 Aloha, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. You can go to Levy in France, but you cannot become a French. You can go to Levy in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German or Turk or Japanese. But anyone from any corner of the earth can come to Levy America and become an American. Welcome back to A Nation of Immigrants, a bi-weekly interview program featuring the lives of immigrants, knowledge, diversity, and inclusion, created by Singtai Hawaii and Kingsfield Law Office. We invite renowned immigrants to discuss their life stories, immigration adventures, and contributions to cultural diversity. Today's guest is Ms. Rui-Lin Li, Senior Associate General Counsel at the University of Minnesota. Welcome, Rui-Lin. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much to be on the show. You know, in Chinese language, I call you Xue Zhang, and I still cannot find an English equivalent for this word, because we have an alum. The reason I call you Xue Zhang is because you went to the overwhelming law school a few years earlier than me. And as a junior alum, I call you Xue Zhang, which sounds like a senior alum, but doesn't convey the same meaning of admiration. So that's... I will continue to call you Xue Zhang in Chinese language, but I will call you Rui-Lin in English language. And the reason I say that you are a senior than me and there are multiple reasons, and obviously you went to the overwhelming, and you practice law for decades in the state of Minnesota. And I want to read a short bio of you to share with our audience. You are an extremely accomplished legal professional with over 20 years of a comprehensive experience, U.S. corporate governance, commercial transactions, SEC and security law compliance, financing, and international law. You have been widely recognized for your parallel proficiency in managing complex legal matters, including investments, public and private financing, regulatory compliance, and corporate governance. Culturally, Rui-Lin is a senior associate general counsel at the University of Minnesota, and Rui-Lin plays a critical role in overseeing the institution's global operations and exchange programs. In addition to managing venture capital and private equity transactions, prior to this role, Rui-Lin was a shareholder and a Shanghai office chief with Frederson Byron, professional association, where she practiced corporate and commercial law. Rui-Lin is a graduate of University of Minnesota Law School with a Dr. Degree, Magna Cum Laude, and a member of Minnesota Law Review. We all know what that means. That means you are the top of the top. You are the elite of the elites. Make the law review and graduate Magna Cum Laude with honors. Known for Rui-Lin's exceptional leadership and qualities and professional achievements, Rui-Lin has been honored with a Detinguished Chinese Alumni Award from the University of Minnesota, among many other recognitions. So this is just a very abridged version of your bio, but we are so honored to have you on the show, and I'll be trying to invite you to the show for a while. I'm glad you can make it happen this summer. And you were born and grew up in Tianjin because we know each other for a while. I want you to ask more about your childhood, your education in Tianjin, and your career in China. You had a very well-attablished career before you came to the United States. That's distinguishable from other Chinese students. So could you share with us something about your childhood, your early education, and your law career in China? I'm happy to, and thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be here. As you know, I'm from Tianjin. I was born in Tianjin. It's a large city about 100 miles from Beijing. I was born at the beginning of the Cultural Revolution, actually. My grandparents, they were classified as landlord during the Cultural Revolution. Yeah, so they were basically kicked out of their home in Tianjin, and they were forced to return to the countryside. Because of the bad category, my father was in re-education in my early childhood. But I was too young to remember too much about it. But I do remember my mom told me my father was often in tears in the middle of the night and holding me as a baby and telling me how terribly sorry he was that I was born into a landlord family. Would you go ahead? Sorry, I just want to... Because when you talk about labeled as a landlord and in a bad category, as a Chinese, I immediately understand what that means. Would you mind just elaborate a little bit? Is that something like a caste system? So basically if your family was labeled as a landlord family, what are the major consequences of this? Oh, there were a lot of consequences. You know, I was very, very young. I don't remember too much about it, but I do remember at the beginning of my elementary school when I was in elementary school, the first couple of years, I did very well academically, but we normally had to submit some forms. In the forms, you have to fill out your family category, or classification. I remember I always put my form underneath other people's, so other people won't see I'm from a landlord family. Anyway, so that was when I was really young, but I do remember the supply of a lot of things was very limited and we needed a coupon or ticket to buy meat, by cooking oil, by eggs, and a lot of other things. My mother used to ask me to buy 20 cents renminbi of pork from the local grocery store. Yeah, we couldn't even do that on a daily basis. I also remember we used to get one new set of clothes each year for the Chinese New Year. Same here. Just one per year. And one year I get two sets. I was so thrilled and all my friends were very jealous. Anyway, so I went to college in Tianjin and majored in law. In the US, you have to finish your undergrad degree, then go to law school, pass the bar exam. But in China, you can go to college and major in law, then take the bar exam. So that's what I did in China. After I graduated, I worked at the first and the largest law firm in Tianjin. It's called the number one law firm of Tianjin. At that time, the legal system was just re-established. It was still under development. That's the 80s, 1980s? Yeah, 1980s. 80s, yeah. So my law firm was owned by the government. There was no private practice back then. So over in Tianjin, I practiced for about five years. I practiced general business law, drafted a lot of commercial contracts. I also did a litigation. And then in 1994, my then husband, he had the opportunity to pursue a PhD at the University of Minnesota. So he came here and a couple of months later, my son, who was a four at that time, and I came here and that's how we ended up in Minnesota. So I have been in Minnesota for almost 30 years. Here. I've been here 20 years. I have 10 years to catch up. Well, thank you so much for sharing very moving story. And I recognize many elements, the coupon, the voucher, 20 cents of a pork, all of that, and extreme hardship. And even though I'm a little bit younger than you, but I think we share a lot of life experience back in China in the 80s. But from your story, basically, you had a very brilliant career in Tianjin, 17 million people, one of the biggest metropolitan cities in China. And with a very prestigious law firm, government-owned big law firm, Party's Law for five years. And you basically gave up your legal career in China, came to the United States without a job, I assume. And what's your goal when you come to the United States, want to become a lawyer in the United States? Or and you went to your own law school. And could you tell us a little bit more about the story behind this official resume? How did you resume your legal education and your legal career here in Minnesota in the United States? Sure. If you ask me, did I plan to become a lawyer in the U.S., answer was straightforward, no, at the beginning. So my English was very rusty when I initially got here. So my first priority was to get out of the apartment to practice my language skills, just to talk to someone. My first job in the U.S. was at the downtown Minneapolis Reddison Hotel as a part of the housekeeping crew. So over there, even though my housekeeping skill improved significantly, I rarely had any opportunity to speak to people to practice English. But a couple of months later, I found an advertisement on Minnesota Daily that a large Minneapolis law firm is looking for a conference clerk. I was very intrigued by that opportunity because I have never seen a U.S. law firm before. I immediately applied and fortunately I got the job. That law firm was Fred Rixon Environment. The initial job over there was to set up conference rooms, meaning I just provide a barrage to meeting attendees and clean up the conference room after the meetings. Over there, I had an opportunity to communicate with the people to improve my language skills. People at Fred Rixon, they were so friendly and supportive. They often asked me what they could do to help me. I just simply told them, please just talk to me. So one year later, I was promoted to as a immigration law clerk. So I did some immigration traditions and filings. Another year later, I was admitted to Minnesota Bar as a firm label consultant. So I was able to advise clients on Chinese law. And then as I was more exposed to legal practice, I felt like I was ready and then I decided to go to law school. So in 1998, I went to the University of Minnesota Law School and graduated in 2001 and came back to Fred Rixon and Byron. What a beautiful story. I would say a typical American story. And from the picture, I can recognize Lin Tom Sullivan from our law school. He was my civil pro professor for a year. And he must be very proud of you. I believe you were one of the very first Chinese international students at the law school. And you graduated Magna Con Lodi and you made law review. This is just unprecedented. And I never made a law review, to be honest. And I didn't graduate with honors, but I'm still proud of myself. And I believe Lin Tom Sullivan and all the faculty members are very proud of you. So you made the story sound so easy, your study, but actually we can imagine how hard you worked and to receive all these recognitions. You obtained a law degree and a license to practice law, both in China and in the United States. Again, this is a rarity. And even in today, even today, and back in the 1990s, that just I heard of, a foreign lawyer can obtain a law license in the United States. And from your observation, are there any major differences in legal education in these two countries? I'm asking this question because I didn't receive legal education in China. I only received legal education in the United States. But I think you are perfectly positioned to compare these two different systems of legal education in the United States and in China. I'm happy to share. I would say yes, there are a lot of differences. So as you know, China has no common law. And the law means statute, regulations, the code, etc. When I studied the law in China, we studied the statute. So all exams were closed book exams. You have to memorize all the statute in order to do well. And there was always a correct answer to each question. The first semester in Minnesota Law School was quite an eye-opening experience for me. So first of all, we read a lot of case laws, the case book. And then we applied the case law to real-life scenarios. In classrooms, the students are encouraged to come up with your own arguments and ideas, solutions. And I was very confused. I was always expecting the professor to tell us the right answer at the end of the class. But that never happened. The professor would normally say, great discussion. I'll see you tomorrow or see you next time. So I really, I struggled at the beginning. Then I realized, you know, there's no correct answer. There's no one answer. You are supposed to argue both ways. And even on exams, you should argue back and forth. But I eventually adapted. I would say in general, the U.S. education system encourages creative and critical thinking. So the students are better prepared to solve real-life problems. In China, we memorize a lot. We memorize rather than learning. So it is very, very competitive, as you know, in China. So we just copy the educators' ideas because we rarely have time to come up with our own ideas. That's a very interesting observation. And I totally agree with you. And you become a lawyer in the United States, aside from the language barrier, which you overcome very early, and you made law review, which means you did very well in law school. And after 20 years, part is law. But at the end of the day, we are Chinese Americans. And we grew up, we were born and grew up in a foreign country, China. So have you experienced cultural conflict or cultural differences when you're partying law in the United States? Yes, definitely I have. So you're from China, you know, a traditional Chinese culture, for most modesty, right, keeping a low profile. Growing up in China, we used to downplay our own achievements and praise others. There is a traditional Chinese saying that meaning modesty makes you move forward whereas pride makes you lag behind. So I kept that approach in my initial years as a junior lawyer in the US. I'll tell you an interesting story here. In 1997, I was admitted to the bar in Minnesota as a foreign legal consultant. When the application was approved, I was in China visiting my parents. The chair of the International Practice Group at Brad Rixon called me and told me the great news. He was very excited on the phone. But on the other side of the phone line, I was, you know, I tried to stay calm. I tried to downplay the significance of this great news. You know, that's a big milestone for me, but I tried to downplay it. I think my colleague was expecting me jumping up and down and sharing with excitement. But of course, I couldn't do that in front of my parents. I think he was surprised or maybe disappointed by my response or lack of a response. He even asked me, are you happy with the great news? So after the phone call, my parents asked me what happened. And I told them the big news with a big smile on my face. And I remember the first thing my father told me was, hey, don't get carried away. Keep your confidence. Meaning just, you know, well, do you want to know what you mean? So, you know, as you can see, the same response didn't satisfy either side. I was too unemotional to my US colleagues. But nevertheless, that was too much to my father. So, you know, obviously you can see the culture difference. And also at the client meetings, I was very reserved in the initial years. I rarely spoke up. And even if when we talk about the Chinese law that I know more than most people in the conference room, that was my nature. That's how, you know, we were taught growing up. But I think luckily I had a great mentor, great colleagues, and they encouraged me. They pushed me really hard. They say, really, you have to speak up and don't be afraid to make mistakes. So just little by little, I forced myself to step out of the comfort zone and gradually, you know, you become more confident. Thank you. Those are great stories, and I really appreciate you sharing that. And I just agree with every single word you said. You know, there are a lot of cultural differences. And some of them are so sort of unspoken rules or hidden rules. And unless you are an insider, it's very hard to explain. But I believe you explain them very well. We are running a little bit behind, I have so many questions for you. But I do want to ask you, you are very well recognized in the legal community because you're a shareholder and a Shanghai bureau chief with a major law firm in Minneapolis. And it practice in private sector for over a decade. And now you are among the most senior legal officers at U of M, public sector, I guess. We can say that. And I read your job description and found them extremely difficult, very broad responsibility, very huge responsibility. But it sounds very, very difficult tasks. And do you find your current position interesting, intellectually challenging and rewarding? Oh, absolutely. I joined OGC. That's the Office of the General Counsel in early 2019. You know, you saw my bio. My practice include financing, investment, international, regulatory compliance, and some other areas. The University of Minnesota, it's one of the largest, most complex, and most, you know, prestigious public research universities in the nation. It is also Minnesota's only land grant research institution. As you can imagine, the legal needs are highly varied and specialized. But at OGC, I am surrounded by highly intelligent and dedicated colleagues. We work together to meet all legal needs. And we also share the same value. I do believe that education, you know, paved the way for a better life for most people. I personally benefited from the education from the university. So I wanted to play a role in giving back to the community. Working at the university provides me a unique opportunity to make people's life better and their future brighter. It offers a bigger platform to serve the community. So I'm very proud. I'm extremely happy. I can contribute to the university's mission, which is research, teaching, and outreach. And I can use my service to help build a better life for our students, and especially, you know, immigrants. So it is very rewarding. Brilliant. Thank you so much. That's just, you know, a fantastic answer. And we have about like three minutes left. I have three very quick questions for you. And I hope we can cover at least the majority of our questions. So you are a senior female lawyer. And what advice would you give to aspiring women who are entering or appearing to excel in the legal profession? I will try to be brave here. I think first of all, you have to believe in yourself and tell yourself, yes, I can do this. You are capable of more than you know. You know, for the first few years after I arrived here, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I couldn't even imagine to go to law school to become a lawyer. It's only, you know, with experience and with encouragement from my colleagues and friends. I tried and, you know, I surprised myself. I would say you never know what you're capable of until you try. Secondly, you know, I think most of my female profession friends agree with me that sometimes we are less competent than our male counterparts in terms of, you know, presenting ourselves or making judgment calls. It takes time and takes practice. So you should allow yourself to make mistakes. And that's how we grow and that's how we learn. Thirdly, I think is most importantly, at least to me myself. It's almost remember life is more than just a career and profession. You need to have a life outside of work. That is the lesson I learned from my own experience. In my early career years, I spent too much time working, studying, you know, you said I did well, but because I was studying, I was working all the time. And I rarely attended any of my son's sporting events. And now I regret it. So my advice to young female lawyers is just have a life outside of work. Spend time with your loved ones, with your family, especially if you have children. Great advice. I will take them all. Okay. Perhaps that's one last question. And when was your last time in your home come came in? And what's your impression? Yeah, last time, so for all the years I was in the US, I never went back to China to celebrate Chinese New Year with my family in China. And in 2020, early 2020, that was the first time and only time I went back to China to celebrate the Chinese New Year. It's partially because my mom was getting older and her health was declining. It just happened to be the beginning of a COVID. So that was a quiet experience. But I'm glad I made that trip because that was the last time I spent some time with my mom. Well, thank you so much for sharing your life stories and your career advice. And you're just a fantastic American story for us. Thank you so much for your time. And I have many other questions I want to ask you. And we will definitely invite you back to the show and to continue our discussion. And again, be well and keep in touch. And thank you again to serve the University and serve the State of Minnesota. Today's guest, Ruilin Li, Senior Associate General Counsel at the University of Minnesota. Thank you so much, Ruilin. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Talk to you later. Yep. Okay, take care. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.