 Excellent, so welcome everybody and thank you all for coming to this rather experimental workshop that Catherine and I are doing on applying the capability approach to open educational practice to our practice actually. If anyone wants to follow the slides in Google slides, there's a tiny URL below and it's also got links out in the final slide, but we'll show you that tiny URL again Catherine might put it in the in the chat box. So the purpose of Catherine has to move because there's a fire alarm in her hotel. Okay. Well, while Catherine's doing that hopefully it's just a drill and not an actual fire. I'll explain the purpose of the session, which is to think about our own practice as open educators and to use the capability approach as a theoretical framework for doing so. So it's kind of self reflection, but also learning and developing a shared language for talking about it in this particular way. So the first question is to ask those of you who are able to type in the chat. If you've ever used the capability approach before or if you've come across it for any reason. Can you just add something in the chat if you've never used it before put that in as well because we just would like to know what the starting point is for most of you. And if you're on your phone on the bus and you can't type in the chat, but you're able to speak. Please feel free to grab the mic if you can. There's a couple of comments saying people have not heard of it or used it before but are interested and eager even to hear more about it. Leo says everything he knows about it. He's learned from my blog. Oh, goodness. Okay. Antonio heard of it and intuitively adopted without knowing much about it. Oh, how interesting. You might find that applies to more than just Antonio because it's been around in many different forms for quite some time. And particularly in the form of human development, which we'll mention briefly. I think if Catherine is Catherine. Okay. Hopefully when Catherine comes back, she will announce herself. Otherwise, I'll just continue without her. So, yes, and Leo mentions that Helen Beatham drew on the capabilities approach in her just digital capabilities framework, which some people may be familiar with. Tiramani says you use this actively because of your work around equity because opportunities very excellent Tiramani. We will be looking for some input from you as we work through this workshop. So in a nutshell, the capability approach is a conceptual framework. And it focuses on the extent to which individuals experience well being or have opportunities to experience well being. Plus the ways in which social arrangements institutions and policies in a society influence the well being of individuals in that society. So you'll see there is quite a strong focus on the individual, which seems at first to be a little contradictory because it's called a normative approach. But actually you'll see at the end when you start comparing the capabilities that different individuals have in a particular social or political setting. You can start to see what needs to change, whether it's structural or social or cultural etc. Thank you for those further comments in the text chat. I see Antonio and Leo definitely overlaps with critical pedagogy the way it's been applied in higher education. So the foundations of the capability approach go back to Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum who were writing in the 1990s about Amartya Sen initially as an economist and then Nussbaum coming in with a background in law and philosophy. And Sen was challenging the notion that in order to achieve equality in society, everybody just needed equal access to resources. And I think this was kind of the equity debate, but it wasn't initially phrased so much in equity terms, it is much more so now. And I see Catherine Cronin number two is back. Well done Catherine. I'm hoping your fire alarm is over and there was no drama attached. So that was Amartya Sen. He was challenging the concept of resources being the be all and end all of equality. And he said people need more than resources. They need opportunities, real opportunities. He called those capabilities to use those resources in a meaningful way that added value. Within their own view of the world. So Martha Nussbaum took those ideas, worked with them further, as I said from the point of view of philosophy. You may never have heard his name, but he was very influential in the development of the UN's human development indicators and the whole concept of human development, which is at the core of the United Nations, all the work they do on welfare. So that's why I think many of you may have actually come across the capability approach without necessarily knowing it. Others who have been influential are Ingrid Roe Bains, who wrote a fantastic CC Open book on it in 2017, link at the end of the slides. Melanie Walker is the main person in higher education and many, many others. Too many to mention here. But if Catherine's back, I will pass on to Catherine. Yes, apologies everyone. Oh, the drama. Apparently there's a faulty fire alarm. So if it goes off again, I'll just turn off my mic and Gabby will seamlessly pick up as she's already done. Thanks, Gabby. Gabby's already given an introduction. Yes, Leo, there's always drama. An introduction into the capability approach and the point is that it considers each person as an end, as Gabby has probably already said, and not looking at total or average well-being, but opportunities available to each person. So we're going to have an opportunity each person here in the workshop to build a map yourself, but we just wanted to introduce the key concepts that will be developing throughout the workshop. And obviously these include capabilities, but also functionings and conversion factors. So capabilities are what Sen calls substantial freedoms. So if a person has the freedom to choose what they are able to do and to be. So these might include things like to have good health to have adequate shelter to have bodily integrity as Martha Nussbaum identifies, which includes being able to move freely, you know, from place to place. Functioning are the realizations of one or more of these capabilities in an individual's life. And these functions can be, you know, low level or elementary or valued. And we will use the term valued functionings. This is from Sen's terminology, which relates specifically to those functionings that are about well-being. And finally, there are a concept called conversion factors, some which may enable you to convert resources into capabilities, and some which may constrain you from doing so. So that's a lot of terminology, but we're actually going to step through it one by one and you're actually going to build a map, which hopefully facilitate you getting to grips with some of the complexity of a capability approach, but also think about how to apply it with respect to open. Okay, so if you are in a position to do so, and you want to join along with us and create your own capability map, then just grab a piece of paper and some writing tools, ideally at least an A4 size sheet of paper, or bigger if you can, and you'll see why as we go through it. So back to Catherine to introduce the aspirations. Okay, so we're going to step through in four different steps of kind of building your map. And the first is the key one, and because that's we're going to ask you to identify an aspiration that you have as an open educational practitioner. And aspiration might be the terminology that we would use when we talk about this, but in the terminology of capability approach, this would be called a valued functioning so it relates to well being. So we're just going to ask you now and we can we can use the chat we can use the voice as you kind of think about what your aspiration might be for this exercise. But please think of an aspiration or goal that you have that will be challenging to achieve in relation to open education. And when you're thinking of that also think about who's well being it will enhance. It could be yours, it could be someone else's. And because this is the first piece of your map that we're asking you to add. We've created a Google Doc, you don't have to use it, you can use the doc, you can use the chat, but we just thought it might be useful for us to share our aspirations with one another if you want to. So that you can really feel happy that you've identified a useful aspiration. And then you can write that one in the bottom of your paper and we'll build our maps. But as with every step of the process here Gabby's going to show an example. So she can so you can get an idea of the kind of thing we're talking about. So Gabby do you want to show you know what your aspiration is and this also in the Google Doc. Okay, and I'm seeing quite a few people already in the Google Doc, which is wonderful. So I put mine at the top in that table at the Google Doc. My aspiration is to develop and share my PhD thesis as an open thesis. So primarily here I'm talking about the open aspects of sharing my thesis as I go along. My thesis is on investing student engagement in the case of forced migrants in online higher education. So in terms of whose well being I hope it will enhance. I hope it will enhance people who are refugees asylum seekers other kinds of forced migrants who want to learn online and probably learners from other underrepresented minority groups. And it will help them indirectly by contributing to our and when I say our I mean in the higher education sector collective understanding of the lived experience of such learners. I will keep quiet for a little bit now because I see lots of stuff happening in that doc. And I think everyone has the ability to click on their mic if they want to ask a question or make a comment. A nice small group here and we can, you know, we can really build dialogue in as we go. So no shortage of aspirations here and ambitious aspirations, I must say. So for anybody who's not able to check the Google doc because perhaps you're on the bus on your phone or something. Or you're watching the recording of this some examples we've got of aspirations are persuade teaching colleagues to publish OER connect educators through virtual exchange to enable them to co design virtual exchange programs. Complete and share the results of my PhD research into institutional policy. That's quite a long one so I'll stop there but great that someone else is linking it to their PhD. Reflect and improve on practice. I think that could apply to all of us. I'm hoping that's why we're all here today. Raise awareness of OER in my institution. Yep. Contribute to a culture of student creation of OER. Wonderful. And then all the associated individuals and groups who are benefiting. I'll move on to the next slide. I know most people have shifted into a different type in their browser probably by now. But if you want to see the next slide, you'll see how I've positioned my aspiration and the rationale for whose well being it will enhance right at the very bottom of my sheet of paper. Now really this should be done in a portrait format, not a landscape format. We're a bit constrained by the format of the slide presentation. So if you can use your sheet of paper and just transfer your aspiration and well being, just use bullet points. You don't have to write that in full. So the bottom of your piece of paper in a box or a cloud or a bubble or whatever works best for you. And we're going to work upwards from there. So do you think we're ready to move on Catherine? Does anyone want to ask anything? Yeah, if anybody wants to ask a question in the chat or on the mic, comment. And if not, we can just go ahead. But we just want to be clear that we're open at any point to pause to explore things further. I see Karina has put her hand up. So Karina, do you have the power to grab the mic? Nice to hear your voice. Nice to be here. Can you hear me well? Yes. I'm sorry, I arrived a few minutes late. So it could be that you have covered this already. But what if my aspiration is more practical and not necessarily related to enhanced well being of the learners, for example? Okay, that's fine. It might be enhancing your own well being by making your life simpler, saving you time or making things smoother between you and your colleagues. It doesn't have to be a huge world changing enhancement goal. Right, yeah. And I guess by working on my aspirations that really has a fulfilling effect anyway. Professionally. Yes, and once you've achieved that aspiration, it's a constant upward chain of aiming for new aspirations. So it should prepare the groundwork for further valued functionings as we call them in the capability approach. So this might just be a milestone. Wonderful. I'm glad you asked that, Karina, because there is a whole set of terminology in the capability approach and valued functioning is one of them. It's the realization of capabilities, but by a valued functioning means it relates specifically to well being, as I said, either for you or someone else. And it's good that it doesn't have, even though it feels like what's your aspiration. So it doesn't have to be. It can be my individual, small one that's slowly one builds on the other that doesn't have to be anything to change the world to begin with. No, because lots of small aspirations combined can change the world. I mean, as Catherine points out, the valued functioning means it must be something important to you. So something that you see as meaningful. Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Great. Okay. Let's see. So I think people, one or two people are still writing in the dock, but I'm assuming that by now most people have gone on to writing on their own chart by hand. So shall I move on to the next slide? Back to you, Catherine. Yeah, and obviously people can tell us to slow down or pause if we want to. So we're going through four distinct steps and kind of building our maps today. And the second one is, you know, once you've identified this value functioning, this aspiration that you'd like to achieve, except it's thinking about what resources do you need in order to achieve this. And, you know, it doesn't have to be an exhaustive list of resources and usually this is not difficult for any of us because we can identify the resources that we have or the resources that we want to have. So what are the resources that you believe you need in order to achieve that aspiration? They could be things like having time, having permission, having access to something, a tool. So it can be a whole range of things, but just brainstorm and think about what resources you need to achieve the information you identified. And again, Gabby, I'll just share an example. Right. Okay. So in my case, the only resources I've put there, but I am sure I need others as well. But really the most essential resources for me to do an open thesis are my social networks, because otherwise it's not open at all. I need the networks. I need the platforms. And then I need all the tech setup, the Wi-Fi, you know, laptop devices. And beyond that, I need resources to do the PhD itself. I need access to libraries. I need access to databases, journal articles. I need time probably is the most fundamental one. So we're just asking you to add this to your own map that you're drawing. And I'm seeing some interesting comments in the chat there about how the process break things down and Antonio finding this therapeutic. Does anyone want to ask anything at this stage or say anything else? Or shall we move on to the next stage? The really interesting stage is coming next. We didn't think anything badly of you at all, Antonio or anything like that. So we are perhaps used to thinking in terms of, you know, if I want to do X, then I need to have Y, right? And so in other words, in terms of thinking of resources that we need. But thinking about abilities is a different type of thing. So in order to achieve your aspiration, what do you need to be able to do or to be to achieve inspiration? This is the notion of capabilities. So capabilities could be things like opportunities. You know what you're able to do or be or also, you know, more just things like skills and capacities that can be fostered under particular circumstances. So again, feel free to ask questions in the chat or, you know, look back at, you know, what you wrote for your aspiration. But thinking at root, what do you need to be able to do or what do you need to be able to be in order to achieve your aspiration? And Gabby's going to share her example just to maybe help you along. Okay. Thanks, Catherine. So the thing about capabilities is it's often defined in different ways by different people. And that makes the reading very confusing sometimes. So initially, oh, that's Catherine's fire alarm going off again. Oh, dear. Initially, a mattress and defined capabilities as specifically opportunities and freedoms to do things. And then Martha Nussbaum took that idea and completely agreed with that, but said we need to define those opportunities and freedoms in a list she made a list of 10. Core, core capabilities, which you can find on Wikipedia, it's fascinating if you want to capability approach Wikipedia, and you look for that list of 10. And those are like the essential, what she called fundamental entitlements of all human beings. Melanie Walker, who took this into higher education and many, many other authors since then, expanded the notion of capabilities to also include the more commonly associated way of thinking of capabilities as skills and capacities that can be fostered. So it's quite useful when you talk about the capabilities that you have or that you need to specify, whether you're talking about them in terms of opportunities or skills and capacities. And sometimes, as I think is going to you're going to see in my case, it's a bit hard to separate them. So when you put your capabilities on your flow chart, it's going to become a flow chart flowing upwards. Leave a gap, please, between resources and capabilities. And we're going to add some an essential element there in the next slide. But for me, the capabilities that I need to do an open thesis are the opportunity and the freedom to disseminate my processes, my reflections and my findings as I go along. And the opportunity to interact with my intended audience. I also need a whole bunch of skills and sort of personal capacities, cognitive capacities, I need to be able to read loads and loads of stuff, understand it. Make sense of it, you know, remix it in such a way in my writing that it makes sense to others and that it generates new knowledge. So I haven't put those in there because it would just have been too much text on my model map. I'm seeing Leo put in the chat box. This point about opportunities is really useful. Thanks, Leo. Yeah, it is. I still get confused. I've been reading this stuff for more than a year as you'll see from my blog and developing and changing my understanding of it all the time. But really it is helpful to understand that initial sort of basic foundation of capabilities as its opportunities and freedoms almost in the sense of human rights but going one step beyond human rights. I think Martha Nussbaum talks about fundamental entitlements because we often have human rights that can't actually be acted on. So in many countries it's a right for all children to go to school, but their families need the girls to stay home and look after their younger siblings, for example. So they have the right to be educated but they don't have the capability to be educated. That's the essential point there. I think I'll stop teaching. Kathy, it sounds like opportunities has a lot. Yeah, do you want to take over the Catherine? Is your fire alarm drama? Yes, I think so for the moment. Yes, indeed, Kathy. And it does have a lot to do with processes and relationships and Martha Nussbaum and others make the really valuable points that we can't really convert capabilities into functionings unless the context permits that. And that's everything, the social context, personal context, institutional context and so on. And I know I had to flee when we were doing introductions, but perhaps this is a good place to mention that this is in my blog post related to this workshop. This is the reason why I advocated using the notion of abilities in our work on open education at the National Forum in Ireland. So we were using the UNESCO recommendations, OER, which talk about building capacities, but depth of really understanding well-being and the focus on the individual is included in the capability approach or the capabilities approach. So we kind of extended that UNESCO recommendation and talked about developing open capabilities in the higher education sector. So I suppose that's my example. That's really interesting. This discussion about the relationships because that, for me, that's all my capabilities are about. And in the work I'm doing with refugees as online learners, their social engagement is only one of four types of engagement. I'm looking at, I'm also looking at cognitive behavioral and emotional engagement, but the social engagement does turn out to be pretty fundamental as well. So hopefully everyone's had a chance now to think of a couple of capabilities that you need to achieve your aspiration. It doesn't have to be a full comprehensive list, just a couple. We'll move on, Catherine. And this is, you may be pleased or dismayed to know that this is the last step of building the maps and then we'll really talk about how the different pieces relate to one another. But step four is thinking about, in English, we would say enablers and constraints and in the language of the capability approach, we talk about positive conversion factors and negative conversion factors. And the reason they're called that is because they're the factors that either enable you to convert your resources into capabilities or constrain you from converting your resources into capabilities. So on our map, we're calling them enablers and constraints, but we have the full, the full terminal be there. And again, I think, as with all of the useful to see an example so Gabby's going to show her map again. Okay, now this is for me, this is kind of the heart of where the capability approach becomes helpful, kind of practically useful. And you'll find in a lot of the literature that's used capabilities and higher education. They focus in on conversion factors. So we've just called them enablers and constraints here for ease of, you know, ease of terminology. But as if you think of them as the factors as Catherine said that convert your resources into the capabilities or the opportunities that you need to achieve your valued functioning your aspiration. This is where things either go and things go one way or the other, depending on whether the enablers can sort of out win over the constraints or if you've got overwhelming constraints. And then you might find that no matter how many enablers you've got, you just, you don't really stand a chance of achieving that valued functioning. Now there is the, there is another element that I'm going to show you in the next slide so it doesn't just boil down to these. It's very simple, if it did, but it's not that simple, simple. Anyway, I'll explain the enablers in my case are so they're divided into environmental, social and personal. These terms come from Sen and have been reused throughout the literature and I think they're fairly self explanatory. The example that Sen gave and has been used over and over again in the literature is a bicycle. A bicycle is a wonderful resource. And you might have a bicycle and want to use your bicycle to go to work. So your valued functioning is go to work and you've got a job and you've got a bicycle. So in theory, you should be able to go to work on your bicycle. And, but then your conversion factors are going to influence whether you can actually do that. So environmentally, you need good roads, you need a good infrastructure where you know you can actually physically ride a bike safely. I'll skip to personal next, you need the ability, you know, the skill to ride a bike without falling off it, unlike me. That's an on starter for me, sadly. But socially the social one becomes really important here because in some societies it's a taboo for women to ride bikes. So you've got the bike, you've got the job, you've got good roads, you know how to ride a bike because you learned when you're a little kid. But you don't have the capability to go to work on your bike because you're a woman and your society doesn't allow women to ride bikes. So that's kind of the sort of archetypal example that's always given. So in my case, environmentally, I could say that's always about infrastructure and sort of wider context and so on. So in my case, an enabler is I have access to online tools and spaces for creating and sharing my work. So socially, I have wonderful social networks, I'm right in the middle of one of them right now, so in my element. And personally, I have a lot of enthusiasm for doing open access research and that kind of drives me along. The constraints, on the other hand, can sometimes be daunting. Institutional rules about what a PhD thesis should be prevented me, for example, from doing a huge collaborative thesis, you know, getting massive participation from every refugee and asylum seeker I could find. You know, and writing it as a big Google Doc, because it has to be authored by me, okay. And perhaps I was a bit conservative and I didn't push the boundaries there I could have kind of wish I had now but anyway, it's too late for that now. Again, I'll jump to personal next because for me, a huge constraint personally is my limited time because I work part time and I do other things. But the interesting one for me again is social that it's a constraint, but it's a really important constraint. I would love to just do everything absolutely openly to be, you know, having my interviews online with the people I'm speaking to live on YouTube like we're doing this today kind of thing. But for very, very obvious ethical reasons, that's just not not feasible and not wise. So I'm constantly having to make small judgments and I think this goes back to that paper that you wrote Catherine about how we as open education practitioners are constantly making small decisions from the micro right through to the MISO and the macro. You know, should I share this? What should I share? How should I share it? Who should I share it with etc. And that becomes quite an important part of the process. So it feels like a constraint, but actually it's kind of part of the overall aim as well, if that makes any sense. I'll stop there Catherine. Yeah, I'll add a small thing that was beautiful description Gabby and really want to open the mic and the chat to everyone who's thinking through this but you know so many of us engaged in critical and social justice approaches to open education. You know, and in in talking, you know, pointing people to, to look at the structures, you know, look at the structural impediments don't just look at individuals. And I think a really powerful aspect of the capability approach is that it's very holistic. So you look at all the enablers as Gatti has shown from the very personal to the cultural and to the structural and likewise look at the constraints in that way as well. So freeze up a lot of the discussion and the different lens. Yeah, yeah. Actually, that's a good point Catherine. We haven't got the word structural on the diagram. And I was kind of looking for thinking, where is it that actually it's definitely environmental because it's what's in the infrastructure that has been set up through, you know, various political and social processes. It's in the social, it's even in the personal because, you know, that that's the whole equity thing again, where a person who has, let's say disability or something, therefore doesn't have the opportunity, the capability to do what they want to do. They are prevented by structural elements. So it's kind of running all the way through this. And I see we're getting some comments about border in the, in the chat. Some people have linked the capabilities work to to border Caroline's Jeannie heart. I think her name is wrote a book in 2012, which I'll share the link to a bit later on, if anyone's interested, where she used border as concepts of cultural capital and, you know, students coming to university lacking certain capitals. And it actually works very well together with the capability approach. So the capability approach has been critiqued by some people for being too individually focused and not giving enough of a sort of structural critique of society. And for that reason, some people have combined it with other approaches. But I'll move on just to sort of keep us moving through the map now and you'll see in the next version of the flowchart. We've added arrows. Catherine, I had a really interesting beginning of a conversation just before this session started with. Oh my God, I've got to revise the map. Catherine said as an engineer, she is she has issues with some of these arrows that only go one way. And as soon as she said that, I thought, yeah, because aspiration, I've got it leading up to resources. But actually, even in the original all the literature by a much a send and all the early writers, they were talking about how your aspirations can be severely constrained by the availability of resources or in, you know, or expanded depending on what resources you know are available. So they use a term for that which they call what's the term they use adaptive preference where people kind of adapt the vision of what they are able to do and what they want and what they like, according to what they think is doable. So yeah, the arrows are probably much too simplistic going in one direction. Anyway, be that as it may, I've added in personal agency, and I can I can imagine there's lots and lots to say about that. Perhaps just at this stage to say that Sen talked about two kinds of agency. He talked about agency freedom and agency achievement. So it's very similar to the concept of capabilities, the concept of freedom to do something. But do you actually achieve your agency by acting on it. So it's sort of subtle distinction, and we can go into that a bit more if anybody's interested. Open the mic, Gabby, because I'd love to hear. I know we only have about, you know, just under 10 minutes left. Really interested in people's thoughts or reactions or want to share anything about what's emerged in their own maps. Can I just check Catherine, what time are we actually ending? Is it 11 or is it 10 past 11? It's supposed to be an hour session. So if you want to go on to pass, free to. Okay. Thank you. I mean, we can certainly end a few minutes early, no one complains at that, but I definitely would love to hear. There's a great chat going on, but I know not everyone may have access to the chat. So anyone who wanted to jump in, by all means, please do so. Kathy is constrained by resources, so she'll look at the documents. We understand that. Antonio, anyone want to add anything here? It would also be interesting just to hear what you're seeing as your own enablers and constraints. If you want to show any of that. Yes, yes. Now I'm just thinking that sometimes when I think about my enablers and my constraints, I have to think, unfortunately, about a lot of people who have enables and constraints and they are working on them. And it's, it's not that I cannot talk to somebody with more power than me about my constraints and our enablers is that there are a lot of people doing the same with their own little agendas and objectives which are as legitimate as mine. So, yeah, one social constraint there is that we operate in a constant state of competition, you know, I compete with other colleagues, for instance. In attracting the student time to my module. I want them to do very well in my module in even if I, if I respect and love my colleagues eventually I'm drawing my students to my subject and getting them to work harder for mine and that's a detriment or constraint for others. Is this, you know, interrelationship that comes from, from that state of competition that we seem to be living inevitably. Okay, sorry to be so. No, no, that's really interesting because you know, Sen talks about capability sets and Ingrid Robanes gives a great explanation of how if you if you put your efforts into achieving one set of capabilities, you may, you may have to do that at the expense of another set of capabilities and I think the example she gives of someone who chooses whether to go to work or do further education or try and combine them and maybe have a family as well. You know, so you constantly having to weigh up as an individual. Now you're applying this concept to kind of collective decision making, where ideally, if you're working in a team, then you collectively decide on things like, I don't know, you're randomly thinking the assessment when, when which module is going to make the greatest demands on that same cohort of students, so they don't have all the same, all demands coming from all angles at the same time. Yeah. I've got personal agency on the map I nearly added in personal and collective agency because I love the idea of collective agency and there's quite a lot in the literature about that too. So perhaps that's where your comment belongs is in the concept of collective agency. Yeah. And how people can articulate that desires and their, and their aspirations in, in a situation where everybody's supposed to have aspirations and perceive them and this is where institutional norms come about that in a way they can be a constraint but they are also opportunity that they limit, you know, the way in which we compete for our goals. Exactly. They channel them in a way. Yeah. That's really interesting. Thanks for those comments also Leo and Liz about the process being helping you to reflect on your own experience liberating and productive. That's nice. So under Catherine shall we, oh, we're right at the end, but there's, yeah, maybe that. I do appreciate the feedback Gabby and I have been, we were, this is based on Gabby's PhD research, I want to be really clear and you know I have been reading about the capabilities approach not to the extent that Gabby has but we've had discussions all along because I've approached it more from a practice point of view about how I could use it in my practice and it's been really, really useful and I've learned a lot but you know Gabby is much more immersed in the literature and so value that. But in designing the workshop, you know, we made a decision early on that we would do it on paper that we wouldn't have people filling in boxes on the screen so I'm really glad to hear that there's been a positive response to that because if we do this again I think it's nice just to, as you said, Liz just listen to discussion and kind of, you know, draw away or right away or take your own notes, because it is deep thinking it is complex. We can't deny the complexity of the capability approach but it's really generative as well, in terms of what it enables in terms of looking at problem and developing kind of successive solutions to problems to improve well being. So yeah, I mean the link that we, yeah, is, is to all of the resources that we've been mentioning. Thank you Michelle, glad to hear. I'll add your link post. And that's, you know, I don't think there's any in a very, very full day I don't think there's any crime and finishing a few minutes early, because it's an awfully full day but I don't I also want to be sure that we answer people's questions or give you an opportunity to talk. Catherine that's completely fine if you're happy and you don't feel like anyone has any further questions we can end the recording in the session now. Or we can do more moments and we can, we can have further chat if people want to. Is that okay with you? Yes, of course. Okay. I'll just put the, that's the tiny URL back to the slides again in case you want the links direct from there. Karina's got her hand up. Karina. Thank you. Well, thanks for, for the, the, the presentation, the workshop has been really, really interesting. And I can see like others here is putting in the chat how this can be applied to my own work as, you know, helping others, helping other academics in professional, academic professional development to actually think about the aspirations and well being and how, you know, their work can affect the work of others and how my work can also help them to have this reflection. Because like I said, it's very, it's a very, very good framework to use and, you know, it's in, in small stages, so it doesn't overwhelm users and, and I found it very interesting. So thank you ladies for your work and presentation. Thank you for the feedback. I see some people are disappearing. Yeah, yeah, but anyone who wants to stay on for a bit. And we will, we will pop over to discord. Oh, yes. Kind of meandering, you know, as things occur to you conversations. I really enjoyed that in discord yesterday. So we will definitely do that today. And there's some wonderful sessions coming up next, including Lorna's. So we want to do that too. Great. Gabby. And the recording now. Yes.