 We're live. Welcome everybody back to Segal Talks here at the Martin E. Segal Theater Center, the Great Center CUNY in New York City in Manhattan at the City University. And for us, I think it's week 14 or even 15 of our talks which we started in March. And since then, we have taken a simpler survey of what is happening to our profession, to our colleagues in the world of theater and performance thinkers and curators for theater and performance. And we have traveled around the globe. Over 70s, 80 artists and countries have been part of these talks. It's a unique document we are realizing actually now where we are archiving the presence. And most probably will be the only profession that has such a wide record of what happened and how did people feel? What did they think about? What actions did they take? And what solutions or ideas on your forms that are emerging and it's still ongoing? Of course, the crisis does not seem to go away. We all thought that the summer will be perhaps a time where we have to worry less. It gets warmer, the virus will go away, but it's not. The case still have 2.5 million infections worldwide, 500,000 dead people. America, of course, because it's a large number of people here, but still America is at the forefront with so many cases, 120,000, 130,000 confirmed cases. Most probably it's the double. People say also infections are 10 times higher, so maybe 25 million are infected and still hurt. Immunity is only 1% or 2% of the population have it. There's 70 would need it. So it's all shocking. We have a government that seems to be incompetent to handle it. They played it down, didn't take it serious. Trump refuses to wear a mask, tell people to inject a disinfectant, was hiding in a bunker when there was a little demonstration that seemed to be out of control in front of the White House. He's threatening to use military against their own people. He's supposed to protect them and help them. Helicopters were flying in war tactics, maneuver-like actions over protesters yesterday. Two people in St. Louis, in a little private neighborhood, a gated community were drawing guns and similar automatic weapons against protesters. The mayor, against common sense, listed names officially of people who said defund the police, take some of the money, put it in social services, perhaps even in art, put it in prison reform. And she read the names and addresses out loud in Missouri after the Ferguson murder of Trevor Martin. Many protesters got killed mysteriously and they are under threat, so she did this publicly. And people said, well, then we also go where you are, but she's in a gated community. People went in 200, very peacefully, but they opened the door, broke, I see this deal, and they got threatened by guns. Trump retweeted it, of course, without anything. So temperatures are rising. Over 40 million people filed for unemployment and some of them are about 20 million down now. And slowly things are opening and now they are closing again. Texas, Arizona, Florida have catastrophic situations. They ignored it, they made fun of the situation, that it's a democratic hoax and now their people are paying with their lives for that. And New York City has been a fantastic, actually, in the resolve. It was the last to make plans to open up and they only last Thursday, 18 new infections per day. We had 1,200 in May, so something seems to be working, but also the governors of New York and New Jersey are alarmed by the spikes in numbers and they are reconsidering the opening. The phase three was supposed to start at July 6th. All restaurants can open at 50% capacity, but they are wondering if this is the right thing to do. Western owners are furious, they bought all the supplies and there might not be possible, but it's serious, it's about people's lives and nobody really has a good answer. The European Union announced today that 15 states will come and fly, can have their airplanes come to Europe again. The US is not under it, it joins countries like Russia and Brazil. It's a shocking development. I think Algeria, Australia, China, Canada, Georgia, Japan, Montenegro, Morocco, New Zealand, even Rwanda, Serbia, South Korea, Thailand, Tunisia, and you're required, everybody can fly in, but the disastrous politics here in the US, not really thinking ahead of testing, not thinking ahead of having heat sensors and events and Trump's closing of the US borders overnight without consultation. And there were very, very low numbers even in the Europe. Meanwhile, US became such a disaster. It was shocking also to Europeans and Europeans seem to have it a bit better under control. So Broadway yesterday announced that it did close down, it was gonna be dark till the end of the year, most probably till next spring, nothing is happening. Devastating news for artists, everybody involved technicians, white people, Metropolitan Opera hasn't paid their people since March. And we don't know what will happen, 60 million tours normally come more to New York City, it's all breaking away there. It's no restaurants and everybody wonders what will happen to New York. Will it be the same city we all love and know and also yesterday, but it's came in. And choreographer from the Laundromat Project we did had a serious conversation about the city and the future and how neighborhoods have to stick together, how we have to create places and for that. So we are in deep, deep sorrow, but we are not the only one of course in the world who have such problems. We all hope a virus vaccination will come soon. The yesterday, the antiviral drug Remdesivir which has some moderate success was introduced was probably a treatment will be between two and a half thousand and three thousand dollars to produce the pill, it's only five dollars even covering costs in a little profit. So it could be just twenty five dollars and American taxpayers have to pay for airplane industries, car industries to bail out big things but they still want three thousand dollars per patient from an industry that seems to be now doing well. It's just shows everything is so wrong. Everybody who lost their job in America lost health insurance. It's a disaster and we don't really know where this will be happening. Lambos in Brazil and Iran everywhere are scary and artists are responding. Artists are the ones on the right side in the complex struggle for freedoms and liberties. Artists are the one who on the side of social progress always have anticipated the future on the present. See perhaps a bit better of what it is and we all should have listened to them earlier in so many plays and warned about catastrophes, ecological disasters. And today we have two significant artists from the world of theater with us and I'm really thrilled to have them with us. There is Janina Cabunario from Romania to say it right and Yechon Niziri from Kosovo. Both of them have been at the Segal. Both of them are a significant artist of their own. Janina is a director, playwright and manager of theater and the curator of a theater festival in Romania. She has been at the Kamarskjula Munich and many, many other places. Yechon is the director of his own company in Kosovo after serving as the artistic director of the National Theater in Kosovo as a playwright. He has worked in many, many places including folks from the Berlin. He came to New York City, to La Mama where we had a great discussion and the German theater that site magazine says he is the Kafka of the Balkans as a playwright. So these are two serious artists who are politically engaged, socially engaged and we are here to listen to them. So you guys, sorry for my long introduction. We just are a little bit upset here in the US about what's happening and we also looking outside to see what are artists thinking what are they doing, what forms are they finding. So tell us a little bit, maybe Janina, we start with you, what time is it? Where are you? I'm in Bucharest and it's 7 p.m. I'm not in the city where the theater is. The theater is in the city of Piatra Nams and it is called Tartul Tineretului but for the moment I'm in Bucharest and with Yeton, we just finished our participation in a digital festival in Volksbühne a few days ago. A digital festival at the Volksbühne, wonderful. Yeton, where are you? I am home in Prishtina in Kosovo. So now it's 6 p.m. Yes, and yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation after your very dramatic introduction. So I hope you will relax a little bit. Yes, yes, yes, so tell us, what happened at the Volksbühne? Which one do you want? Which perspective? There are two. Well, each one can say one of them or one of you, yeah. Janina, maybe. Well, very briefly it was a festival called the Post-West about the world after East and West and we started to work together since June, 2019 to meet to prepare the festival that was supposed to happen in May, 2020. And because of this situation with the coronavirus, we had to, how do you say, to change from the live concept to a digital one. So the festival happened between 24th and 26th of June and each of us had to send the digital contribution to the festival. And of course, apart these digital productions or products, there are a lot of panels and discussions and Q&As with the artists invited from another 10 countries if I'm not mistaken, yet on. 10 or 12, but it's important to say that it took maybe until mid-April until they decided that the original festival is not going to happen as it was planned. So basically we had really around three weeks maybe to prepare something digitally for the festival in June. So it was also for us lots of pressure, but I guess also for them. And I mean, the main struggle that we have to say was that for us it was surprising that they were not able to find a slot for the festival even next year. I mean, this year it was obvious that they had no, I mean, IDI theater will be open, but also next year they couldn't find a slot. And that was interesting and it is interesting in my opinion also because it shows how German theater works. We had another big project that was canceled and that had nothing to do with this year that was planned, the production or co-production was planned for 2021 and it was canceled now as a consequence of this, I mean, this pandemic now. And this is for me interesting because I mean, in here we plan things or things might go wrong for the next two, three months but not that far in that far away, in advance. Is it already with Rainier Polish at the helm at the Volksbühne or is it still the in-between time between Polish or Kostov? It's in-between. It's in-between. So tell us a bit, what did it mean for you to adapt, to react to Corona time? You were preparing a show to travel there was a theater play and then you couldn't. So what did you do? What did you decide? What complications and what solutions did you find? First it came as a shock to everybody and the first discussion, the first time we heard about this possibility of changing to a digital version was on 28th of April and then we decided on 15th of May, yet on, if you remember. Yes, yes, yes. It was very, very short time and it was a shock because actually we were all and we are all theater artists. So it's very, I don't know, strange in one second to shift your, even your ways of expression. For instance, I decided to do a visual essay and not to record the reading or something. I really had to change completely my way of thinking for this project. What's a visual essay? What's a visual essay? Well, it's, what I wanted to do is in a way to document a process, my own process, my personal process as an artist. So when the lockdown started in Romania, I had to stop the rehearsals. I was just starting the rehearsals but I've done before some research and even recordings. I was traveling and recording different things on the topic of waste, of the transport of the waste from West to East to Romania. So, but not only this, a lot of other subjects somehow interfere with this topic of waste. So I had a part of recordings from that moment of research. And then I took from different photographers, photos with things that were, I don't know, interesting or strange for me during the lockdown, like the moment of the workers leaving Romania during lockdown to Germany to work. So this was a very strange movement in the middle of lockdown. And I'm sure everybody knows about this thing. And the... The other scenes at the airports, no mask, nobody could come in, but thousands could come out. When they were gone, they wouldn't be let in because they were afraid that they could have the virus. It's a kind of schizophrenic situation. Exactly. And then also in connection with the East and West, we all know what happened afterwards after they left Romania. I mean, there are huge scandals now in Germany about the situation of these people. Of course, these precarious working conditions were already existing for many, many years, but now they became very clear. Yeah, slaughterhouses in Germany had the highest infection next to old age homes. By the way, I think 50% of all corona cases in the US are in old age homes. But the slaughterhouses in Germany next to old age homes have the highest concentration, a lot of 2,000 workers, 300 or more have corona virus and they live together in terrible conditions. They rent, pay to the boss or the company they work for. They don't show up for work healthy. They will, money will be taken away. They have to pay extra fines. And so as you said, it was intolerable before, intolerable before. It existed before because I was documenting this situation five years ago. It was exactly the same with people living together like eight in a room and so on with very bad working conditions. But also they have no health insurance in Germany. So the moment something happens to them, they are really without any help. So I think this is a huge topic now in Europe and not only about these precarious conditions and to put it very directly, modern slavery because it's exactly what it is. And then of course in this essay, visual essay, I was trying also to bring people that were initially in the project like my actors. So I had them as well. And I also had the Zoom meeting, the shocking Zoom meeting on 28th of April when we were announced that we changed from live festival to digital festival. So in a way, I tried to put together all this year of research meetings and also, how do we say these concrete things from the reality and also our personal and our artistic journey somehow. Put them together in this, I don't know, frame of tensions between East and West. That's what I'm talking about. People in different homes, different Zoom, people were just from their homes joining or was it just you reading and playing, sharing your screen? Well, I was not reading myself. I found the digital voice because my contribution was called Post-West Something Digital. So I had the digital voice reading the essay and then you could see all these pictures and how do you say videos going on? It's wonderful, almost like Lola Arias should invite you for her series of research. Yeah, there's a big scandal with the Romanian workers and the tennis business owner of a third almost of all German slaughterhouses. He gives his money to soccer clubs, Schalke and Bielefeld, big millions and it was accepted. And people knew somehow something isn't wrong with subcontractors and sub-subcontractors but with so many things Corona exposes structures and it's a good thing, yeah. I would add to what you said, the fact that about East and West, it proved that Clemens Tonis has huge business with land in Romania. So he's also very much involved in this agro-industrial thing in Romania. So there are so many connections actually in Europe today and the moment you start to look carefully, like we could do in the pandemic, you could see there a lot of abuse actually. And also we can see what happens in these slaughterhouses and asparagus farms, but there is one thing that nobody spoke about yet, like really carefully and this is domestic care because there are a lot of women going to Italy, to Austria or to Germany, but there it's private, how do you say, house. So you cannot enter, you don't know what's going on inside. And I think, yeah, it's another door that should be open. And families also put healthcare workers at risk. They think, oh, the healthcare workers might but could be families because infections come through families. Jaten, how did you deal with that? What was your contribution to the festival original and how did you change it? Well, we plan to produce a normal theater performance called the Return of Karl May. So we had the well-known German author and especially our focus was on one of his novels called the Dursch das Landeskippetaren through the lens. Yes, yes, it's Kara Benemsi, the hero, yeah. Well, we have actually Kara Benemsi as the main character who shows up in Kosovo and with a group of Kosovo actors, he aims for the German lands, so where he belongs. That was the original plan. And normally, we wanted to start in around 15th of March to rehearse with a group of six actors from the National Theater, but this was, of course, not possible. So then when this idea for the digital festival came, so of course, we were also panicking what to do and this is not our field, it's not something we can handle. But then we decided that we can actually film. For me, as a playwright, I thought, let's film rehearsed reading, I mean, let's go to National Theater and actors can read, but then he bled as a director, she wanted something more and then what we got is a 40 minutes extracts from the future theater production. So I don't know how I should call this, but I called it video extracts from a theatrical production. Interesting, so let's say you shut out, so you said I present video extracts from a future production. Yeah. That's almost like a title of an art exhibition. Yeah. I mean, the title of the production is the return of Karl Maier and the under title is entertaining play for German people. So I mean, what you got is 40 minutes extracts that have some sort of dramaturgy and also video dramaturgy, but it was all filmed in one day actually in Russia and they did it also in Russia and it was presented there. So that's, you know, contribution. You filmed it in the theater or outside? Or inside the stage? In toilets on stage in the, I don't know, on balcony of the theater. That day there was a protest. The Balkans, yeah, of the balcony. Well, yeah, balcony. There was a protest of the opposition, so we were able to actually film one scene having this echo of the people screaming, you know, whatever they were screaming. So you said the venue of the National Theater and of course now what you get is not what we aim, but it shows you, it gives you some ideas, some impulses of what the play will be in real life. Yeah. How interesting. Yeah, we had Richard Forman, the great Richard Forman, the New York director, avant-garde director and because also he can't move as much anymore physically, but now he does two or three days of filming and then almost for a year, sometimes a year and a half, he edits it, manipulates it, thinks about it and says, I'm interested in this moment. So it's a changing world. Carl May for our views. He's a German, almost romantic writer who most of his 83 novels were about Wild West in America where a noble white man and his native American friend within it who have adventures and bring kind of a Christian belief as gentlemen to a country that has violence on each side and as guy who never really went to America and he wrote also a couple of adventures, romantic novels about the Middle East and the Far East. By the way, he wrote a play about, one theater play about an Arab, about the noble Arabs and which nobody has ever done yet. But so how was it for you in your country, the experience of corona? When you heard about it, was it just about the way, what did you do? Were you in your home with your family? I wasn't in. How did you experience it? I was rehearsals, actually. I was rehearsing and I had to stop because it was obvious that, I think I stopped two days before the lockdown started because at the rehearsals, we are talking only about this. So I said, okay, let's have a few days and I will try to write because I'm writing and rehearsing in the same time. And then the lockdown came and I came back to Bucharest. For how long were you in lockdown? How strict was it in Romania? Two months, two months. And yes, it was quite strict for how do you say normal population. But then again, I told you, there were other movements. So you had the workers living in the middle of a very strict lockdown and again, waste coming in transports, in bales in Romania. So it's very interesting that because of the lockdown, you could see these movements. For me, it was very interesting. And there was other thing very interesting in Bucharest because I came to Bucharest from Chiatranam and for two weeks, the air was unbreathable. And we still don't have a clear answer why? Because in the first day, in the lockdown, the air was very clear. And then apparently, there were some incinerators burning waste. So I was surrounded by this waste story and even could feel it myself. So for two weeks, every night, it was really strange. So that was my personal experience of this. So Western capitalist exploiting workers, buying up cheap property for agricultural also, most probably unsafe practices like the slaughter, the inhumane slaughter of these poor animals and the fast speed, these workers have to do it. And then top of it, they export the waste from the West to the East. So that can only imagine how that feels. And we also heard from Mikaela Tragan that Roma families by the police, the police came, they were harassed, they were looked at as potential spreaders. They were beaten up with no reason. And some neighborhoods had preferred treatment, and so it also exposed the structures of Romanian society. Absolutely, because as I said, everything was already there, social and economical inequalities. And I don't know, a lot of environmental issues and then you have, I don't know, this precarious health system. So everything was there. It's just that with the pandemic, we could see it very, very clear. And how are numbers now in Romania? Well, actually we started this period of relaxation, let's say on the 15th of May. And apparently the numbers are increasing. I mean, it's not like we should relax. That's what the numbers say. But I think in Romania, but not only in the East, we are quite mimetic. So now we have like, I don't know, appearing all this conspiracy movements, all this, I don't know, guys saying don't wear masks, blah, blah, blah. And I think the society starts to be very divided. And yeah, I think we are living quite interesting times. And I think for the theater, because as you said at the beginning, we thought, okay, this is terrible, it will go. But now we realize that we have to deal with that for a longer time and to try to, I don't know, to be creative within these limitations and to stay together with our audiences, at least to make a sign, look, we still exist, we are here and we are trying to get in contact with you. To make a little knock, knock at the door, how are you? Yeah, we are here. Yatun in Kosovo, tell us a bit, how was the everyday experience? When did the lockdown start? How serious was it? Did people take it serious? I was in Zurich actually rehearsing, attending a production in a small theater called Winkelwiese, a play called Swiss Connection about this Marxist-Leninist groups of Kosovo that were operating in Switzerland in the 80s and 90s. So I actually was able to catch the very last plane from Switzerland, Kosovo, yes, I was very lucky. But two actors from Kosovo, they, you know, because in Switzerland, it was still very normal in mid of February. So you couldn't see any difference. Anyway, in Kosovo, it was different. So it started earlier. So I came back, but the actors then remained there and one of them came after maybe two, three weeks and he had to stay in quarantine for like two weeks. It was total lockdown. I mean, you could not go out at all. I mean, we had the limited period, I think in the first 90 minutes only. And this 90 minutes was according to the, to some numbers of the ID cards. So your last number of ID cards was let's say nine, you could go out from 10 a.m. to 11 30 and so on. So after some time, I think in April, it changed. It became, yeah, maybe three hours in total. So you could go out again, according to some numbers. And social distancing or not, or just say go out by three hours you can go, but 21 hours you can't go. Everything and also cities, separate cities were in quarantine. So you could not really move, let's say for a certain period, I was not able to go out of Pristina. But this was one, let's say, drama that was, that we were coping somehow, seeing the others around and learning. It was, for me, traumatic in the beginning, hoping that it will pass as I think everybody knows. Traumatic in what sense? Traumatic that I was not able to write. I was not able to do anything creatively. I was drinking, eating and sleeping. And then when they started to say that it will take until maybe May, I was saying to myself, oh, that's not bad actually. I have some time in my mind I was writing nearly two plays, but in reality, reality proved that it was not like that. But what I wanted to say is that in mid, middle of this pandemic, then the government collapsed. I mean, they received no vote, no confidence vote. No confidence vote, yeah. Exactly. And this was also a big, big social trauma, so to say because the new government that just came in power for like 50 days had to actually leave because of some international Euro-Atlantic tensions between Europe and USA and the former prime minister who was kicked out of his office. He was not able, he was not willing to go in the line of Trump's policy who insisted in a fast peace deal between Kosovo and Serbia because obviously he wants some sort of diplomatic success or the US election. No, so the ex prime minister was not willing to do something fast and without really content. So then they kind of kicked him out and the new government came in that beginning. They promised some five million years for the artistic scene and we were all very enthusiastic that this money might come in. It is coming actually in the right moment but it never came actually. Never arrived. Never arrived. And so what happened is that in that beginning theaters gathered together to show the online production recorded shows of the past and that was very interesting to see that people wanted to see them. At least the first month, you know the national theater, the first show of national theater got around 100,000 views. Really? Yeah, yeah. It was really- Some of your shows? The one of national theater, comedy. I mean all shows got around 15,000 views and so on. So it was interesting period where people I think wanted maybe not to see shows because for me it was not, it is still not interesting to see online theater but I think they connected that to the idea of freedom. So the online shows reminded them of the past time when they could go freely to the theater and watch shows. So it was interesting period that in May started to fade out and the interest was much lower but nevertheless theaters somehow gathered together to create something and to react to the situation. And we have to have in mind that this is very small theater scene. I mean in total you don't have more than 25 theater production being produced in a season. So in the country. In the country, yes, in the whole console. Yeah, that's amazing. How is artist support in Romania? Did you get any support from the government? Is there any promises even made? Do you as an artist, Janina, did you get anything from your government? There are two cases in Romania. It's the case of state institutions which are subsidized by the state. And yes, the state continued to subsidize the theaters because everybody is on salary and... I'm just saying that this is the case of people employed by state theater. Yes, but this is of course not the case of independent companies and freelance artists. And for them, yes, they got some, how do you say, some support, some financial support, not big, but still something for this period of time. But then just to have a reaction to this, again, pandemic showed that access to arts, to culture in general shouldn't be a luxury. And a lot of, I mean, subsidies, the state should support artists and art. We see what is going on now in UK, for instance, where theater are facing this danger to close down. In Romania and other countries in Europe, in the state institutions, we are still safe. We don't know for how long, but still we have this support. So yes, it's different if you are a freelance or if you are a state institution. In our case, people were paid the salaries like normal, but of course, I was always trying to explain that we are working during this time. I mean, we were proposing to the audience workshops online, interactive concerts, the actors worked for this. And we as a team, we spend a lot of time together, even if it was on Zoom, to reimagine a way to communicate with our audiences. So basically we had a lot of work to do during the lockdown. Yeah, our friends at Tia Varsola, Georgina said, they actually worked much more if they look at ours. They were involved in planning for their theaters, meetings with politicians, everybody, people, staff, keep it exhausting and a huge burden placement. But yes, I think you're right. Access to art, access to healthcare, access to education is basic human right, should be covered and should be covered by taxes and for the greater good. How is it for you yet on? Do you think the theater scene in Kosovo will be hit hard? Will it be, or do you think it is something I think we can survive because we never had as much as to rely on a support from the state? No, it's true. I mean, that's, as I explained, it's very small theater scene. And so also politically and socially looking at the landscape, we always had crisis. Somehow this was one addition, maybe different crisis, but as I say often, we come from crisis, we go to a new crisis. So it's hard to make any big difference that when it comes to the theater scene, majority of the theater artists are employed in the public institutions. Let's say national theater or other city theaters. And what we have so far is only two independent theaters. So one is Chandra Multimedia that I run and the other one is Oda Theater, both in Pristina. In fact, Chandra Multimedia closed its venue because the owner decided to sell the venue. So now we are trying to join forces with Oda Theater so we can at least keep one of those. So you lost your space? We lost our space, not directly because of the corona, but somehow in the owner wanted, you know, cash and, you know, he sold the venue. And it is now in the corona time it happened? No, in June. So from the first of, fifth of June, actually we lost our venue that we... It's a very big loss, yeah. It is, it is. In fact, it's more lost for Pristina because a cultural venue has been lost. And while we got used to co-produce and work in mobility, so to say, so we always used to co-produce or work with other city theaters or with national theater, but that venue in that particular place of Pristina has been lost. And it's, you know, we had that for nearly 10 years organizing this well-known international literature festival, a polyp that became, you know, popular in the southeast in Europe and producing rehearsing. We couldn't show our work there because the venue was small, really a basement, but at least we could rehearse until 10 days before the premiere. So that is gone now. Now we are trying to see how we can keep this other venue that the other theater is having, this Oda theater. And the municipality is promising that they will take the, you know, the rent. So we don't have to pay the rent because the rent is quite high. We'll see. I mean, we are now in this position of trying to survive. So to go back to the question, it's hard to see the damage that has been made or is being made from the corona because, you know, theater scene was not that strong here and it didn't have any big impact. So to say everything was concentrated in Pristina while national theater artists keep getting their salaries. You know, that is one of the opportunities you have when you work in public institutions. While the independent artists, any way they used to survive, you know, in different ways through television, commercial videos or whatever, or lots of them working as the waiters in cafeterias. And in that sense, yes, that can be considered as a loss because of course, cafeterias are closed. So indirectly, yes. Yeah, we do hear alarming signs from Eastern Europe where we always looked up as great superpowers of theater, I think, Poland, Hungary, the Kosovo and Bulgaria, Romania, there were strong, strong traditions. But now, openly, the prime minister of Hungary, you know, is censoring or promoting economic censorship, defunding theaters, replacing artistic directors with people from the party or people who have the idea of the Heimat of traditional Hungarian-Hungarian plays. And Poland, of course Warsaw is different in the cities, but on the countryside also, it's a traumatic defunding and open hostilities. They're even declared gay and lesbian free zones. People are beaten up again and money has been reduced. And of course, in some areas in Poland or in Hungary, especially Hungary, you know, people are afraid. They do not know what their life will bring if they can continue their work in theater. They have made such a great contribution. We also here in Albania, the National Theater, and was destroyed, if I understand right, also because of real estate interests, Jeter and David Gotthard also, the great guy who ran the Riverside Studios in London when the Riverside Studios were the Riverside Studios, you know, and forwarded it. It's also a devastating sign. What do you know about the destruction of that theater? Well, I mean, the theater was raised, was destructed in the middle of pandemic on 17th of May, if I remember well. So that was somehow the end of a three year struggle of a group of artists who were guarding the theater day and night, basically sleeping there since three years when the government announced the idea of building a new theater. So basically the situation was that, National Theater was, it is, it was in fact in the city center there in a very nice place built by fascists during the occupation of Albania, Italian fascism, and it was an old theater in a bad shape, definitely. It looked like an old garage building, almost like an airplane hangar, yeah, exactly. But still it was, you know, a kind of collective memory. It was more than just the theater. It was the history, not only the theater history of Albanian in all those 80 years. So it was a symbol of Tirana, you know. And so people were trying to protect. Inside it was also in a bad shape, but it remained in a bad shape because the government and not only just this actual government, but all the other governments they desperately wanted to prove that it's not worthy investing in this theater. So they invested in the idea of destruction for like nearly 30 years. They want to. Meanwhile, Peter Prug said, I want to have an old Tikrable theater, Le Bouff, do you know, I don't want a new one. You know, it represents the world and we are trying to do something and we are not an institution. We do not represent the state power. You know, we are artists and that's our space. So it's stunning that you lost your theater, you know. I'm most shocking actually for everybody. I mean, the idea behind, of course, is to serve oligarchs because National Theater is having a huge land around. So basically they want to build a new theater somewhere there and then use the land behind to build tall buildings at shopping malls. Yeah, all that. So it is, it was shocking especially from the fact that the actual prime minister is former artist himself. So that was really a bit, you know, I mean, the fact that he for like nearly 10 years that he's in power in fact, instead of using his creativity and his artistic ability to help and support artists, in fact he was mostly supporting and helping rebuilding his image. So he was having exhibitions in different galleries and promoting himself. Well, in his own country he kind of showed symptoms of an autocrat, you know, by destroying this theater but also by, I mean, controlling the way he's controlling medias. It's really scary and I think those are all symptoms that we see not only as you said in Hungary but also in other countries in like Albania but as well in Serbia. Yeah, now it is a really shocking and one that does not understand that especially Europe and Eastern Europe that had such a great addition that it would not respect its own history. It's always much more than the place itself. Just to continue this because I mean, the story of this national theater is, it becomes more tragic from the fact that Albania is the only country in Europe as far as I know on that has no independent cultural scene. So no independent theaters are existing in Albania. So everything is functioning through the public theaters and so when you only have public theaters, of course then you can easily control because you are the one to support them and then when you have the money then you can easily support. And this is the case in Albania. That's why the civil society and the artistic community who posed the idea of destruction of the theater was overlapped, so to say. They were guarding the theater sleeping there but still they were not able to really keep it. I mean, maybe it was not even possible because the actual prime minister got very strong recently but at least in all conditions, let's say if I compare this situation to Kosovo, I hardly can imagine that a scenario like that could happen here in Albania. And how wonderful that a community comes out, fights for a theater, feels connected, occupies a space. Everybody wants to have built audience and community. There it was. And in a way like this shocking, in a way destruction of the Volksbühne under Kastor were some political misunderstandings most probably and so many hundreds of thousands of people signed. So why dismantle a community, a theater that works and replace it with something that's uncertain and the in-between time. Now it is of course changing and with you and the festival but it was also stunning that it happened in Germany that, but it was a political thing, not a destruction of a place which also is a kind of a visual representation of a value of an historic place and no one would take down the old house where if Abraham Limkelen grew up because it's old. So it's of course a signifier for something that is really wrong and the disrespect and disregard for arts represents something is wrong in every society where theater strives, artist strives is a great way to show that it's a functioning society and the way that what happens here, what we hear just shows something is terribly wrong. I think that's, I mean destruction of a physical building, yes, it is a loss. And in this case, it was a big loss. But I think the biggest destruction is the kind of attacking the idea of the theater. I mean, this total degradation that in case of Albania was happening for nearly 30 years now after the collapse of communism there. And this is for me, the fact that this small group, even a small group of theater artists there decided to protect the theater gives hope. Gives hope, this, you know, it inspires people and it shows that, you know, the idea should remain, the idea of theater should remain alive because for me, a theater space like that one was a symbol of freedom. I mean, they even had an open microphone in front of the theater outside in the garden but nearly every night somebody was, you know, communicating something to the audience. No matter if there were only five or 10 people listening but, you know, artists, civil society journalists would go to this open microphone every evening. So it became some sort of agora to discuss not only the issues around the theater but issues around, you know, the future and actual Albania. Yeah, I mean, we learned now that we are non-essential theaters are closed and in a way they always are like, you know, perhaps in a way fashion with something unique and something that's, you know, a luxury or something in between, but it makes life what is life. We feel alive, we understand the good and the bad, the beauty and the horror and we can see it. And so it is truly hard to hear these stories. So Beubose are great workers and to work in the places where you are. What, why do you guys do theater in these complex circumstances where you are involved in? What does theater mean for you and the cities and communities you live in, Janina, maybe? Yeah, I just wanted to add something to what you said that I also was invited in this theater four years ago for a stage reading. And it is true that this, while I stay there for a few days the whole, I don't know, audience community of artists, everybody was, I don't know, in this kind of very nice dynamic. So it really is a big, big loss. And I think also the international community of artists tried to support. I remember that this struggle last, big last some time and I also sent a statement to when they were occupying the space there. But this situation shows something that, I don't know, it's happening a bit all over the world, the profit and other, other priorities. Unfortunately, they managed to, I don't know, crash down things that are important for the community and also they represent something, I don't know, for many, many generations, I would say. So yeah, about what, why we are doing theater. I think we all, I think every theater artist is doing this theater because of this live experience. And I think that is in danger now and it's impossible to do. But then as Yeton said before, I realized that actually, yes, in the East, in most of the countries we had crisis after crisis after crisis and somehow we always survive and somehow we always, we are very adaptable, I would say. And I think this, in a way, it's good because after the initial shock, you start to say, okay. And now with these restrictions, what can we do? And I know that in Romania, the economical situation will have a big impact on the state institutions as well. So the thing is that when you have a lot of money it's easy to be creative. When you don't, you have to find ways. But I think, yeah, I think it will be very, very challenging to be a theater, to be in performing arts everywhere in the world. But yeah, I think we are trying not to lose hope and to try all the, I don't know, all the possibilities to stay in contact with the community. The theater that I'm running in Pietra Nams is a theater in a town of probably 100,000 people. So it's a small city. And I'm a manager there since three years already. And what interested me was to bring new audience. It's not a university city. So basically a lot of people from high school, a lot of teenagers come to the theater. And we have a lot of programs where we involved these young people. We even invite them to be assistant director, assistant playwright to see how a performance it's done. They are very much involved. They were very much involved in live rehearsals. And we also were doing a lot of workshops in rural areas with children. So not only in the city, but also in, so we were trying to bring different audiences to the theater before the pandemic. And this, of course, now we had to stop this kind of audience development. But we are trying to move apart in online, even if I'm not a big fan of seeing shows online, I'm not, but workshops or other things we can try to do. And then little by little to find ways to, if they cannot come to theater, we have to find a way. So we go to meet them somehow in the open air. I don't know, in site-specific projects, we will, we are responsible to find a way. But again, it's very interesting because it is a small community. It's probably for theaters in bigger cities would be a bit more difficult, I think, because a small community unites around the theater. And they, in this town, they come a lot to see the shows. So we perform, I don't know, sometimes even six shows per week. So they are used to be very close to this theater. I don't know if I answered the question. No, no, no, yeah. Why I'm in theater in general, it's a bit difficult to resume in the same few words. But still, if you say, why do you believe in theater? And because you, perhaps closer to, but also Romania had the revolution, of course, there was the civil war, there was Sarajevo, the Kosovo uprising. It's complex things that happen where Corona might not look as the most threatening thing. But so why do you believe in creating theater? Well, I think what is very special about theater it's this meeting with the audience, but not only during the performance. Since 10 years after the opening nights, but not only we are doing a lot of discussion artist talks and I think this meeting in a very safe place allows people with very different opinions to express themselves. And this you cannot see in television or in other forms of expression, let's say, in other arts. And I never experienced in the artist talk, artist talks that I've seen or done aggression, violence, the violence that you see in online in social media. Because the moment you are face-to-face to somebody, the moment you meet, you really meet the person, a dialogue can start, even if you do not agree, even if you have very different opinions, the theater has this ability to offer this frame where a dialogue can't exist. And I think that's one of the reasons I believe a theater can create a community. Like really in a very concrete way, not like, I don't know, not in an abstract, not speaking in abstract terms, but really like, and I've seen discussions like this with people having very different opinions about theater, about politics, but still being able to communicate. So for me it's important. And looking at this very polarized world, I think we will miss this kind of direct dialogue. But we were reinvented somehow. Sorry, I don't... No, no, no problem. No, I mean, that's more or less what I also wanted to say. And I would like to connect this question to a little, now I tell it as an anecdote, but it happened in reality a couple of years ago, in 2017, I think, we were just a day before the premiere of a play called Bordel Balkan, when a group of war veterans entered the National Theater and they wanted us to stop the play because it hurts the national feelings and it's anti-liberation war and so on and so forth. So all those war cliches, so to say. And I remember how it was maybe naive, but I was really fighting. I mean, in the sense that I was saying, no, you cannot stop it. It won't be possible. And those were not just ordinary citizens, but war veterans or powerful people. And one of them was saying, look, we just stopped a session of the parliament a couple of days ago. So stopping a theater play, it will be just an easy thing. And my answer was, no, you can easily stop an assembly session, but you won't be able to stop a theater play. And they were like looking at me surprisingly, like, is he normal? What is, you know? And so, I mean, I was threatened to death and so on and so forth, but to make this story short, I was after thinking, what made me stay like that and what made me believe that they won't be able to stop a theater play? I think it's the idea of freedom. I think for me, theater makes sense because of this bone that has the freedom. So we want to have freedom on stage and we aspire this freedom on stage because we want to have freedom in society. So free stages, some sort of testimony of a free society. So I was not fighting for a theater play that day, but it was fighting for my own freedom. And it is interesting because next day, you know, the audience came, of course, there was lots of police inside and around the theater, but people came as an act of support. I mean, it was a resisting act, so to say. So for them, to me, it was not just coming to see a theater play. So it was some sort of ritual of fighting for freedom because I believe they knew that if somebody will stop a theater play, today, next day, they will come to stop something else. They will take another part of our freedom. So I mean, this is for me fascinating and this is what I always wanted to somehow be able to do, meaning that, you know, a free stage where I'm able to work freely because for me, a free work on stage means a free society. And I think that's for me what I could answer to the question. So we believe in theater because we believe in our freedom. We want theater to be free because we want our society to be free. I mean, a blackmailed theater, a captured theater is a sign that the society is captured, is blackmailed by the politician, by the povers and so on. Do you both feel, and this is very significant but what you both said, what that theater means, do you feel that corona time is changing how you think about theater? Personally, no, because I'm still fighting to see all this period as a dream. So to say I'm not trying to wake up and to realize that it is happening and it is continuing. So I'm still hoping that it will be finished soon. So we go back to the normality, so to say to the times where we can do theater on stage. So I still don't want to believe and I don't want to accept the fact that we might have to adapt. That's my, maybe I'm still dreaming but I'm still continuing where my thoughts are left and trying to connect them to the future. So I believe I see this, I will see this as a gap in between. Just as when you wake up from a dream, you know. Well, I don't think it's in a very, how do you say, radical way it will change my idea about theater and I don't know the reasons for which I decided to do theater. But I think our work as artists will be and I've said that before even in the first month of lockdown our work will be shaped by this situation and it's inevitable in a way. And then as an artist, I'm not very, I don't know, interested to explore, let's say this kind of theater done by Zoom, whatever. I'm not very interested in that. But I'm also manager of an institution and somebody who has to invite artists and to think about the audience of this theater. And then as I said, we really have to survive and to survive not alone but together with this community, with this audience. And in this sense, we have to explore and to find ways to be together even in this situation of social distancing and I don't know, sometimes impossibility to meet the audience. So I don't know, I think we are still in the process and I don't think we have all answers. I think we are still trying to find our ways and to figure out how we will matter, if we will matter as artists in this zone. I hope we will and I hope we will find a way to be together with our audience. Will your countries change for the better or just think it's a moment where autocrats will grab and take more liberties away instead of opening? I mean, in my opinion, this pandemic created some sort of mirroring where you can clearly see in terms of politics, you could clearly see who is really trying to help or to do something worthy for the society and who is really cheating and who are those who want to benefit. So at least in that sense, I believe that people will kind of understand and hoping that in the new elections they will make better choices. So, but it's hard to predict how the society will be shaped from this pandemic. Now, in the beginning, when you started to mention countries that are allowed to enter European Union, I believe Kosovo was not in the list. Though, as you know, or maybe you don't know, but Kosovo's are still the only Europeans that cannot travel without visa into Europe. So this is permanent struggle that we, when it comes to pandemic, this seems as a, it's not a minor struggle, but it seems comparing to the other struggles that we were going through all those years since 90s. But I mean, we'll see, but the fact is that in the middle of local politics, you see also lots of clashes between European, different European states and USA. I mean, the struggle for control, for power, for showing who is in charge. Now, you know, there is this Kosovo case and the cost of a dialogue, political dialogue with Serbia that they say it should end with a peace agreement. But this has been going for like nearly 15 years now and the results are still nowhere. And in kind of comparing to other issues around pandemic, this, you know, it seems as a major, major issue. Yeah, there's still no, no major agreement, right? There has not been. No, no. This has been absorbing the energy of this country and not of this country only, but of Serbia as well, because the main focus since 20 years now was in this, you know, internal fights in around the border, in around the resources, in around the, you know, war, in around the war crimes and so on and so on. So we are kind of tight in this story that the pandemic is, of course, it's not good thing, but it's just another level of... It's another level and the whole meldstrom of things. It's an additional that I can only imagine. What it means, Janina, do you think Romania will change for the better? Things that are exposed, will there be, will new forms be found that work better? Well, I think that you have now, like you started today with this, how do you say, this image? Like it sounds, I don't know, like in a science fiction movie. And I think in every country, you can see this model replicated in different degrees, of course. And I think, as I already said, there are so many interconnections in the whole world because now I'm thinking that to this global crisis, a global answer is needed because we have so many problems with the, I don't know, global warming. They were all waiting there and we were like not looking, but now we are faced and it's all of us. And I think the global answer will, I don't know, will be the good one or the bad one. Now we have on the table all the possibilities. I think Romania could go worse, like also Hungary and Poland and so on. I don't think you can be alone good in this, I mean, to do better in this world. So I think the international politics will have a huge impact, especially on countries like Romania, who are parts of different agreements and so on. So I'm hoping for the best for USA, for EU, for everybody, because yes, we will, it will impact everybody, Kosovo as well. It will have a, I cannot think of, I don't know, of Romania only as a, but of course, there are so many, so many things, like I've already spoke about, about our export of cheap labor on the Western market, let's say. And I think here the Romanian government has, how do you say, they do have a responsibility that they didn't take it up till now. And this is the moment to do it. We are waiting. So this could be a good change, this could change, but not only for Romania, but other countries in the East. And the situation of, I don't know, all of us, we are in precarious situations all over the world, not only workers in cheap labor, but artists like we see now with freelance artists and so on. So in the sense, things, if things would change for the better, would be to give some, I don't know, to give these people a perspective for their future, because now everybody's thinking from one day to another day. And it's not only in Romania, and it's not only starting with this pandemic. For years, for at least 10, 15 years, we started to lose the rights that our parents had in all Europe. So we start to lose it little by little, without even noticing, from one day to another. So I think if it would change to the better, in this sense, it has to change. To be able to imagine a future. To be able to imagine it, and also realizing that the ability to imagine is maybe the dream itself. Who knows what will happen, but we all need to be able to imagine that to be part of it, and that we have a future, so we act responsibly. And I think perhaps, yeah, maybe it should be the United States of Europe in realizing that there are no longer national individual situations. This is a global thing. And as so many people do say, what is facing us in environmental threats, this coronavirus might be kindergarten experience, of what might really happen when it comes to water resources, when it comes to temperatures rising, when it comes to malaria flies surviving in Europe, all of a sudden, because the temperature changes. So it's so many things we do not know about. It's a time of great uncertainties. We are in our rooms, we look outside and we are wondering, at least the Western world, Western Europe and America and North America, they have not been in that state of uncertainty. It's something new. Our colleagues from the Palestine or from Libya or as you say in Kosovo and in a way also Romania, there has been upheavals, but it has perhaps never been as strong for the Western world. And our colleagues in Africa say, you know, 400,000 people die of malaria each year. So the same amount of people died of COVID, but nobody cares. We don't even have money for vaccinations from measles. So now the Western world or the Western world is infected and everything stops. How can that be? This is such an injustice. And we will also have to find our own ways to come to a bit to a close and really thank you both for coming here and joining us. And I think each one of you could have had their own session, but I think also you really compliment each other so very, very well. What do you say to young artists, maybe to yourself when you started out, what do you say to artists? How should they use this time of Corona? What should they look forward to or imagine and maybe also to our audiences? How should we deal with this time of Corona? Okay, Janina, maybe on that. Well, I mean, I have no idea. Well, yeah, so. Jaten, go ahead. Go on. No, I mean, I'm looking at myself that I was not able to be that creative as I wished. So I was hoping to write and I started and I stopped and I started and I stopped. I would say that, you know, they should realize that, you know, that this situation might continue and then they should catch the rhythm. I don't know if I was able to catch the rhythm myself, but at least I was able to convince myself that, yeah, this could be the normality. I mean, what was the normality before might come maybe later from September, October, but let's now accommodate ourselves into this new reality and believe that this is, you know, what we have and try to do the work you are supposed to do as an artist. So if in case of play of rights, I would, you know, ask them to write and I think for some of them, I know who was saying that this is like a honeymoon for some people because for a writer is a miracle to be able to stay home and, you know, be around without any other obligations. I don't know if it's completely true that because for me, the idea that I was not able to go outside then was complicated because normally I was, you know, for a long time longing for this period of being home and without having to go to my office, but yeah, some people might want to use this situation. I mean, some writers I would say. For directors for, let's say, Blerta was having and it's still having difficult period because she's used to do things on stage. I mean, she's not able to adapt really to this new rhythm and I suppose this is similar for many, many other theater theater makers. Okay. Well, I think, I mean, I don't like to give advices to younger artists as I didn't like advices when I was younger, but there is something that I could notice myself. I didn't feel very creative as well when we stopped the rehearsals. I was hoping to write and I didn't manage. Even today, I didn't. I did the visual essay, but the play is not written. But I'm very happy about that because at some point I stopped putting pressure on myself and because the reality was much more interesting for me. And I think years and years I was used to work under pressure even if I work one performer performance or maybe two every year because I do a lot of research before and a lot of improvisation. So I spend a lot of time even in discussions with the actors. So my process is longer than the classic one with readings and then staging. So I was never, I don't know. I never worked a lot in this sense of many shows. But now I really feel that we need to accumulate experience and we need to look to this reality because it's so interesting. And I'm not saying only about the big things that we can see. I also speak about, I don't know, more subtle things. And I think as an artist you really need to observe these things and to take your time. And then in the last years, the rules of the market, of the art market were putting a lot of pressure on many, many artists. And it's time to just reflect and not be so productive no matter what. I think that would be my advice to exit this logic of productivity and competitivity and so on. I think just, I don't know, look around. It's important. We were spending so much time inside the theaters and just doing and producing more content and sometimes just for the sake of content. Now just look around. Yeah, that's significant, at least to stop, look around, slow down to adapt to the situation. And Jethon said and to really be in the moment. And I think if we want to change also our realities, we also will have to change authentically. And we will see where this all goes. We are too close to the time we live in. We really are blind. We can see it. But I think artists that always, you know, have insights that we, that we should rely on it. I think the idea to really say, this is now global solutions are needed and it's no longer about national strongmans. And so really what is so much that's wrong also in the US. It's also just a very big, big island and it's realizing that at the moment. And it's no longer at the forefront of, of finding forms and ideas to inspire visions, to inspire imagination. And I bet all one feels the things have come down and they're less and less liberties and they're, they're very fine. We of course, we have the killings that George Floyd and others, the social unrest on the city. And we don't know what this summer will bring. And we think signs are not good, but hopefully I think elections will also reevaluate priorities. And then thank you again, also for you guys to know Romania kind of featured in, in significantly in, in New York theater. I think there was a production of the Met Forest by Carol Churchill, which was directed by Ashley Kelly. And it was also interrupted. And then with a coder, they were able to get the Zoom software design permission to manipulate it. So they created a performance that was reviewed by the New York times. And it's one of the first things also I saw, because I share with you. It's hard to just see recordings and nothing, but it's really a work of art she created. And maybe this is something for actually to connect with you, maybe create a version for, for also for Romania, where she really in a stunning way combined aesthetics of early computer games, graphic novels, state propaganda TV, and then scenes out of that truly extraordinary play. And again, thank you both, you know, for all your work. And you're such great artists, significant artists in your own way. Also, remember Janina, your readings of the plays in New York, and the work you did, Yiton, you know, who went around small towns, also in Kosovo, was a play that had as gay, lesbian themes unheard of, where it's really you put your life and your buddies at risk. You promote change. And you also take that very, very serious. And conditions are so very different for both of you than for us here in the U.S. or Western Europe. So it's good to hear from you. And we think about you, your work is significant and important. And please do keep on doing and find forms and find ways. And let's all stay in contact. And one day I'm sure we will see each other again live. So really thank you for the update from Kosovo, from Romania, and we touched on that theater in Albania, which is a scandal. And it is so wrong to do this without a real plan and result really respectfully negotiating. And but it is a sign of the time and maybe also at least these days come to an end and something new emerges. It will be good. The great Antonio Gramsci, the Italian philosopher said when the old days are gone and the new ones haven't arrived yet, monsters appear. And in this chiaroscuro, there's kind of in between dark. I think it's a time we live through now, spider women and Native American company, women said, you know, we are experiencing a creational myth. We have a mad king. We are there's the plague in the country. Things don't work every example, but we have enough to find our way to, to resurrect it. It's all about us. It's also about the listeners who are listening to us, what you can do. And the same work you guys do with your communities and your own very own communities and your own artistic work. So thank you for listening. It is important that our friends from Eastern Europe do know that we do care about them, but we don't not just import our garbage and look there for cheap labor. These are significant places. It was a great history. It was great, great artistic contribution that countries have made to the arts and to the world in itself. And so it's important to have good work, good place, but also good audiences. Thank you for listening. Thanks for hall round for hosting us out of Emerson College, the B.J. and Travis and my Segal team, Andy, and Sanyan. Tomorrow we have also a significant guest from France, it's Frédéric Eid Duati. And she will talk about her work with Bruno Latour, a significant thinker, philosopher, very much on the environmental conscious and our ecological thinking and on Brecht and the continuing of thinking. And so they're experimenting things also with the Berlin Festspieler with Thomas Oberhander. And we will get some insights of how she thinks the days we live in could contribute to new thinking, new forms towards theater and performance. On Thursday we have Iman Aoun from Palestine from our great Ashtar Theater. And she also producing work in very difficult circumstances already, politically, socially, artistically. And now there is this corona crisis, as you also pointed out next to the Civil War and everything you experienced at the revolutions. So this COVID is creating an additional complication. And Friday we hear from Jamaica, English-speaking Caribbean, Sakina Dia and Yvonne Walter who will tell us what does it mean to be a theater artist in Jamaica now in general, but also in a time of COVID. So thank you all for listening. Do stay safe, wear a mask, stay tuned in, and I hope to see you again. And both of you really, thank you for taking the time and energy and taking the conversation. So serious. Thank you Janina to share us. So really we think of you and your work is of real, real significance and as part of a global effort by the theater community and performing arts community to make the world a better place. Thank you very much.