 Okay, welcome back. Just a reminder for all the students online to ensure that you finish your assessment by the end of next week so that because these count for your final grades. Also the e-learning students also, both the assessments to be completed by the 26th of April so that you have access to your certificates. Okay, so quickly let's do a recap. What were the ethical considerations? Francis, seven, you'd like to share? First one is combustion, second one is competence, third one is consent, fourth one is confidentiality, fifth one is cultural regard, sixth one is collegiality and seventh one is community presence. Very good, let's give him a big hand. Okay, very good. Francis attended the class. Okay, the last that we're going to be looking at is boundaries. What are some boundaries that we have to maintain? So what's the meaning of boundaries? Something that indicates a certain limit, okay, a limit or a border and why is it needed for us to have a professional boundary or what is a professional boundary? It's that framework that we work within that make our relationships safe and also have limits for how we may deliver some of our services. Okay, so what is the need? It is something that helps you build your own personal identity over some over a point of time. Okay, so what does that mean? One is it helps you to understand your own roles and responsibilities. That's what we mean by having a sense of personal identity as a counselor. What are your roles and responsibilities that you need to give out? How do you conduct yourself within those roles and responsibilities? Okay, now, no matter what is going on that is even if there are emotional ups and downs or any kind of pressure that is there on the outside, you continue maintaining those the way that you work, right? The responsibility that you have as a counselor. So you don't lose yourself, let's say in a counseling relationship, or you shouldn't be over-involving yourself because you think that will increase the well-being of your counseling. Okay, you got that? You don't lose yourself in such a way that you know you're worrying about them and you're so burdened and you know you lose sleep. Neither are you so over-involved that because you think that only if you do that will the counseling be well. Okay, so there are certain identities, certain practices that you as a counselor needs to maintain and that's why these boundaries are there. So you're the one who sets those boundaries and you're the one who manages those boundaries, like for example, in counseling someone comes to you and says, oh, you're just like my son, okay, or you're just like my daughter or you're just like my father, you're just like my mother. So who sets those boundaries? Who's the one who should be setting that boundary? You are the one who's setting the boundary, right? Your counseling may come and say you're just like my son and may come in and probably bring you food or bring you, let's say, come and give you a hug and call you in the night and all of that, that's where you establish some of those boundaries. It's important to manage some of those boundaries. Okay, yeah, so that's what it means by the line between the self of the counseling and the self of the counselor, there is that firm boundary line that should be maintained just like how you would do in any professional setting, right? Like even in college, even as you are in college, there's a certain boundary that you maintain, right? You may, yes, discuss personal things, but still there is a, the boundary line is always, is to be maintained. Did I come off the screen or you are able to see? You are able to see the presentation? Okay, sorry, I can't see it. I'm just going to share it again. Okay, all right. So now why is it important that we talk about these boundaries is because we have the ability to better recognize boundary issues as they arise. I'll give you examples and you will understand that because if you don't, like for example, one of the boundaries is you never counsel a family member, your husband, your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, you don't counsel them. So when you know about these boundaries, you're able to recognize them when they arise. So when someone says some family member comes to you, you've done Christian counseling, come and counsel me. You know that it's a boundary, that it's best not to counsel someone who's a family member, all right? Boundaries help you clarify ethical expectations. It tells you, like we spoke about those seven ethics, it helps you clarify that, right? Like when it means confidentiality or when it means competence or being collegiality, you know where it is that you have to place that boundary. It's important to talk about boundaries because you have a clear idea of where your boundaries are because unless we specify something, we don't know whether it's right or wrong. And you also have a plan of action in case those boundaries are mismanaged or they are violated, you know what to do if those boundaries are mismanaged. Okay. Boundaries also reduce the risk of counseling exploitation. For example, you're a counselor, someone's come to you and you have fallen in love with your counseling. Okay. Now that has happened many times that's happened when you fall in love with your counseling or, you know, you do some favors for them because they remind you of your, maybe your son, your daughter or whatever, right? So it reduces when there are these boundaries, it reduces the risk that you're exploiting somebody. Like for example, maybe the counseling is your neighbor. You're coming for counseling, no? So just give me a ride also, right? So that's what we mean by risk of counseling exploitation. You're not using your counseling for your roles that are very clear. Maybe communication happens only on a face-to-face or if it's on a phone, it'll be a five minute call. The rest of it will be you know, in a conversation or, you know, we, there aren't, you know, we don't visit each other's homes. All of that, there is certain rules and roles that are identified. Okay. It also increases the well-being of the counselor. You do not have to be afraid to draw those boundaries, right? In order to feel good or be nice, you must ensure that your well-being is protected. And lastly, it actually provides a role model for counselors. When you are, when you have certain boundaries, it actually teaches your counselors also to maintain some boundaries that are needed. Okay. Okay. We look at, okay, who negotiates the boundaries? It is you as a counselor. It's your duty to negotiate it. And you are the one who's ultimately responsible for also managing those boundary issues, right? You can't say, you know, the counseling, like for example, as I said, the counseling is fallen in love with me. I can't do anything. She's the one who brings cake and I take it. I don't have anything, but then I take it. But then the fact is that you've taken it, right? So you're the one who are responsible to manage that. And it, you should have a clear understanding of ethics and boundaries. Okay. So what are clear boundary areas? You generally don't plan social activities with your counselors going for lunch, going for dinner. Those aren't very helpful. Now you may be thinking, how is this practical in a church setting? I'll come to that a little later. Okay. Having sex with your counselors or having family members or friends as counselors, all of this are very, very clear boundary areas. You hear? Okay. A counselor should not be your lover, your relative, your employee, your employer, your instructor, your business partner, your friend, anyone who you have personal relationships with. Okay. Okay. No, no, you should not counsel it. Yeah, your lover, your relative. Why? Let's look at why. There's an emotional connection you have with them. That's one. Secondly, you probably know a lot about them already. And you already have a bias. Yes. And so that bias is operational when you are counseling them, isn't it? Right? So it's best not to, because we can't always be so aware that we are unbiased. So it's best not to. Okay. So instructor, business partner, friend, all of this, because you may know something about people that could be like a struggle in your own counseling session. Okay. It's not that you can't marry your friend. That's not what I meant. Okay. I hope that's clarified. It's you don't counsel them. Okay. Which means that means you have married your counseling, if they become your partner, isn't it? Yeah, which you shouldn't be doing. No, I didn't follow on it once again. Yes, you should not, you should avoid not have a relationship with your counseling. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So areas where boundaries may blur. Okay. So what happened? Do you have a question? Ask to you. So you say you don't want to counsel them. That's, that is your worry. So you don't see if you, now what I think what you're saying is you're a counselor, you like somebody and they've come to you for counseling. Right. Coincidence. Okay. Whatever. I'll come to that. I'll come to that. That's, that's a slide I'll come to. Okay. This way talking about, let's say those who are in a more professional kind of a setting. Okay. All right. Now, remember that many boundary issues may not be that clear cut and there may be certain blurring of it. And this can sometimes becoming a, they can be a problem. But these are areas we need to be very careful about. Self disclosure. How much you disclose to your counseling. Right. It's, it's a skill. It's something that you can do. But you have to be careful because it can create certain issues and problems. Second, giving or receiving gifts. Like sometimes, you know, as a counselor, because I've worked, I've got gifts like people bring sweets. So it probably depends on what kind of give, let's say it's an expensive gift, I will refuse. If it's something like sweets or so, I'll say, you know, it may be good to give it to the office so that everyone can have. So in that way, what are you actually communicating to them? Yeah. So, you know, there are some things if it's or you're saying this is, I mean, I'm not personally, what do you say, personally influenced by the gift. Okay. But but then you can actually give it to the office. If it's things like food or sweets, chocolates, so give it to the office and, you know, let it, it's fine. Right. But if they're like, say expensive gifts, you can very clearly say we do not entertain that. Okay. Now here, dual or overlapping really. Yeah. Even there, you've got to be very, very careful because these are all blurred boundaries. Some are okay, some aren't okay. But you can't say okay, because the last two people who bought me something was well, you know, it was a gratitude and this is not something else. So that's why that's why we have these boundaries. Yeah. Or, or, you know, you don't know when one something will slip. So the best thing to do is to keep a standard practice that any gifting or any of that, like, even when they do bring it, maybe initially, you, you know, you can refuse it. Okay. Dual or overlapping relationships. Now, what does this do? Now, this is, this is where maybe we, like in a church where we have counsellors, this is where this comes in. There are different kinds of relationships. Like for me, I have a lot of people that I meet on a Sunday morning. Right. I talk to as friends or not, not as friends, but as acquaintances of people that I know as church members, but they may also come in for counselling. Okay. So these are what we call is dual or overlapping relationships. And this also has to, we have to be very careful, but in a church setting, sometimes this is unavoidable. Right. It is unavoidable. Unless of course, the counsellor is not part of the church and comes just to sit there. But there is another, another part of it. Because people may know me as or know the counsellor as a member of the church, they may not want to come to you also. Right. Because they fear that, you know, there'll be judgment or all of that. So we have both sides of it. But in a church setting, sometimes like I said, it's unavoidable. And that's why we've got to be careful. Like even and, you know, something that I keep in mind and I do very carefully is that let's say someone has spoken about something in a counselling room and I meet them in church. I will make sure that I don't talk about that there. I don't. All that is discussed only in the counselling room. Profession is profession. So then here we talk about different things or, you know, whatever thing, but then if they bring us in, let's, we'll meet for a session or we'll talk at that time. Let's keep it to that. So I'm very, very sure that I do that. Okay. So that's what happens. Sometimes there is this kind of it is inevitable in a setting like ours. Right. Okay. Becoming friends. Again, this, you may like, again, in a church setting, you may have started to counsel someone, but then in time, the person feels extremely friendly to you. Right. And then maybe after a year, they come to you and say, I want counseling. That time you can very clearly say, you know, our friendship has grown from where it was. Maybe you should probably meet somebody else. Okay. Or physical contact on the way, any kind of physical proximity that may be there. Okay. Now what are the danger zones when you're looking at boundaries? What are danger zones? One is to over identify with the, you have a question, Francis? You have, no? Okay. Is over identifying with the counseling's issues? That is, let's suppose you have the same problem or you had the same problem as the counseling and you over identify with it. So much so that you're so involved that they should sort it out in your pace, in your time, in the way that you have. That's what is called as over identification. Danger zones is when you have a strong attraction to the counseling may not, no, no, not friend. This is counseling, a counseling who has a similar problem like you did or you do. And so you over identify with them and really, you know, yeah, that it's almost become personal to you. Their problem has become personal to you. That's what that over identification is. Okay. Strong attraction. Now this is not just romantic attraction. It can be any other thing like, you know, you like the person's personality or, you know, like something about them that can be a danger zone. What would happen if you have a strong attraction to your counseling? Okay, apart from that, yeah, so we're not objective in our questions or in the way that we help them. Yes, we become emotionally attached. Yes. Spending time with the counseling outside of work or work area or sharing unnecessary personal information with the counseling. All right. Okay, what are we supposed to be doing? So certain do's and don'ts is to respect cultural differences. So do not use gestures, tone of voice expressions or any other behavior that a counseling should interpret as seductive, sexually demeaning or sexually abusive. Okay, so being very careful of how we do, like for example, in some cultures, you know, you looking at them at the eye like that is very suggestive. Looking into the eyes, staring into the eyes, not looking staring into their eyes or let's say shaking a hand and continuously holding the hand can be suggestive. So being very clear that you do not do what you may understand, maybe culturally inappropriate. So maintain safe boundaries. No, not that when you are actually probably staring at them or, you know, just keep looking like that, you know, or, you know, looking at their body that way, all of that, right? Not normal conversations, but something that seems more uncomfortable. Okay, not making comments about the counseling's body or clothing. All right, being careful. Do not engaging in inappropriate affectionate behavior with a counseling, whatever that may be. Okay, like anything that you feel or sense that could be misunderstood or misconstrued. Okay, do not talk about your own sexual preference, fantasies or problems. These are all don'ts. Do not request a date with your counseling. Do not meet personal needs in other areas of your life. You're coming that way, please buy me one kg of potato income. Okay, so not getting your personal needs met and ensure that you do maintain supervision or consultation relationships. That is, in case you have difficult counsellors, it's always good to have someone like a supervisor to help you through that counseling process. Okay, all right. Now the rule of dual relationships, like I said, dual relationships are those where you as a counsellor may have a multiple role. You may be a counsellor, you may be a church member, you may be a, I don't know, life group member. There may be different roles that you are playing. This is when you have more than one role with your counsellor and these relationships can often blur those boundaries. Okay, and when these blurring happens is when the roles become extremely confused. So that's why you've got to be extremely careful about how you relate with someone like that. If you do find that the relationship has become much more stronger, it's best to send them to somebody else, give them, ensure that they have, that they see someone else. Okay, remember that not all counselling interactions are dual relationships. Like for example, if you run into a counsellor at a social event, right, you may be in a market or you may be in a wedding and you see that same person there. It's okay, right? Or if your counsellor is a waiter in your restaurant that you're going to. Okay, the important thing at that point and what I think and what I feel is a good thing to do is like for example, once I went to meet a friend in a hospital and one of the doctors in that hospital is my, it's my counsellor. So I was sitting with my friend for coffee in the cafeteria and this doctor came and sat right opposite. Okay, so I caught his attention, I saw him, he saw me, but I didn't show as if I know him, but he said I and I said hi. So this friend asked me, how do you know him? I said I know him from another environment, that's what I said. But later I called him and I told him the reason why I didn't acknowledge you was because of this, that you know I don't want because people know that I'm a counsellor and those who may see me in a different environment may think that okay, maybe you've counseled that person, why have they counseled? So then I called him and I told him the reason why I didn't acknowledge you was that I didn't want her to know or even have the smallest inkling that you have come to me for help. So he said he understood and he appreciated that. So that's something that you can do. You don't, you don't have to acknowledge them if they don't acknowledge you and later, because sometimes your counsellors will just pretend as if they don't know you and that is because they don't want others to know that they are associated with you. All right, like for example, there are times that people don't come to the church office for counseling. They don't. So they either speak on the phone or we meet at another place because they don't want the rest of the, and so you respect that. So that's what I meant by these interactions sometimes may not always be due. So how you participate in the interaction will determine the outcome. So what you do, how you participate really will be the way that they respond. Okay, now there is an exemption to this ethical code as pastors or unlicensed pastoral counsellors by law or regulation are not typically required to hold the same standard of professional conduct as licensed counsellors. Nevertheless, they recognize moral, ethical imperatives that may still exist as part of Christian ethics, which means as a pastor, you don't fall in love with your, maybe with your counsellor or all of that. So there are those ethical Christian ethics that you still hold, even though some of these rules or ethics may not be completely applicable for pastors. Life, no, like for example, no, no, not that you don't need to like consent. You're not going to take a consent to every person who comes and talks to you as a pastor, right? You're not going to say, okay, give me a consent and write, you can't probably do that, right? You can't do that or let's say this collegiality, right? Now, maybe a pastor at the first interaction with them may not know what their background or what other professionals they have seen, right? So because it's their quick interactions, right? So they may pray for healing, right? All of that they may do. So some of this, they may not be as strong boundaries as the other one, but of course, competence, ensuring that, you know, you not violate the dignity, all of that are principles that we think, but like confidentiality, probably something that the wife is sharing, he may say, you know, please bring your husband in without a written consent. You get that? So some of these may not be completely applicable for them because they are, it is, it's a different role that a pastor is playing, okay? All right? Okay. Any questions? So the pastor who's done professional counseling generally will not give suggestions. So remember the role of a pastor and the role of a counselor are very different, right? So you have to differentiate that when you're having the role of a pastor, you admonish, you correct, you know, you guide, you discipline, that's the role of a pastor who's a shepherd. Counseling, exactly, right? So that's why if you look at it, you know, that distinction, I know it's very, very thin, but that distinction is probably helpful. Like, you know, this is coming as a pastor and that's why a lot of places have counselors who will take care of other kind of issues. But as a pastor, that role is very, very different. It's not a counseling role there. It's a role of a shepherd, okay? All right. We're open to questions. We're officially done as of now, but open to questions. And one quest, first question comes from Francis. You had a question? Huh? You already asked. Okay. Anybody else? Online students? Anyone? Speak into the mic. Can counseling be done in other places? If not in offices, can a counselor meet a counselor over coffee shop and have counseling sessions like that, they can do. So generally, professional counseling is done in a designated place, right? But like I said, it depends on what role you're playing. You know, if you have like, like, like for me, there are sometimes I've seen people at a coffee shop because they don't do not want to come to the office or they come to my house. So that there is another place where there is anonymity. Mostly based on the counseling. Yeah. The counseling. So they may tell you, I feel uncomfortable. Can we have it somewhere else? So that's how I'm, and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can keep that, you know, this is going to be one hour. We're going to be just talking about this. That boundary is something you can set prior itself. Okay. Any other questions? Okay, I have a question. Has this made anyone in this group or the group here want to learn about counseling more? Oh, wow, I've got five here. Or six, the sixth one came later. But yeah. What about in the group in the, do you feel that you'd like to know counseling more? That'd be a great thing. I think it's a job well done then. No response. Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you all so much. Thank you for the last 15 weeks for, for the, for just learning through the entire course and pray that it's a blessing. You can use some of this even in your interactions with others. So let's just close with a word of prayer and I'll ask Anand to close with prayer.