 Hello everyone, this is Ross at Teacher Talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK. Today I am super excited because I'm joined by Jim Knight and Chanel Fusco. Jim, some of you will know who works in education, appear in the House of Lords. I'll ask Jim to introduce himself in a moment. And Chanel, who is the sales director at Pickytale, a brilliant app, a free app that offers loads of reading books for parents and teachers. And kind of ping over to you, Jim. Could you just introduce yourself, your role and the things that you're up to day to day, if that's possible? Of course. Thanks, Ross. So Jim Knight, aka Lord Knight of Weymouth, a one-time MP and schools minister, you know, Eons ago, and since then been working mostly commercially in education with Tez, which is where I got to know Chanel. But in my post Tez world, back doing a little bit in Parliament, but also I'm a non-exec director of three companies. I advise Nord Anglia, I chair the E-Act multi-academy chain and I advise one or two others along the way around schools, teachers, education, technology. There you go. Many, many different hats. And Chanel, how about you, your role in Pickytale and give us a synopsis of what Pickytale is. Yeah, so I'm the UK sales director at Pickytale. You know, we're a global organisation. We're founded from Norway originally. And it's a platform, essentially, that helps kids become better readers. So we're helping teachers access hundreds and hundreds of resources that truly engage kids in the reading journey. Like Jim said, we met at Tez. So I was the general manager for the UK Western Wales doing recruitment and selling other SaaS solutions into schools. Yeah, and I guess between the three of us, you know, all that online analytical behaviour about what teachers click and times a year and seasons and what works, I guess between us, we've got quite a lot of data in our heads stored about analytics and what works from a test or a teacher talk it perspective. It's really interesting. So we'll come back to Pickytale. But Jim, can I just pop over to you? Before we go into the details of Pickytale, if we just take the theme of literacy, could I ask you two questions? One general, the general state of the nation in terms of literacy pupils or adults, and then what has happened as a result of the pandemic? Thanks. And some of this will be my impression as much as what I can pull off the data from, you know, at my sleeve somewhere. But, you know, it's informed by the work on the literacy or party parliamentary group, as well as, you know, the various things I talked about. My sense is, and we saw this dramatically in COVID that the disadvantage gap really comes to play. And we see disproportionate numbers of young people and adults from disadvantaged backgrounds who struggle with their reading. And it's still a problem. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's still a problem for a significant number of children, young people and adults. And we have a lot to do across all three of those sectors. You know, I think the literacy hour and then, you know, one of the things that Nick Gibbon in very long tenure did was champion the use of synthetic phonics. I think it was a little bit of one-club golfing. But nevertheless, I think it has made a difference to have a more systematic way of teaching reading. Those things have made a difference to children in the earlier years. But I think we've still got quite a long way to go in terms of the catch-up for young adults and young people who don't make it with confident reading in primary. A lot of that will be associated with their parents struggling to read with them at home because they themselves have reading problems. And I think we're quite a long way from being able to make a tangible difference around those adults that, I mean, they feel really self-conscious and shamed, if you like, if they know that they're struggling with their reading. And they won't really admit it. And it's very difficult to engage them and get them to, first of all, front up that they've got a problem because that's only when you front it up that you then seek the help. Yeah, I was looking at the stats on National Literacy Trust. I think 18 million, our numeracy is 18 million adults. The literacy, just a quick check on the literacy trust organization, 7.1 million adults in England alone and approximately one and a half across the other UK nations. And of course, Ross, however brilliant podcasts like this one may be, reading is just the most essential skill to be able to access learning. And we know, especially with the dynamic nature of the labor market and people being de-skilled in their jobs and so on and so forth, that we've got to keep learning. And so not only does that disadvantage children if they're struggling with their reading in terms of their other learning, but it will disadvantage them for the rest of their lives. And so it's a fundamental importance because if you looked at it really crudely as an economic problem, the nation can't afford to look after all those people who can't look after themselves because they can't really access work because they can't read. Yeah, I was reading the little leveling up paper published by Policy Exchange just before Christmas about trying to tackle that postcode lottery, I suppose, and literacy featured in there. Sorry, Chanel, I interrupted you. No, I was going to just present a little bit of a stat really that I came across the other day at three years old for the disadvantaged segment. They're hearing 30 million less words than kids from more well-to-do backgrounds. And the kids that are actually being supported with their reading day to day at the epic one of our competitors reported this stat. They're reading on average 41.3 books a year, whereas disadvantaged kids are reading about 13. So that's a massive gap. And when Jim talks about closing this gap, it's as educators, what can we do to fully support these children? And it's about getting them to access their own favourite books, giving them the agency and autonomy to be able to explore nonfiction titles that they're interested in and have content that's around solving mysteries, you know, just making it more engaging. I'm reminded of a podcast I had with Dylan William about a year ago and he said, brilliant, it kind of worked out that the average adult is likely to read about 4,000 books in their lifetime. So if you take those 4,000 books, what books are you going to read is quite an important question. And then if we go to our kind of life in schools, the selection of books that we might deliver to our pupils, in some cases where parents can't, would be quite an important decision. Jim, one more question, Jim, in terms of the insights you see at the House of Lords, what kind of things are being discussed under the umbrella of literacy at the moment? Is there anything you can tell us? Well, I guess the honest answer is there's nothing that comes instantly to mind. There's an obvious preoccupation at the moment with managing our way through COVID, you know, putting aside who's having parties where, and the fundamental issues around child development that has been stunted by, for some children, but no means all children. I think teachers and learners have been heroic in the way that they've adapted during the last two years. But there's no doubt that for the more disadvantaged people, they're more likely to then have suffered in terms of their child development. Now, at the very early years, that's some basic child development around social skills, you know, kids coming into reception still wearing nappies, all the way through to the beginnings of being literate. And that's something that there is conversation about here, about, you know, we're nervous about what we're supposed to call it, you know, because we know that people don't like catch up and they don't like some of those other phrases. But there is a developmental loss that people are really concerned about, particularly as it's hitting the most disadvantaged. And Chanel, can you give us a flavour of what Picotel is and how it might help? I guess in particular, the conversation we're having are disadvantaged peoples perhaps. Yeah, so Picotel is a reading platform for kids between the age of four and 11. It's enriched with content that's non-fiction, fiction-led titles as well. The books on there are ordinarated. We cover non-curriculum-led topics as well that really help to engage and help teachers to align their topics of literature to these types of topics of books that we're creating. We own our own publishing arm, so we're able to give rich content into schools. These resources completely for free, and you can use it on any app, so Android app, iOS app as well, and then the teacher gets a dashboard whereby they're enabled to set children's homework so that they can independently read from home as well. What we're trying to do here? And what's the database of the number of books that you've got that are freely available for parents and teachers to use? So at the moment we've got 800 free books that are leveled from level one to level eight, and they follow the Lexile levelling system, and it's really, really easy to use. It focuses on the child's age, and then it makes it appropriate for that child's reading experience and level. So the parents are able to get involved in the journey from home, but equally the teacher is able to really take control of that and support that as well. And the thing that I hear from schools the most on my travels is that actually being able to see what the child has read without having to wait for the parent to complete the book at the end of the evening to evidence that the child has read has actually saved them so much time. A great win for parents too. Yeah, definitely, and they're able to have conversation with kids the next day and say, I've seen that you've read the Sustainable Development Goals one on poverty, what did that mean to you? Now I tell you an interesting story. It might be with the friends I keep, but I'm not one or two friends that are, well to do, good intentions with the children at school, but I'm really shocked when I say, do you read to your kids? And they tell me, no, I find that fascinating and quite shocking. And if this is people who have got a roof over their head, so to speak, then going back to that disadvantage context, if you haven't got your food and water, then you've got no chance of ever picking up a book. And Ross, that's one of the things I love about Piccadale. As a parent, and I'm a re-tread now with a 10-year-old stepdaughter, and I still read to her, we've just been reading The Boy Called Christmas together. She'll read a bit and I'll read a bit. And it's just a lovely way to end their day. It's a lovely part of my evening. And that's always been the case. And what I love about Piccadale is for those parents who are not confident readers themselves, they can participate because the stress around, I'm not confident myself about what this book is saying is taken away because the book will read to them if that's what the user wants. Which is just beautifully inclusive in a way that I don't know anything else does. Yeah, I guess it has that phonetically karaoke style text, doesn't it Chanel? I think. Yeah, you can either slow it down or speed it up. It's great for children. Great for adults who struggle with reading too, I suspect. It is, yeah. And we're finding that actually once a child is bringing that home, especially kids from an EAL background, it's actually supporting the wider family as well. So it's having much greater impact than we actually thought it would do. So yeah, it's a great feature. And also, if the child wants to independently read, they can turn that feature off. But at any point, if they're struggling on a particular word, they can click it and it sounds it out for them. That's another powerful feature. Thank you. Jim, can I ask what your role is at Piccadale, why you're on the advisory board? I suspect the answers are literacy and all those, but can we unpick your kind of role working alongside Piccadale? Of course. So as you suggested in your question, my role is as a member of the advisory board at Piccadale, which Chanel's just put together. And that's both ambassadorial, you know, going out and talking on Piccadale's behalf, normally as a double act with Chanel. And then also providing some advice, particularly I think, you know, because of my work with EACT, my work with Nord Anglia, and I'm trying to get as close to schools and teachers as I can, just making sure that as the product and Piccadale develops, it's still squarely there as something that the users of the product who aren't necessarily the decision makers who choose to adopt the product, but that the users are really having their needs met and the problems that they have being solved. And I guess under that ed tech. The reason for doing it, Russ, is I love the product. You know, there are people who want me to work with them and I'll go with it if I think that they've got a good I'm sure you do. And, you know, your insights with ed tech and stuff, and we'll know that we need particularly ed tech products to be very workable for teachers in terms of reducing workload. Chanel, if I put you on the spot, how does your software make the life of a teacher easier? It's really easier to get a view of the whole class and their reading time spent as an individual on an individual level, also as a cohort level as well. And I mentioned earlier, you know, tracking the parental engagement there is quite difficult. Yet they just get it at the click of a button. You know, assigning a book is so much easier. I mean, there's one in five primary schools, the NLT is reported that don't even have a library. So the fact that they've got 800 titles at the fingers of their tips and they can just flick through and say, okay, that's for a five year old. I'll set that. Yeah, I mean, there's quite a shock in that library stat, isn't it? And plus libraries in our communities. Sorry, Jim. Yeah. Another feature that I really like is a teacher can ask the whole class to read a single title, but it will differentiate according to the reading ability. And so you'll have more vocabulary for the more advanced readers in a class. So it's inclusive in that everybody is reading the same title. And seeing the same images. And yet it's still able to adapt according to the reading ability. And I guess that online kind of technology allows the teacher to track, you know, their engagement, how far the reader wears on a physical book. You don't have that data, so to speak, unless you all read, you know, my memories from school, we all read the same passage together, etc. And Jim, how do you feel that Piccatelle can make a big difference? You know, in your advisory role, you know, looking at their software today, how do you see your expertise developing it, taking it further? And now, just before I ask Jim that question, how many people are using Piccatelle at the moment, schools or pupils? Yeah, we've got 34,000 active users. So pupils are engaging and reading So Jim, so how do we get, you know, let's go big, how do we get 17 million adults? Worth saying 34,000 from a standing start six months ago. So yeah, that's pretty impressive it shows how compelling the product is. But yeah, obviously the size of what we're chasing after, because we're not just England based, we're not just UK based, you know, it's a global business, is massive. And I think, you know, part of it is just awareness, you know, as you said, it's a free product for schools with all of the Piccatelle content. There's other content as well, which some children find really engaging because it's content like Marvel and Disney and some of that. So they can, you know, all that stuff that they might be consuming on Disney plus they can then also read about. Now that that comes at a cost and some parents are choosing to pay for that. And, you know, some of that can add some engagement. And the more of those sorts of titles that we can get in. I think there's something really interesting then about about taking books to where people are rather than dragging people to books. Well, I was going to ask the question, you know, I was going to ask the question personally, you know, we've all grown up where we like, we have to hold a book, you know, with digital technology all around us. What's your preference today, Jim? Are you a bit of a mixed blended approach with your digital devices? Or do you like picking up a book? I am blended. You know, if I, the last book I finished was where the Crowdads sing. Was it physical or digital? And that was physical. But digitally, when I'm on, when I'm commuting into Parliament on the train, I'm reading Tim Brighouse and Mick Waters' new book about schooling on a Kindle app on my phone of all things. On my Kindle at home, I am reading Middlemarch by George Elliott, because I thought I should go back to a classic, but also by my bedside, which I pick up occasionally as Chris Packham's book about the environment and COVID and getting closer to nature. So that's a physical book. I do love a physical book. So right now I'm reading the Monkey Who Soldered Ferrari. And I'm really enjoying that and I'm enjoying, you know, turning the page. But I am actually an audiobook listener. So I was going to ask the question, if you listen to a book, is that reading or listening reading or what's the word for, you're still reading, but you're listening to it? I don't know what the word is, but I'm enjoying it. You know, so I tap into all my TED talks and things like that. I prefer to really listen to that when I'm driving as opposed to watching it as a video or something like that. I suppose that auditory process is still developing your literacy under the umbrella of speaking, listening, writing, reading, et cetera. If I answer the question, I'm reading Inventing Ourselves by Sarah Jane Blackmore, the Teenage Brain Scientist. And I've got this to hand, this is my doctoral troubles looking at social media research methods. That's a big one. So that's my physical one, because I have to reference it. And then I'm trying to tackle Pennymore, but my dance new book on post Brexit. You might have seen that was published just before Christmas. I should say the other physical books that I've been reading, I've been reading with Coco, my stepdaughter. So when she finishes the latest Percy Jackson, I will pick that up and rattle through that in a day or two, just so that we're we're reading some of the same things and we can talk about what she's reading. So, Jim, let me ask, you know, let's go back to the hard questions. What are your recommendations for people watching this in terms of that, you know, raising the profile of reading with disadvantaged communities, parents, pupils, you know, Shalp made that stat about some schools don't have libraries, et cetera. Jim, any recommendations? Well, look, I think make it as easy as possible for people to read is a sort of really good starting point. And, you know, pick it up as part of that and libraries are another part of that. And it might be that libraries become places where you borrow devices as much as borrow books so that you can then access some of these things. But then think about yeah, you can make a logical case for reading. You know, this is really important to your future, et cetera, et cetera. But I think what we start to understand about behavior change is you've also got to make a case that's emotional. And what's the what's the emotional reason for reading? And that's why I go back to that beautiful moment in a day when you're reading together as a parent with children. And it can be equally a beautiful moment in school where you have reading volunteers or yeah, the reading corner on the carpet. There's a sort of there's a just a beautiful intimacy in a highly appropriate way, but an intimacy about getting lost in a world that a book can take you to together. That I would just want to sell to everyone as something it's there for you every day. Go there. And Chanel, back to you that one in five stats. So, you know, your insights or you know, you get into skills occasionally. You see great libraries, you see people interested in the product. Any recommendations for those schools that are struggling to develop a database of books, you know, you've got the picketail app, but what kind of things have you seen online as well as physically? Yeah, I've seen a lot of there's a big movement actually, just from people on Twitter that are actually just collecting books, being donated books to go and give into schools and stuff. I think they're really good initiatives are strong, they're promotional as well. But I just think, you know, we've got an issue around this devices access to devices as well and still don't know the full numbers across the UK schools in England. I'd love that data. But I think, you know, giving children the option to explore different stuff in the way that they want to. So even just reading Chris, Chris packet, the back of Chris packet, you know, anything like that, it's still some form of reading. And Jimmy might know I live in West Yorkshire now I left London in the pandemic. So I find myself in deep in the valley occasionally where there is no phone signal. And a reminder of a Chanel said, you know, I can't tweet down in the valley, but about 8% of our the UK is still not connected to a broadband connection, I believe. Is that right? That will be about right. And I'm also reminded of a great phrase by Edie Hirsch. So you know, you know, the term cultural capital, he's synonymous with cultural literacy. And Nick Gibb was a big fan of it. But when I had a conversation with him a couple of years ago, he he said this phrase, I've never forgotten, make your classroom a speech community and going back to that emotional strand, Jim. You know, we can't leave oracy, you know, literacy to chance. It's something that you need to teach your children at home as well as in class. So I guess one question. What's your favorite word at the moment? My new word is diaphanous. I love it. And it's because I've got into garden since I've moved to Yorkshire. And it's all about delicate and light and things like that. So diaphanous is my favorite word. Jim, you got a favorite word? I've always loved discombobulate. I like that word. It's a good word. I think I might pass on this one. I have to really think about it. I'll come back to you now. So I'm going to wrap things up. So now just before we do, could you just give us the link to the pick a tell app that you want our listeners and viewers to go to? Yeah. So it's pick a tale. So p i c k a t a l e dot co dot u k. It's really, really simple. So we'll put that in all the links. So just to conclude that I kind of throw loads of quick fire questions to you both to kind of catch you off guard a bit like Timmy's mallet. See if I'm getting you to pause or hesitate. So Jim, you'll have a lot of answers to this question. What project are you working on today? Today I'm in the House of Lords voting on the police crime and sentencing bill and voting mostly against it. I am also working on I've got a Nord Anglia advisory board meeting. I'll be doing some work on E Act. And I'm sure there'll be some other projects along the way that I'll get. Thank you. So now how about you? I'm actually working with Siddiqui Education at the moment and we're doing a national campaign called books on the box. And we're using five of the Pigtail Sustainable Development Goals titles and kids will be creating on Google box, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So kids will be creating a three minute video trailer of their interpretation of the book and they come in and I had so it's going to be such a good campaign to get them involved. Jim, what's the book for me? It was Sophie's world that really got me engaged with reading as a teenager. What book was it for you? I would go with Zola's Germinal. Germinal Chanel. As a teenager. I'll be honest, I didn't read a lot. Right, I started my, I know, I know. Pick it up. What about magazine? Actually, no, no, no, no, no. It has to be the Cat in the Hat box series. I do remember my dad used to read that to me every single day. So it's the poodles eating noodles with my favourite. Okay, nice. Top tip for parents to engage their children with reading. Read to them every day. Okay, Chanel. I absolutely concur with that, you know, just even if it's for a couple of minutes, just read something, anything. Okay. And my last question, Jim, what's the book you've never read that you want to? So it might be one of those epic, you know, Doomsday books or whatever it would be, which one have you never had time to? Are you saving for retirement? Crikey. I guess I've always been too daunted to get into any James Joyce. Too slow and potentially boring. And I ought to have the patience to give it a proper go. Right, well, there you go. Chanel, how about you? Well, I've just got back into my fitness and like mindset and everything. So there's a book by David Goggins. It can't hurt me or something like that. And I really, really want to sit down but be in the right frame of mind to absorb the content. Yeah, obviously of West Yorkshire now. So I'm in the Bronte land, having read Jane Eyre for my A-Level English Literacy, watched the film again just before Christmas. I need to pick the book up again. So that would be my answer. Right, I'm going to let you both go. Jim, you're super busy, juggling lots of different things. Chanel, thank you for your insights and your free reading at Piccertale for free for parents and schools. So please download Piccertale, everyone. And I hope you enjoy using the software. Thank you both for your time. Thanks for watching. Take care. Have a good day. Bye for now. Bye.