 Okay, I think we should get going here. Our next topic is we're going to talk about grafting apple trees and I said why would you graft an apple tree? And I was My answer Todd, then I'll hear yours. Yeah, this is what happens. I'll just say yeah, that sounds good This is what happens a lot. You move into a house and you have an apple or a crab apple tree You want to plant a superior variety. Let's say like honeycrisp But you don't have room to plant another apple tree on your on your existing crab or apple in your landscape So wallah you can find a honeycrisp tree in the neighborhood or you can buy a scion and you can Create your own honeycrisp branch on your apple. It's a tough one to surpass. I'm gonna try though That's a great way. Another way would be is say for example a loved one had planted a tree and It's a variety that's not real common anymore and it's an okay eating variety But they passed on and you'd like to remember them you can take cuttings from that graft it on and kind of keep that Memory going so that that's that's another way to not as fun as yours But you know I'll tell you that's a really if you look it's like some of these like Catalogs like the old st. Lawrence nurseries you look at their apple listing of cultivars It's over a hundred. There's lots of heirloom varieties that have some special quality special flavors to them and You're not gonna find a lot of these varieties From your local garden center, but there's a lot of heirlooms that are or sometimes how to get the question Can you please tell me what variety this is this apple? I love these apples, but I don't want variety well, you don't have to know the variety just take a cutting from it and There you go. You got your you got your own secret mysterious variety that tastes great I always tell them it's a Tom Kelp and I say kind of a dignity is that the older variety called Tom Kelp? It's not very common really great apple and um, and they usually buy that and I go on Okay, Todd now we're done with the nonsense. Let's get some serious discussion here So please welcome Todd Weinman. He's our agricultural natural resources agent in Cass County Todd welcome to the forum. Thanks Tom and thanks for not leaving while I'm talking What one thing before we get started here, I want to show that Tom did provide medical Equipment in case I do cut myself or someone else during this so this we're not promoting this brand But um, we do have one in case someone were to get hurt here We'll get started here with the basics and and keep in mind that what I what I described to you might be slightly different might be Exactly the same as what you've done or learned or maybe don't know at all, but there's more than one way of doing this Three basic parts of the apple tree that you should know are the roots obviously the bottom portion the sign and the graft When you see an apple tree like this you might think oh, it's just one tree But really there are two trees combined into one here this this apple state fair apple It's called is grafted on to a semi dwarf rootstock the semi dwarf rootstock is Very like more than likely a crab apple variety of some sort or a variety that has no flavor But does very well in our climate here Many people will say well, I want a nice apple tree, but I don't want such a giant apple tree like a standard rootstock So I would say a semi dwarf or a dwarfing rootstock and also the standard rootstock Sometimes I find that they have a hard time surviving here in in North Dakota Many people say to when is a great time to to start this? I'd like to do this Can I do it anytime of the year the best time that I found is April May time? But it's not exact plants can't read and therefore you can always go like oh when the crappies start biting in this in the spring Or when the the tulips are three inches tall or find some other type of little oh Story that you want to think of but but those are also accurate times for when to start doing this The techniques that you can use different knives the biggest thing with the knives. They have to be sharp laser sharpened surgical steel These these things will cut through bone basically There isn't there is you never grabbed the dull knife That's just your way to go into the into an emergency room or hospital There's a number of different shapes and sizes I like one just a regular looks like a little regular pocket knife and on the end it has a little real dull edge and This dull edge I used to help pry open the The dull edge I used to help pry back the bark a little bit because if I use the other edge I would basically just slice the bark right apart. Now if you look at this knife That's little dull edges right on the opposite side. Now. I'm not Well comfortable enough to use a knife like this For popping it open without slamming showing my fingers and so I'll use this to graft and cut but When I start prying back the bark, I'll use something like this for my little doll edge on it The first first graph we're going to try is or we're going to do is called a t-bud What I what I like to do is take make a capital t-shaped cut into Into my my rootstock and now this is quite large for what I usually do But the ones I ordered didn't come in and this is the smallest tree I could find in the state And so what I'm going to do is don't I'll make a little just for demonstration purposes Make a little cut right here. Usually I use newer wood, but for this I'm just gonna do this So it cuts right into that without a problem I'll get rid of this This is where Tom's Band-Aid comes in handy. They were cut toward yourself I also brought a lot for as long because as you know, Applewood is very hard Someone will clean that up or just leave it till next year if I get invited back And I'll just kind of make a nice capital t-shaped cut in there Close this end if you want to keep your fingers Hopefully made it deep enough. I'll use both hands because I I can do that And you see this nice light green colored wood underneath here right underneath the bark That's your form. That's the living tissue You don't want to damage that and our and time is kind of of an essence here So we're not gonna just I'm just gonna make it now describe it a little bit here So for this I'm gonna find a nice little bud on here This one is not what I want Can be a little picky as you see so I cut that bud right in half. Fortunately, I have another one right here Also noticed to and maybe can't see but I do have clean disease-free wood Very important. You don't want to graft anything that's diseased or filled with insects onto something else Take my little non-sharp end That was not a terminal bud Was Amanda. Um, this wasn't a terminal bud. No, um, you could use a terminal bud Or you could drop it on the floor like that I'll get another one Remember I can't chew gum and talk and so if you say anything to me I know that I can't I'm more close. I'm more clumsy. Please ask questions if it helps with comic relief here Maybe I'm a little picky with it. I don't I Guess as far as a terminal bud, you could use one. I haven't here Slide that in here same orientation that it was growing before You want the the flume to touch each other so they're nice and snug in here And now You can use there's there's a ton of different types of tape out there. Um, I Just bought a couple and this is more this type right here is more of a parafilm wax type And it's very pliable and it will rot according to the instructions So I get that a little bit lower and I just start snugging it up like this and in theory It'll rot off once this starts to grow Now you get up to here get it above the bud Some people go over the bud a little bit. You want to make sure all the xylem is covered And you can tie it on there Ideally what you want now is once this starts to grow you have success It'll start to grow you clip this top part off right here and this will become the new leader This here will you and then you from here on up is the new variety of of apples that you get So the top part will be this and the bottom will be that Now let's say you just like you know what I just want to mess with my relatives or my friends They're gone for the weekend. They have an all-red apple. I want to put purple yellow Whatever can apple on here. Well, you can do that too. They're gone for the weekend What I'm gonna do is the right tool take and cut Nice clean cut now that would have damaged this wood or the xylem, but we're not worried about it right on the ends there This is where the band-aid part comes in again It's not supposed to split like that, but we'll try it again Not really good at piano or anything. So that helps some people take a little a little hammer and tap on there, but um, I found that a little bit over zealous What I've made is a nice cleft graft here or cleft here now for a cleft graft I'm going to take this one right here. I want to match it up to about the same Diameter if you can to get both sides Cut at an angle go to the other side this inner wood really hasn't a lot of value to it Now Line this up a little bit too long yet Left a little on it As you can see the xylem and the and actually the flume with the xylem is good right here This is our part that we really want to take with them right here So it should be the same diameter And the more you do this especially if it's your friend or neighbor's tree the better you'll get at it and Get that lined up there Get sure you can use electricians tape too um And that is supposed to rot off in time masking tape does not but this is not masking tape This is um special grafting masking tape and that's supposed to rot off. Um, but just remember plants can't read and Therefore you might have to um See how it goes Now this here one Might be a little bit misleading You won't always know if this actually took until the plant starts to bud and if this one starts budding And um everything's looking good and it's been on there for a few months and nothing's going wrong with it This is budding. This is budding I'd say you're great But don't be out here just kind of I wonder if it's still on because um That that will not be good for what you want to do This here one a little but and so with this branch I would just leave this branch and then we'd have a brand new variety of apples They welcome they're all red this one's yellow. What happened? And then you can make up any kind of stir you want they won't know or If you want to just you know put a little bud here You cut this off as this grows from here on up will be a brand new thing People say well, how many different types can you put on an apple tree? That I don't know but I've heard up to 14 with success. Um, which is a lot of varieties and um One nice thing what I've done here is I've grafted um this um state fair apple which is an earlier Um apple probably late august august sometime with a variety that's done after good hard frost in september So what in theory what will happen is I'll have apples for an extended period of time You know, I'll get the earlier flush is like, oh, yeah apples. This is great and later on I'll have a different apple It'll be nice and fresh from the tree where these are starting to become overripe and such and um That's um just something that you can kind of consider to what what you want to do is graft onto varieties that you like to eat though um As far as um, can you graft on to? um Crab apples. Yes, you can a lot of the a lot of trees are grafted Especially dogo crab and there's a number of different crab apples that you can graft on to I prefer grafting onto smaller trees. Maybe about oh two and a half three four feet high. Um, seems to be Trees that I like that have the most success with People say well, how can you get good at this practice and take your time and patience? Um, don't drink a lot of caffeine beforehand. So you're shaky um Don't have anything to drink and and just just be ready to go and have a good time But but remember these knives are extremely sharp as you saw when I was doing it. It just flipped right off um Good thing tom wasn't there. Who knows what would have happened But um, I want to talk about like just one quick story. Look at time here. Yes, we do. Okay. Um Um, when I the very first time I did this was in South Dakota about 18 years ago and You have to be very careful with people that come if you if you go to if you teach a class people that are over confident and and they they Portray that they know a lot, but they really don't and so I had a man come in He had grafted apple trees since before I was born and all this and so I had beautiful knives from Sweden. They were fantastic just fantastic knives I had gotten some money and I bought them handed them out to the class We all started grafting. He pulled out a buck knife and immediately sliced open his hand blood everywhere I almost passed out and so now um when people when I put on this class I do not have anyone bring their own knives. You just can't um, I'm not too big on having kids there just because you know kids want to grow up and have their fingers, but um You know, you get adults in your class and and they're they're fairly competent and not shaky I would say fine, but but don't let them use their own knives Um disease free and then also a tom had talked about earlier too. Um limited space Um, there's an excellent example if you have for example, just one tree in your yard It's a crab apple tree or a regular eating apple and you want to do something where you get more apples This is a this is a great way to start that and so that's something to do. Um, let's see here Oh, um too bad. I can't quiz people but um one question and I'll answer it is um When you have an apple orchard If everyone ever had the opportunity to go and pick your own apples, which is is fun Especially a great family event to go and eat apples and pick them you get way too many and never eat them all But anyways, you look down these beautiful rows of apple trees and then all of a sudden you see What is that? It's just why is that little tree in there? It's a it's a crab apple or something It's for pollination. Um, the these are not Trees that are self pollinating. They need another another apple tree to pollinate And that's the thing too say you live someplace and there were no apples anywhere And you only had room for one apple you could graft onto this A crab apple just a little crab apple even and you would be perfectly fine the bees would come I know a friend of mine did that. Um And then the thing was he goes gee that You know his wife later I go gee that one branch It always has these little terrible apples and she cut it off and then the next year Well, there were no apples. So you know you explain it to them and I think they got divorced But um, you know, it's one of those things where um, they want to happen if they were known about this So to save your marriage I would suggest that you learn how to graft Yeah You get some communication issues communication issues All right, is there any question or else I got some more but let's maybe answer some questions first So, uh If the leader was broken off can you graft a new bud onto it? Okay, so it you'll say the leader's broken off a deer or neighbor kid climbed this and broke it in half or whatever Could you graft on what I would do is I would clean it up if it's all raggedy and stuff and I'd clip it And I would look at it and I might actually even go further down just in case disease got in here And I'd put a little like a little tea bud Um If it was nice and narrow like this, I'd put one of these cleft grafts on there. There's also a bark graft Let's say you had a large branch like this and it broke off from Who knows what? Um, you could cut that off With a chainsaw or the best you can and you drive and I don't remember the terminology what the tool is called But it's like a it's like a wedge and you drive that in there and you could put On each end of those wedges Basically a cleft graft just like we did here And many times some if you haven't if you for example inherit an old orchard is like oh these trees are dying But they were so nice and I've seen this before where they've cut them and they've grafted onto those and in the hopes that Something strong would take over and usually my understanding is they leave one of them But they might put on several and just to get something going They and they'll keep the best one And so that so yeah And that bark That bark graft is described in the last page of the handout There's a drawing there for you and that's like kind of seen for large stock right you do that. Yeah a large tree How about our dolgo crab apple tree still available? Oh, sure. Yeah in the nurseries There's many time carry up almost any nursery I would think would have them unless something's happened the last couple years where they're No longer available. I would just go to your local nursery and say Can you order me a dolgo crab and they'll say well, they were all wiped up You know that I'm sure they could get them. I don't know unless something weird has happened. Nothing's weird It's possible. I don't know everything like Tom. Well, no, that's that don't say that Dolgo that's the for dolgo. It's very common crab apple and I've seen them in uh I've seen them in nurseries in north dakota So just they're widely available. They're they're a nice nice hearty Crab apple for here. It's a good. Yeah, it's a good one Yeah, it's okay How about can you graft a winter apple onto a summer apple? I'm not sure what what that means Probably a winter apple would be a late ripening apple that you eat the fruits in during winter time You sure could yeah Yeah, well, yeah, that that would be that would be um an ideal thing to do Like for example, um when I first planted apple trees at my parents home and they started to produce 1,000 apples per tree. I'm guessing I went out there late june for right after a june drop and that's when they're not when they'll drop in In june july time The apples that are not pollinated or fertilized will fall off the tree and everyone panics But still after that there are a tremendous amount of apples and I would go through and pick those all off until There's only like 200 per tree and they get quite large So you can graft a winter apple on a summer apple, but Todd can you graft? Among different species like how about can I graft a plum on an apple? I would no no if You can't they just don't the genetics are too far apart. Um If you could I mean it would be fantastic But for one other thing and it's a different kind of wood all together. Um, it's just um, it's just not gonna work Not like your citrus you can I'm not all that familiar. I've never done it but I have seen citrus where they've kind of messed with them a little bit but um apples and apples, you know and You know different varieties of apples I sit down there, but not um, you don't see a grapefruit on an apple tree or anything Like that, right? They're not compatible, right? And we don't want we don't need to talk about citrus. This is for north Dakota gardeners, right, right? Uh, but how about even a pear and an apple? Now that I don't know pretty close. They are close. It's gonna work though, but um, you know one time, um I was down in brookings and I saw that they had grafted a lilac onto an ash Stump and it was blooming. Now the thing with that is though. He only lasted it one season You know just kind of messed with it and and who knows what else they did with it So, you know, if if it did work, it'd be so temporary. It'd be kind of a huge waste of time So I wouldn't do that. You know How about is is when you look at when you choose a scion? Is the winter hardiness of the scion an important consideration? Um, maybe I'll add to that as far as winter hardiness. Yes, but also you want to you want to keep in mind that Um The storage say you go out in the fall and and you harvest your scion Wood you want to keep that wood between 32 and 40 degrees like maybe in a refrigerator crisper if you're not married something like that and If it gets below that you start to get tissue damage and and things have real problems with with um surviving So I would say um storage is good um About this point dotat. Let's say uh, they really like Granny Smith or something that's Not hardy in North Dakota. If I grafted a granny smith on a doggle crab Would it survive North Dakota? Yeah, I've never seen that. I don't believe that it would it just isn't tough enough to um You know for the climate that it's grown in it would be fine But here it'd be either too cold or there's something that there's a reason they're not doing it for right now and I would say no, you know It'd be nice, but but she can't have everything. You can't have everything. It's not gonna work. Sorry our winter's too brutal Uh, can you teabud graft on lateral shoots? Or just on the main trunk? I prefer to do lateral shoots or the main trunk if it's smaller. This one is pretty big I like to do it when the trees are a lot younger. Um, this tree is is a little bit older But obviously for demonstration purposes if that if it's um younger more supple tissue You have a better chance of it taking Okay, uh, speaking of taking what type of graphing have you had the most success with? Uh, the most success I've had is with with tea budding Yeah, I've I've had the most success with that. Um cleft. I think what happens is like you saw me It's like, uh, that's not quite perfect not quite perfect. I think by the time I'm done Whittling it down to the perfect size. It actually dries out. I think that I'm too slow with it I don't I don't do it all. It's just I do it once a year. So I'm not very that that proficient at fast So can you uh graft on to a 25 year old crab apple tree or sure? Yeah, sure, you know, even like let's say it was one that um I don't know somebody ran hit it with a truck and the branches are broken You could take a chainsaw or something cut it and do like um a bark graft on there You could try that or even just a little branch like um, you know, I prefer the younger wood But you could do older wood. This is easier to work with the younger wood Here's a situation where the rabbits took off all the bark All the way around about two and a half feet off the ground So the girl did two and a half feet off the ground Can the upper buds be grafted onto the lower trunk? That'd be called a bridge graft and I've tried that and have six and have failed every single time Um whenever I've done that so I've heard of people that have done that and it's been successful But I've never had it work for me. Um, I don't know why I'm not getting it to work But um, it's hard. I've seen that but this tree is only one and a half inches in diameter too. So it's a pretty young tree. Yeah Just get a start a new just Buy a new one or just make the cut you got two and a half feet Oh, if it's two and a half feet you could graft right below that. Sure. Yeah, just put a you can put one All those bud things right Right, uh, just you know remove the damaged tissue and just put a bud graft around there. That would be perfect. Yeah How many years before a bud graft bears fruit? I kind of depends. Um, sometimes I have actually cut off All the little um spurs and I've grafted those on and and you could get an apple Probably that year, but that's cheating Um, it just depends it takes forever It seems like sometimes if for example if this were to take off and this branch right here I would say maybe with my luck, um five or six years at the earliest I just don't have um, whenever I've done trees that they just take forever I'd say five or six years I know that some people have cheated and put things on them and made them go faster But I don't do that. So okay, so he's not be patient. Yeah patient. This is a patient sport right here Can you graft onto a flowering crab? Yes, you sure can any kind any kind of crab apple tree. Yeah Here's the con comment Top jim wall at top working tends to increase winter hardiness By about one hardiness zone level. Wow. So if it's a marginal Tree you might get away with it. Sure. So like if jim said it, it's got to be true probably I believe it That's a manual experience and knowledge that jim is um, quite excellent at grafting. So Not i'm even more nervous than I promise That the whole grafting world watching me and we're taping this all of a sudden I just drift away. Yeah, how about uh Oh, let's see if you guys let's stay with the grafting as much as we can. Okay We're just gonna we're gonna veer off a little bit into general stuff to your time Do you got a recommendation about when's the best time and what's the best method of pruning an apple tree? That's the best time I've always told that when you prune a tree it was when the saw is sharp, but as far as apple trees, I would say that You don't want to do it when the fire blight and so Don't do when it's actively growing like if you're gonna prune it I'd probably prune it now or this fall after it gets kind of miserable tomorrow But the best day is tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow That's but the day after won't work. Well, you have to do before the growth begins Do it now do it now But not the summer best time And the best method for pruning an apple tree Well, you just That's a that's we don't have enough time for all it just open up the tree to get more sunlight and more air into it One thing with that too is um When you whenever you prune a tree, I don't take off more than 25 of what I guess the leaf area is So like a good killer of trees is uh is a man who just got a brand new chain saw and he's gonna prune his tree He might as well just make one cut at the bottom because it's it's done So how about those rabbits are a problem Todd? Can we save a tree that's chewed by rabbits around the whole stem by wrapping it No, if the well if the If the living tissue the flown is damaged underneath it's too late Now if they just chewed a little hole here, there's a good chance that'll fill right in But if it's all the way around and the green tissue is eaten off No, that's right. That tissue desiccates rapidly We're talking minutes. So you can't get out there and put some saran wrap and save it. It doesn't work um How about growing apples as a shrub if you ever thought of that Todd or I I've seen where they've taken and grown apples alongside of a building kind of a almost like an art form um A spillier I can barely say it but um, okay, it's fascinating and um, and I'm assuming it's dwarfing rootstock Maybe not, but I'm assuming it is you have a little maybe every eight feet There's this little apple tree and and horizontal branches and it's right along all on wires Fantastic as far as growing as a shrub. I don't know why you'd want to um, the problem would be is um It'd be a mess damage I wouldn't do that You're gonna keep uh aware of is that the apple trees that you That you plant are grafted And so like if you're just relying on suckers And that's going to be um, that's it's usually a dolgo crab or a super hardy crab that's the rootstock and it's not uh, it's It's a rootstock that will create um Low quality fruit. So you don't want to be reliant apples suckers. You should trim off the suckers at the base You're not going to create quality fruit. What one thing I was going to add quickly too. We have a minute. Yes, we do When let's say you had um a zestar tree or whatever type you like He didn't you save all the seeds from that and you planted them all and you had 300 little apple trees growing None of them are going to come true as a zestar. None of them They've all cross pollinated with something else in order for that to be fertile and they are not going to come true Will they be great? I'd say you have one out 164,000 chances of it actually becoming a tree to keep so if you had that much room Take the chance, but if you don't 164,000 trees, that's so they did any handsome research That's a lot of that's a lot of trees. Yeah, so if you got the room it's a lot of pruning A lot of pruning it's a lot of work How about you or he kind of you ever planted comfrey or rhubarb at the base of an apple tree I haven't but I have put um flowers or strawberries Adam At the base, um, I think that when you put like little flowers or other plants with um with them It's kind of nice. So I haven't ever planted Oh the rhubarb and the comfrey or rhubarb would not add anything to that. Oh, no, no it won't no But I have put plants underneath a tree if I misunderstood No, I don't know what they're after there. I recommend shredded bark mulch. It's nice. Yeah And the lawnmower hits it. It's not as messy How about putting a ziplock sandwich bag over an apple While the apples ripening does that protect it from loss? Etc. No, not a ziplock. It'll get all moldy. You can purchase or Make I guess probably purchase to start. There are um bags for protection for apples. I've seen those It's kind of fun if you got a lot of free time, but um, I I don't know I I wouldn't do it, but um, I have seen where people have purchased a special It's not it's not it's a bag where airflow gets through though. If you put like a bag over I think a little rot in there Yeah, one thing, uh, technically you can use a ziplock bag But you have to cut the bottom the bottom sides of each one Just for like you see time. Otherwise the condensation will leave a rot. Oh, thanks. I didn't realize that Yeah, so yeah, you don't want to but last part of the prom we want to protect the fruit from like apple Meg essentially what we're after but that gets to be a lot of work So if you don't if you need a hobby there you go and you got to put it on when the fruit's like the size of a nickel You got to put it on young Lots a lot of work How soon would you start pruning an apple tree? After planting like after about three years is that a good time to get started? I would look at it the second year the first year when you buy your tree I try to get one well make sure it doesn't have any damage or disease or insects on it looks fairly healthy The first year I like to leave it alone people are always picking and Stabbing their plants first year I leave it alone the second year if there's like a branch that's rubbing or Something really bad gonna happen. I might clip it off and the third year. I'll start to clean it up a bit So yeah, probably the third year but the second year I'll start but the first year No, I don't I don't bother with it at all Uh, Jim wall has another comment from his days of esteem esteem experience He reported jack carter a former agronomist the end issue had more than 100 apple varieties on One tree well in his yard There you go. That's a grafting champion Can you imagine what the pie tastes like? Wow I don't know Jim Jim. I don't know if we're gonna I guess Jim said it's true Whatever he says, we're just gonna assume it's true. That's what we're doing is true. I got something. Did Jim say it? Uh, this isn't from Jim. Okay. This is from a mysterious person from nelson county Oh, all right, you know, I someone would plant garlic underneath their apple tree. No You know maybe for rabbit protection or something but No, of course, you know garlic is um, they like full sun too. So if you're growing it A bit of garlic. You're not gonna do well It's not and it's not gonna be very effective But they're probably it's probably why they're doing it is they're probably trying to repel repel a past kids or something the best repellent of a past is uh Exclusion like a physical barrier chicken wire. There you go Hardware mesh much more effective than garlic. Uh, let's just scroll through any last questions here As far as again as far as graph compatibility the the closer they are within this it's among species the better so Otherwise, even if it does take and long run, it's going to be very weak and likely to fall off And I don't see anything else We're gonna shut it down there. Okay, Todd. Thank you very much for the demonstration and We're so glad we did have to call 911 But you know, I did it so that if I cut it would only take two fingers off It was the whole hand here. So that's right. But you wouldn't give a couple fingers for the spring fee rats I would give two fingers for the spring At least it's not one finger And also maybe lesson If you're interested in drafting, you know Read more about it. Read that publication like now's the time now's the time. This is a timely situation, right? Yeah, and I have a little little quick commercial. Um, April 25th Doing a pollinator workshop. So check my website and get more information on that but April 25th Emphasis on honeybees and flowers that attract pollinators may 30th a little bit late But we do have some apple trees coming that we're going to mess with and they will be ready to graft on may 30th So we'll have a grafting workshop may 30th And for information they can contact you again. Todd Weinman is at Cass county extension office, you know, just type in his Weinman's impossible to spell don't even try it. I gave up years ago But um, or else you give me a call 701-241-5707 Perfect right there. Okay, that's better because Yeah, that's the way to go. That's just be an email and uh, that's good. Okay. Thank you, Todd Ah, thanks for having me. Sorry about the mess