 So hello everyone and a warm welcome to Capital Insider series. Today we are going to talk about aspect which has been building a lot of highlight in the investment space which is really deep tech and emerging tech. Since the last two years a big focus for the entire funding community as well as tech community has sort of drawn a lot towards the space of deep tech as well as emerging tech which could also be enabling machine learning computer vision artificial intelligence and the likes of those. So today we are joined by Jatin over here and you know I was just talking to Jatin and he tells me that you know before actually being the managing partner of influx or ventures he was also an entrepreneur himself so that puts him in a very sweet spot because he really understands you know how the founders mind works and then being an investor himself today you know he he can actually come and appreciate what the founder goes through and therefore the fund has just raised about 230 crores of its initial capital and then of course there is going it's a fund which aims to go up to 500 crore of you know corpus for making investments in young startups. So lovely having you here with us Jatin a great space that you have chosen which is deep tech and it's been catching eyeballs and not just that what I have interestingly noticed about deep tech is how they have been able to build and capture businesses in such a short period of time and become such large organizations and of course not just that but the kind of impact that they create in in the world in terms of really changing the way things happen has has been really marvelous so it's it's really good to have you here with us at entrepreneur as we talk more about the for the next 30 35 minutes about you know what the future of deep tech and machine learning is really going to be. So let me start by asking you a question which I'm sure you you get asked several times but I think it nevertheless keeps our maintains its importance is that deep tech is such a such a huge space I mean you know I've been studying it for the last one year as we write as journalists but I also see that the space is becoming very crowded now this just so much happening so do you think as investors you you put your lenses in in some in some short sectors within deep tech or is the spectrum very large so what what are the areas that you're looking at whether it is software hardware or are you focusing only on certain sectors like say climate change or health care or you know even probably drug discovery as I see today is using a lot of ML so where particularly you see the trends going in deep tech and as a fund what are you focused on. Sure thanks thanks for having me under kind introduction so I think you know it's a it's a very good first question right you know how at least as a fund we see deep tech or how we define it right so for us you know at a high level the definition of deep tech is very simple right any technology that will have a deep impact on the larger society is what we consider as deep tech and sometimes what happens is you know depending on the progress and the evolution right from our industrial revolution one to where we are today in 2020 the definition of at that point in time of what constitutes of deep tech keeps changing right so in the current context in 2020 where we are today you know if applied to software deep tech would encompass things like artificial intelligence you know machine learning augmented and virtual reality like blockchain big data so these are the kind of things that would constitute on the software side what is deep tech on the hardware side obviously hardware always goes hand in hand with software right but on the hardware side it would constitute things like iot on the consumer side or industrial iot on the on the enterprise side robotics you know stuff like that right even cyber security violet software you know cyber security also has a hardware component right so these broadly would be considered as you know the deep tech ecosystem and of course you know if you fast forward five years or seven years right some of these definitions may change so as an example quantum computing which is little bit more trendy r&d phase right and you know it's not yet available to people like us you know if you fast forward five seven years that will replace something else right so the definition because of technology obsolescence will keep changing as we move along right and for us as a fund we are sectorally agnostic right so vertical wise we will do healthcare fintech consumer tech right you know all kinds of vertical but you know we have a horizontal theme of the investments in our fund which is the deep tech right so as long as there is deep tech tech ip emerging tech used to solve a business problem right practically which is a market size is where we could be hardware it could be software of course we prefer software because it's easier and low kpex and all of that but we have done investments in hardware software combinations you know as well right so hopefully you know that answers you know at least at a high level what deep tech is and how we look at it as investments so when you look at deep tech investments i mean and i'm sure you know at your end you probably make these comparisons of indian startups with the startups in the world within the deep tech space so what what do you find interesting what are the trends that you see that are interesting in india from a world comparison perspective when we started our fund one which is called parampara in 2015 so of course we had started groundwork in 2014 for that fund you know we started with this team and we said we will focus on b2b and b2b2c and those were the days of only b2c you know people were building e-commerce and market places left and right so we were also given feedback by sort of our mentors or people who we were interacting with you know in the the vcpe world but you know given our background right so we are serial entrepreneurs in the tech ecosystem in the past as you had mentioned earlier and we dealt mostly with b2b and enterprise technology we thought you know we'll play rather play to our strengths right and also we were new because you know we were part of the u.s startup ecosystem in the late 90s to early 2000 we have seen the dot-com boom and bust we knew that for b2c you know the cash guzzling game first time fund managers with a relatively small fund size may not be the right thing anyway to focus on plus it's not our strength so when we started a lot of apprehension you know as to how will you find deep tech companies in india there's not much tech ip india is good in services and b2c and stuff like that but you know having been associated with some of the campuses during the campus hiring that i used to do well while i briefly worked for bank of america in the past i knew that there's a lot of activity definitely beginning to happen while it was still early so we set up this small fund parampara and we were you know our apprehensions five years down the line today you know have been proven wrong thankfully right we have found some solid deep tech startups in india and half of the portfolio companies in fund one have expanded globally right including to the developed markets you know sitting out of india so india as you know has always been known as in the it services as well so when globally anywhere people think of it talent india is always at the top of the mind right and that is perhaps what you know my generation sort of built the it services side of india you know in the in the technology space but what i see changed now is you know the younger folks right who are either in still in college or right outside out of college their focus is shifting right so they are thinking more into more and more into developing tech ip you know and obviously tech ip you know deep tech will definitely get used they are thinking of innovation they are thinking of an entrepreneurship right some of our founders have left you know 30 40 lakh jobs out of campus to do their own startup which is extremely risky right and we see that trend and coming from tier three tier four town founders who may be in mumbai or banglore today but you know these guys come from you know tier three tier four town so that all that is very encouraging of course we have a long way to go right you know number one still is us and china is closed behind the us and you know we probably have at least a half a decade to one decade gap right between the us ecosystem and the chinese ecosystem is and gap that gap perhaps when we started fund one was a lot more which you know i'm happy to say that at least according to what we see has reduced a bit but we need to still do a little bit of catch up sure now i i think we're going in interesting times that way because you know there is always room for improvement when when an investor from you know his lenses sees that there is still a lot of things which are happening over the world and therefore the scope for bigger or bigger business opportunities becomes all the more so you know when i see startups in deep tech i mostly see that they have very solution-based approach to things you know so wherein they would typically help other businesses to improve their efficiencies their productivity so i mean even if you look at a SaaS startup i find that everybody who is right now i come across would be better to give their solutions to let's say other businesses rather than having a business on their own which is solution or to the industry itself so do you feel that that's how the structure of deep tech startups or emerging tech likely to be or do you think they are going to be more focused on certain industries and therefore bring disruption and change within those industries so what my question largely is enterprise tech versus business tech so to say sure sure no so i'll tell you right what is VC and what has been happening for the last 10 to 15 years globally and also obviously to some extent in India particularly in the last 10 years so we have the supply side and the demand side right so demand side are the consumer supply side are the enterprises right that make this available to the consumer so a lot of disruption has happened on the demand side right in the last 10-15 years which is where you know this intermediation happened right a lot of intermediaries got out you know marketplaces came up right online e-commerce sites came up delivery mechanisms got disrupted right you know what amazon did or what flipkart is doing in India you know so a lot of work has happened there already right and it will continue to happen at a certain pace no doubt right you know and and also of course deep tech is also very much valid in the b2c world or on the demand side as well where we see in the next 10 to 15 years and we have seen that in the last particularly three four years is also on the enterprise side or on the supply side they have lagged a little bit behind right where the consumer revolution has happened right so now we see a lot of inward focus you know on using technology or innovation right and if you look at the global context there's a lot of cheap money available right particularly in the developed market plus these large companies are flushed with cash so there is a lot of inflationary pressure due to excessive liquidity right so companies are using some of these cash to and using technology as a deflationary pressure right as you know technology is always deflationary right cost of computing keeps going down year on year right so they are using technology as a deflationary pressure but more importantly also to innovate differentiate themselves from the the competition right and improve efficiencies and also given you know lot more practical applications now artificial intelligence machine learning industrial iot all of that is going to play out on the supply side as well right and thankfully right in a way right obviously covid is a horrible situation to be in right but one of the bright spots and you know as investors or as participants in the ecosystem we always have to be cautiously optimistic one huge plus that we see is even the traditional businesses we're on the sideline right waiting to get disrupted literally right with the tech wave that is coming across the world we see you know a lot of increased interest from traditional businesses brick and mortar places that they have realized that they have to accelerate digitization right so a lot of you know money is getting now spend on digitization automation and we continue that we feel that next 10 to 15 years that the supply side will accelerate a bit more than the demand side right because they have lag behind and that's why that b2b focus that our fund primarily has we believe will help the cause and you just mentioned digital transformation do you see a lot of deep tech startups actually sort of riding that wave and traditional businesses gaining more out of it yes yes absolutely right and you know i have enough examples from our own portfolio companies you know that are making a huge impact so definitely i think deep tech startups have a huge role to play in all the digitization and the innovation efforts that are underway today yes and this whole work from so it's a couple of examples right even including from our portfolio right like you know i would imagine that you know outside of the financial services and the tech industries as verticals not all industries were geared up to do work from home or remote working right and the whole world has been doing that almost for eight nine ten months now right so cyber security or data security right was not you know very well because you know people didn't expect people to work from home right now suddenly everybody has laptop and they are forced to work from home so corporate data enterprise data is at risk right so we have couple of startups using deep tech you know a iml cyber security both for external threat as well as insider threat you know we are seeing a tailwind in that right business has grown actually during covid then it was pre-covid we have a couple of automation companies using a iml that help fmcg industries media and entertainment like particularly the ott platform which are also seeing a tailwind so those startups you know like smart chat bots which get deployed on e-commerce sites in absence of call centers they are seeing a huge boom edu tech and health tech as you know right you know are also seeing a big boom during covid no absolutely and i think the words so i'm actually quite keen to see how manufacturing is going to look much different so from you know what we have seen it in its traditional avatar particularly with the help of technology how it could be more precision based and less wastage of resources and so on so let's actually take one question which has come up from anand he says that when it comes to enterprise tech particularly sass there is a need of understanding domain and address unmet user needs rather rather patiently this would mean a lot of patience in addressing existing customer based and focusing on capturing new customers that is slow growth wouldn't that be opposite to VC plants i am you know if i understood the question right i slightly disagree with that of course you see domain knowledge is required in anything that you do in technology right without domain knowledge you can't solve the business problem so of course i agree to that right obviously domain knowledge is required i think one one example i can give from our portfolio company how the move shift to cloud has happened so there was a company that we had invested in that was that had developed software ip for the infrastructure industry right so this company software was had gotten used in all the major infrastructure projects in india right to talk about the delhi and mumbai metro systems or you talk about a lot of the buildings in bkc in in mumbai right and many other large infra projects but when we invested the limitation that company had was two fours right one was their software was not enabled on the cloud right so they were kind of selling mostly in india right once they got their software enabled on the cloud because this technology is required everywhere right infrastructure is being built around the world so once they move to the cloud the domain knowledge of course was the same of course additionally they had to factor in international building codes you know for for their structural engineering analysis is that that's the domain that they were serving but as soon as they became sort of cloud enabled right immediately the market suddenly became from india to global right and then you know for young startups in an early stage you know you could either sell outside india through digital marketing or you could have channel partnership so that you know you are not spending too much time and resources and you are giving it to some experts who are already doing that and once you reach a certain large say you can do direct you know feet on the street or the founders or the key team members travel back and forth so i i somewhat disagree i think you know once you have software enabled on the cloud and you are solving a real-life problem your market suddenly becomes from a local market to a global market of course you may start locally so how you know almost half of our portfolio company they started in india doing cloud software so india is a price sensitive market but it is more tolerant if you have a couple of bugs here and there you know it's a little bit more so we ask our companies to refine the product get it right right because you know once you go outside you know the tolerance on the bugs is little less they will pay more price for it so that's the trade-off right which is good in a way quality of revenue so then we make them go to middle east and southeast asia right and then they go to the developed markets us and europe but once you are on the cloud it's just almost a switch right you know hey you know people in the us can use the same software that we are using here right so that's what i would say on the cloud side of it in fact in fact i would add one more point for us the best investment is that the intersection of deep tech and cloud if you have a deep tech solution which runs on the cloud that is an ideal investment for us frankly sure yeah that makes a lot of sense actually from what is required today in that sense so tell me on a more qualitative level when you look at deep tech what what sort of qualities you see in the founders and i mean you know what is the chemistry of the founder team or the founding team that you see typically in a deep tech startup which you probably is different from let's say a more b2c or a consumer facing startup i think there is no there's no real you know standing out sort of characteristic see basic ingredients of any good founders whether they are doing a b2c or a deep tech company right 90 percent of the ingredients are the same right these guys have to be i call it practically passionate right you know you can be passionate but you also to be practical you know so so if you are committed have high conviction you are somewhat flexible to change with what the market is giving message to you and not be rigid that hey it's my baby you know this is my way or highway right so so you know some of the basic ingredients plus you know you are solving a real business problem where there is a large enough market size right and there is an for investment considerations you know obviously for us the valuation and the exit potential if all these ingredients are in place you know in terms of the founder quality i would only add that if you are really doing a lot of deep tech at least one of the co-founders ideally should be a tech guy right you know like a computer science or not necessarily committed but with not somebody who has done hands-on technology work in a similar area i think that would be the only difference i would say see otherwise in our portfolio we have founders from stanford to college drop out right so in terms of the educational background frankly it doesn't matter too much right as long as you have hands-on prior experience in the deep tech ecosystem that you are trying to work on and solve a business problem so in most of our startups you know ideally where there are two co-founders for example one of them will be very strong in technology right and the other one will be very strong in sales marketing so we look for these complementary skill sets either in the co-founder team or the founder and key team sure and do you also see great opportunities for Indian deep tech startups to go global in the coming years you think our product is being being built not just for the Indian market but also for addressing the global market and then if it's all global markets then what are good markets to start with sure no no we definitely see you know global market potential for deep tech startups out of India i mean you know at a very high level if Indians can go and go to the US and you know build Google and Facebook and in fact lead Microsoft there's no reason why we can't do it from India right and now the environment or the ecosystem is also changing right there is a lot of private capital available which was not the case perhaps when i joined the job market right and the youngsters are willing to take a little bit more risk they have more financial support right so i think risk-taking capability and i think the taboo of taboo about failure is also less than what it was like 10 20 years ago so i definitely see i think already we are seeing particularly in the deep tech or the b2b side right we already have several companies now that do upwards of 50 100 200 million dollars revenue right only thing is we feel that the scale comes only when you go abroad right you know so in India you know you can probably do the first 5 to 10 million in India right and then to scale beyond that you know like i said the template that we have followed or most of our companies have followed is post India they go to far east Asia and Middle East right and they sort of get some traction there and then they move to the US and European markets and half of our companies in the portfolio have done this very successfully sure and given the fact that you know you yourself done startups at Silicon Valley and you sort of understand the character of startups over there do you feel that talent movement from there to India or talent movement from here to India to Silicon Valley how could that sort of i would say you know change the entire growth structure or the growth plan of the deep tech startup which is was actually founded in India so you know i mean how can talent movement help Indian startups to become more robust better and therefore be able to achieve their growth targets faster yeah i think obviously it is very helpful and since you know i spend most of my professional career in the US and i've come back and then you know our fund you know we call it the the US India corridor right you know for the startup ecosystem so where you know either you know there are Indian founders in the US who have a tech shop back in India or there are Indian founders in India with a tech shop here whose major markets are outside of India right so that is kind of what we call the US India corridor and then there is talent movement back and forth sometimes what happens is you know beyond a certain point of traction especially you know even including in our portfolio companies where there are two co-founders once they hit a certain milestone then one of the co-founders will go move to the US right so that there is one co-founder in India one in the US right we have also cases in our portfolio companies right we have a semiconductor automation company so this founder has spent 22 years in Silicon Valley you know working in Intel right and he has come back to India post that and you know started a startup that we saw that is solving problems that are faced by semiconductor companies right large chip companies when it comes to testing an automation testing automation of their chip design so that's the US India corridor part and i think that needs to increase you know and happen more and more one problem i have with is you know of course India is moving up the value chain right one problem partially because of you know some of our uncertain tax policies or regulations which has improved a lot of course lately and secondly our perception that India is more of a IT services heartland you know i see some startups you know having base in Singapore or you know having a legal entity in the US most of the work of course is happening in India so there is a perception that same company in Singapore or US will get valued more as opposed to if you are only in India right i hope and i sincerely think that that changes over the next five to seven years both with you know better government policies which are happening right i think government has been hugely supportive of the startup ecosystem plus perception internationally once we have a few good you know outcomes from India in terms of growth and exits i think that should change as well sure um and you know let me ask you this that particularly uh you've seen b2c era of startups you know in 2011-12-13 we had what you typically called e-commerce and now i'm seeing that you know particularly 2015 upwards i've seen there are more startups which have been sort of helping other businesses which are very b2c an enterprise tech focused from a growth standpoint and you know i mean how soon or how how different you find these two ecosystems are do you feel that the b2b tech startup is able to sort of grow faster in their trajectory to okay let's say in a more you know parlance to become a path towards unicorn is faster versus the b2c startup which is you know very consumer facing and therefore also has a big burn and investment towards acquisition of consumers so i mean this is actually just an extension to the question of what the gentleman had earlier asked about you know keeping the pace of growth right no so i think you know obviously you know in the indian content that we are 1.3 billion people of which of course three to four hundred would what we would consider middle class so the growth obviously will always be faster in the in a b2c side than on the b2b side but on the flip side of that is the failure rate and the capital requirement all of that also will be much higher on the b2c side right for every flip card i'm sure there are a thousand b2c companies that have failed or even more right whereas that ratio may be a little bit better on the b2b side right on the b2b side you know in the first three four years if you are growing two x three x right that's considered good growth year on year right i'm talking of c agr and then in then you double every year for the next few years i think that would be considered good growth and you will get good valuation if you are you know cloud based software play for example right there is on the b2c side of course you know there is no consideration of how much capital you need or when you will be profitable but if you can make you know five million people download your application right you know you will be valued at 250 million right away so i think that that's the slight difference there are both pros and cons of it but b2b definitely is changing so you know just to your point you know when you started the question as of the nascombe report of 2019 right in the last five years you know from that report in india about 9500 startups got created right 43 percent of those were in b2b right so if you had if you had done the same survey in 2015 you know you would probably find five or 10 percent in b2b right so that's the shift that has happened to your point right that b2b focus has increased and 18 percent were deep tech right and now what we see at least our view is internal view is as we move forward is to be roughly at 50 50 between b2b b2c and but within the b2b the deep tech component will increase further sure and do you think the pandemic in one sense has sort of slowed down the growth for deep tech startups or do you think in fact because the need for digitization and need for this transformation is so much higher that even if there's been a slight slowdown it's only going to come back bigger and faster in 21 correct no so i think you know except i would say for April, May, June right so which was the first quarter of this financial year where we saw some slowdown right i think it has come back with the bank right the whole deep tech and you know digitization automation enabling companies like that you know it has pretty much in fact i would say that we are almost back to pre-covid level in terms of the activity the valuations which had gone down a little bit also have come back to almost back to pre-covid level that is in the sector that we operate in right and we are seeing a lot of activity and thankfully right and and also again going back to your b2b b2c question right all the companies none of the companies in our portfolio have failed right in despite of covid so they've all survived and on the other side of the problem right you know whoever has survived will be able to garner more of the market share right so which is what we feel very good about right whereas in terms of b2c if you had ran out of money at the start of covid right you would have to shut down whereas in b2b you can kind of control a little bit better the levers yeah that's true in in one sense you know because obviously you don't have the b2c problems which is to always you know bump up your numbers of customers you can still probably be a little more relaxed when it comes to your customer size in in the b2b space so you know finally before we sort of I know we're almost at the end of our time so but finally let me ask you this that you know if so you know there is this obviously new business model which is b2b2c which is becoming you know the talk of the town so to say and particularly from a from a deep tech startup how do you define a b2b2c model I mean you know what how does the business model really work what part is b2b what part is b2c and therefore how does how do the founders plan their entire business to be able to you know garner their numbers or meet their growth targets correct so we have a few b2c companies so we like I said like our fund primarily focuses on b2b but you know we have two consumer tech companies in our portfolio which were also pure b2b companies when we started so these were so for example right we had a super energy efficient smart appliance maker because which had used deep tech you know to solve some of the problems so they were selling to other businesses right who were in turn selling to finally the consumers right so now you know whether you sell via amazon right in a way while it is b2c you are actually dealing with amazon and amazon is dealing with your consumers right or you know in the case of this appliance maker they sell it to the retail stores who then sell it to consumers right so I think you know while largely you know the hustling required and you know the skills required of sales and marketing will not change too much b2b requires a little bit more focused approach right because you can't burn your way through the b2b2c or the b2b sales and marketing functionality right whereas in b2c you can bombard people with digital marketing or give a lot of freebies right and you know Indian consumers are smart some of them will try it also right when you are giving things for free and you know discounted models right so you know the hustling and all that required is the same I think only thing is you know you are dealing with another business to sell your products who will then sell to consumers right so I think you know the sales cycles may be longer but they are you know not as expensive as you would do for b2c right that's the main difference I would say so do you think post the pandemic it would be a survival strategy for a lot of b2c tech startups to actually start thinking b2b I think the ones that are well funded you know actually will gain more market share right the ones that were struggling financially I think will die down right I think we've already seen a lot of that right even before COVID you see the number of closures but I think whoever survives will of course have a bigger share of the pie and India is still huge right I think you know the China inflection point while I'm not a b2c guy right you know I just share one anecdote the China inflection point came you know when they moved to like a five thousand dollar you know per capita income five to six thousand dollar range right India has been stuck at this two thousand two thousand five hundred you know per capita number and you know that inflection point where we want to move the pace that China went is keep getting delayed right once India hits that five to six thousand dollar per capita you will see a further huge boom so I mean you know b2c still has a lot of potential in India clearly right we believe it's nothing to come down rather than go up at least for a short time of course you know I'm not an expert so I do have a disclaimer and you know I'm a b2b enterprise guy right but of course you have enough knowledge about what's happening in b2c unfortunately you know before geo stepped in b2c was left to all the big foreign players right the domestic guy had no chance is controlled by amazon alibaba walmarts even today right so sure just a second there is another what are the great opportunities to invest in b2b samir is asking like I said earlier right in b2b a lot of traditional industries right be it brick and mortar or be traditional manufacturing you know some of them who have been very resistant to technology right and unfortunately they don't know what is going to hit them right unless you are on monopoly businesses right where you know you don't have to worry too much about disruption at least for now if you are in a business that is not monopoly tsunami will disrupt you right so I think I think the way you are able to convey that right and you find what are the problems that can be solved in this context and you can pick the right vertical of your choice right whether it's health tech or manufacturing or you know consumer tech or fintech right I think you know there is obviously huge potential where tech has not interfered too much like manufacturing is a very good example right we see three or four trends that are happening in manufacturing right so there is a computer vision based you know behavior analytics and shop floor monitoring of behavior analytics to increase efficiency there is this whole concept of digital twins you know which is part of industry 4.0 where you simulate the shop floor in a digital environment and do predictive analysis and you know improve efficiencies and reduce breakdowns right stuff like that you know a lot of activities going on obviously there's robotics right there's 3d printing so there's a lot of opportunity in all of these areas only thing is you know in India there's a lot of resistance still right which hopefully like I said will change post the pandemic I think some of our investors who are also in traditional businesses you know they have made a very conscious attempt to get themselves familiarized and also actually invest in our fund right to get become part of this whole digitization and automation journey sure so just got a question that Varendra is asking what is your take on healthcare IT startups as a VC oh healthcare healthcare you know as we say healthcare IT is assuming that's what you mean right obviously you know it has been one of the biggest beneficiaries in the time of COVID and if you see some activity in the in the public markets particularly in the US right where it comes to telemedicine or whether it comes to artificial intelligence or machine learning company that accelerate drug discovery right stuff like that we actually are looking at a AI based radiology company radiology startup out of India right so this company has developed machine learning models to read CT scans right and you know if you go to a site where the software is installed besides your regular CT scan report you will get this AI ML based startups report the quantitative insight report and a combination of the two reports will give you very good diagnosis and hopefully better treatment right so there is a lot of stuff like that happening also obviously on India is in bad need for you know low cost medical devices there's of course activity happening on the low cost medical devices side also as has been exacerbated during COVID right with all the ventilators and all of that happening so there's of course it's a huge potential area health tech overall and it's one of our favorite sectors as well as a fund sure so we'll take this one final question I mean while it's it's very generic but you might still want to comment on this so you know with the fallout of Softbank Amazon going direct and China fallout what do you think is going to be the impact on Indian economy I think I think China geopolitically what happens with China and I don't think it's only an India China thing right it's a global versus China thing it will have an impact because there are a lot of Chinese capital coming to the Indian startup ecosystem as you are all aware Softbank of course had some bad news particularly on the WeWorks and couple of other things that went down but I think you know these guys always have a tendency to come up in fact I don't know if you follow right Softbank has come back strongly since those March April lows right even as a publicly traded company on both Tokyo and New York stock exchanges so they've recovered significantly from where they were I think you know as part of the VC ecosystem right we used to see a lot of American Chinese Japanese capital coming when we started right and then you know more recently Korean capital has started coming in some European capital has started coming in so there will always be you know capital that will get replaced and I think you know thanks to what Geo is doing right they are trying to convert themselves from a oil and gas company to a tech company hopefully you know even the domestic large industrial houses will also become part of the startup ecosystem as far as capital investments are concerned Geo has themselves bought so many startups in the recent times right so we also want the domestic large industrial houses to participate in the ecosystem in terms of capital. Sure do we have time for one final more question Jatin there is a gentleman is asking as deep tech needs go deep in solutions what is good organic growth balanced growth or hyper growth I mean you know for startup there is only organic growth right there is no no inorganic or hybrid growth right startups cannot go and acquire companies so if you are talking of early state startup particularly of course you know it has to be organic when you reach a startup at the level of a flipkart and a byju right obviously then you can do that hybrid both organic and inorganic growth and as you know right all these both of the companies I mentioned have bought bunch of other startups right so I think you know for early stage it has to be organic I don't think there is a choice. Sure so you know with that we've almost at the end of the time but thank you so much Jatin I think this was a very useful talk and certainly a great way forward for a lot of young startups in the deep tech space who are trying to build significant businesses out there and you know we we took a few questions that came along the way but always happy to answer more questions that come from our audience please feel free to put your put your questions on the stock on Facebook or LinkedIn or wherever you like and we will request Jatin or his organization if they can actually take a few minutes to answer these questions back to everyone but Jatin this was this was really useful for a lot of young startup companies who are building their businesses and looking to grow large in the space as you say the opportunity is very big digitization is the way forward automation in whether it's in manufacturing services or other sectors is the only way that the country can really make a good shift and businesses can think of a good survival strategy post pandemic times which we are looking to go towards and hopefully the next time while you know digital is the order of the day but hopefully next time when we have a talk it will be in person rather than in across the screen just to make impact bigger any final words from you Jatin. No I think you know thank you so much for having me and if there are any entrepreneurs who are either participating in our future you know like I said you know we are looking for always good founders and good startups in the deep tech ecosystem please feel free to apply to us right you know and you know you can go to our website inflexor.bc and apply as well right so look forward to helping many more entrepreneurs in the startup ecosystem in India and have a mutually beneficial relationship with all of them yeah with that you know thanks. Thank you very much once again for your time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Jatin.