 All right. Good morning, everyone Rob Sidor and Jeremy Davis here again and this morning We've been fortunate enough to get folks to join us about podman desktop and simplifying doing container Development and how would we use that to move to Kubernetes? Jeremy you're still with us I am streaming from the Red Hat office, so this is not my home internet But uh, yeah, sorry that froze. So yeah, this is very cool stuff. I love Docker. I have loved Docker for a long time and Dr. Desktop and so podman was a really welcome So I'm really looking forward to what you guys are going to share today So why don't we introduce everyone Maureen you want to introduce yourself a little bit? Hi, sure. Yeah, I'm a long-term Red Hatter. My name is Maureen Duffy. I'm a UX designer and I actually work on the podman desktop UI Do you want to go next Tim? Yeah, sure. I just went full screen to the button move unmute. Hi, I'm Tim DeBoer. I'm a developer experience architect and Yeah, I work with a number of teams, but primarily podman desktop I'm just trying to improve the user experience and the Jeff So I'm I'm working for that for several years now I use for the I'm working for the developer tools business unit and I'm the engineering manager for the Podman desktop team. So working for a few months now on podman desktop No, that's great that also means we can't say anything bad about management like we usually do here, right Jeremy So we'll be careful this morning So Maureen tell us Why podman desktop and and how did we get there because I'm a big proponent and user, but I Also come from like Jeremy a developer background where I was using You know Docker desktop And I'm on a Mac. So I think Jeremy is too Tells, you know, how did we get here and and what can we get out of this? Sure, so I could say because I actually report in the The red hats red hat enterprise Linux broad team And that's the team that the podman desktop team is under the pod man team is under so For a long time actually We had users of pod man who who liked the pod man approach to containerization There's a few things that are different about how pod man works. It is not Damon based It it's based on system D So like it'll launch when it needed, but it's not always running in the background, you know eating up ram and whatnot It also it tends to be Security first focused so it's compatible with ST Linux and security technologies And so we we have a pretty good user base, but they were coming from, you know The old-school Linux background not necessarily Mac and Windows users and just as a UX practitioner I can say that because Mac OS and Windows for the most part are very visual Operating systems people don't tend to go in the command line unless you're a developer, of course But they don't tend to use the command line so much They're used to doing things on UIs and pod man didn't have a UI and There were a bunch of requests and I think probably Tim or Jeff would even be more familiar with sort of the The origin of the pod man desktop project, but I remember when before prod man desktop started The the pod man team had asked me to like mock up some kind of little UI So at least people could get a visual of what containers were running on their system without having to go to the terminal So the project just sort of organically grew from wanting to have a graphical Interface for pod man itself and then the other thing is the premise of pod man It's named pod man because the construct is pods, which is the same as in Kubernetes So we really wanted to be Sort of like on the path of going to Kubernetes and be focused on pods Using QBM all to deploy pods. So that's sort of maybe a difference. I don't know if it's like Right now, but certainly a difference in early philosophy of where the direction we were trying to take the project I don't know Tim or Jeff if you have another perspective, but that's my view Yeah, sure So we started talking about this already. I think more than two years ago now And you know a few of the discussions at that point, you know, everyone was starting to use containers on the desktop You know containers had had taken over but people were running containers in a Docker maybe doing compose because they were starting to get more than one container on Whatever project they were working on and then they were going into production on OpenShift or you know another Kubernetes environment with a completely different setup So you have this disconnect, you know, not just the it works on my machine, but you know fundamental concepts between You know compose and Kubernetes. There's some differences there And pod man around that time was starting to be a real option on Windows and Mac We wanted to you know, not just You know, hey, it also works on Windows Mac But we wanted a UI for it to make it more accessible to a wider audience. We want to make the install flows easier And then as as most said the transition from you know individual containers or maybe Compose to pods to Kubernetes, you know, that's not a They're like completely fundamentally different things. It's an evolution. There are some You know Benefits and differences, but we want to make it easy to go from, you know individual containers to pods to Kubernetes So yeah, we started down this path and then of course Also with Docker starting to change the way that they distribute, you know, that was another You know kind of added benefit people are looking for other options and pod man is an excellent Well, I for one I have a I've had the opportunity to work with a couple of customers that They told me, you know a while ago that one of the reasons they hadn't adopted pod man yet even though it was on realm was because they were using Docker and Docker desktop was part of their development experience and When pod man desktop came out It actually was instrumental in helping them move because they really wanted pod man and the security and all the features of pod man And wanted to replace Docker on their rel because of those But they felt that the handicap of not having that on the desktop as part of the developer experience was holding them back And now they're all bought in on it. So You know, have you had you know from a customer feedback perspective your Tim You're talking about user experience, you know, well What were some of the challenges that you saw when you wanted to move, you know people over because pod man isn't exactly the same as As Docker, but it adds a lot of key advantages there, especially around security and other other features Yeah, so there's so many ways I could take that I guess first we're not trying to be like a Docker replacement although pod man has You know tried very hard to make sure that the same commands work that things are compatible You know that you get the same Experience if you're you know just doing images containers on your desktop For me, it's much more about the you know the movement between environments Do you have, you know Docker or pod man on your local machine? You have kind mini cube Going remotely and other Kubernetes flavor open-shift Being able to kind of seamlessly go, you know between those environments or take what's working in compose locally Or pods locally, you know change it And move that to Kubernetes So for me, it's much more about the the flow and having Fidelity between those I think I would also add something if that's okay I have to say this being a very pro open source upstream contributor to many upstream projects One of the the things about pod man desktop is it is an open source project the actual user interface is open source and We take a very open approach to what we allow say extensions to do within the interface Other software might not be as open about for example like adding an action to the actions Menu of containers it it doesn't allow sort of the deep integration that we allow Being an open source project gives us the ability to have discussions with other other contributors We we have some strong contributions from folks outside of our team at Red Hat who are contributing you know, for example the mini cube and I Think the Lima extension correct me if I'm wrong, but I knew the mini cube extension is being developed by a community contributor and Just generally at Red Hat. We feel that doing things in the open upstream in an open source community is the right way to build software And that's kind of an important thing about potman desktop Yeah, I think that is a fundamental and important difference. I mean pod man is our namesake It is open But this was never about just doing local containers. It was always, you know moving between the Environments supporting kubernetes different flavors and you know, we have seen several contributions from from, you know other contributors non red hat contributors on those So we've got a couple of We have a couple of questions from people and I know like and you guys want to do a demo as well We just want to jump into the maybe let's hold the questions kind of till the end It's not going to play. You guys want to do a demo here? Yes, and jump in I don't know if I'm totally set up and I haven't shared on this platform. He's on you on a Yeah, nothing like it, you know, putting you on the flat, right? So Yes, so some of the questions we had we'll take questions and so so Vishwanath mentioned that he couldn't get his containers running in the background So he said he likes the philosophy of pop man being daemonless, but he wanted to run containers in the background To be honest, I don't see why it won't be possible. I think it's it's going to be Disconnecting from the fact that the pod man is not a daemon So it should be possible that you run You run a container as a daemon and it will it will run in the background So I don't see why it's not possible Okay Yeah, also join with what community where's the community? Where's the where's the form going to the form or anything? You guys want to get involved and ask questions How do you guys usually interact community? Yeah, I think if people just go to pod man desktop pod man dash desktop.io We've got all the links from there and we're on discord. There's get-up discussions issues Or there's a link. Yeah, I'll dump the link in there All right We're gonna run through your demo right now and we'll come back to questions after after we take a look at And an action So I thought I would just walk through the UI trying to show some of the features and then do quick They're running a pod and deploying it to To the developer sandbox So this is pod man desktop You know all of the standard things for images and containers are here. You can go see a list of your images volumes Pods and containers you can click on anything to get to the details, you know, and then depending on what you're clicking on You get different tabs summary of each logs We've tried to make the Kubernetes YAML very accessible So you can click on any object see the kubi animal copy and paste that if you want to In the settings I'll just drop to extensions for a minute So I've installed there's several extensions that come pre-installed obviously pod man doctor support We've support for Lima and mini kube Open-shift local and red hat developer sandbox and you can install those very easy Tim I'm not trying to Rain on your parade, but the can you increase the size of your screen maybe a little bit? Which the size of the window or text oh Sorry, I good enough Just replying to the folks that are online. That's all Said it was a little blurry. Maybe just a little bigger Great, thank you. So I've got 4k monitor and a 1080p the 1080p because it looks big to me. Oh, and you're getting 720p through the okay Okay So on the in the settings on the resources page Is where you can you know create new pod man machines or other environments? So a pod man There's another difference from talker. You can create multiple machines only start one of them at a time But it gives you a way to have like different projects and shut down all of those containers Start a new machine So I have four of them and I'm running this one now And as you saw, you know, these are the images in that container Sorry in that pod man machine. These are the containers and it's showing what's running So I actually left this pot around I'm just going to delete up And loaded way too many containers now. I forget what was in there So I can see pod man stuff in there, but if I'm running Docker also I can see Docker Containers that are in there also Yeah Now what if I'm running I mean a lot of developers including myself had used Docker compose Can I see stuff that's in there for that? Yeah, so I actually have a compose container or compose running at the at the bottom here. Okay, that's the compose group I've Did pod man compose up from the command line half an hour ago and then I stopped it from here But you can start and stop it Once you've created it cool And do you prefer like for your preferred workflow do you like doing Compose and then you push everything to kube later or do you like running kube locally like using mini kube? For me I run kube locally or deploy to developer sandbox I Just you know, I I know there are millions of compose projects out there You need to have that it's table stakes People and if people are doing just standalone containers or compose. That's fine. You know, we Definitely support that workflow So another thing I do Tim is I always have a I'm running rel on or fedora on a parallels instance on my Mac because I push everything over there when I'm done working out locally I can I can view all that remote stuff too, right? No I See Jeff shaking his head. No, no So today we are we are supporting only pod man machines that are running real locally on your Okay But it's on the roadmap If you'd like to connect to remote ones, then we'd love to learn more about your use case Awesome. I'll throw some zingers in there later, Marie Just as a developer I I I tend to do my local Development with the desktop environment, but if I'm generating, you know, say Kubernetes stuff I don't like even though I used to run mini cube all the time locally. I now run Something Remotely and I want to push it over there Kind of experience just to see and because I do edge development. I want to push stuff to pod man remotely And my first test is can I do it with just a VM on my machine? Yeah, and I actually that's a use case. I would love to support at some point too. Cool Remote environment and Yeah, push containers cool Sorry, we were interrupting you. You were going for it. So Flustered and I couldn't remember where If you leave any if you leave any empty space here, we'll fill it within in chatter. So I'm just Yeah, that's fine, and I I found them. I have these two containers here. I'm actually gonna Um, there's two containers to turn it into a pod. It's really easy. You just click on the potify button We can give it a name I Don't know my pod 9 just to show I'm changing the name and click create pod And you'll see it up here. It's here and It's running so This pod has those two containers in it And you can see it's running on 8088 And somewhere back here I left a web browser And there's my I should have done the thing and open the web browser and prove it wasn't there first but this is the pod we just created it's running and I refresh it and I get the The counter increasing I also have an open shift instance. This is redhead developer sandbox I created an instance an hour ago and Just went through to connect podman desktop to it But we can go back to our pods view Find that pod again And I guess sorry I should show there is nothing running here, right? I'm looking at the topology view There's nothing on the sandbox I'm gonna go back to podman desktop Just say deploy to kube We'll leave it as my pod 9 And it's gonna connect to my sandbox So we just leave that for a minute it's deploying that pod and It's already running And of course it opened in another other monitor So you generated the code for deploying it to Kubernetes and pushed it there Yeah, so I mean just creating the pod out of it has sorry I can go back To show that too Just by creating the pod Right. I've effectively just deployed this YAML to podman and then when I'm going to The developer sandbox is just pushing that YAML over standing up the same pod there So you can see it's been deployed And Actually, sorry, that's a little close. Let's open up the one that's running demo gods, of course I want to go back to the link here, but it's not Yeah Jeff, did we add a link here to it? I'm pretty sure I could check the box to create an ingress Yeah, sorry, I I'm not very good at talking and demoing at the same time, okay We didn't have a couple questions on oh, I'm sorry, Mary Oh, I was gonna say I do have a little demo to I'm not familiar with this platform and I use Linux So it I might not get to do screen share, but if it works I can show one of the new features that came out in podman 1.5, which Jim is also Running that just came out last week. It's an onboarding flow for setting up compose if if folks wanted to see that I Think that'd be great Yeah, we can do Yeah, we do a lot of stuff with compose so that that would be great and what while you're doing that marine There's a couple questions about you know, where can we go to get this? I know on a Mac So I have a fedora machine behind me, which is you know kind of brainless I just do a DNF install and I get everything but on a Mac I just use brew and I'm not familiar with Windows. So Is is that like in chocolatey or is there where would I go to get? The install for both podman and podman desktop for Windows To yeah, we I mean, maybe you can just open up the website And we can look at the options Okay Okay, so Downloads and there was some questions about Tutorials and things of that nature. I did paste a link to the podman Dan's podman book in there Maybe I'll paste it again later, but you know other kind of basic tutorials like setting it up and stuff I know again setting it up on a Mac is and Linux is a kind of Brainless, but because it's so easy, but I just don't know anything about Windows. Oh Chocolatey win get is that the is that the native one? The win get thing. Yes Never heard of scoop. Okay So wherever your desktop applications are sold you can obtain podman desktop for Windows Maybe you can go look at the Mac and Linux too, but we've tried to basically be an all the normal package manager Options for each platform in Linux we do flat pack and we also have a tar And Mac is brew and something else I didn't catch the last thing you said This game much the image. Oh gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I only use brew because it just gives me the automatic updates Yeah, the first thing it's when I first downloaded I'm into my like my first impression was like this is a really nice UI Like the babysit this looks really really nice, which being a red hat employee I think I can kind of poke fun at red hats UI over the years a Lot of our UI's aren't necessarily the best. I was like really pleasantly surprised like wow This is really easy to use and really nice and laid out. It's great That's what happens when you have it you next person Yeah, so I Hope you guys can hear me okay, too Because I know like the network is not doing great right now on my system But just holler if I break up, but I just wanted to demo real quick this new onboarding feature We have for compose we also have a new onboarding feature for podman But I'm running Linux and podman's part of the system like the bare metal OS So it doesn't work on Linux because you already have it, but I'm gonna click here to set up compose it's looking to see if I have the compose client installed and I don't and and Just just as you know to level set This lets you download the compose client and set it up It doesn't like we don't have a UI way of running composers yet So basically it will set the client up for you and when you go to the command line and you run your compose command Then your composers will show up in podman desktop But I just go through here You're breaking up for me your audio is a little choppy, but I get your screen resolution is really good, so How many syllables? Could you at least see the screen? We can hear you find now. Yeah. Oh, okay. Did you see the screen? I was just going through it Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah Yeah, visual looks great There was a question in the chat. Yeah, podman compose works with dr. Compose files You know once you've gone through and installed this you can just do podman compose up, you know, just as you would Let me see if I can do that real quick Thank God somebody who uses ESH besides myself. Okay, I Haven't actually tried this by the way before so I don't know if it's gonna work That's exactly what I did this morning to get the compose file to show up on my list and then you know I could start and stop from within podman desktop Okay, sorry bad demo Nevermind should work My machine is not happy right now. So it could be related. I'm not sure I'll go to bug it I'm gonna turn off screen share and try to figure out what's going on But the idea is that I can do a drop-in for a compose file. Is that the Yes, and it normally works It normally works. I have a lot of moving parts on my system yeah, because We do a lot of compose and I think our a lot of customers do too. I think that's probably the number one The number one thing to add there Yeah, there are literally millions of compose files out there. I know I you know Nobody that I know of use it. I mean developers use it Primarily so that we can get all our dependencies up and running so we can just work on the code I don't know anybody that you know wrongfully uses it in production or something like that So I wouldn't be too worried about that but from a developer experience perspective. It's just represents to me a Tremendous amount less YAML that I have to write versus trying to run a local Kubernetes Experience You know if I'm running mini cube or kind or something like that I just I don't want to have to deal with all of the other stuff The cruft that comes along in addition to the development stuff that I have to do and so compose just makes it easier But I can still do all the networking and everything else I think that's a common question usually with people moving to podman So all the networking and storage and everything else should be like a drop-in replacement pretty much for You know from Docker to podman and that shows up inside of my doc of my podman desktop environment, right? Yeah, absolutely Now talk talk a little bit about Something that Docker doesn't do like pods So when we view pods, how do we view pods differently than what we would say, you know You know working with Docker From a I mean user experience standpoint within podman desktop there's very little difference and You know, you can start and stop both It's what's running underneath. That's fundamentally different You know when you run compose, it's really just something that's driving individual containers And you know networking settings within the container engine when you're running pods You are running, you know, there's a maybe a few things you can't do that you can do in Kubernetes pods But podman will run You know Regular pods just fine and it's standing it up the same way that you would in a Kubernetes environment So, you know again at a UI level, there's very little different to you start a set of containers You can see the logs you can manage it But what's running underneath is fundamentally different Yeah, we've had a we've had a couple of comments about compose I'm looking up the list here to see if there's any questions for kind of missing we talked a little bit about packaging There was a question about managing user namespaces within podman desktop Is that a Something point we're not doing anything with namespaces. I mean, it's Something we could in the future if there's a demand for it. I Know there was something you and I had a conversation about this morning, which is my favorite topic, which is web assembly I Was thinking maybe it's time to shift and talk about where we're going And that's that's definitely one of them We have a blog post that's coming out very soon Just talking about how you can run web assembly on podman You know wait a week or two and that'll be out there We're at the point where it's going from you need to do one manual step to things just work Out of the box. So that'll be nice change So I look forward to that that blog and Yeah, continued support for for wasm It's actually just in case you don't mind what are like some of the advantages of like why would somebody want to use wasm instead of running containers I know I'm not Rob Rob has made sure that I know the answer to this Anybody who's attending is is unaware of why you might want to run a web assembly instead of a container Like what's the driver? What are we looking to do with that? Well, I mean, that's a Political discussion too, and I'm curious Robert. Okay You know from my perspective, it's There's just a whole bunch of advantages. So Besides web assembly being a sandboxed Environment that is secure On its own I can also add to it container security. So if I do Say a scratch container with web assembly It's got not going to be a different size in addition to the security I can also get it to be the same size as the executable that I would have built anyway So if I was doing something like in rust or Java or C++ It would be the same size in a scratch container in addition to that It's by its nature I can run that on any architecture So for instance right now I have web assembly running with podman on my Mac which is an ARM based machine and the Intel based machine I have behind me that I run some tests on I just Pulled down the container image and run it over here on podman, and it works if I do ahead-of-time compile That's going to be different because you're going to target the architecture But the the point is is from a developer perspective I'm going to get better performance from the ahead-of-time compile, but I'm going to get that cross platform compatibility In addition to that so security Size and size does matter especially because I work a lot with folks doing edge And so whenever I have to push something across the wire to something else I want it to be as small as possible the fact that I can target multiple architectures There's just a bunch of those advantages and the fact that it runs in podman And now I can see it in podman desktop is a huge Advantage to me from a developer perspective because I can start it and look at it and run it just like it's any other container now If you want I can do a dissertation on this for the following hour But we really came here to talk to the podman desktop team, but One of the question for you guys to you so I had a mentioned I then this doesn't this isn't coming from Online, but so I mentioned like when I first opened podman desktop I was like, okay, this is a really nice UI This is a really nice application Could you guys talk a little bit about maybe the difference or is there a difference in developing UI and UX inside of open source projects? Which often have a reputation of being you know, really, you know Arcane and hard to use and command line driven. Is it different doing a UI in the open source? Community then it is for doing like proprietary stuff. I Don't know if anyone else is gonna answer. I mean for me and doing open source developer tools for like 20 years now So I don't know anything different You know, it's definitely You know different Developing a UI tool Compared to command line or something that's you know But mostly that comes out in you know the complexity of UI and the user experience and the you know the questions that opens and how do you test and You know that sort of things but it's no different doing it in the open versus doing it internally. I Would say the one the difference and I have a keynote. I've given a couple times about this is When you're practicing design in upstream open source communities, it's very different than if you're doing it for proprietary software Designers don't normally have a background to deal with a broad community Let's just say that has very strong opinions The design sort of background you like go to critique sessions and you get pretty badly roasted So you don't want to present anything except what is going to pass that critique with your with your pride intact So designers just generally as a practice tend to not show their work until it's almost complete and very polished That doesn't work in an open source development context You have to show works in progress. You have to show back in the napkin sketches You have to show dumb ideas because they're great food brain food for better ideas. You have to be able to do that give and take So it takes a lot of a community management practice on top of your design to be able to be effective in that environment So I think I think to Tim's point. I think if you're a developer, it's not really different But I think if you're the ux on the team, it's a very different experience if you've never been in open source context for My team at Red Hat is actually sort of a group of designers that are specifically upstream focused because it is such a very specific skill set So, yeah, I think that's a can you elaborate on you know, it's a it's an electron-based app, right? So Just give us an example, you know, how some of the decisioning made there because most of the folks that we work with They use open source, but they don't know how Imp, you know, people create the input from the community and other things like that. So You know, maybe if you want to talk about that a little like how do you take input from the community? How do you get that feedback? Well Yeah, so we are an electron app just like Slack and you know, several other tools for our web Componentization it's Svelte and we're lucky to have a lead you know architect on the team that picked some of those choices early on just based on where he saw the You know the community not just ours, but like generally going It's a very nice technical base to develop on I you know at the start of the year I had never used it before, you know initial learning like anything else, but it's actually you can see why it's a good base for building tools like this And like anything else, you know, you're doing open source and I think as developers were kind of used to it You know, 10 years ago 15 years ago, you know You put up a PR other people will be vocal if they think it's You know, the quality is too low or it's a bad thing to do And we get a little bit of a tough skin and you know, you learn to work within a community Nobody has veto power You know something annoys you you propose effects for it Maybe somebody has a better idea and you know, you keep you keep working like that I think as Mo said, it's probably more difficult for the UX for documentation for people are used to Either working internally or you know being the only person who has a say in a particular thing Because we're very vocal. We all have opinions Yeah, and I would also say that For for in terms of like to get the information that we use to make decisions because honestly like software development is basically Making a thousand decisions every day that impact thousands of people depending how many people use software and You really need good data on what the users are trying to do in order to make the best default decision In order to decide what should be on the screen. What shouldn't we do what will deliver the best experience? It's it's very complex and nuanced What we have been doing on the palm and desktop team. We're on our second round We just do open public user interviews. So we'll do like a call for participation We have an early adopters program that um, you'll see some information if you go to the the website that was already posted There's information on our palm and desktop Early adopters program. So we have a mailing list for them if you join you could sign up We'll invite you to participate in these studies. It sounds like oh, it's a study. Oh my gosh No, it's like you get on a call with me and one of my compatriots on the UX team and we just ask you questions about You know, what what are your pain points working with containers? What are your pain points working with kubernetes? How can we help make that easier for you? And we just kind of talk through what they're actually trying to do Um, and then we feed that information back to the development team and we discuss it and we decide, you know Hey, we're doing this new feature for kubernetes support. Um, you know, these are the things you just And we'll go based on the data they gave us to make all of those Cool. So, um, all right, I think we're coming up on time. Um Anything you guys want to talk about, uh Before we break off here Yeah, maybe two things just one, you know, if you're willing to do a user study, uh, please reach out You know, we're always looking for feedback Um, but we're also, uh, I mean grateful for the number of people who have just gotten involved in the project Either fixing the one bug that was annoying them or opening up issues um You know, sometimes one person's hitting something and you know, uh, you don't know whether it's pervasive or if that's uh, other people are seeing it Great thing about an open source project. It's a really low bar to just let us know what's going on How do you think we could improve? Drop a comment Fix a bug whatever. Uh, we always appreciate that Um, the other is, uh, we started sort of talking about where we're going. We talked about wasm um, the other, uh Things that are in development right now. I mean one is the kubernetes context being able to see the different, uh configs Which are current context is cleaning that up, uh, you know, seeing information about all the the contacts Um, I also deployed that pod to kubernetes, uh to Sandbox, um, but we don't have any representation for the other things that we had You know push in that yaml. So ingress routes services deployments We want to have those represented in podman desktop as well Just like pods to be able to flip to those You know interact with them delete them Um, and we're always looking for feedback, you know, what what's your use case? What do you do on a daily basis? How can we help you? So based on the feedback from the community, what do you guys see as or what do you folks see as the um, the top requests I guess would be because i'm i'm just a happy user. So, um I I started using it when he first put it out and I just gets better for me. So I just I completely switched away from uh, docker desktop completely so I I uh, i'm just happy every time you guys put something out but um from uh, you know I'm not asking what you guys are going to do next. I'm asking kind of more or less, uh from a community request perspective What do you guys see as the top requests? I mean honestly, uh to me, uh Yeah, you know, we're deploying this to three different platforms multiple different operating systems with, you know, who knows random other software installed Uh, and you don't make that work seamlessly On day one, it takes months to catch the edge cases catch the what can go wrong and improve it Um, so I'm really thankful that the community is giving us time to to get through that but that's still, you know, kind of an ongoing Uh, you know, we hear oh in this networking setup There's an issue and it takes time to work through that and uh and fix that um the onboarding that uh mo showed, you know, when you install on day one We help you install podman. We help you install compose Um, you know, we want to make that as seamless as possible. So you get to the point where you can just run things and it works Um, so to me, we're still kind of going through that cleaning up the ui making things pretty Um, you know while we start adding the next set of features for kubernetes and other things I would say a common request every time we have a new release somebody mentions light mode We were just talking about that this morning. So It is on our roadmap If you want to help and you're good with spelt and tailwind, please reach out We'd love your help So, um, uh, moraine, what is uh, what is quadlet? Quadlet is sort of a You know, honestly, probably I can't go into technical depth too much on this You might be probably no more than I do but it's the way that I see it is way to run sort of Groups of pods without going full blown kubernetes. Um, I think it's just a d-based Um, so and it's something that is common Oh, sorry, you're breaking up a little bit. So yeah, all right, skip me. I'll jump I asked you the question. I I'll answer a little bit of it. So, um, quadlet just got added. I think ga and podman and um Prior to that if I wanted to run something usually at the edge I would combine it with system d because I wasn't running kubernetes So I'd run a system d with podman to make sure that it was up and running and if something failed And a system d would make it restart etc. But what if I want to run? A group of containers and podman You know, typically at the edge, but I don't want to put kubernetes down there because of I don't need kubernetes for one because um I'm not trying to scale it. I'm not trying to do anything except Deploy it and then keep it up and running. But I have a group of containers so Quadlet allows me to do that with system d where I can now say take this group of containers make sure they're up and running Um and and do that. So, um, if you somebody does a google search for podman plus quadlet, um They'll get a bunch of information that we just ga about that Dark mode somebody just wrote dark mode ftw. So, um Or he just smiled that that smile like I don't know what all that means, but That I mean, that's why we started with dark mode, you know You're going from like a terminal. You're going from, you know An ide and they're all dark when you go to podman desktop It shouldn't shock you so our first priority with dark, but we're definitely looking at light too. Sorry So you guys are all user experience people and I'm just going to um We're not gonna I mean I'm gonna fill some add extra space here, but like I'm colorblind. What do you guys do for? You know folks that are challenged when it comes to looking at the monitor all day If if you didn't know I was colorblind everything's blue to me. So everything in the house, right? So What uh, what do you guys do for um, you know, when you guys are designing? How do you take uh, you know, and I must imagine that must even be difficult for open source when you're taking Into account usability Where most people are are looking at feature functionality and your guys are also looking at how usable it is. So Any comments on that? Well, tim you could probably talk through the the the container icon discussion we had this morning With the outlines and the and the symbols Yeah, I think between podman and kubernetes There are something like nine What really say nine or ten different states that a container can be in And each one of them, you know needs a color or something as a representation Um, so we're trying to make that consistent everywhere in the ui. So when you uh, you know, you see a state in one place You recognize it elsewhere um But yeah, I mean making sure that all Are uh, accessible You know work for people who are colorblind It's always a challenge. Uh, and like anything if you see a place where we've Messed up something like that or it's not, uh, clear the differentiation We'll fix it in bugs The approach we've taken Go ahead Sorry, I have mic problems. Um, the approach we've taken basically is you don't rely on color It's just a bonus But you have to have the shape or the symbol first as the prime. So this morning we were discussing A fill versus an empty outline To show on versus off rather than just green and red Yeah, great because uh, I I uh, I'm a jet brains user from an IDE perspective normally and um Visual studio code has some hieroglyphics in there that um, if you're colorblind you can't read Because the icon Shows up, but you can't actually see the hieroglyphic in it, right? So um, that's been a bugbear for me Um, and it's not a problem on podman desktop So I was just wondering how you guys achieved that because it must be a lot of like you said this morning There was a meeting there must be a lot of conversation around that because I can see everything on it. So um Anyway, that was just my Little tidbit of useless information there. So I'm now at that age where legally I'm obligated to impart useless information on everyone I meet. So um Having said that um Anything Jeremy you want to you got any other comments? Yeah, no, I think we're we're at the top of the hour. I think so. Thanks very much for joining us today And hopefully you guys obviously it sounds like a lot of people who are tuned in today We're are already using podman But we have some new people too through a number of questions about getting strong setup. So We can put once again Let's throw the url in the chat again. We got the url chat. So how do you involve project and how to get your hands on it? Great, and thank you very much for everyone joining today. Um, marine, uh, tim, jeff. I really appreciate it and uh, Hopefully we can get the more people interested in this and involved and uh feedback for you Right. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much for joining us today everyone and uh, Uh, the recording will be out there so that you can give this to friends and family Thank you