 in the morning, if it's Tuesday, it's a different shift. Tuesday, I write with her for a channel so you can find us across all our social media handles. At Michelle Ashira, so you can find me across all my social, in this particular interview, we dive into the role of fishermen in the blue economy. And in studio, I am joined by Cleve Lupawo, who is the founder of Africa Fisherman Foundation. Hello, Cleve. Hi, Michelle. How are you doing? I'm doing well, how are you? I am very much okay. I am doing well this particular day. Thank you for hosting me. Happy December new month. Happy new month to you. You look very nice. I have to comment on that. Thank you. I'm happy to be hosted by you on the first day of December, 2020. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a good month and I'm happy it's setting well. Oh yes, and I'm looking forward to, you know, things being different in 2021. Yeah. Okay. So, Cleve, for someone who's meeting you for the first time and I've missed anything from your, from our introduction, what will you tell us more about Cleve Lupawo? Okay, Cleve, Cleve, yeah, it's Cleve. Cleve Lupawo is an entrepreneur. I dive into problem solving kind of entrepreneurship. I look for a problem. I look for a solution for it. And I mean many areas of life, I mean the fashion industry, I mean IT, I mean charity organizations. And that's what we came to discuss today. Having founded the Africa Fisherman Foundation, which began just over a month ago, officially over a month ago, but we started our operations back in August. And I'm excited to start this new journey in the blue economy because as you realize, the blue economy is the future of developing countries. And from the 2018 sustainable development, sustainable blue economy conference that was hosted here in Nairobi, attended by over 500 countries. Kenya is looking forward to have, you know, a very big blue economy in future. Absolutely. Yeah. Actually mentioned in numerous couple of businesses, five of us. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So are you still in fashion? Yeah, yeah, I'm still in fashion. We had a very big event just this past weekend, the JW show. I was hosting the show. It's actually one of the biggest fashion shows in Eastern Central Africa. And it's been running for about 10 years now. And we're doing the 10th edition just this past weekend. All right. So we'll get to learn more about the fashion industry. And for now, let's look at the Fishermen Foundation. Yeah, yeah, Fishermen Foundation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What drove you to actually start that particular company and what is it all about? Yeah, so back in August, this journey began on the 8th of August, 2020 when I visited McGingor Island. As you realize, McGingor Island is a disputed island between the boundaries, you know, between Kenya and Uganda. It's actually at the boundary of, you know, Lake Victoria between the two countries. So back in August, I decided to visit McGingor Island and my mission was basically to find out, you know, what's the problem? Is whatever being said in the media and the online papers, is it the same as what's happening on the ground? So I went there, I spent four days in the island. I went fishing overnight for the first time in my life. I interacted with the Fishermen. I ate their food. I ate Ugandan food. I interacted with people from over five nationalities. So from there, I started to realize their challenges. And I realized that, you know, what is talked about in the mainstream media is not the same as what is on the ground. You know, in the mainstream media, mostly they talk about the boundary and whether the island is in Kenya or Uganda and the water, does it belong to Kenya or Uganda? But on the ground, people are very peaceful. People do business together. They actually use Kenyan currency and the over five nationalities there. So I realized that other challenges that are not talked about as much in the mainstream media and that, you know, it goes to do with the life of the fishermen, actually. So you realize that there are very few reports that I mentioned in the mainstream media about the death of fishermen. Like you saw just a few weeks ago, a few days ago, 10 fishermen died, you know, or 10 people who are using the boats at Lake Victoria died. And this is because they mostly do not have, they're not well educated or they're not well equipped with the resources of how they can keep safe while using the gears. So I decided to look into the problems of the fishermen and adding or building on the blue economy conference and building on the blue economy discussion that is, you know, taking shape in the world, I decided to found the Africa Fisherman Foundation. Yeah, so what we do basically is looking into the challenges that fishermen face in the blue economy, enhancing their role and highlighting the role that they play because you realize that there are so many big conferences that happen in the world about blue economy, but the fishermen are not included in that discussion. So funny thing you realize that, you know, the fishermen are the people who put fish on your table, but I think in this discussion, they're actually the people on the menu. All right. So from where you've seated and we experience from on ground and interacting with fishermen, would you say that fish farming is profitable in Kenya? It depends how you look at it. Actually, when you look at it, the people on the ground, they make much more less money than the people who consume the fish. Like I'm sure you've just told me that you really love fish and you like eating fish. I'm sure that the restaurant that serves you the fish is making more money than the fishermen. The people who do the transportation making more money than the fishermen, but the fishermen on average, an average fisherman who's employed by probably an owner of a fleet of boats could make an average of 300 to 700 shillings in a day. That is because, you know, the fish vary according to seasons. At some point you find there's a lot of fish in the lake. At another point, there's very few fish in the lake. So the income is gauged on the kind of, you know, the amount of fish that they'll catch in a day. Like that day when I went fishing in McGingor Island, we could only manage about 15 kgs of fish. And you know, by the time you remove the cost of fuel and the time you remove the money that belongs to the boats, so you find that the less fish you catch, the less money you get. So I could say that fishermen down there on the ground are earning very little money and that is also something that you need to change because the blue economy is being taken over by the big fishing fleets, you know, the industrial people, the multinationals who do large-scale fishing for industrial benefit. But you also need to take care of the fishermen who service the majority of us, you know, the majority of the Kenyan consumers. So I could say profitability depends on how you look at it, but down down the ground I think fishermen they're really not having the best of it. Right, so like you mentioned earlier on about the death of a fisherman, a couple of them, 10 of them to be precise. So then you go back to the majority of fish farmers, they're relying on outdated and illegal fishing techniques. So how can you cap that as a government and what does your foundation do to take that? Yeah, it's part of my research that I went to do at McGingor Island and then the next month I went to Mayungu in Malindi also to do the same kind of research. And I realized most of our fishermen are actually using very outdated technology. The boats that we were actually using in Lake Victoria was leaking and the majority of them are actually leaking, you know, the wooden boats. At least in Mombasa, you know, in Malindi I could see they have other fiber made, the made of fiber, the boats there. But in Lake Victoria, fishermen are still using wooden boats. There's no tracking technology. You cannot know as a boss, for example, if I own a number of fleets, I cannot know where my boats have gone. Like in the night, I cannot know whether they've gone to Ugandan waters, whether they've gone to Tanzanian waters or whether they're still in Kenyan waters. And even if they get lost, let's say there's an emergency, I cannot track them. It's basically, you know, just maneuvering in the lake, just trying to look for them. So there's need for technology and innovation to be, you know, factored into the blue economy, especially in the African countries. And that was part of the discussion in the Blue Economy Conference in 2018. So I could say that technology-wise, we're still very behind. In fact, another good example is the fact that we do not have ways of, you know, tracking fish patterns. Like, for example, when I went fishing, you know, you go there, you know, you ride for like two hours into the waters, you pass through Ugandan waters, you pass through Kenyan waters, then back to Ugandan waters. We just, you know, you just lay your nest down there. You just lay, you know, you just assume that there's fish here. So it's a pure work of guessing. It is just guessing. You just, it's a matuleo, it's a mimi-leo, and it's a kia, it's a tamaki. So you just lure your nest there, and then you eat, and then you sleep, and then you wake up at 3 a.m., you start pulling the nets in anticipation that you'll actually find the fish. So these are very outdated methods that I think the world is moving towards technology. And my foundation is looking to incorporate innovation hubs, especially in the Alexa region, internationally. I've seen actually the couple of international innovation hubs that are looking into the Blue Economy. And I'm very positive that in the near future my foundation is going to bring all these people on board to innovate for the Blue Economy, to find trucking technologies, even in terms of communication is a big problem, because realize that whenever there's an emergency, there's very poor network connectivity in the water. All right, so let's look at the mindset of an average fish and mine, right? So the mentality, how can they shift from just doing small-scale community-based fish farming, that means if they're doing like a fish farming, to modern commercial whereby they can reach to, they can reach out to like a wider market, yeah. Okay, the part about marketing, I think it's upon the management units, you know, the beach management units that look into the affairs of the fishermen. And basically what they do is that the fishermen, you know, the fishermen are employed, they're like, you know, it's like having a driver and a conductor in these normal Matatu routes in urban areas. So the fishermen just go to look for the fish, they bring the fish, they give the fish to the owner, and then the fish are taken elsewhere. So the fishermen, I cannot say that in a position to really influence in terms of market patterns, but I feel like there's a lot of space, there's a lot of space that can be opened up in terms of giving, empowering the fishermen because at the moment they're making very less money, they're not in a position to advocate for their own rights, and even in the discussions, like I'm telling you in the blue economy, discussions they're not factored in. So we find that the big multinationals that come with the big fishing fleets, you know, they want to take over the space like you could see even right now in Mombasa, the port of Mombasa is being refurbished at a very high cost, and a couple of local fishermen who lost business or local fish traders who lost business, that's because of that expansion. Okay, so let's go back to your foundation on what you guys do, and in terms of the previous question I asked about the change in the mindset of a small-scale fish farmer, to be able to think in a broader way, in a commercial way, whereby they can reach out to way more markets in this industry. So what does your foundation do? So at the moment you're still setting up structures as you realize that you're trying to bridge the gap to remove the middlemen from the industry, because just like in agriculture, you know, like in farming, like we talk about the coffee and the beans and, you know, the products that come from the farm to the market, this middlemen in between are the ones that jeopardize the efforts of the fishermen to make more money. Because, you know, if, for example, fishermen, a group of fishermen, if they own, let's say, if let's say three fishermen on a boat because they're also very expensive, they can be able to get that fish and be able to take it to the market directly. So we're looking into having a platform that can directly connect the fishermen to the consumers so that we can remove this middlemen in between that hike the price because down there where the fish is caught, the fish is very cheap and then, you know, as you keep going higher and higher, the price keeps increasing. So we're looking into efforts of removing the middlemen from the market, who I think are actually, you know, jeopardizing the profit margins for the fishermen. And how do you intend to do that? Online platforms, of course, technology has provided us online platforms. The fishermen can be able to create accounts, like, let's say, you know, like, Trigger Foods is doing an amazing job. So having an online platform that can be able to connect the fishermen directly to the consumer, the fishermen can be able to create an account on the website. They can be able to, of course, say they have stock maybe of 50, 50 kgs of fish and then people can be able to order the fish directly from them and be able to be delivered. So for better understanding, let's look at the African Fishermen Foundation. What are the services that you offer? At the moment, we are looking to provide a number of services. Like, right now we are running a crowdfunding campaign to purchase life jackets for African fishermen and the crowdfunding campaign is actually live. It's on a crowdfunding platform called Emchanga. We're also trying to set up the same on GoFundMe and other international platforms where we are raising money so that we can use this money to purchase life jackets for fishermen, especially in Lake Victoria. They don't have life jackets. The locally available ones are very expensive, short durability of poor quality and the money, the little money that the fishermen receive from the business, they'd rather direct that to their families and other basic needs. So the moment we have that crowdfunding campaign, we aim to raise at least five million shillings by end of February next year. We purchase life jackets, very high quality life jackets and we're hoping that this campaign, the success of this campaign is going to put us at a level. We are going to get more partners to come together, provide first aid kits to fishermen, especially in coastal areas. They have a lot of challenges with injuries that they face when they're in the lake. So basically our foundation is looking into lifestyle and the welfare of fishermen. Okay, so let's look at, you've mentioned that you're doing crowdfunding. Crowdfunding, yes. So do you have any of the investors or partners who have actually come in terms of investors? Okay, the crowdfunding campaign, we began it, I think it's over two weeks ago, just two weeks ago and right now we are mainly depending on the good will of Kenyans who we are trying to reach through online platforms, through social media. They can always donate to our pay bill number 891300 and the account number is 43771. And I believe that the more we hosted by beautiful people like you on this mainstream media, we can be able to get the word out there and be able to get even more sponsors to join our initiative. So at the moment we don't have any big sponsors. We are mainly depending on the good will of Kenyans to donate to our pay bill number and as time goes by, we believe that we're going to secure more partnership. So what are some of the measures to be taken for? For local fishermen to get training to be available. Considering that earlier on we mentioned that they're using the old techniques when it comes to fishing. Yeah, I think it's about policy. It's about government policy. I know the Kenya Maritime Authority has been doing their part. I don't think that's enough because they try to partner with the beach management units, especially in the fishing areas like Lake Victoria and the Indian Ocean. But I believe they need to do more. And also, when non-profit organizations like the Africa Fisherment Foundation come on board, I think we're one of the few non-profits actually in the fishing industry. We aim to partner with even international companies that can be able to come to Kenya and provide this free training. Like you realize even in Lake Victoria I think there's a good percentage of fishermen who do not have fishing skills, sorry, swimming skills. So we realize that in case of emergency, in case of drowning, they're caught up in a very bad situation where they're not able to save their own lives. So they need to be trained. They need to be trained. Yeah, so apart from going into the high cost of getting partners, I realize when you're doing research in the Indian Ocean in Malindi, majority of the fishermen are very good swimmers. So we're looking even at some kind of an exchange program or some kind of, you know, trying to link them up because the fishermen in Lake Victoria and the fishermen in the Indian Ocean all have different experiences. They might have some commonalities, but the differences are a lot. And I think they can be able to share ideas, share some swimming skills, some life-saving skills because different organizations operate in different areas. All right. As a foundation and you're looking for to just protect the local fishermen. And let's look at the fact that the level or rather the price of production or in terms of fish in our country is quite very expensive compared to the imported fish that we have like tilapia from China, India. So why is it that we are so much into importation and rather than just, you know, promoting our own fishermen? Yeah, if you look at the current margins given by, you know, Bureau of Standards and the International Maritime Authority organization, sorry, Kenya currently produces around 180,000 tons every year of fish. And it doesn't actually meet the demand. Yeah, so the demand is like 500,000 tons every year. Kenya produces between 180,000 let's say to a maximum of 250,000. It's not enough. So we find that the government is now trying to look into China, trying to look into Asian countries to bring the fish. And that is actually messing up the local market. So I think the government needs to focus more on the local fishermen because these are the people who produce our fish. And as much as we're looking into imports, I think we first need to look at the local fishermen down here in Kenya to see ways of how we can boost their productivity from here in Kenya. Let's say we get up to like 400,000 tons and then we can see, let's produce more than we import because at the moment we're actually importing more than we produce. So at least if you get to a level where we produce more than we import, say, if we need 500,000, we're producing about 400,000. I think that will be a good place to be. And would you say that we have the adequate manpower that it is to exploit the vast fisheries resources that we actually have, which is estimated to be over 400 billion by the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Cooperatives? I think we are headed there because from the Blue Economy conference in 2018, we have seen the government has been investing more in the economy, in the Blue Economy, the construction of even the floating bridge in Mombasa, the Kenya Coast Guard that is now providing security services to marine facilities. I think it's all about the intention. If the government has the intention to do it, we can be able to explore the marine and the fisheries to a maximum potential. All right. So for someone who's watching this conversation, probably they want to get into fish farming. And there's another angle of it of someone who's already doing it. So how would you advise for someone who's already put on foot on that and they have invested and everything is on the move currently? What would be your advice for them on how to scale up their business? For you talking about the home fishing, like aquaculture. So I think they can plug into a social media platforms in case they have any inquiries. We are also currently building our own database of experts in terms of people who can advise. Personally, I'm not a fisherman. So I cannot give you the technical expertise on how to do your fish farming at home. But I believe now that we are in this space because we're in this space to bring change and to impact the change and to put the Kenyan fishermen on the Blue Economy conference and the Blue Economy debate, I think in a few months time we're going to have that capacity. So it's all about creating the ecosystem. Every fisherman who's out there who's watching, they can always log into a social media platforms at Africa Fishermen Foundation. Get in touch with us, tell us what you're doing, tell us how do you think we can move this discussion forward and I think in a few months time we'll be able to have capacity to advise. For the fishermen who actually don't have access to smartphone or internet connection, is there a number they can call? Yeah, they can call my number 0729209 419. Or you know, yeah, that's my number. Email is AfricaFishermen at gmail.com. In case you have any other inquiries, just always look for us on social media. And what's the Facebook page again? Africa Fishermen Foundation. Okay, so across all social media platforms? Across all social media platforms. But also need to remind the viewer at home, please donate to our initiative because we are looking to raise enough capital to purchase life jackets for the African fishermen. Our men and women, especially in Lake Victoria, are dying day in, day out because of drowning. They do not have life jackets. The locally available ones are expensive. They have poor quality show durability and you want to change that and you can help to change that by donating to the pay bill number 831-900. And the count number is 43771. Okay, thank you very much Lupao for creating time to be with us today. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the role of fishermen in the blue economy. And it actually goes without saying that more needs to be done. A lot needs to be done. Yes, so thank you very much for creating time to be with us today. Thank you. And you're looking forward to have this conversation on another day and probably at that particular time we'll be looking at things on a different level. Asante Saina. All right, so guys back at home. That was the conversation by Clyde Lupao who is the founder of Africa Fishermen Foundation looking at the role of fishermen in the blue economy. So make sure you don't touch that dialogue and be right back on more on why in the morning at Michelle Ashira so you can find me across all my social media handles at Y254 channel is where you can find us across all our social media handles. Make sure you don't touch that dialogue, be right back.