotiate with certain certain of these groups so there is scope there and there's a there's there is scope i'm not unhopeful uh on on how governments negotiate together i'm just i guess i'm still a bit pessimistic if we're talking in brazil and india in in the negotiations and on what they're just such big powers compared to to the small island states for example i'll leave it there thank you very much uh i'm just to need it that's great i'm hillary go ahead that's perfect thanks thanks very much and uh and dr cili you absolutely caught me my Freudian slip where i meant to say the chair of a osis at the time and uh and then slip but of course we know um anti-guamparabuda have taken over and it's important to note as well that they've just that the chair has actually written to president biden is calling for assistance on uh on these issues which shows one of the strategies perhaps smaller actors can employ in trying to bring uh these larger backers onside and i'm going to um tackle your question nick about agency the final question you asked because i think that's the one i can speak to to build on these themes and i definitely don't want my remarks to come across as those small states have no agency especially when it comes to global problems if we look at uh the un convention on the law of the sea for instance um this this was really born out of in the 1962 when malta's ambassador to the un arvid pardo um went to the un and said we need to designate the seabed as uh what he called common heritage of mankind really born out of the recognition that developed states were always going to take these resources at the expense of developing countries and that kickstart you know he fed into the mood of the time the the concerns of the non-aligned movement pushing for a new international economic order a more distributive justice and so on but but it took off they built a coalition and eventually kicked and kickstarted the process that led to the law of the sea and a few years later in the 1980s again on the on the advice of judge a third who is um currently judge of the internet the tribunal for the um the law of the sea but was a founding uh contributor to aiosis and it's in its origins as well so showing a nice circle here and he said we also need to designate weather as a common heritage and actually malta's ambassador to the un on the basis of this went and said and kickstarted the process that led to the Kyoto protocol and things that we know today on climate legislation so these came from small a small country trying to be as malta's ambassador to the un at the time uh tabona said the the conscience of mankind and i think this feeds into but what both dr sealy was saying earlier and also simon about um climate justice as well as to the role that smaller states complain in this moral component as simon put it really effectively and so so when you march the coalitions you effectively and feed into the mood of the time that you can generate change so you it's not that small states cannot do anything whatsoever and own our only price takers but it is it is challenging and so we even have something like and simon was talking about sea level rise earlier you know we have the UN convention on the law of the sea but it was signed before sea level rise was recognized as a problem so now many small islands risk losing their eez because the the law has no uh has no way to compensate for this so they're pushing for recognition of permanent eez without loss of jurisdiction at the un and so we need bigger actors to support this and if they don't want to do it for moral reasons one way to do it is say in realist terms if you don't support this there's nothing to stop your your competitors you know feeding into this US-China strategic competition side not recognizing these areas coming in fishing mining and so on and so maybe one way is to play into their realist concerns even if they think that these small islands are dispensable as uh Dr. C. Lee put it and I'm the last point I'll make about agency is also to say that uh COVID really showed that in comparison to the nationalistic and insider approaches taken by many large countries and small states are willing to take action Singapore and New Zealand had released a joint declaration where they actually pledged to remove tariffs for essential goods and to open trade and supply chains and a number of small states joined this from Brunei to Laos to Uruguay even Little Nauru and they all said that they were going to come together and keep trade routes open for health and commodities and services and so even though this was borne out of necessity because they small states need to trade you know it showed their willingness to act and to collaborate even when leadership wasn't forthcoming from the US and China and so I think they are willing to take agency the only problem is when it's a global problem that they cannot solve only by themselves we need to get larger actors on site and that's where there is a certain degree of limitation to that agency thank you that was really really so interesting go on um Dr Sealy your hands up go for it well I just wanted to jump back in on that last point on the on the agency that that Dr Brithil was mentioned I thought for a lot of small islands um adaptation is the priority yes and a lot of our developed country partners consider adaptation to be a priority I share that with you yes but I also think that we can't adapt to a three degree world so prevention is always better than the cure now would you lend me money to mitigate my emissions in in Barbados you probably think it's not a great priority or total emissions are two million tons per year so two million tons and the whole world emits about 50 gigatons so you can do your do work on your percentages and we can stop emitting everything and we won't have much for the impact on the globalist situation but what it will do is it will create the fiscal space to allow us to invest in resilience in other words if you're a small open economy that's important fossil fuels and you can replace those fossil fuels but in addition to renewable energy sources then it's not a climate change issue for us it's an economic issue to be carbonized and decarbonized quickly but to do so we need access to capital and and cheap capital because going through renewable energy burns capital and so and so the cost of the capital almost defines all 50 percent of the of the uh of the feasibility of the of the project so I just wanted a point of my agency standpoint Barbados is is is not unique but in a special situation where we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world so although we're 280 000 people we are essentially a small city and we intend to completely decarbonize our economy by 2010 let me repeat that completely decarbonize our economy electricity sector and transport sector by 2030 and you all can see well that's pie in the sky because we're small we don't have the inertia you have because we're small we don't have the stranded assets that you're going to have so we can do it and we can do it quickly and we can show the rest of the world how it can be done how you can get high penetration rates of intermittent sources of energy like solar and wind with today's technology with high energy storage with batteries that said I don't want to get too technical but when we talk about agency it's not only on the moral side in the context of climate change there are no developed countries and developing countries in the context of climate change there are only wrongly developed countries and developing countries that have to learn from the mistakes that others have made so there is no there is no model out there for me to follow to say yes this is the sustained development path me when it comes to to to climate change and being and being resilient and being low carbon but we can do it we and Barbados can do it we we have the ability to do it and we will show the rest of the world how to move forward thanks that's a very elegant argument and an important one I think we have a few questions coming in I'm going to kind of synthesize them into I think what the two points are so I think I think because they they bear upon some of the things we've already been speaking about so the first the first one is to do with what needs to be there to ensure that COP delegates can can get to COP and and and have these conversations and so that Matt's kinder is asking about sort of vaccination and so on but I guess it's this broader question of what can or should be done in the context of your understanding to make sure that climate negotiations can continue in the current situations and I guess is this to some extent a question of will or or or maybe there are technical things that being done could they be could it be done remotely I mean I don't this is kind of questions and I'd be interested in in hearing answers about them to synthesize the other two questions I think they pertain more to the question of adaptation and building resilience so obviously money is always the issue in this context but what else on top of money is there what other kinds of support and and and action need to be taken so in particular Amy's asking about the role of security actors in relationship to climate change in the context of the UK's MOD's recent report to ask the question of you know I guess what what actual security actors could be doing in the context I guess of climate change more broadly but perhaps we could speak in relationship to covered as well and maybe if there are any intersections between those two also I'm and so is that you feel do you feel comfortable I feel you're always starting first which is terribly unfair if you're the first speaker so maybe we should reverse the order so you get a few minutes to think before you have to give your answer Simon did you feel like um do you feel like you could you come in and have a have a thought maybe particularly on what what needs to be there to make the discussions around and cop um happen did you address that to me yes yeah yeah so I mean do you think like uh are there yeah are there are there um well is it would it be possible to run it remotely under covered um or are there concrete things that could be done to make it more viable um remotely once again if it's done remotely I mean we've seen other things been done remotely but the problem with that is immediately you have what about those countries that have low connectivity what are those funds that what about those participants that are not going to be able to participate because they cannot connect properly um and and then it goes back to representation where you see the highly connected countries are the ones that are there and the ones that are negotiating um I think what needs to happen is uh apart from what needs to happen is we need a worldwide global vaccine rollout so that people from all over the from all different ends of the globe are vaccinated if we're going to start traveling around again uh and if who knows how many people will go to to cop uh 26 but the smallest cop I've ever been to and I've been to eight of them was 20 000 people so it's there there's a lot of actors that are that are participating um but saying that I mean if we're just to let to have some sort of positive or if we're going to look at COVID-19 I think one thing one thing and climate change is one thing here is that we've seen with granted various degrees of success governments address a crisis on very quickly um again varying degrees of success but at least we've seen we've seen that argument that that that uh that countries have been making that we need to uh we're not going to stop using fossil fuels tomorrow we're going to we need we need a plan for 2050 I've even heard 2100 um that's that's no longer a viable argument as far as I'm concerned and then and the fact that we have lots of renewables out there as well that are cheaper than they've ever been they've ever been and so back to Dr uh Celie's point earlier about using this idea that we can we have we can look forward and we can build resilience the problem with climate change the problem with the world we live in is we we we base our our ideas on building for the future based on the past but we can't do that anymore we have to build on the future predicting what's going to happen because of climate change so if the idea that if we can do anything is take from COVID-19 this is a learnable moment a teachable moment where we don't build back we don't go to the business as usual model that everyone's desperate to go back to we build forward as uh I think it was Dr. Celie someone said we need to build forward we need to think forward and this is where and I completely agree the small island state like Barbados could be could be a trailblazer here but if in terms of uh Tammy's question in the chat about security actors and uh what this needs what needs to happen is these adaptive capacity problems need to be need to be need to be need to be dealt with so there needs to be that those projects in place in order for that to happen thank you very much I think I'm we're going to mix up the order completely so I'm going to go to to Hilary next and then and then to um to set them to set them into Hugh Hugh finally so go on Hilary thanks I think I can keep my answer quite quite sure it on this because I know the question was asking about something practical like like getting vaccinated for for cup but I think the more important thing is this willingness and and this sense of commitment to undertaking the necessary reforms and and things that need to take place because we have the ideas we have the policy proposals like Aeosis have put forward you know whole reports we are which are not just outlining the problem they're literally listing these are the solutions but unless there is a willingness to implement these these changes you know they're we're going to keep keep having conversations like a like the ones that cup and then have people come back and say oh we didn't we didn't actually need our targets or we're we're unwilling to put in the the changes that that are necessary and a lot of that comes from uh you know as Dr. Celia was saying thinking about countries in in the individual and and that others are dispensable as long as it's not affecting um you know your own your own um your own situation but I think a problem like COVID has shown us that you were not secure until everyone is secure and we we need to find a way to light that same fire under the COVID challenge and to take um and to improve things like you know best practices and because there's another question in the chat about you know is it just finances that we should be giving well there's also the capital of knowledge and information and and here somewhere where um I put in the chat off the back of what Dr. Celia was saying about flexibility that small states can often be laboratories of innovation you can test something much quicker and at smaller scale and then if it works scale it up and I'm actually on the ambassador program for a group called island innovation which is connecting islands from all over the world to share sustainability um practices and knowledge so that um to actually implement things in so in local society that can can be shared across different regions so we need more of that as well because we we tend to you know talk a lot about the economic factors and so on but underplay the the knowledge capital as well in in doing a lot of this so I think more willingness to collect a willingness to implement change and the willingness to share and value knowledge capital as well perhaps would be my contributions on that. Thank you very much um Hilary I'll pass it to Dr. Houghton and then and then and then I'm finally going to Cilly go. Thank you so and so the question about part 26 what can be done when you're negotiating and when you're negotiating something as complex as climate security targets there's just something that is different a different sort of synergy that comes out when you have a more face-to-face interaction I think the possibility exists for despite the challenges for it to be done remotely but I think we would lose that synergy if it is done remotely and is not done in a face-to-face modality so my recommendation as much as is possible to see how best it could be executed using a face-to-face mode we still have a lot of time I think November is still a couple months many months away we're not sure what will happen but in the absence of that states are moving towards mass vaccination now there is much talk about having immunity passports as a means for a stamp of approval for global travel and I think that's the way that states should be going immunizing or doing COVID-19 vaccination of its populace and once that happens then persons will be able to travel and COVID COP26 might be able to to happen face-to-face concerning the other and I know there are issues about vaccine diplomacy which was brought up earlier about the access to vaccines and how disproportionate the system is for small developing countries but we are hoping that those issues will be overcome in the upcoming future for Jamaica for instance we have received 50,000 doses of vaccines from India and PAHO has mentioned that 28.7 million doses of vaccines will be given to Jamaica by May of this year so we are hoping that and I think this is just one one example of one country but I think other countries are making taking the steps necessary to have their populations the vaccination being given to their populations concerning the second question about security actors and what can be done to address issues of migration and climate related conflicts I don't think that we should leave this just to security actors this is everybody's business and we need to build resilience across the board governments need to build resilience to deal with the impacts of climate change law enforcers have to improve their capacities to deal with issues that will emerge climate related issues as I mentioned in my presentation climate change is really a threat multiplier so there will be increases in transnational organized crimes law enforcers and security actors have to build their resilience to deal with those issues but we also have to get everybody on board a private sector it's an important component in terms of of how they conduct their production processes we have to encourage them to use more sustainable means of producing their products and selling their services and importantly we have to get the women on board get the females involved energize them sensitize them about the issues concerning climate change and have them contribute as well as our mainly civil society groups they also need to come on board so it's about building resilience across the board to deal with this huge existential threat of climate change that is facing us at this particular time so that that's the way forward I think thank you very much and that's indeed it's important it's the kind of question of civil society actors we actually haven't spoken about so much but I think I'm going to pass on to Dr Huseley and I think you're going to have the last word Dr Huseley because I think we've already run over the length of time I said this webinar would go on for so thank you all for sticking around but I think Dr Huseley please take the last word and then I'll thank you. Well thanks Nicholas and I am conscious that that we we've had some patient participants and and we've gone on for quite a while so I'll try to be as sync as I can the first question on the sharing of the of the vaccines yes I suspect that all delegates if we get to Glasgow in November will be vaccinated I haven't gotten my vaccine yet if I if I would love to get the J&J because there's only one one one shot anyone with the J&J vaccine you know they're going to send my way let me know but we'll take any we'll take the Chinese and take the Russian we'll take the Indian whatever just get us vaccinated and we'll get and get us there why because it's terribly important to move forward the agenda the agenda is now getting blocked within the UNFCCC if we get to COP26 it's going to deal with four sorry four subsidiary body agendas the two the two that we lost last year the two that we're going to have this year if if it if it's not held this year and it pushes into the spring you're going to have a jurisdictional fight between the UK and Africa as to who holds the next the next COP and that that could push a whole bunch of tying down down the road so it's it's it's important that we do meet but I want to also address the question in the context of the last two and that is the fight is not only at the COP the fight's not only at the UNFCCC matter of fact most of the bottles are one outside of that UNFCCC process Paris was a success because and I and I know I oversimplified the Paris was a success because the US and China had already decided what they were going to do before they came into the room sorry UK you would play the minor role sorry EU you played a very minor role it was the two big elephants in the room that had to decide all right so we haven't spoken about the US the US is back in play and so I am hoping fingers crossed that the US and China are sitting down in a little small area somewhere if they want to use Barbados as a place to come and talk you will welcome you here very discreetly come have a chat sort things out because that's not the UNFCCC what I'm trying to make the point is is that COP26S is important yes we have to move forward yes we can get vaccinated the remoteness of the issue is a real problem for small islands not only our connectivity like Simon said but we're all over the world we've got three states three regions we've got we've got the Caribbean the Pacific and and South China seas so how how are we going to communicate on on communicating and get back to capital on real issues when we're in a different time zone so there's there's a real logistical problem for for small islands to be represented at COP26 and that's where I'm torn on this but we really really need to move forward as well last point outside of the UNFCCC about the security actors and everything else my belief is that as AOSIS as the last small analysis we have to broaden the fight we have to fight different fronts to fight on besides the UNFCCC so yes this is a security issue it's an incident the Grenadines is now a member of the Security Council the UN Security Council go fight it there this is a human rights issue let's fight it within the UNHCR and let's find every single area where we can find I've told our Minister of Foreign Affairs anytime you meet with with another state think kind of change because in the long term it doesn't matter what trade deal short term trade deal that they're interested in entering into into if they're continuing to emit they're they're saying you don't have the right to exist bear that in mind when when when you're doing with the foreign policy so last comment yes is it is a security issue yes we're going to fight the battle on at least we should fight the battle on all fronts COP26 is really really really important to move forward by what I would rather postpone the COP that have a that have a bad COP with bad decisions because there was there was poor representation there as well thanks because really really appreciated the opportunity to to be here today I think it has been it has been um School of Security study is absolutely pleasure to host to host you also I basically for me I thank you so much to Dr. Horton, Dr. Sealy, Dr. Jinyee and Dr. Breffer it's been a really fascinating discussion and I'll send my thanks again by email and thank you so much for contributing and talking to us and I thank you also for having this really inspiring discussion that I hope is going to spark an enormous amount of interest in those listening but also I hope can can move forward in other ways as well so thank you very much indeed um I really appreciate your time this evening and sorry for keeping you longer than I said I would um but it was too interesting to end quickly so thank you very much goodbye have a lovely evening or actually rest your day um over in over in Barbados in Jamaica bye thank you thank you enjoy your lunch yes we'll do