 All right, we'll go ahead and get started. Hello and welcome everyone to the first of the discovering our ancestors and preserving historic gravesites webinar series, understanding site ownership and access to great sites. My name is Mary Fernandez and I am a program outreach coordinator for the National Trust for Historic Preservation. The National Trust has prioritized the preservation of historic cemeteries through several several initiatives and programs, including through grant making the hope crew and other forms of advocacy like our work at Chaco bottom and through America's 11 most and dangerous historic places, including all of wood cemetery in 2022 Morningstar Tabernacle Tabernacle number 88 Order of Moses Cemetery and Hall, the indigenous burial sites at Rossewick in Virginia, and at the West Berkeley shell mound and village site in California in 2020. This is the ancestral places of Utah, which was in 2019. And as many of you all know, the needs related to preserving historic cemeteries is enormous. And the National Trust is committed to continuing to provide resources and tools to address that need, such as this webinar series, as well as an in person event this fall coordinating with our annual past forward conference in Washington DC. I want to say that everyone has a cemetery, whether it's one they love or one that is the final resting place for their loved ones. I myself came to be passionate about cemeteries due to my professional background in museums and historic site. So then the next slide please. Thanks. So, most recently before joining the National Trust, I served as the director special then special projects and volunteers at historic Oakland Cemetery in Atlanta, Georgia. And I'd like to introduce my co-host for today. Mr. Jason Church. Jason Church is the chief of technical services as a national center for preservation technology and training with the National Park Service. And Jason divides his time between conducting and house research, organizing various training events and teaching hands on conservation workshops. Church is currently the conservation chair of the Association for Graves and Studies. And he is the one of the best people to know in the field of cemetery preservation. So Jason, if you'd like to hop on. Hey, thanks Mary. So, welcome everybody today. Mary said my name is Jason church. I'm the national center for preservation technology and training and we're a national park service research and training office located in Natchez, Louisiana. And I've been here working in our cemetery preservation efforts for 18 years the center has been working with cemetery preservation longer than that. And we're we're super excited to have you all join us. You know, Mary threw her her hat in how she got involved. I will say I got involved in cemetery preservation in a third grade North Carolina history project. Where I did a walking video tour of Oakdale cemetery in Wilmington, North Carolina. And I've been hooked ever since. So I'm really excited that you're going to join us and please. Yeah, we've got two more webinar series that we're going to be doing. We're really excited to to share what we are passionate about with you. Thank you so much Jason. That's fantastic. And if you'd like, we can air that third grade tour of the cemetery in one of the future webinars. I actually have a digital copy of it. So in case y'all didn't know preservation leadership forum where this webinar is being hosted is the professional membership program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. This webinar series is made possible by members of preservation leadership forum and we sincerely thank those of y'all who are with us today. Before we begin your few technical logistics. We will take questions from the audience throughout the webinar. Please send questions via the Q&A function directly to panelists. You're welcome to submit at any point during the webinar, but we will be waiting until the Q&A section to answer questions. You are also encouraged to communicate to all participants, you know, throughout through the chat function of the closed captioning function is enabled for this webinar. Following the program we will be sending out a recording of today's webinar directly to the email you use to register. But, you know, I encourage you to please share the recording with your colleagues working to preserve their historic cemeteries. And, you know, please also feel free to introduce yourself in your cemetery in the chat and let us know what future topics or tools you'd like to see. Finally, all forum webinars are archived in our forum webinar library. And without any further ado, if you'll go to the next slide please. I'd like to introduce our panelists today we're joined by Christopher Cody with the National Trust for Historic Preservation, Pam Bowman with the National Trust for Historic Preservation, as well as Everett Fly and Everett Fly Associates. Next slide please. First up we have Christopher Cody. Christopher Cody is Associate General Counsel for the National Trust for Historic Preservation working in the area of legal advocacy. Prior to the National Trust, Mr. Cody was a Deputy State Historic Preservation Officer for the State of Arizona, and Manager of Advocacy and Staff Attorney for Historic Charleston Foundation in Charleston, South Carolina. Chris, would you like to take it over. Thank you very much Mary. Next slide please. This is a very brief overview of the legal framework for burial sites and cemeteries followed by a discussion of legal issues and federal law. So burial sites are a special type of real property, and there's an important distinction I'd like to make right off the bat. Although we may refer to any real property containing human remains as a burial site. All burial sites are not cemeteries. Instead cemeteries are defined by state statutes that vary significantly from state to state. The definitions of cemeteries often specifically exclude individual marked and unmarked graves and burial places owned by restricted groups such as families, religious organizations or fraternal organizations. Individual state statutes and common law contain these relevant legal definitions and distinctions. Now, how the law deals with cemeteries and burial sites has been a concern since the earliest days of our country. The first Supreme Court case on the subject was all the way back in 1829. In the quote at the bottom of this slide from a 1926 case out of New York, I think well summarizes the law's respect for the dead and burial sites, the dead are to rest where they have been laid, unless a reason of substance is brought forward for disturbing their repose. Next slide please. Let's start our discussion of the legal framework concerning descendants rights. And you will hear me repeat this throughout this presentation, the laws in this area vary from state to state. However, universally descendants have legal rights connected to their ancestors burial sites. These rights are not ownership rights rather they're typically more akin to an easement and gross, which is a type of affirmative easement that empowers a specific individual or entity with a specific right. It really differs from an easement appertainment that attaches to the property itself, like an access easement where one property is the dominant estate and the other the subservient. The most common example of an easement and gross is a utility easement. Now the way to determine whether or not any kind of easement exists on a piece of property is through a detailed title examination. Check with your local property records office to make sure that you've examined every possible piece of information about your property. And I know that other speakers are going to touch on this as well. Next slide please. Let's now move to the legal framework for the private ownership of burial sites. While descendants do have the right to visit the burial sites of their ancestors, those rights are not unlimited. Again, this varies from state to state, but generally speaking the owners of burial sites and cemeteries can require reasonable notice prior to a descended visit, and can also reasonably limit the hours open for visitation, and even the frequency and duration of visits. I know that my colleagues are going to speak more about maintenance later, but to quickly touch on it from a legal perspective. First of all, many jurisdictions have no maintenance requirements for the private owners of burial sites. That being said, if they're neglected, they can potentially rise the level of being a nuisance if they diminish the value of neighboring properties. Finally, in some cases, private property owners are willing to provide some public access to burial sites for non descendants. The images on this slide are from the burial site of Johnny Ringo, who famously was a villain in the shoot out at the okay Corral and tombstone Arizona. It's located in a remote area of southeastern Arizona, and the owners of the property faced with public interest in the site, built a turn off to help facilitate public access. As you can see from the before slide in the bottom left, the site is by a picturesque river. Unfortunately, the public began to abuse the site, leading to the direction of a sign establishing rules which you can see in the center. And then finally, if you look closely at the image on the bottom right, the owners had to erect a fence all around the site to keep people from camping nearby and from hiking all over their private land and generally trashing the area. So let's look at the challenges of inviting the public to visit privately owned burial sites and the cost that the owner sometime have to bear. Next slide please. Let's now move on from the legal framework to legal issues starting with relocation. Sometimes the owners of burial sites and cemeteries wish for them to be relocated often to allow for redevelopment. This is usually possible if certain conditions are met. I again have to the most common condition is the burial site or cemetery has to be abandoned and now I again have to mention that this differs from state to state. But let's look at Virginia's requirements as an example. To be considered abandoned in Virginia, there cannot have been any new burials for the past 25 years, and there has to be evidence that no one has maintained the site for a substantial time period. Virginia requires a court hearing for the relocation of human remains in that hearing must include public notes, and while not required recommended actions prior to a court hearing in Virginia include conducting a genealogical search for descendants, engaging an archaeologist to determine the exact boundaries of the site and contacting the State Historic Preservation Office to evaluate the site for historic significance. Next slide please. Continuing our exploration of legal issues. Let's now turn to the issue of intentional damage. Again, our favorite refrain is relevant here. It differs from state to state. However, the intentional damaging of a burial site is always a serious criminal offense. In fact, damage, but damaging or relocating human remains is typically a Fallon. If you're concerned that a burial site or cemetery is potentially going to suffer damage, there are two important things you can do. First, notify the potential offender. Most of the criminal statutes tied to the damaging of burial sites and cemeteries required that the offender has the intent to commit the crime. A record of notice stating that, for example, an area slated for development has burial sites within it makes it more difficult for an offender to later claim that they didn't intentionally disturb human remains. Also inform all relevant state officials and local ones as well. You'll see in the image on this slide a newspaper article. It concerns a development project that included a historic cemetery outside of Charleston, South Carolina. In this case, in addition to the fenced map cemetery for white people, it was known locally that an African American burial ground also existed just outside of the white cemetery's boundaries. In 2021, the South Carolina Department of Health and Environmental Control halted work at this site because of information that it had received in regards to this potential burials demonstrating the effectiveness of providing notice to the appropriate state officials. Lastly, on this slide, you'll see an example of Virginia's law that establishes the disintermented displacement of human remains as a class four felony. Again, this is a serious crime. Next slide. Let's take a look at some other examples of Virginia laws that deal with intentional damage. I find these two laws interesting. Now please note their exceptions to them for regular maintenance. So first subpart one makes it a crime to remove cut breaker injure any tree shrub or plant within any cemetery. That's a very high level of protection. Second subpart two also makes it a crime to damage or remove anything placed at essentially any burial site. See the expansive definition. Again, this is a high level of protection with criminal penalties. Lastly, these two laws show how cemeteries are typically treated differently than other types of burial places by the law, often afforded higher protections, even extending to their landscaping in Virginia. Next slide please. Another example of a Virginia law that deals with intentional damage to burial sites. This law makes it a felony to destroy mutilate to face injure or remove any element of virtually any burial site explicitly including the fencing or railing around. This again underscores the serious nature of any molestation of burial sites, the law clearly demands respect for the dead and for their final resting places with high felony penalties for violations. Next slide please. Next, let's briefly discuss the legal issues surrounding the discovery of human remains or funerary objects. The statute on this slide is from Arizona and includes a couple important concepts related to discoveries. First of all, there's a virtually universal duty to report the discovery of any human remains, no matter the circumstances. In Arizona, the discovery of human remains, funerary objects, ceremonial objects for objects of national or tribal patrimony must be reported to the director of the Arizona State Museum. Note that this particular law does not generally apply to private citizens on private property, but rather to state and local governments and permitted archeological explorations. The director then has a responsibility to notify not only potential relatives, but also any groups or tribes that may have a cultural or religious affinity with their remains or objects, along with relevant academics and the State Historic Preservation Officer. Next slide please. This law includes the important concept of tribal notification. Arizona has 22 federally recognized tribes and for many of them, the remains of their ancestors and associated funerary objects are highly sacred. As you can see from the statute, each tribe that wishes to receive notice of discoveries must keep on file with the director at geographic area and list of cultural groups for which they claim affinity. This is a very important concept as it relates to discoveries. Some American tribes historically often occupy different areas than they do now, and the area in which a tribe claims affinity can be far more expansive than you might expect. The evolution of cultural groups is also important. Tribes that today are unrelated can sometimes have common ancestors, which creates an interest in their remains or objects associated with those ancient ancestors. Next slide please. The concept of tribal notification and respect for tribal remains and objects is enshrined in federal law. The federal law that provides these protections is NAGPRA first passed in 1990. NAGPRA establishes federal protections for Native American burial sites, human remains and cultural items, and both civil and criminal penalties for violations. It requires federal agencies and some recipients of federal funds to undertake notification and repatriation efforts. And for more information, the National Perk Services Service administers the National NAGPRA program. You can see a link to it on this slide. I encourage you all to look to that for more information. This is a very complex law. And many states have state level laws that echo NAGPRA, like the Arizona law that we just reviewed on the previous two slides. Next slide please. I'd like to end by bringing up section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act and how it deals with burial places and cemeteries. For those of you who are unfamiliar, the NHPA requires federal undertakings, consider historic resources via the section 106 process, be aware that burial sites and cemeteries are not automatically considered historic resources for the purposes of section 106. And satisfy the criteria for listing on the National Register of Historic Places to be so considered. Now, there's a policy statement that's been adopted by the President's Advisory Council on Historic Preservation concerning burial sites in section 106. There's a link to it on the slide here. And this is an excellent resource for understanding best practices as it relates to section 106 and burial sites. And finally, I'd like to highlight some ongoing national trust work with section 106 and historic burial sites and cemeteries, specifically at Chaco Hill African Burial Ground in Virginia. And at morning start Tabernacle number 88 order of Moses Cemetery and Hall in Maryland. Both of these African American burial sites are threatened by proposed transportation projects that require section 106 review. And Moses Hall was actually previously damaged by a 1960s road project and was included on our 2021 list of the 11 most endangered places in America. So with that I conclude my presentation. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much Chris. Moving on to our next panelist we are joined by Pam Bowman, who is the senior director for public plans policy and the government relations department at the National Trust, where she focuses on designing and implementing advocacy campaigns to secure passage of federal legislation. Pam has spent the last 20 years in Washington DC, deeply engaged in the legislative process, including working for two members of Congress on their legislative teams and for nonprofit organizations as an advocate and lobbyists at the National Trust her work includes federal funding advocacy and supporting legislation that would permanently protect historic places nationwide. Thank you Pam. Mary, and hi everyone. Thanks for joining the webinar today. I am going to briefly share with you some background on a future federal funding opportunity for the preservation community and those who are working to preserve African American burial grounds. And we also have an opportunity to get involved in advocacy for federal appropriations to help support a new program. Next slide please. The National Trust, along with our partners for several years worked on the legislative effort to establish a grant program to preserve African American burial grounds. Many of you on this webinar may have taken action on our website in the past couple years to send letters to your members of Congress supporting this bill, or joining us for the virtual Hill meetings that we had last fall as part of our past forward conference. So again to all those who got involved in this legislative effort, all of your support and involvement were instrumental in the success of this legislation. So in the last Congress bipartisan legislation called the African American Burial Grounds Preservation Act was broadly supported in both the House and the Senate. In the interim elections, Congress needed to pass a large spending package to fund the government. And what we've seen in recent years is that other bipartisan bills often get added to those large legislative spending packages. So we were definitely thrilled when the legislative provisions of this bill were included as part of the fiscal year 2023 omnibus spending package that was enacted in December 2022 just before the holidays. And as the bill did, it is it established the National Park Service African American Burial Grounds preservation program by authorizing $3 million annually for five years. And this grant program will aid efforts across the country to research, identify document preserve and interpret historic African American burial grounds. So one of the things that's important to this legislation is that the Secretary of the Interior must engage in consultation with the National Trust and members of the African American heritage community in developing that grant program so we are definitely looking forward to collaborating with the National Park Service and others in implementing this new initiative. So while we're very excited about this legislative success and the new program. There's several steps between now and when the program will be operational. Funding and appropriations can be a lengthy process and everything happens in a particular order. So in the case for this bill and this program, it needs to be authorized, then the federal dollars need to be appropriated and then the National Park Service would have the funds available to carry out the program. Some of these programs in the federal budget are only authorized for specific period of time and for example this one is for five years. So one of the first steps that since this legislation authorized the appropriation. Congress is still going to need to actually appropriate the money as part of the fiscal year 2024 appropriation cycle. And the great news is that we've already seen support for that funding early in 2023. In March, President Biden's fiscal year 2024 budget proposal to Congress included the full $3 million to the National Park Service for the grant program. And several Senate offices have already led a letter to the Appropriations Committee in support of fully funding the program at 3 million. Next slide please. So this is definitely an opportunity for all of us to engage in federal advocacy over the next few weeks and months to show our support for fully funding the African American Burial Grounds Program. A big part of the government relations work at the National Trust is advocating for federal funding, including grant programs that support the preservation and protection of historic sites and cultural artifacts nationwide. This includes developing resources so that we can collectively push for sustained federal funding. And here again on the slide is an ask that you can make to your members of Congress in both the House and the Senate. And that ask is to support full funding at $3 million for the new National Park Service African American Burial Grounds Program. I also add a link to the chat to our annual report called the preservation budget select preservation priorities for fiscal year 2024 appropriations. And this is a report we share with Congress and the preservation community each year, the recommends funding levels for various programs. And you'll see that it's a long report covers a wide variety of federal funding issues, and you may find a number of other programs you're interested in supporting. But in terms of this program, there's a front and back page for the Burial Grounds preservation program and that should be PDF page 25 to read more about the details for that advocacy. The trust government relations team has already been in contact with our partners and champions on Capitol Hill about the annual appropriation. And we definitely need your support so that members of Congress are hearing directly from constituents about the importance of this community community program and what that would do for Burial Grounds throughout the nation. So whenever possible, when you're talking to the congressional offices about this program, really share as much detail as you can about state and local examples will resonate with congressional offices. Elected officials and their staff love to hear the personal stories and the histories of places they represent. And it really does make a big difference in giving context and personalization to the asks that you're making of that office. So we're hoping to secure another win on this issue with full funding for the program. The National Park Service will launch their process for designing and creating the new program. And one of the best ways for you to get updates on when that funding is secured. And when this program launches is by signing up to receive our monthly government relations email newsletter, if you don't already receive it. Here's where we share updates throughout the year on federal advocacy opportunities for you to get engaged, and also upcoming dates for grant application deadlines. I'll briefly mention something about NAGPRA, the previous presenter Chris Cody spoke about NAGPRA and I wanted to briefly mention there's occasionally opportunities to engage with congressional offices about the law and its implementation. In the House, the committee of jurisdiction is the House Natural Resources Committee, and in the Senate, it's the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee and there's often hearings and other bills and legislation that get introduced throughout the year. And this issue is often mentioned during their deliberations and they're generally good committees to follow if you're interested in learning more. And I'll also drop a link in the chat to one of our partners, the National Association of Tribal Historic Preservation Officers, who have a page dedicated to NAGPRA and the advocacy work that they've done. And it shows some pretty good examples of advocacy opportunities that arise around NAGPRA. In addition to some of the other links that have been shared from the National Park Service about the background of that particular law. And I will stop there. Thanks everybody. Thank you so much, Pam. Moving on we are, we are joined by Everett L. Fly. Fly is a San Antonio native and resident, a licensed landscape architect and an architect. He has more than 40 years of national experience preserving historic black towns and settlements. He is a fellow of the American Society of Landscape Architects. Awards include the 2014 National Humanities Medal, 2020 Conservation Society of San Antonio, Texas Hero of Preservation Award, 2021 Daughters of the American Revolution Historic Preservation Medal, and the 2021 Harvard University Graduate School of Design Distinguished Alumni Award. Thank you so much for joining us today, Everett. Thank you, Mary, for having me and I want to thank Christopher and Pam for really setting up the stage of the ordinances, the policies, the guidelines that you would come in contact when you're dealing with a historic cemetery. I understand that it might seem like very overwhelming, but there are ways that you can gradually work your way into documenting and understanding the kind of resource that you have. And then of course, as Christopher and Pam pointed out, there are regulations, definitions, criteria that you have to match as you go along. So I'm going to try to highlight some of those and see if I can tie some of the strings together for the participants. One of the things that both of them pointed out is, excuse me, just a second, excuse me, that the burial grounds may not be clearly defined. And so what we have to recognize and understand is that many of our burial grounds are what I would call vernacular in nature. In other words, they don't follow a geometric grid, they don't follow a particular stylistic pattern. They kind of evolve organically in our American landscape. So next slide please. So I'd like to start just by setting out some thoughts of how do you document and how do you verify the context for ownership, the airship of ownership and as Christopher did a good job pointing out ownership itself. One of the things that I've learned in working with these resources is that the context, the physical as well as the cultural context might give you a lot of clues. And that's what you're working for is to build up as many clues and pieces of documentation as possible. Genealogy would seem like an obvious strategy and an obvious approach. Family genealogy, including oral history. But one of the things that I've learned is how important community genealogy is, and I'll give you a couple of examples. It may not seem that oral history is really possible with some of these older cemeteries, but again, one of the things that I've learned is that the stories and the experiences have been passed on from one generation to another. And you can take a little bit of time to sit down either with some of the folks or some of the representatives of religious congregations or organizations. You'll find out that somebody has a little thread of information, a little clue, a piece of information that that will give you a clue. And then documentation, of course, is always important. A deed description, a lot of times can be found. It's tedious to go through those deeds, but I'll show you an example in a moment where there was actually there's actually a mention of a deed, and then of course survey, and the survey can be prepared by professional certified or licensed surveyor. But there are things that you can do starting out with your kind of preliminary investigation. And I'll talk about that. Next slide please. Of course, here's an example of a family genealogy. This is a genealogy chart, and this family is looking to see who's related to whom. One of the things, as pointed out, I think Chris did a good job. And one of the things that I've learned is that families can be quite extended. And there may be in a seemingly a family plot there may be some neighbors that are buried there may be some folks from completely different parts of the community or different parts of the county. Buried for different cultural reasons. So, when you're working with family genealogy connected to a cemetery. I would suggest that you try to find as broad of a genealogy as possible, and look for as many different connections as possible. The next slide please. These are two examples of what I'm talking about when I say community genealogy. These are two newspaper articles that I just wanted to show you as an example I'm not expecting you to read the articles but on the left is June 8 of 1900, and it's appeared in the Waterbury evening Democrat newspaper in Connecticut, and it explained that prominent family Mr and Mrs Clarence Mackie were building a home and discovered that there was a Negro cemetery and the Mackie's purchased land and made an arrangement for the bodies that were buried in the cemetery to be reinterred. So there's several clues in here, the Mackie's themselves so you would be looking for the deeds related to the Mackie's. You would be looking for that land that the Mackie's owned, when they made the purchase and discovered the cemetery you would be looking who did they purchase that land from. And what was the history connected to that, that burial plot, and those folks, and then connect that, for example to your to your genealogy. And then where was the, the new burial ground or burial place located. And the right is January 2, 1914 in the, it appeared in the Riverdale pointer newspaper in Illinois, and you can see there at the top it says new Negro cemetery, and it explains that the community of Thornton Illinois was named for a new Negro cemetery, and they assigned a name to that new cemetery was called was to be called Mount Forest. And it also explains that it says the deal was completed at the Olivet Baptist Church, it gives the address of the church, and then it says that the contract was signed by. And it gives several people Ryan hold our hope of Philadelphia and the Reverend E J Fisher and H J Cali. So you'd want to look, look up all of those folks and all of those addresses, you'd want to look up the, the church religious congregation and see if you can understand what the connection was. And then what struck me one of the things that struck me that was interesting is that it mentions that right hold our hope was from Philadelphia. So what was his connection. And of course what you're doing as you're going along is building historic information, and possibly a case for historic significance you heard Christopher in his discussion outline that every cemetery is not historic. So the background and, and the, to explain the significance in order to, to receive that designation. So you would have to do extensive in either one of these cases you have to do extensive community research and genealogy work to make those connections. Next slide please. A couple of a couple of experiences I've had in more than one place. And again you heard Christopher talk about public nuisance and that kind of thing but a number of cases I've come across where cemeteries are have been taxed. And the families that receive the, the tax bills were afraid to get involved because they thought they would, you know be liable for these taxes and of course this varies is Christopher pointed out across the country. Often if you can find one of these tax statements, it'll give you the name of the person associated or related so this may be an air that's related to this cemetery it may be a trustee, it may be a benevolent organization or religious organization, but there are clues once again in these kind of public records of the one on the right is a citation. Again Christopher mentioned this the one on the right is a citation code compliant citation for an overgrown cemetery. And again, when you read the fine print. It gave the name of the person that was or family that was supposedly had custody of this cemetery or property. And it gives you a way to again you're connecting the dots and trying to determine that ownership or airship advocacy or whether somebody is just acting as an agent for that piece of property. The next slide for you. Legal description. Again, we assume many times that there's, there's no legal description for these burial sites or cemeteries. But here's an example that that actually includes the meats and bounds in other words the, the length and the orientation of each boundary of this particular cemetery. And I made a larger image there on the right again I'm not expecting you to read it but I just wanted you to see how detailed it is. And I did underline there in the slide on the right where it says that this was set up for a Negro graveyard. And it also in the text of this deed description it says that this, the other land surrounding this graveyard was being sold. They even accept for the Negro cemetery so they're not selling the cemetery in this in this transaction. And then it goes on to give these detailed meats and bounds. Again, the orientation of the boundary boundaries of the property, the length of the property and their relationship to other adjacent property lines. So you can find a meats and bounds description, such as this. I mean this is, as they say this is a gold mine. It's loaded with information that helps you connect. Not only the genealogical dots but the physical dots, you know where these properties are located, and how they related to, to other adjacent properties. And then of course, what you're hoping is, is that if you can gather enough public records information you can come up with a physical survey, land survey of the land of the property, and even if you don't have access to a survey with our modern technology there are things that you can do for example you can go out. Many of us with our smartphones and record the latitude and longitude locations. But in this particular case it was a project that I was working on. We were able to get a certified surveyor to essentially donate this survey. And so you can see at the right, the, the kind of light gray line that shows the easement to the survey to the property, the green parcels represent the actual cemetery proper. The kind of blue and purple or pink areas represent, there was a conflict in this particular survey. The adjacent landowners had actually encroached into the survey. When this subdivision was platted, and by having a certified survey. We were able to compare the subdivision track survey with this cemetery survey and determine that there was, there was actually an encroachment. We also used in this particular survey. We, we also used old aerial photographs. Some of the photographs came from the transportation department. Say 1930s or 40s vintage. We used aerial aerial photographs from the soil conservation service. And we also used old land grant records. All these are overlaid to verify this survey. And, and again what you want to include is, of course you want to include the boundaries. The easements you heard Chris talk about the easements, whether they're utilities or access easements, whether there were any markers. And again, you would be looking for vernacular markers that simple piles of stones or simple hand hewn stones, topography and vegetation. I want to go back and talk for a moment about the easements. One of my observations in these vernacular cemeteries and older cemeteries across the country is that many times the, the indigenous burials. The Asian American burials the African American burials were not right on the roadway. And this seems to be have been done intentionally. So, don't assume that the cemetery is right on the, the main road or the main path. It may have been set off away from the main road for defensive purposes to protect the cemetery. Topography also plays another role in what you're looking for. You, you want to be again, cognizant of whether it's, it's on a rise, a high point, a low point. Many of these cemeteries are on high on rises. In other words, the folks understood the, you know, the natural patterns of drainage and and even access and place these carefully and they don't always match. Our modern community and urban layouts. And then of course, vegetation, you're looking you want, especially the larger vegetation you want that included in your survey, because what you're looking for our I think the National Park Service has a program they call witness trees. You're looking for natural or native vegetation that might have marked a corner, or might have marked location of a significant family. Next slide please. So, again, by identifying these physically, you're looking to build strategies for preservation, conservation, interpretation, commemoration and maintenance. You want to want these to all be as authentic as possible. We understand all of us that are involved in this, how much pressure there can be in order to come up with a quick decision or quick solution or a quick way to protect the cemetery, or burial site. But by careful documentation, careful field investigation. And as I pointed out, even the kind of preliminary note taking that you can do on foot. You can, you can begin to build a careful strategy because many times this these take years in order to preserve and get a handle on them, but without this kind of overlapping documentation of context, airship and ownership. It makes your work even more difficult. So, I would just urge you to be careful, be complete and thorough and overlap your strategies for this work. Thank you, Mary, and I'll turn it back to you. Thank you so very much, Everett. We appreciate your expertise today. We are going to transition over to our question and answer period within this webinar. I'd also like to note that through the Q&A session, we will be joined by Simeon A. Warren, who is the Chief of Architecture and Engineering with the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training with the National Park Service, to provide a little bit of biography. He brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the NCPTP and trade education, building, construction and environmental art practice. He is a trained cathedral stone carver, sculptor, conservator and environmental artist and was part of the formative team that developed the School of Building Arts, which became the American College of the Building Arts in 2005. He was the founding dean of the college and helped develop the college's interdisciplinary program that integrates trade and liberal arts education alongside the line fields in preservation, architecture and building design. We'll also be joined by all of our other panelists. We ask that as our panelists answer questions that they turn their cameras on so that everyone can see them in the webinar. And without further ado, I can jump into some of the Q&A. We have quite a few questions for our panelists today. Starting out, we have a question from Billy Follensby. Is there a list of which offices or sources to contact and or consult in each state where people can find out who owns or legally controls cemeteries? I can get questions from people who want me or my students to assist with the conservation of a rural forgotten cemetery near them, but they do not know who owns it and cannot afford to hire a lawyer to find out for them. My university will now allow us to work there unless we have express permission from the owners or legal caretakers of the cemetery. If any of our panelists would like to chime in. Hi, this is Chris Cody and I'm happy to chime in. I know that ever it also touched on this. But, you know, really the best way to tell is to start with a thorough examination of the title and usually the local property records office or recorder, you know, there are a lot of different names for them can help you with accessing that information. That's the best place to start. Thank you, Chris. Would anyone else like to chime in? All right. We have a question from Anne Brockett, which is, can an owner deny access to descendants, whether or not there isn't easement attached to the deed. Well, I'm happy to jump back in and answer this one as well. You know, my general answer is that it depends on on your jurisdiction. I think you heard me say it differs from state to state repeatedly during my presentation. As I also said, in general, descendants do have an inherent right to access the burial places of their descendants, although, or their ancestors, pardon me, although the owner of the property is permitted to place reasonable restrictions on that access, depending on the local jurisdiction. Now, if, you know, to the degree to which relation is required for an easement and gross to be implied, usually depends on the specific local laws I've even in my research seen some restrictions that create an implied easement and gross, even for those pursuing pursuing genealogical research and privately owned burial places and cemeteries so there's a lot of variation. Yeah, that variation seems to be something of a theme when it comes to ownership and access. We have several more questions related to ownership and titles but to shift over slightly. We have a question from Ann Cust that says, how does NAGPRA impact in in our HP listed archaeological site connected to a federally unrecognized Native American tribe what rights and resources impact heritage management these groups. Well, thank you for rereading that question I'll jump back in and just say that that is a very complicated question, especially given the unrecognized status of the tribe. You know, I would really encourage you to refer that very specific question to the National Park Service and to their NAGPRA program which they administer as as for the specific best practices I wish I knew the exact correct answer and I don't want to risk giving saying something that's wrong. You know my gut instinct is that given that it's a national registered site or listed site and you know the productions of NAGPRA that any objects should fall under the protections of NAGPRA, but for exactly how that then interfaces with an unrecognized tribe is not a specific area that I'm familiar with. I would hope that because the involvement of section 106 that the State Historic Preservation Officer would also have some say in ensuring that the responsibilities of the actor under NAGPRA were fully respected. Thank you so much Chris. We have a question for Pam. The African American Barrier Grounds Protection Program was written to receive funding in fiscal year 2023. Since we know that's not happened until fiscal year 2024 will the funding be extended to indeed go for five years, regardless of when first year funding begins. Thanks. Yeah, that's a really good question. And there's actually a line written into the legislation that basically says, if there's any money that does not get spent in a particular fiscal year, it'll be available for subsequent fiscal years. What that means is while we're in fiscal year 2023. A lot of that time is ticking down while we're waiting for Congress to go through the appropriations process, but what will happen is the money for fiscal year 2023 will be available in the future and it's not lost money. So that money will still be able to be a part of the grant program. Thank you. What, what do you see as the biggest obstacles for legislation moving forward regarding burial site preservation. Currently, this has been one of the two bills the National Trust has been focused on related to some of the issues that we've been talking about on the webinar today. And thankfully we had the big legislation slate of wind back in December 2022 that got this legislation enacted and I think the hurdle that we face on this issue now is just waiting for Congress to go through the appropriate steps for the appropriation cycle. I think, as I mentioned, we've seen some good indication so far that there's been support in the President's budget for having the full $3 million for the first year, and also already letters on Capitol Hill that have signaled support to the Appropriations Committee. So I definitely encourage all of you to use some of the National Trust's appropriations resources and keep the drumbeat going and no momentum on support for this funding. We'll need to show that support every year to make sure that Congress appropriates the full amount. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Pam. Thank you, John Allen. If a historic burial ground is not a quote contributing element to but lies within an historic district, is it protected by federal law. So that question is, is it, if an historic building ground is not a contributing element to but lies within a historic district is it protected by federal law. I'm happy to answer that one. If it is not recognized as a contributing element of that historic district, then it is not considered a historic resource for the purposes of federal law. I think the question is, oh yeah, yes, it's not a contributing element. Yeah. Thank you. Let's see. We have a question from Tanya DeBose. In Texas there's a bill to allow disinterment without notification to descendants. Where can we find federal legislation to help us advocate for public notice. I think we'd also assume that question, you know, what are the resources might be available to address this issue to repeat that in Texas there's a bill to allow disinterment without notification to descendants. Where can we find federal legislation or other resources to help us advocate for public notice. Hi, this is Pam. I can just say briefly, at the National Trust, our government relations department were primarily focused on federal legislation. I can't think of anything off the top of my head specifically related to that issue with pending legislation, but I am happy to put my email address in the chat and if you'd like to reach out to me directly I can, I can take a walk. I can add to that answer that, and there was actually a great comment in the webinar chat after my last answer about NAGPRA and private lands that you know generally NAGPRA does not apply to private lands. However, if there's a state bill that would, I'm just imagining guessing change or eliminate the notice requirement within state statute for disinterment. The federal NAGPRA requirements still exist and there can be other hooks for NAGPRA to apply such as the use of federal funding, or the granting of a federal permit for a project, even if it's conducted on private land. We have a question from Joseph Latschall. What are ways to approach getting a professional survey of a cemetery with limited funds? And Joseph I will say that our third webinar will focus on strategies for fundraising, especially towards preservation. So it's certainly something that we'll be able to talk about further in future parts of this series. But if anyone else would like to contribute to his answering his question. So Mary, I'll start. Seems like I've had quite a few opportunities to work with that. One of the things that I've observed in working with the professional surveyors is, again, if you can provide some background information, you know, like show you the meets and bounds description. You can look for old US Geological Survey maps. You know, any, any kind of advanced footwork that you can do helps your case in approaching a surveyor. So that survey that I showed in my slide deck, we were able to get the surveyor to donate his services because we had done that, you know, early footwork. In other words, he did not have to go out and find that boundary description. We found surrounding property maps, etc. So we gave him a really big head start. There, there are also, we were able to get different advanced university classes to work with the civil engineering can again, a lot of times help civil engineering students need field projects. Geologic engineering students need field projects and then they're also, we've come across kind of community service groups. You know, whether they'd be archaeologists or civil engineers or civil engineering professional groups associations. A lot of times they have folks that are looking for community service work. And so it might seem challenging but you know those are techniques that I've used and have had pretty good success. Thank you so much. We have a question from Kelly Christopher, where there isn't a clearly defined owner of a cemetery and the owners organization hasn't existed since the 1940s. Are there any suggestions or way to move in a direction to change ownership of the cemetery to preserve an encroachment of the residential neighborhood built around it. So it's a cemetery without a clearly defined owner. Is there any recommendations on that. Well, I'll go ahead and jump in again man these are some really tough questions but you know I think as we're discovering with cemeteries and burial sites that it's always complex and it's always variable and easy. So, with the case of you know they're being no identified owner, I would want to know who the owner of the underlying parcel of land is, and what their intentions are I think I described the process at least for how remains could be relocated from an abandoned cemetery but whether this place meets the definition of abandoned in that local jurisdictions laws is you know one question. What the owner wants to do with the land and you know the degree to which you can affect that decision making process under your local jurisdiction is another question. And then from there, if you're able to have the owner of the parcel agree to allow an organization to have some kind of ownership interest be it the easement gross as I described, or you know even fee simple ownership to try and protect it. I think that's something that could then lead to an organization being able to preserve it in regards to having to deal with the development around it. I did bring up the example of the cemetery outside of Charles in South Carolina where you know if you think the boundaries of this cemetery don't include all of the potential burials that's a very important thing to note, and to inform the developer and any relevant state local officials about. Thank you. Yolanda Boyd has a question about whether or not in sleep cemeteries for enslaved people will fall under HR 6805 section 3667. And which is the African American Barrow Grounds Preservation Act whether or not cemeteries for enslaved people will fall under that protection. Sorry, I missed the first part. The short answer is that written into the legislation, there's a finding section at the top that describes some of the history and reasoning for the bill and it specifically mentions slave burial grounds. And that's certainly one of the topics and issues that as the National Park Service is kind of building out the program criteria for the grant program. They'll do some work around what types of sites would be included. I know on the National Trust and there's been some activity of the African American Cultural Heritage Action Fund in support of the bill so that's very exciting to see, you know, increasing support for through legislation and funding. Next up, we have. What are the access rights if the gravestones if gravestones have been relocated to another site, but the graves have not been moved. Access of gravestones have been removed from a burial ground, but the graves have not been moved. They don't sound like a broken record but it depends on jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You know, I think it also depends on the nature of the gravestones or markers. The burial site itself and the remains are what is contemplated by the law in terms of providing an implied easement and gross, but I don't want to exclude the possibility that in some places objects associated with that burial place are similarly, can provide an implied easement and gross as well. So it depends. Again, my final answer. Understood. Simi, I think this will be a good question for you. A question from Paul Smith. We took over a cemetery with a stack of broken headstones with little to no record of where they go what is a common result for this type of situation. And what do we do with all the broken stones. Yeah, so, you know, it's not uncommon that stones are moved. And obviously, it's very hard and difficult to know exactly where the lie unless there were original maps. A lot of churches have original maps that you can kind of find. If you can find those then you can kind of reposition those back to their original sites. And a lot of, you know, mending stones. We have at NCPT developed page on our on the website for MPS, an area that, you know, talks about a lot of areas of, of mending monuments. So I don't know whether someone can put that in chat while while we talk but that's a good resource to kind of look at how, how to mend monuments and how to clean monuments. And again, I think with stone. It really depends on what the damage is. There's many different types of repair. Sometimes the simplest thing is the easiest thing. And also, I think people need to remember that stone has been around for a long time. And it takes a long time for stone to decay generally so kind of waiting to think loudly about kind of what your objectives are and also going to, if it's a complicated thing actually going and investigating what the best methods are and if there's anyone local that does the kind of work that you kind of need. Again, it's really specific to what the damages and how the stones are kind of broken and how they go back together and so you know I've done last 30 years. I've been kind of working with stone and every time I find a new stone it's there's always a new way to do something so it really depends on on what that damages and what that stone is and I do know that we'll be doing some of kind of those conversations and the next programs coming up. I think the third program is kind of about where to start with some of the physical kind of work and so that that you know have to kind of tune in again to find out some of those methods and methodologies. I'd add to that the importance of reaching out to families when able, maybe something that they would be interested in retaining themselves. Also, Simeon, we have someone buying for a position within the NCPTT in the chat so if you have any recommendations for where they can look about the internship or job openings, they appreciate it. Yeah, I mean we're a government agency so if job openings we have a new landscape position coming up for NCPTT pretty soon, that's probably in fall when that comes out. But also we do do internships and a lot of those are kind of done as a part of our projects and so kind of getting in touch with the departments that you're interested in and finding out what opportunities are available. It's probably the best way to do it is actually get in touch with those department heads and seeing what opportunities are coming up and going out out there. Everett, we have a question directly for you. Mr. Fly has worked with many of our historic black towns and settlements to help identify historical and cultural resources. However, it's surprising what cemeteries are not automatically protected. Can you expound on any work that you're doing to assist people dealing with enslaved burial sites. Thank you Tanya for the question. Just in my work with the communities, I consider the burial sites integral parts of the communities and so I'm always looking, you know, as a whole, you know, the burial site, the church site, the school site, the residential sites, etc. And I see them as as inseparable, you know, from that, that whole picture of preservation. And I'll say real quick, I think Stemian gave you a good guidance in that previous question about the, the gravestones but I'm also very concerned about, you know, retaining the authenticity of the sites. So removing fragments and artifacts and that kind of thing I think if there's any way that they can be retained on site until you, that's what I was getting at when I say you figure out your strategy and, you know, advance your research. I think it would be, you know, really important but the, the burial sites in historic black communities are are very important and in many cases, the, the only authentic representation of that culture, and that community. Absolutely. This is a question from Tom Bradshaw. We also have another issue with the closure of churches and some have graveyards on their property. When they're sold and become private property how can we ensure that there's access to our loved one, our loved ones that have been buried there. So this is access to a burial site, following the closure and sale of the church. Not not hearing anyone else jumping in I'll go ahead and weigh in again that, you know, even if the church closes all of the laws again the applied access easement for the cemetery will still exist for descendants but also one other group that can enjoy those implied easements are groups with a demonstrated interest in the cemetery. Thank you. And just to note, we're going to have only a few more minutes for question answers, but I will be able to get to one or two more. Do most historic cemetery designations follow the 50 year rule as structures or some places designating cultural landmark status to cemeteries this question comes from Jack Lynch. Again, I'll just go ahead and jump in here although I'd love to hear Mr. Mr flies perspective as well. Most of them that I have seen recorded are recorded as above ground resources similar to other built environment resources on the National Register. However, the criteria under which cemeteries are listed are often, you know, different from built environment. The associations with famous people or episodes in American history or I think I believe are more frequently cited with cemeteries and they are for buildings, which primarily come in through architectural merit or contribution to an architectural district. And the idea of them being designated as sort of a cultural landscape, or some sort of traditional cultural property is an intriguing one. I'm just more familiar with their inclusion on National Register inventories in the same vein as built environment resources but it's an interesting idea to think about them, probably an appropriate one as cultural landscapes as much as any kind of building. Mary. Yes, I would, I would definitely agree with Chris. You know his interpretation. And this is kind of what I was touching on, you know, when I was talking about, you know, building the history of the, you know, the congregation, the culture and the people. Excuse me associated with it. So, you know, I'm like, like Chris said earlier, you know, each place is a little bit different. And so, I would tell the person that asked the question, you know, do not automatically rule it out. And again, that's where that extended community genealogy would come into play. You know, to see, you know, what the what the network of culture and history is related to that to that site. And, you know, even, you know, the physical form. Again, the orientation, the way the graves are laid out, you know, even the natural landscaping could be a contributing factor to, you know, building your, your case, you know for significance. Thanks. Yeah, thank y'all. And I will also note that we've gotten several questions about some fundraising for cemetery preservation, I always encourage y'all to look at the funding opportunities that are offered by the National Trust. There are many more out there and we'll have the opportunity to speak further about that subject matter in our third webinar in the series in June, looking at different fundraising strategies and opportunities. But otherwise, this is the end of our question and answer period unfortunately we don't have more time for y'all today. Our recording will be sent out to all registrant of the program. If you'll go to the next slide please. Yep, as I mentioned, for upcoming webinars, we're going to be looking at investigate investigating documenting preserving grave sites on May 10. And all of the various elements for beginning to care for a grave site including fundraising, preservation interpretation on June 21. We're very excited to be talking with y'all about those different areas. Next slide please. You know, we encourage y'all to visit our website forum dot saving places.org look out for other webinars and to view the webinar archives which will include this recording as well beyond it's it being sent out over email. Please feel free to contact us at forum online at saving places.org and just join me in thanking our panelists and the wonderful information that y'all were able to share with us today. And I hope that all of our participants have a have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much for joining us.