 When you do a few ultras and stuff you hear that there's actually a website where all these times are listed that is what people tell me yeah When it's something we want and we run into a setback that stops our progress Instead of getting angry or giving up we get curious when we do see progress. We persist even if it's really hard Jason how are you brother? No compliance got up a little bit early this morning to be ready for this but other than that no complaints Apologies, it's It's for a country that the UK has such you know, we I've got so many friendships in America It it sure is awkward to organize a podcast Yeah, it's true. It's true the the timelines the time zones don't don't pan out too well most of the time and You guys got so many we've just got one time zone in this country and you guys got Like what about eight or something? Yeah something like that So mate I was fascinated to look at your LinkedIn profile because I'd never heard Is it FKT fastest known time Yep, that's that is what they're called. Yeah. Yeah, I mean obviously When you do a few ultras and stuff you hear that You hear that bandied around But I never really thought about it and I never realized it's there's actually a website where all these times are listed and You're at the top of that That is what people tell me. Yeah Yeah, I fell in love with The fastest known time world. Well, I actually was already kind of doing it before I even discovered the website kind of like you I was just out chasing cool things. I'd I'd accumulated rock climbing and mountaineering and orienteering skill sets and I had a traumatic car accident that kind of took away my running for a while and when the running came back I'd accumulated this skill set as part of my process of, you know, finding something to do with myself To not lose my mind while I was recovering and When the running came back, I was like, oh well now I'm just gonna run between these like big mountain objectives and deep back country things and So it made it really easy to like go oh Fastest known times. That's that's my new favorite thing because you're able to go out and find a course that takes you into the middle Of nowhere that they could never run a race and you just take your geo stamped photos And you have your GPS data and your live tracking to substantiate that your efforts real and you submit it all to the website and they Verify it and put your time up if you're fast enough to to beat what somebody before you did Yeah, it makes it super cool Because there's been guys. I'll say guys are probably girls as well But there's been guys caught out cheat cheating on that sort of thing. Haven't they? You know, I mean in honesty with all of the stuff with all with the big boom in FKT's there's a surprisingly small amount of Any outright cheating there's been some stuff where people don't submit their style correctly Where they claim to be unsupported which true unsupported means like nobody's out there like giving you anything Like if someone if you bump into people, you know, and they cheer you on like that, that's fine But if you accept any form of help, you know a Snickers bar water You know someone someone meets you during a scary part to walk with you That all that that makes your effort supported and so there've been occurrences where people have had like a film person run along with them It's like technically that's a pacer Technically you're being paced So that's now a supported effort instead of unsupported. So we've had more problems with that stuff And fewer problems with people just trying to completely lie and fake it But you know, I mean as it continues to grow that may become a bigger issue because it's become issue an issue at races where people I Don't I personally don't understand it and I talk about this with my students It's like I don't know why I would want to cheat cheat my way to get my name at the top of something Because then anytime I saw my name It would just be a reminder that I'm a liar Like there would be no honor there. There would be no pride there There would be no sense of satisfaction there would just be like, oh look my name. I'm a liar So I don't get it but apparently some people that equation for short term short term gains plays out in their head and Yeah, they make a bad decision Yeah, we have I think the thing we always need to remind ourselves is some some people are just really not very well and And we have the same thing in the military or obviously our max military now, but We we call them Or they're called water mitties And they're the these individuals that dress up with all the military regalia and the medals and you know, they've got the Barry of some special forces unit and of course they've never served and It's incredibly sad, but I had one of these gentlemen who's Let's use the word recovered from from this delusion I had him on the podcast and it was really when it came down to it He'd suffered some like severe abuse as a child and At one point in his life. He just pretend he was in the military one day And then the next day just pretended a bit You know, someone else is so yeah, you're in a you said during the yeah, yeah, and and and it just grew and he said um He said chris before I knew that I just I actually believed I was this guy that had been in served 10 years in the military and But I guess it's the same for the For people who are cheating Some of them are just I don't know. Can we say grubby just bloody cheats? And and there's nothing in that like like you said Jason is there is Every time you see your name it just reminds you you're you're a cheat, but then I guess there must be some people that Really haven't got a lot in their lives and The thought that they could get the accolade of the fastest known time must be enough to um Tip them over to balance To get what I'm saying No, I love I love your explanation and I think that's totally through. I think it'll probably tie into some of the conversations we have throughout this podcast About mental health and and about you know, how that affects people's perceptions what immediately comes to mind is is they've done studies I'm a teacher. So I kind of pay attention to this kind of stuff um people who cheat on tests um to get a good grade rather than like rank ordering themselves as weaker for forming in the class than someone who honestly takes a test um, they'll actually think that they're they learned more and they'll think that they perform better um Than than people who didn't cheat And it's just this crazy anomaly. It's like because they get a good end result They think that their process was sound and we see this reflected in in the athletic community And then especially if you think of a sport like mountaineering where someone can just have a bunch of successes climbing mountains and they think There are really quality mountaineer with great a great skill set In reality, they've just gotten lucky a bunch of times and they they don't have that depth of field for their skill set to To actually get themselves out of a dire situation um And so we can see that we can see that reflected in both of those places So it's very understandable that someone Who is coming from a place of some form of mental unsoundness? Uh could easily like convince themselves and I love how you sort of told the story of the process of falling into that It wasn't just like waking up one day and a 100 percent blown up story It was like little baby steps and convincing yourselves yourself of a story I think I think the same is true in academics the same is true in in some of the sports That you and I both both pursued I guess the thing is Jason that if Like if someone wants to dress in a military uniform honestly as a veteran I I just so much couldn't care less they can call themselves chris if they want and put my old uniform on it. It really But that's because I think I'm quite sort of balanced. I think if If you get upset at other people that's more a reflection of of yourself, isn't it? but If you did what you did and you You really work hard and you put yourself in danger out there in the wilderness You do all the training you get the gear you get the knowledge the expertise You you're putting yourself on the line And then someone just comes in and and cheats that That is kind of a different thing, isn't it that there is a reason to get pissed off there Yeah, um for me For for the longest time and I I'm not sure I guess you could just say maybe Justice is something I have a strong sense of like I'm that kind of person that if I see someone wronging another person I can get pretty steamed pretty quick about like making the situation, right? Um, even when I was a kid, um So to me that integrity has been like a fundamental part of my personality personality with with especially with things that are In my in my lens of focus so to speak like things I'm very focused on because I'm kind of a hyper focused personality where it's like I'll go all in with something and if If people are doing that in the wrong way, for example, there was a person who started establishing fkt routes, but wasn't doing their research ahead of time And like if you and so well, I'll finish that line They weren't doing their research ahead of time And so they would claim a fastest known time on a pretty well known route like a popular regional or area route And it's like no with 10 minutes of research There are people who've gone three hours faster or more than you on this route Like you can't just jump in here and then be like I'm the fastest No, you just didn't do your research like to me that was very problematic It's like you're just You're not even you're not even honoring the people who came before you at all like you're just Trying to get your name on something um, and I found that very frustrating especially when Um, he let this person came through my my backyard so to speak and it was some of my friends You know people who I've run with that had a faster time than this person was posting on just one of their training runs I'm like You can't be doing that. Um And so that I found very frustrating because I don't know for me It's kind of about the journey where I want to do these things to have gone out and actually Suffered through every step that's necessary to have had the full experience um to to have met up with that grand test that grand experiment and and see what truly happened when I was measured against it and see how I found my way through and to Sell it anything short of that to me is to sort of miss the point um Yes, it you you reminded me of something there. Have you are you familiar with this flat earth theory? I have I have of course. I mean, yeah It's crazy. Yeah well For our friends listening at home I'm a big advocate of people questioning the the status quo and and the power structures in life and I don't think there's ever been a time in history where It's really important to understand what what what's really going on not not what the news stations want to tell you is going on but The the the thing that I wish I could get to people because I get a lot of people say Ah, you you know You if only you knew the truth christen And I I want to say to him like Are you aware people have been all the way around the planet? They've traveled all the way around the planet Two of my friends have done that Uh, one of them ran out fine. So I've got a Sign copy of his book. Look literally just there He he he he led an expedition It's called the trans global or the trans globe and this is all all online You can fight it's not like a secret or anything and they went all the way around the planet When they got to Antarctica they used Uh, I think it was some sort like mechanical tractors to to to to get across so they weren't You know, he has skied across Antarctica. I think I think on a number of occasions And then when he got to the other side their ship came around to pick them up and they they continued right the way around the globe Uh, another a friend of mine Captain Lou Rudd Uh, was the second person in history to ski across Antarctica. He's actually like my friend, right? and his um Mentor can we say was it was a guy called Henry Worsley? who was again, uh, who was an army officer and Henry died Something crazy like 30 miles from being the first person to ski all the way across Antarctica And for people listening if you're wondering why I mentioned Antarctica. It's that if you're a flat earth Believer or a flat plane as is referred to Then you believe that the Antarctica is just a ring of ice around the edge like an ice wall Very often they'll quote they'll In these videos that i've seen they flash up what is just a picture of a glacier It's the edge of the ice And they said there's the ice wall. It's like no dude go down there Just get on a ship and go there and you won't be saying this stuff and it's not expensive I've I've expedition to Antarctica It cost me a lot because I wanted to go scuba diving jason, right? but if you just want to go like on an expedition you can you can do it for oh Some of the guys on expedition they booked last minute and they booked in argentina A travel agent and they bought the the places on the expedition where somebody had dropped out and they got it for $1,000 or something. It wasn't it wasn't expensive and you can go there and you can stand on a continent It's a continent. It's not an ice shelf, right? And Going back to your point like Guys if you just do a bit of research you can learn all this You know and then you don't have to come to people like me who know all this stuff And they try and convince me that I don't know what I know or You know, you don't have to dishonor the the legacy and the memory of people like henry who died To you know go and tell his family that the earth's flat And that their their husband their son Is a is a complete lunatic and he doesn't know or that he's Like an mi6 agent, you know, like a cia or something, right? It's just uh It's just incredible when Crazy thing there is just the people that believe this they think that they're open-minded And that they're not controlled and it's no it's completely other way you to believe something Without caring for the facts. That's just what I call left brain left brain sort of thinking Sorry, mate. I've gone off on one there, but it's just it's really I just think it's really relevant for all of us to You know, you got you got to pick your conspiracy theories carefully and then there's a lot of conspiracies out there and then and I'd agree with A good load of them, but the earth being flat is It's how can you say it's flat when your friend has been all the way around it? What do I go and call in a liar and call him like, you know, cia or mi6 or something? It's Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. I'm not laughing at the I'm just laughing at the notion that that I understand I understand it's like when when when you understand something so thoroughly that You you can't get around the absurdity Of of an alternate and incomplete idea and I think it goes Yeah, it's a reminder of there's this to me. There's this powerful phrase That serves as a reminder in life That there's such a thing as a lie honestly told like People can fully I mean world multiple world religions couldn't exist without the possibility for A lie honestly told Jason one second. I've just had someone knock on my office door. I will be right back There wouldn't be such a thing as as having multiple world religions if There wasn't such a thing as as fully believing In an idea and having that idea be wrong So you you can you can and so many things are passed on so many perceptions and they don't have to be completely wrong Right, it's not a binary. It's it's a concept. It's like I could have a concept in my head of what a car is And it's grossly incomplete like if you put together the car that's in my head It would not get you anywhere because I would be missing so many essential components While someone else who's a mechanic I can think of a mechanic I've gone to in the past had this astonishing Knowledge where you you'd say a car of a certain year and he just start talking about these components And what's inside them when you blow them up and da da da da and then oh, yeah that year They did this to the brake system and you know the oh, but you know like just this thorough Like he's the kind of person I imagine if you just put him in a machine shop And you said we'll come back in a year have a car There would be a car and it would run and drive um But the rest of us to some degree if we try to tell people what a car is We're we're telling a bit of a lie of omission, right? We don't have the complete truth And so there's so many things like this going around where people are passing these ideas back and forth and they fully believe them But belief is not an indicator of truth and belief is not an indicator of completeness of thought And and I think that's a powerful powerful thing to remember And it gives you a little bit of compassion when you're dealing with people because it's like, okay Yeah, you you really believe this and I think in my teaching practice it It allows me to stay in sort of a socratic questioning method instead of like You know judging me like wow you're ridiculous at it. Uh, it's like oh well I'm just gonna ask all I'm just gonna go through the process of asking all the right questions until you arrive at a place Where you yourself conclude? Oh, I don't have enough information To draw that conclusion. Do I it's like well, no you really don't Good luck figuring it out now because you've got cognitive dissonance and you're gonna have to um so Yeah, I think that's you know a lie honestly told to to to understand that people can be in a frame and in a place You know to reference back to you know, your your military reference that the the fellow who was struggling People can be in a place where It's not just a lie that they've chosen to tell but it's just something where they Don't know better, but they're convinced of what they do know Yes, exactly Let's um get back to your story apologies, but Can you give us some examples? Um Like what's been the toughest your toughest challenge and what do you do? Sort of regularly that's fairly easy Um, so my my specialty. I've done some some fastest known times You can go look at my list on the fastest known time website under their athlete tab the who's done it um and Some of my some of my times come from just trail systems, but that's not that's not my forte That's not not my love usually that's just because I found a trail where I'm like Oh like no can't really find much as far as people running this trail end and it's a beautiful trail and People will be inspired by it. So I'll list it even though it's not That's not my jam and I've done that a few times with some trails around my my home state And the surrounding area just to like draw more attention to them in this cool sort of fkt niche um, but my real forte what I love is mixed skills where You're going to be in the back country and your decisions have gravity Um, where what I mean by that is if you mess up, there's a possibility you you don't come out um For me, I'm an I'm an adhd mind like my mind is always going a thousand different ways Even as we've been talking like All over the place, but when I'm out there in a high risk situation especially while Climbing with a ton of exposure and high consequence in rock or glacier terrain Like the focus because of the fear makes my mind completely quiet And I love I love that that experience of the silence of the mind Um in those spaces. So there's there's a personal reason why I'm drawn to this And why I want to You know actually go out and do these high risk things rather than talk about them. Um, in fact, I've always loved the quote Live your life in in such a way that others do your bragging for you It's like I don't I don't want to talk about what I'm doing. I just want to go do the things that's what I care about and the reason why is because It gives me this this Experience in life that I very seldom get of just having a mind focused completely on one experience um So anyways, I love I love pushing into the back country high consequence Um situations. I love running run plus free soloing Or some people would refer to it as hard scrambling because it's not like true hard rock climbing It's like the easy moderates where most people would be very very afraid and like definitely want to rope up But also most human beings are capable of climbing it if they're at least reasonably fit It's not like the world elite, you know rock climbing stuff like alex honnold on free solo or something um But I love mixing those two disciplines where it's like you're running out to an objective that can only be climbed Um via like okay, I'm gonna just you know, either pull on a set of climbing shoes Or i'm gonna solo up this thing with my running shoes on and it's 100 like I'm hanging by my fingertips and a wrong decision has a cost Um the same with like glacier travel through through crevasses um, I love I love I got very into and still love love uh infinity loops Which is where you climb all the way up over the top of a mountain usually a volcano because they just aesthetically are more privy to this Then you circumnavigate half the mountain Then you go back up over the mountain again, and then you circumnavigate the other half The largest of which of those I did is uh mount rainier, which is 14 000 feet tall the tallest mountain in the state of washington um It's a total of 135 miles long about 44 000 feet of elevation gain Um, and both of the both of the routes on either side of the mountain Are highly crevasse So you're making decisions of high consequence while you're up there Um, I remember traversing above this crevasse where it's like I'm on this little ice ledge That's about half a boot length wide And you know got the ice axe above me, and I'm like traversing across this little ledge and down below me with I mean Maybe there was enough time to fully arrest a fall I think there was which is why I made the decision to go ahead and go unprotected Is it's like if I did mess up which is unlikely, but if I did mess up I have one chance At putting the ice axe in and arresting the fall Um, but this crevasse like you look down at it you could drop a school bus into it and you wouldn't know it was there um Just this big gaping hole in the ice and it's like Having done the work and being aware that I'm a person capable Of putting myself in that situation while fatigued And being able to trust in my execution of skills. There's there's something to that for me um and then I guess another reason the rainier infinity loop comes to mind for me is after Successfully going twice over the mountain Once in a you know sleep deprived fatigued state I then had to finish the second half of the circumnavigation and it doesn't it doesn't the wonderland trail doesn't divide neatly into halves It's like your first half as you get back around to climb over the mountain again Is only like 37 miles long or 32 and then the other half Is 67 so you've basically got 100 k race as your final leg of Of this experience and so I remember coming into that And taking off to run on that final um bed and most of the wonderland is pretty technical and pretty steep trail It's not it's not buttery smooth, but I was on a buttery smooth section Mild downhill so I'm like, okay Let's open it up for a little while and like stretch the legs out after coming down the mountain And I look down at my watch and I'm only doing 14 minutes per mile Which is just pedestrian. I'm like, oh no If this is the fastest I'm capable of going at this point I just don't get to sleep this second night like in order to be sure I break this record I just need to let go of any ideas That I'm going to I'm going to sleep in any way just to just to be sure I have the time to to gut this thing out and I remember going into that second night and just getting into this place and I mean I only slept like an hour the first night Where you know it's hallucinating seeing weird shapes Getting to the point where you know that feeling where you're driving along and you shouldn't be driving anymore And your head starts to whoa Whoa, and you're like that, you know your head banging your head bouncing I was doing that while walking like like suddenly I'd be falling over because I was falling asleep on my own feet while moving um Just having this wild experience out there and I remember in that moment having Having what I would refer to almost is in a broad use of the term as a spiritual experience where You know we we we would love we would love to see ourselves live up to all these words That we used to describe virtues, you know To you know, what is it to be strong? What is it to be tough? What is it to be tenacious and that's the word that came to me in that moment tenacity? and Just became to the point of tears became aware like I am embodying that word in this moment. This is what tenacity feels like this is what it feels like to be completely dedicated To your goal and unwilling to relent in the face of of any amount of pain or setback or struggle and Just like was moved to tears as I'm marching along through the night like I am actually a tenacious person. I am I am capable of exercising That word that value To to as high of a degree As as as possible seemingly And that was powerful to me and that still stands out in my mind And I think that was a pivotal experience because up until that point. I'd only run 100 miles was my longest distance so 137 miles was 37 miles of experimentation like what happens I'd also never gone through a second night of sleep deprivation while moving So that wasn't a complete experiment And how long did that take you to run 137 miles, especially if it was up a mountain and back? That one's two hours seven minutes Two hours and seven minutes or two days. Sorry two Left two days seven hours. There we go. That's the one I want. I I transposed my my words there Yeah, no, I I was trying to figure that out To date that wow, that's still Yeah That that's That's good going, especially if that's on terrain. Were you self-supported on that? That one was self self-supported. Yep. No no support crew of any sort there Not even any no not even any friends. They're watching Did you did you take any food with you? Well, I mean obviously you did but what what food do you take and how much of it? So I I did since I did self-supported style. I had a stash on each side of the mountain. Yeah So that way I could also transition between mountain gear and running gear And I mean What during the carries so carrying over the mountain and carrying on the trail I mostly did a product called tailwind which you just mix in your water And it has your electrolytes and your calories that way I could conserve weight and volume So I didn't need to carry as big of a pack full of you know heavier foods And then at my tent and my car which were on opposing sides of the mountain I had things like salami and avocados and almond milk and Just a whole variety of anything you can think of you might want when you're out doing an effort Or after you take a rest from an effort um So just an assortment of different foods on either side um top ramen As a as a you know something to warm up quickly that I could eat um Yeah, so that that's kind of how I did that is keeping the carries light and then sort of having a A buffet or an aid station on either side Yes It's yeah that moment where it just becomes hard going and you keep going It can be like a Can like go one or two ways I think it can either go the way that you said where it just becomes quite beautiful that you're living your dream and you're smashing it and you're But my last challenge I started to find myself going off This is hard This is like oh god My last challenge I ran I ran 200 miles as quick as I could So I I started off around a running track And if if I could have done it like in the ideal world Um, are you pause there for a second? Oh, no, I'm still I'm listening. Sorry. I thought I thought zoom had crashed so So yeah in an ideal world. I would have wanted to do it in two and a half days Um, because the running track then shut for Christmas So I was basically like giving up my Christmas to to do a run for charity the idea being Everybody's at home having turkey But I'm out in in the worst storm that we've had for years Uh, which went on for the whole of the five days. I was I ended up running And I do remember after the first marathon Which normally in ultra running times you don't even feel the first marriage It's like you haven't even started warming up yet. It's not it's nothing After the first marathon I my achilles on my left foot had just completely seized up in a way I've never had before and it wasn't just the achilles It took over the whole of the ankles them but the whole of my ankle felt seized and in pain I pulled my right hamstring Um, I pulled my left calf I just had all these injuries that I hadn't anticipated and I'm only I've only just done a marathon Okay, a few of them the injuries came a bit later on And this rain just wouldn't let up in the wind. I couldn't even have uh home My golfing umbrella not that I golf but I've got a golfing umbrella I couldn't even hold that because the wind was just blowing it Like it was just trying to take take it off And so that two and a half days plan Turned into five days just running for five days and I allowed myself sort of six hours sleep every night just I I'll be honest I got a bit lost in the end. I'm like, what did what am I doing now? Why did I start this? I it wasn't to like be resting. I just thought I was going to run the whole thing but it um And yeah, I do remember thinking on that. Oh God, it's so good when you're smashing it even when you're in pain But you just can keep smashing it but when you're in pain And you're not feeling it It's It's a different thing It's tough. I I do love that you You demonstrated how how to reframe in a healthy way there Rather like as soon as it became impossible for your original goal to happen What a lot of people do is in that moment like the whole the wheels come off the bus the whole machine breaks down Right the motivation falls apart. They fall apart and it's like they accomplish. They just stop there and accomplish nothing, right? um But to be capable of going no, there's still something I want here And so reframing like okay, I'm going to finish this thing, but now it's going to take five days um Like they're that that's that's pretty powerful even though like it doesn't feel good and it's like oh man I mean five days to do this thing like I should have been able to go faster But that's part of what you have to navigate, right? And I think I think that makes it all the more admirable when you set out for an ambitious goal And instead of it being do or die. It's Well, no, I'm just going to find a way to do Even even if it falls short of my own expectations for myself And even if I'm a little bit disappointed and even if other people are able to make fun of how slow I was I'm still going to do this thing because I care to do this thing um Like there's a huge amount I think about the people who show up to ultra races And they're never the people that are going to win anything not even their age group all they're going to do is Fight their ass off to not miss a cutoff time Right like there that's wow like I've always respected that which is why I've I've never let myself drop out of a an ultra race that there wasn't a An acute injury that's like if I continue on this It will create medical complications where it's like I'm gonna I'm gonna put myself in a Much much worse place. Um But if it's just like I'm having a terrible race. I'm in pain I heard all over my bodies, you know, like I'm vomiting or whatever it's like Well, am I still able to make forward progress? Okay out of respect for those people unless I get pulled from the course. I'm going to go finish um and That's because to me there's there's a huge amount of honor and respect to that like they there's no accolade there It's not like you win. Don't get it. I don't get it The last ultra I did the actual an official ultra. I mean not not my 200 milo I did a 108 mile run Eight miles is because I kept missing the markers and going the wrong way, right? So my tracker was clocked up another eight miles But I did a 108 mile run as the last leg Of a quadruple distance triathlon um and so even though I swam nine miles Cycled 450 and now I'm running 180 and this is friends on this is non-stop. There's The the I did it in seven days But the run itself and I had to have a day for traveling in the middle because the ultra was at the other end of our country but When i'm doing the ultra It got really hard in the morning. I was just drained absolutely drained But people were just giving up in the middle of the night And they were taking them off to the to an aid station and they just sat there in deck chairs You know drink in and eat and um It's like at least if you pull yourself out you've got to look like you're dying It's got to be a reason to stop not just I just stopped I'm not criticizing people. I just find it I find it interesting Yeah, it's uh You know, I think it comes down to like the mechanics of desire, right like There's a difference between being fit. There's a difference between um wanting and achievement and Then having this deeper desire to just Push yourself where the process itself is in some way the reward and I think I think when you When stuff starts to go sideways and The the accolades and the rewards start to Like diminish because you're not going to get as you know, you're not going to win or whatever um That's when that's when that gets tested even more like Do you truly want this thing you're doing just for the sake of doing it? Or is it Are you are you focused on some end result some secondary gain that you're getting out of it? And that's that's a bit of work. I have to because you know with this fkt thing I started out just like this is what I love This is what I want to do and this gives me a forum to like inspire other people through it And the teacher in me like loved that idea of being able to speak into more people's lives But now here I am on a podcast and this has happened more than once And like people are like, well what you're doing is amazing Like you're doing these really hard things and you're doing them fast and you're climbing these routes that people are normally just scared to climb you know By themselves and you're mixing it with these long runs um and It would be really easy to get caught up In that secondary gain right like oh, I can get you know money here and there like not not a lot But like a little bit of money to support my next big venture And I can get some gear and I can get on a podcast and have a conversation um You know a lot of people If if you don't have a clean line of why you're doing what you're doing If you don't have that really figured out and bright lines set for to keep keep you on the path of like no I'm doing this stuff because I love it for these reasons then It's really easy to get that warped in your head to where you're doing things for the extrinsic reward Because I mean our society's program is like why do you go to work to get a paycheck? Why do you do well in school? Well to get a job. It's like there's always a some other reason You don't do well at you know, you're not taught Oh do well at school do well at academics because learning is awesome That's not a good point So in the same way, it's like if you want to have high levels of motivation You have to be doing the thing for the love of the thing And you know people ask me all the time like oh, you're gonna do your 100th fkt You're gonna do your 100th fastest known time like how are you gonna celebrate? I'm like My guess is I'm gonna see something while I'm out there that I'm like, oh, that's a great line And I'm probably gonna finish my 100th and go drive back to that thing as long as I have time I don't need to be back at school I'm gonna go drive back to that thing and go try to hammer out an awesome time on it because like You know, you're aligned when the reward for the thing is doing more of the thing And and I think that's a that's a powerful thing to remember is that The most powerful motivations for us as human beings are the ones that come from inside Where nobody is offering us anything In return for what we do And yes, it's okay if you get some secondary gain out of things. It's okay if you get some fame It's okay if you get some power. It's okay if you get some money But the moment you start to Think that you're doing it for those things Is when you're going to it's going to become work And work is something really easy to go. Is it worth it? And that's usually a sign that you've slipped somehow into that mindset If if you're out there and you find yourself asking the question, especially if you're asking it often like is this worth it? Probably in some way in your mind, you're doing it to get something Because you in order to ask that question, you're measuring you're measuring a reward against the current level of work So you have to be If there's if there's no if you're not perceiving a reward if you're just like I love this stuff This is like there's no place. I'd rather be there's no is it worth it question Oh, it's such a good point that you bring up because I think people wouldn't have considered it like that before and I'm here thinking I'm relating this to my life now Because when I go out in the nature Say I'm with my son and he's just a little kid But dad put your phone away and it's I'd love to say Honestly, it's just because of my work because you know when you when you work in the media Social media or whatever youtube media You've got to keep stuff You've got to keep putting something in the social media books to stay To make it work, you know, it's it's just a greedy Greedy algorithm that unless you're really lucky like you're a Joe Rogan or something and you but I mean he's not lucky these guys work really really hard for for 15 years now to get his podcast to work um But unless you Yeah, unless you get to that stage where it's it's just a podcast someone takes care of it for you They put it all on youtube You just do do the chat and then you go off and you know paddle your kayak or run up a mountain or play with your Fat, you know play with your children. It's You constantly have to keep chipping stuff in the pot and Then of course There's that crossover between well. Am I just chipping something in the pot to make my career work? Or is it the The reward I'm getting because then people are liking this post and oh that one's more popular than the one I did last week I wonder how many people are you know now going to follow me through my career because of this and it's It's none of it good But regardless it just takes you away, doesn't it from the natural The the thing that we started it for I started this podcast because I just wanted to chat to people like yourself Jason, you know about what I like which is adventure getting out there smashing it being happy for your every day on this planet and and and and just pushing the pushing yourself a bit And then of course The algorithm gets you doesn't it and you realize it's just not that easy to make it work and it's okay, but so um Yeah, it's fascinating what you said about school my god, I've never Oh I've never run. I've never thought of it like that Yeah, but there's so much they don't teach you at school. They don't teach you to Appreciate the beauty and just sitting in the nature. That's it, you know, you know, you don't need They don't teach you how to be kind to people They don't teach you that happiness is way more beneficial than than wealth um And you you're a teacher. I would add I would add to that I would add to that I think When when I think about because it's really easy to start Pointing fingers looking for blame, right? Um, it's really it's like, oh, that's the school system's fault or that's, you know You know, you like you want to find a finger to point at someone and be like it's that entity's fault there why but There's such a thing as second order and third order problems, right? So Oftentimes a parent not teaching their kid to ride a bicycle Which is like a fundamental skill to operate a two-wheeled vehicle And to have a sense of freedom and empowerment as a young person adventure Exploration to get to know you're the place you're growing up in Well, oftentimes nowadays it could be that the parent never learned and you can only teach what you learn and So that's a second-order problem, right? Like a person can't teach what they themselves do not know um So We run into these issues where? Well, yeah, like a teacher can't teach something if they themselves Didn't learn it from from their parents from their schooling from from their support system um So it's like it's not just the system's fault. It's like we've got society as a whole. What are we focused on? We we live in a comfort driven society We live, you know, we live in air conditioned boxes heated in air conditioned boxes We drive around and heated in air conditioned boxes We we teach and we seek comfort As sort of the end all be all like be safe be comfortable Um, we're starting to come to understand like oh that doesn't lead To mental soundness and human happiness to just be comfortable. We almost need some something in our life That's stressing us and bending us and and forcing us to adapt because if we don't we get very unhealthy and very stagnant And then often we start breaking important things in our life, whether it's relationships or jobs or or home life whatever it is we start to like Break the stuff in our life so that we have more stress And I think I think I guess to tie that together We we need we need spaces that are designed to test us And this is one of the reasons I love being a physical educator a PE teacher Is I can design environments where a kid might get to have a fear response to something where I know As the expert in the room. They are very very safe At any point like instantly I can grab them off and it's over like say climbing We have this little 12 foot high rock wall And at any point when they're on that wall I can easily just reach up and grab them and take them off the wall and they're they're fine no matter how scared they are But what it offers is this opportunity when they have this strong fear response I've never physically taken a kid off the wall when they've gotten scared instead. I come over. It's like, okay What's going on? All right. Well, what can you do? Let's breathe. All right. Have you looked around? Do you see another spot you can put your hand? Do you have you do you see another spot you can put your foot and slowly but surely get them to find a A sequence they think through themselves to get down and when they get down that wall I go, well, did you really need me because you know, usually they've called my name because they're scared or one of their friends Have run over so and so stuck on the wall Um, and I'll I'll ask them. Well, did you need me? They like think about it. Well, no, I'm like never forget that When when we feel fear the thing we need to do Is continue thinking about the next thing we need to do and yeah create you can create these experiences where You learn to navigate different feelings And I think that's unique to the like a sport and a physical realm Because in order to feel a similar fear in your regular comfortable like societal life Something has to be going terribly terribly wrong. Like you've been fired from your job Or your wife is leaving you your husband is leaving you um Like something has to be going terribly terribly wrong for you to feel a debilitating fear in regular life But in the physical realm you can do things where You get to face these deeper parts of yourself And learn to handle them in a healthy way Just like we all had to learn to manage our anger as a young person You know, that's like a fundamental integration healthy integration to society thing is Can you can you manage your anger and find healthy outlets for it? Well, the same is true of fear. We just don't talk about it as much Yeah, there's another interesting thing that I learned fairly recently And that is if you run from fear whether that be Imaginary or perceived fear like say I'm not entering a marathon. That's just world us You know I can't it is fear isn't it because we all know a human being can run 26 miles Or walk it Crawl it push yourself in a wheelchair whatever it's not it It's not as difficult as as people might think but If you give into that Or maybe it's anxiety, you know the anxiety about being in a certain certain situations or social What what you're doing is you're telling your primitive Fight or flight mechanism that it was right that it was good To make you scared because there was a real threat and you moved yourself away from it And what it does is it establishes in the brain That that that's a real threat. So the next time you face A similar situation which to one person it's it's like nothing because it really is nothing your brain then This neural pathway kicks in All these chemicals kicking going oh there it is again. Remember what we did last time We ran away I'll run away and then you've double strengthened it and then and this This behavior You're actually reinforcing a fear of something that that No, I total I've I've read that myself. I've heard that myself That going Going headlong into fears Is is the most? Healthy like healthy way like I mean it's it's in the short term Right, and you've got it. You've got we've always got to consider stuff in short-term game and Medium to long-term strategy in the short term it can be it can be horrific like to to charge headlong into your fears I mean Sometimes people look at what I do I actually just did a little show and tell with my students where I showed a picture of myself On the side of like a steep rock cliff on a mountain to get to the summit It's a mountain called mount feel sin It's it's almost like a dr. Seuss mountain. It's just like how is that even standing? It's such a spire at the top and So there's this picture of me climbing up it And and I show it to them. It's like, okay You know if I snap my fingers and you were hanging here Just right now. What would you feel? It's like, you know, someone would be like, wow, that's awesome And then others are like, well, I'd be scared. It's like, well, yeah, you would probably all of us would be And then I asked do you think I'm scared And you know a bunch of them are like, no, and if you were like maybe I'm like, no I absolutely experience A fear of heights. I I feel it just like you guys. I feel it very palpably very strong very intense very visceral fear of heights but That's why I go out there I want to experience that and I want to act in the face of that toward my goals I want to keep making the smart decisions and I'll like reference experiences that they've had Whether it's on the rock wall or learning learning bicycling because I teach my students bicycling um, and I'll like reference these points that they can like integrate into their understanding And and I talk about you know, with the older students, I'll talk about like what it means to like Integrate strong mind and strong body like to do something like climbing a technical mountain You know most and I'm like I bring up like, okay, you're out in nature's wonder you're out in the beauty And you see these lakes and forests around you and these other peaks and you look up at a peak like mount thielson Which is this beautiful spire and most people look up and go I wonder what the view is like from the top right sense of wonder sense of exploration This beautiful part of being human, but then they immediately have to follow that with but I'm not strong enough or But that's too scary, right? So too scary would be would be lack Like a perceived lack of being able to handle their own fear That like that they don't think they would be able to manage that fear to a degree that they can safely execute the climb Or I'm not strong enough or it's too far away would be physically they physically don't believe they can actualize that climb And so in order to go do something like that to be a person who can look up and go oh man I wonder and then go live that out. So instead of wondering you have a memory You know what it feels like to climb that mountain You know what it's like to stand on that summit and see those views It's both you have to have an integration of strong mind strong body And you know, I talk about that like this is why we do what we do here And in p is that someday when you go out there you have both skill sets and mindsets that allow you To to have these opportunities to have the option to choose to go and maybe and I tell them Maybe mountains won't be your thing like they're my thing. They don't have to be your thing But there's something there's something out there you're going to be scared of There's something out there that's going to be very very hard And you're either going to do the work to make it so you can go Oh, I wonder what that's like and then you find out or you go. I wonder what's that that's like and you withdraw And you know to me that that's one of the most powerful things I can I can pass on to them in In different packages for different kids is this understanding of the work we do and And the character we build and I reference it to like character how the strength of character you have And the burden we're capable of you know carrying also for others then, you know, because again, it's like you can only teach what you learn And so the more you improve yourself The more you have to pass on to others Um, and you know that ties into like a responsibility conversation like If you bother to better yourself and you're able to take heavier and heavier burdens on your shoulders That means when things go sideways or someone needs help You have your your life in order in such a way that you can help them Rather than being the one who needs help and And that means you're actually doing some good with your life You're actually you're actually lifting others others are better off because you lived That's a pretty cool thing Like that's pretty amazing Like wouldn't it be sad to live your whole life and to have only been a burden to other people to only have had them paid their money to Have you exist to only have had other people help you And and have that be your existence instead how cool is it To live a life where it's like oh like this person has a house because of me and this person You know like they this this little old lady isn't sad and lonely because of me and and you know This person when their rig broke down instead of being scared and stranded had me there to like help tow him in like whatever it is um Being able to take that and shoulder that burden to to help make your community a better place and You know, it's this it's this Integrated package of what it what it means to like actually Become a healthy human being um a well human being a human being that's integrated in society in the in the real like human sense rather than the well you work a job and Make some money and build a product sense, which is also, you know I mean that gets a lot of hard knocks by certain groups these days um, but it's like if you're providing a unique product that answers a need in people's lives like there is value to that um There is definitely value to that so it shouldn't get knocked as hard, but I think there's this human level Of doing the same that We don't talk about as much Yeah, if if all you if you're just conditioned to take take take and make make make and gain gain gain and look forward to the next job position and the next salary and the You know The next thing you can get That's never ever going to end is it you know, there's no you don't get to a point. We go right. I've got enough now It just never stops, but if you give You you don't have that false goal in your life You can be at one with yourself and and and live a fairly a much A much more relaxed and stress-free life Does that make sense No, I follow Yeah, I mean it's that thing, isn't it? We were conditioned to just set These sort of goals if when I get to here, then I'm going to be happy when I get this holiday or you guys call it vacation I'm going to be really happy, right? Well, oh, there's a party next week Then I'm going to be really happy when I get the job promotion then I'm going to be then I get this new car and then it's it's um It's all just about me me me, isn't it and what can I take and what can I take and if you just reverse that and make your life around giving Then you haven't got all these You can just relax and start enjoying life Yeah, uh, I mean that ties back to the our chat about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, right Society's like, oh you you need to set these end goal like get the promotion get the job get the car get the You know wife get the kids like this you're doing it for this outside things um And I do think that's a weakness of that mindset being driven as the only mindset like oh the only reason people do anything is because you're rewarding Reward them. Well, that's not true at all. Otherwise people would have no hobbies um So people do things because we have passions for them and I think I think the same has to be true with your giving right you could you could give and be very unhappy because you're like Oh, well, I'll just I'm going to give to you know this much to this charity and then I'll feel good I'm going to give to give to this group and it's like well If you're if you're framing it mentally in the same way as if you're You're doing it for some extrinsic outside reason As opposed to like oh, I see I see how this aligns with what I value in the world. This is something I want a good I want to see myself providing to those around me and these people happen to be doing it really well So I'm going to raise money for them or give money to them Like that's going to be very different than like checking a box for giving away a certain percentage of your income um, like you you could you could have a person who gives much less and feels Much more of a sense of peace About it and you have a person who gives much more and feels nothing about it Based on based on which of those mindsets you fall into and I think this ties into one more thing I need I'm going to need to wrap up and run off to go teach um but This ties into like a Sort of an internal metric if you will This is like a a tool that that people can use to to measure like okay Am I Am I staying motivated for the the reasons that align with my values my sense of empowerment My sense of the burden I would like to bear for those around me my why if you will Um And when you're when you're in alignment with those things that are enjoyable and empowering to you You're you're going to talk about you're going to use words of want words of desire like oh, I want this I hope for this I dream of this Right those that's the language the person will pop out And it's fun to just start listening to your friends and family members talk about things and catch which words They use in what situations and what things they talk about colorfully and which things are really drab and colorless and then On the opposite side of the I want you have the I have to must You know the the language that that indicates they have this perception of this thing they have to do They don't have an option. There's no freedom. There's no choice. There's no passion Um, and you used it just earlier you talked about the social media machine and how you have to keep putting into it, right? That's That's a work mindset. That's a like I have to do it And so it's funny and it's like I don't have to but I feel that I you feel that you do and that's what's important And the language the language pops out Based on what you're perceiving and the perception is everything right because as soon as we flip the perception We can alter our motivation for something So that's the point here and that's why the tool is powerful So oftentimes people will sign up for say let's use something that maybe people have heard on here before like an ultra race or a marathon And you've been running you've maybe you've been running because you love you've fallen in love with running And you love how it makes you feel and you love You know you're more fit and you have a better clarity of mind and you're healthier and da da da da You're now eating better because you care about your running And then you sign up for a marathon And suddenly you notice yourself going. Oh, I have to follow this training plan and I have to get this long run in and I have to And it starts to become less joyful and it starts to become more of a chore and your motivation to get out The door is is now less Well, you've you've made it work You've you've made it now. It's about that end that end reward of having run the marathon and so In order to access that play and that fun and that exploration That's going to give you more motivation. You have to go back to well. What is it? Why is it? I'm really running like yeah, I'm going to run a marathon. I don't have to run a marathon I'm going to run that ultra marathon or marathon, but I'm running because I want to I'm running because it makes me feel good I'm running and I'm running this big grand experiment to see can I do this? And so when you flip it back to where you can talk about how you want to be doing those things and you want to go Explore on this long run in a new place and you want to go see what it feels like to go further than you've ever gone Suddenly your motivation will be back You're going to be in a higher motivational state because you're going to be able to access all these different things And we can see this we can see this model basically If you're in the half-two mindset and you run into frustrations things that are setbacks And it's stuff you have to do so like let's say they change the algorithms on you tomorrow And you suddenly had no clue how to get your content seen like that would be frustrating um And in a situation where you're in a half-two mindset Your your two options for how you're going to handle That setback are either anger or surrender You're either going to get really really angry about it And you're going to you're going to like have lots of negative things and bitterness to say about the change in the algorithm in this This instance Or you're going to give up you're going to be like god, they're just going to change it again And I give up like right when I figure it out So you and you can you can probably think of people who've modeled this language who had a half-two mindset with something Where either they got really angry about I think of my dad at work He would always like get really angry about stuff and eventually you'd get through it But there was always this anger phase um and On the other side of that if you're in the want-to mindset the dream of the hope for When you face setback and we can see this with like people say at the gym Who are like trying to get gains like trying to get you know ripped up her body Like I used to work in a gym as a as a younger person and so like I saw this modeled a lot um So if they're following a program and it's working for them and it's something they want nobody's making them They don't feel like they have to lift. It's like they just want to get ripped um If it's working even even if they're on a terrible program, but it's working And they're seeing progress They will persist even if it's really hard. They're going to persist. They're going to have that that perseverance They're going to persevere boom boom boom keep doing it when they plateau We've all talked about plateaus when they plateau though suddenly They're all up in your business. What protein do you what supplements do you use? What's your what's your routine? How do you get calves like that? They're curious When it's something we want and we run into a setback that stops our progress Instead of getting angry or giving up we get curious When we do see progress we persist even if it's really hard But that we can only access that if we're staying in our Want to mindset if we're staying connected to our wife or staying connected to our values and our sense of empowerment Like that's when we're going to just either get curious or we're going to persist If we slide across we don't have access to that anymore We're either going to get angry or we're going to give up And I think to me that's that is why it's so important to to like Stay in touch with those first order reasons For doing things not to slide into like well, you know, I do it because like I get to talk to people Or I do it because I like winning races or money or da da da is You're gonna you're gonna slide into that have to mindset and you're gonna be in a much less Healthy motivated sound place because you're gonna have to derive your motivation from anger right you're gonna have to get angry with yourself and angry with the world and and Like that's not a help like you can use that That's a great channel to flip to every once in a while to like muscle through some stuff But you can't live there That can't be how you get every single detail of your life done like oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna love my family tonight with anger Because I have to Not gonna work out real well Not gonna work out real well So I guess to me that's that's one of the powerful tools I use in my own life When I set these big goals and these big objectives. I have this 100 peak fkt coming up. It's huge. It's scary Like I'm gonna climb peaks by themselves that are considered Some of the hardest peaks to climb in the usa And I'm gonna link them together multiples in a day And I'm gonna do big pushes into deep back country terrain back to back to back um A lot of people don't think like I'm gonna succeed a lot of people who've done them before over the course of a lifetime Or like yeah, probably not and I have to agree with them like it's a hard enough objective There's enough things that can go wrong There's there's enough ways I can make a mistake That's costly or that a fire could break out and land gets closed or a route melts out too fast and is no longer climbable There's so many ways this thing could go wrong And it's even if everything goes right. It's such a huge undertaking it like my body could possibly not handle the load and To like go into something like that it'd be really easy to like be like, oh man I've told people like I'm gonna do this thing and like, you know People see me do 99 of these different records and and now like I have to like I have to succeed at this Because people are watching and doubted on my students and all these reasons. It's like no, no I'm going out to play in the mountains I'm going out to to Put my fingers on some rock and climate to the top of pointy things And I'm gonna get to look at the views and I'm gonna run around in the in the woods and And I'm gonna I'm gonna sometimes not eat enough and I'm gonna sometimes not drink enough water And I'm gonna hurt and it's gonna be hard And it's gonna be this huge experiment and who the hell knows what's gonna happen But man, I want to do that like that sounds awesome Like what a what a way to spend days of your life that you never have back And so from that mindset like Very different than than the mindset I just just described that could be really easy to slip into Where like all these other people's perceptions of me and I've got to carry like da da da It's like no, no, no Like all that's for them They they can keep that what they want to think about me what others want to think about me whether they're my student Or someone listening to this like that's theirs go ahead and have it um me i'm gonna go play in the mountains and I'm gonna get to come out the other side of this if it succeeds I'm gonna come out the other side of this and have memories of 100 new mountains That many many of which i've never climbed before and never even seen before so i'm i'm gonna have a more comprehensive Memory and experience of my own country A more beautiful experience of the deep back country and the nuance of the state of washington um For those for those who don't know i'm gonna i'm gonna try to tackle the washington's 100 100 highest peaks the bolgers list Which is a famous historic list of of the hundred tallest peaks of the state of washington And it's going to be a beautiful thing. I'll make sure you have a link to The uh live tracking and it'll be on the the fkt website. They'll they'll have it in there Uh people were tracking section on the landing page Um, yeah, i'm gonna try to get up. Do you run between all the peaks or do you get any transport? How does it work that for this one there? There'll be some driving some some hopping in a car But some of it's so deep in the back country that i mean there's going to be boat rides There's going to be some closed roads where I have to like bike in because it's closed to cars Um, it's it's just this insane logistical thing I mean, there's some of the peaks where the canadian border doesn't open Like they're literally so hard to get to that you cross the border go up into canada And have to get to them from canada Re-entering the united states on trail instead of on road because it's easier that way And if that doesn't reopen I have to do like a marathon of bushwhacking just to get to the peaks And then a marathon of bushwhacking back out not counting the mileage to tag the peaks And there's some of the hardest peaks to climb um with with some pretty pretty uh Solidly fifth class terrain to get around and end up to them Um, so yeah, it's just this insane undertaking where that's just one set of the mountains And like I have to have a plan like this for all the different groupings of them It's been a pretty wild undertaking And I'm super excited to go see if it all works You know, I've done all this planning and all this different conversations with people that have done them before to come up with You know, what what's the best entry and exit point for these things? Which ones can be linked together? Which ones have to be done alone? Which route is better on each of them? Um, is it possible to go up this way to save a little distance or save a little time or to not have to walk back out? Um, you know five miles just to get to the the car Can I you know cut across here and go tag a few more peaks? you know all these different things like trying to build this thing ahead of time and Now i'm going to get to go out there and like be like well, here's here's the hypothesis Does it work? Let's let's run the experiment now um So it's going to be wild it's going to be truly Honestly wild and if if I succeed i'll be the first person who's climbed them all 100 of them in a single climbing season Which will be awesome Roughly, how long do you think that will take you? If everything goes right, which is very very unlikely There's so many permits and clothes think closures and things that can happen if everything goes right right around the 50 day mark Oh quite quick fast the fastest it could possibly go is down toward the 40 day mark But that would be that's that would be really optimistic You know like no wrong turns no no no major mistakes Not even really any minor mistakes the canadian border reopens so that I can have the easy way to access those peaks that are really hard to get to um It could it could go down near 40 days potentially Wow Keep us informed Absolutely. Yeah, I'll make sure that you end up with a link so you can throw it on the show notes of this Very quickly jason. I know you've got to get off, but um Can we just talk a quick more when when you when you're running what what train it? What running shoes do you prefer? um If it's going to be mixed snow ice Trail i'll run in something like a las fortiva blizzard that has the built-in microspikes I'll carry a lightweight pair of aluminum crampons with me um If I know i'm going to run up into again glacier ice I'll usually have my ultralight uh petzel ride ice axes Uh, I really love the lakey trekking poles because of the trigger shark Locking mechanism that goes into the hand grip since for me I think they're good for anybody that's out on steep trails and technical terrain But for me what's huge about them is since that system locks in in the palm to the pole I can wail on the poles for a long trail ascent And not even have my grip closed So when I get to the rock climbing section or the the the steep ice where I need to be gripping my tools or gripping the rock My grip strength is completely fresh As opposed to having like grip, you know death grip to the poles you get there and it's like oh wait I got to wait for these to kind of like catch back up Um, so that's a game changer for me the the lakey poles with their trigger shark mechanism um Let's see here. What about a gorex jacket? Do you what kind of Jacket you do you wear? I have a rotation of things. I have some stuff from a little local company that sews right out of oregon here called northwest alpine They do some really good gear My body temperature usually runs hot. So I usually dress pretty light They've got a really great Sun hoodie rock they call it rock hoodie. That's really durable material super thin breathes really well I like that. I've got a dina fit dine fit a Wind layer that I like to use And I've been running in some of their shoes recently and I've liked those for when I'm not you know I mentioned the blizzards for when it's going to be mixed terrain Um when it's just going to be trail or dry terrain, they've been pretty good And I like the rubber for getting out on the rock with those um What else I already mentioned how I'll use a tailwind or a similar product Um that mixes in the water to kind of save pack volume. So I don't have to have as big of a pack Do you have a favorite cooker? A favorite what cooker stove? Oh, um oftentimes when I go out Uh, I'll just I'll just do all my meals cold. Um, just uh Safe way um I've used I've used the jet boil a lot though with uh for mountain guiding because I guide Um, and it's pretty good. I think there are better things out there, but It's gotten the job done in the times. I've I've done stuff They are the very uh energy efficient aren't they because they're a closed closed system They get the job done. That's for sure. Yeah, what about a tent? Do you ever sleep out? Um, if if I sleep out, I'll usually go in an ultra light bivvy type setup um You know, whether that's one of the like super light soul bivvies, um, if I'm going to be if I want to be really uncomfortable Um, or just like a waterproof bivvy over a light light sleeping bag if I'm uh, going to be out for longer Um That combos served me well in the past Have you any plans or have you done triathlon? Uh, yeah, actually that was the way I got into ultra endurance. Uh was through iron man Wow What what what's the not See, I've only done like an unofficial iron man. I I organized it myself, right? I haven't actually been in an iron I've I've been in a I've done standard distance triathlon. So the olympic distance triathlon. I've done that as an organized event um But iron man, that's something special, isn't it? They're awesome. I love Back when I was doing it, this was before the car accident that I mentioned getting injured in um I was very into it. I went to a couple 70.3 world championships I'd gotten to the level of being able to truly race That distance and I was kind of crossing the bridge to getting to where I was going to go from just finishing iron man To feeling like I could truly race my age group at the full iron man distance Um, and then that's when the car accident happened It was you know, kind of a heartbreaker back then because I'm like, oh what this is the year like I'm going to Kona like I'm on a whole another level with my training doing like 140 mile bike rides and just getting off and going for a run and feeling like I haven't done anything yet today Um, just like a a different level and then went out a car window in an accident Um, so definitely unexpected, but it put me on this path and that's why we're having a conversation Yeah so Yeah, I won't I won't delve into the car accident because it's too serious a thing to Just talk about quickly, but the the 70 30. What can you explain what that the 70 30 is or 73? What does that number represent? Oh 70.3 is the half iron man distance Yeah, because full iron man is 140.6 miles. So that means a half iron man is a total of 70.3 miles Wow, how do you get on with the swimming? Are you does that come natural? Do you find it easier in a wetsuit? I literally somehow I managed to become a lifeguard when I was young And my co-workers used to make fun of me because they're like I have literally never seen such a horrible swimmer actually pass the swim test um And I was horrific like just sheer tenacity and will Slapped my way through the pool to become a guard and so when I signed up for a full iron man Which is what you do when you're signing up for a triathlon, right? You go full iron man for your first one um I had to get a lot better obviously and that was part of why I did it is I was like this is gonna force me To do something that makes me uncomfortable Um and swimming to this day like still the thing I I don't really enjoy it. I don't get in a rhythm It's not really fun But I got to where I could hang on just well enough that I could make up the distance on the bike And then not lose much ground on the run But the biking was definitely my strength when I was in triathlons. What bike have you got? What bike did you have? I wrote a Cervelo p3 sl from 2005 so it was even an old bike back when I was doing this in 2013 2014 2015 But man super great bike love that bike still have it still have it don't don't ride that one much anymore It's more of a it holds memories kind of thing but Great bike yeah, I got a gian and They are just It's just something else, you know, it's just these carbon fiber bikes. They're just much more fun to ride because I don't know that my bike's really it's really stiff and You just get to a hill and you just go up the hill It's just that symbol whereas on a on an aluminium bike you get to a hill And then you're going to die trying to get up Trying to get up that hill so Yes, my gosh All right, you you need to get on go into what what subject you teach I teach health and PE go figure. Oh, well, that's yeah And just one last question. What's your view? On is it strava Strava? Do you have that in the u.s? I'm guessing Strava. Yes, Strava's huge in the u.s Yeah, because I started to get people saying Chris. What's your Strava and I'm like Fuck off. That's nothing to do. What I what I train is It's it's a personal thing for me. You know, I don't I don't go for times or whatever. I mean you I do occasionally if I want to get a personal best but it it's not I don't want to share that with the world because it's almost like a sacred thing or a spiritual thing for me But do you have any views on this? I don't even use it now. I just I put my stopwatch on I don't think at the minute. I just run Strava Strava is a tool that can be misused or used well. It's it's a gamification of your Endurance process your growth process as an athlete, right? It gives you a sense of reward and progress It gives you a sense of achievement As you you know, you could think of it like the video game character you're playing is yourself So the only way you advance in the game is by actually becoming better yourself So for some people that can be a hugely motivating and fun thing to go out and compete with your friends on segments to For me, it's super useful that I have data exact data tracked Since 2012 or 13 when I got on it So I can go back and look and be like, oh that worked really well when I was riding the bike Like look look at the kind of performances I had after that training block So it's useful in that sense I think where people can go go off the rails with it is like with any social media if it starts owning your life You know if if it's all about getting the kudos and it's all about getting the You know koms and the course records and stuff like that Then it's really easy for it to become an unhealthy thing That's causing you to train in a way that breaks your body down instead of making your body stronger So if you're a person that doesn't deal with that well when when other people are watching so to speak you start to perform too much You know, it might be healthy to you know, take a step down from it or to If you notice that you're following those patterns to like find a way to check it or not not use the the app But I think for some people it can be really useful and it can be a lot of fun. It just depends on how you use it Yeah, go and say hello to your wonderful students And let us know how you get on on on on these climbs We'll do it's been a it's been a pleasure talking with you. I had so much fun chris. Um, we should do this again Maybe when I'm done. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, that'll be be good to hear how you get on So as I always say get out there and smash it I'll do my best and you likewise. Yeah, take no prisoners Jason all the best mate take care Thanks for coming on the show to everybody at home if you could like and subscribe and we'll see you next time. Cheers. Cheers Cheers