 Welcome everyone. We are very happy to have Marie Kjellberg and Corolina Hallbecken from Scania SGS today and they are going to talk about when Agile meets Lean, which I think is an interesting topic for many many. So I will just hand over the words to you. Thank you very much Ingela. And before we start I just want to say that we will leave room for questions after our presentation. So if you have questions you can write them in the chat or just wait until we have presented. And also I want to say that this is a bit of a new material. We will not give any answer on what Lean and Agile is. This is from the Scania perspective. So it will not be a facet but I hope it will be some kind of inspiration for you or that's the ambition. So welcome everyone. 130 years ago a company was founded and started to create bicycles and railroads carriages. As new technologies emerged the company transformed and started to make car trucks and buses. And in 1940 we launched a diesel engine with direct fuel injection and this increased the fuel efficiency by 25%. In the 1980s a fully modular truck range combined with economy of scale and with customization for customer needs was released. And this was the Scania modular system. The system was a result of years of hard work and research developed and refined since the 1960s. And this has become one of our most important success factors. We can from a limited number of main components we can create almost unlimited number of vehicles and engine variants to meet our customers special needs. And the story continued. In the 1990 the first step towards something called the Scania way was taken and we founded our house. The house was inspired by the Toyota way and the Lean principles with focus on core values enabling people and continuously improvements. The Scania way journey continued and today we are working towards science-based climate targets and wants to be a sustainable transport provider. But we are also facing new challenges like new business models for transports and also work in a much more disruptive environment than before. And I am Carolina Hallbecken and work as an engineering manager at the Scania with sales and services tools for our users. Hello everyone and I am Marie Kjellberg. I'm an adult people coach at Scania and work with the adult transformation and the agile people concept for trainings and coaching. Yes. So when agile meets lean at Scania magic happens. So this is a topic for today and this is what we are going to talk about. And as Carolina said we are facing societal and sustainable challenges never seen before and in a pace never expected. And when coming from a long background of designing and creating our organizations to optimize and streamline what we already is doing and constantly refining our products and processes with working with this really successful way of lean then it's a real challenge to actually to do these kind of changes to be able to adapt to this complex environment. And because of the structures we have built into the organization and design we have decided to measure and follow up everything we do and the processes are designed to do it as quickly as possible. So starting to adapt to a more complex environment where everything is connected and where cause and effect is no more and where change is constant it requires a lot of bravery and a lot of challenging discussions decisions. So how do we incorporate a new way of thinking and acting in this system while combining lean and continuous improvement which is in our Scania DNA with complexity and adaptability and new more adult ways of thinking is a balancing act but when getting it right it's a match made in heaven because knowing when to bring out the different tools and methods is the trick here knowing when to work with what. And these are actually some challenges that we think that many companies are standing in front of today and we are going to talk about our journey here. So some of the challenges we have being on our great mission going from building premium trucks, buses and engines to drive the shift towards a sustainable transport solution. We have these three transport technologies that we need to develop and do it in a really sustainable way. So we have the electrification autonomous and connected that we are going to need to be really good at. So this is how we have done to embark this journey. So to be this company that drives the shift not only is good at it but we are supposed to drive the shift that's our mission towards a sustainable transport system and creating a world of mobility that is better for business, society and the environment. We need to strengthen these four capabilities and by doing this we think we can reach even further into the future. So speed and flexibility. This is something that we have been good at I think from the beginning but now we also need to be even more adaptable with the solutions that we create. And we also need to be much faster reacting to change in these complex new settings. Develop and deliver solutions. It's something we of course do with the lean concept really really successful today but we have to do it more close to the customer. We have to know the customer even more and the customer collaboration will be core in this this new way of working. So working together and creating common solutions is something that we really value here and doing this together with the people at Scania and keep this engagement and make this inspiring and empower the people to be able to drive the shift will also be something that we focus on of course. And if we go down to the IT part where we work, Caroline and me, this is the things that we have created for these OKRs we have created for actually driving the shift and being the part of Scania that could actually drive the shift by utilizing the power of software and data in all areas. So we have created five focus areas and an OKR wheel we call this and this is what we think will support us and take us in the right direction. So we have the premium experience, we have awesome teams, data-driven Scania, modern digital ecosystem, operational excellence and these five focus areas we will go through and break down a little bit for you to see how we work with them. So yes and this is a combined both lean and agile depending on the need. So premium experience, well we want to have as well as our customer has a premium experience using our products or trucks or engines or any transport solution that we provide, we also want to have that within our IT services. So what we have focused a lot on is to really increase the digital workplace for everyone not only our employees but also our workshop employees or our mechanics or the people working with that order of this for example. So that has been a really big journey and we have also implemented service design as a tool or also method when working with new kind of services or any challenge that we are facing. And I think here is like the focus is to maybe have the premium experience but also look at the outcome like what is the value that we want to create when having a premium experience and I think the challenge is here that we can, when having only lean we know the future and we can predict a lot what the customer needs but having a disruptive world we need to more collaborate with different stakeholders within the transport industry to find out like what will the need be and I think that can be the difference when looking at our intelligence and being strong at predicting and knowing but now when we don't know and how do we collaborate to create value. I think that's really like the challenge within the premium experience. And looking again we have our house, we have the foundation for us with our core values, the customer first respect for the individual elimination of waste, integrity, determination and team spirit. And then also of course we should have principles right from me and the demand driven output together with the priorities and over that we have continuously improvements. And if you see in the middle of the house we have something called normal situation and that's something that we have worked a lot with and working at Scania we talk a lot with about what is the normal situation and how do we handle that and what are our basic when we work so we can know if we improve and that we have worked a long time with and we are maybe I'm a bit biased now but I think we are really good at that in improving our normal situation but what happens if we constantly need to challenge our normal situation and really don't know what the normal situation is and I think we have tried to have this perspective then. So when having the normal situation we are on the right hand side where we have production and we can improve our efficiency and having things predictive so we can plan and define the activities but also know when they are ending or when they are completed and here we can really take use our backbone with the lean perspective to identify value map the value flow create the flow and then establish the pull to get some value according to the customer needs but looking at the left hand side then what if we don't know we can't predict and we need to manage the uncertainty what do we do then well we can start with like setting up some goals but then try them out so I think the journey will be more empirical than maybe predictive and then end when we think we have reached our goals goals and here we can use tools as lean startup if we are testing things out that we think are new to the world like an disruptive innovation if we test things that are new to us that may be not new to the world we can use the agile toolbox with scrum for example and we can also if we meet in the middle there we can use Kanban and Kanban and like daily stays stand ups and working with improvements that's a lot of the similarities that we already have from lean so when we did our agile journey it was not that big step when setting the methods for for being agile since we had the lean interiors but then so we can lean on lean when things are clear and a bit predictive but when things are getting more complex we need to open the agile toolbox to see how we can iterate solutions and also ideas and in the middle here we can have what a lot of our engineers like and also maybe when working with hardware when things are complicated and you can actually solve them you don't need to adapt you can just solve and I think that's the most important so on the right hand side things are possible to solve but looking at left side when things are more complex you need to adapt and adjust you can't solve things you just need to follow that and I think that's something that we struggle with sometimes but our establishing tools so we can can be better at that and then of course we have chaos but that we all have lived through now I think during the pandemic and if you are good on the other things I think you can manage chaos as well quite good or if you're really motivated like people in Ukraine right now I think they struggle a lot with the chaos but have the motivation to conquer that and then tools for or tools or foundations for for managing uncertainty is design thinking and service design but also DevOps is really important and then on the right hand side we have continuously delivery and then we have tried to put this together in our organization so we have something called value creation teams and that's a team of team that deliver value and then use this basics to be able to handle the uncertainty or efficiency and I just want to show this picture it's my favorite picture but what is really order and what is chaos if you go out to the nature you will not have structured lines and things sorted everything will be dynamic and a mix of everything and I think that's also a way of working when having this complex environment to handle so so have the what is really order for us but I think the human brain prefer the chaos side where it's in lines and you have have things structured but but I think adapt your mind more to nature and see what is really order and how can we be dynamic and take help from each other to grow great next okor yes awesome teams I'm not sure if we mentioned that in the beginning but some of these things that we do are on a high Scania level and some are of course in smaller parts of the organization just to mention that Scania is we are 54,000 people working here so it's a really big company and we are situated in over 100 countries so the scaling here is quite important to understand also that we do things in all different kind of areas and at IT where we work we are 1200 persons so it is a big company and so we scale all the solutions that we have of course ok so but we can't do this without committed employees and engagement and that's why awesome teams are so important we need to have the teams in place to create this team-based organization that could can create value and we have a desired state that is servant leaders and team shaping attractive environment that engage and develop people to become awesome and we also state that we have that we want a great place to work so this we do together we are when we are servant leaders that have servant leaders that inspire and grow people we are T-shaped we experiment and learn together we have a psychological safe environment and that the prerequisites are known by everyone the possibilities with software and data and also the constraints we have around the team and the enablers as well we work really close together with the business and in many cases we also sit together or we are co-located so we work really close together and we are also organized in the way that we could that we could help each other out and sit together and work really really close and collaborating all the time and yes so just to have a little go-through about the servant leadership concept which we have at IT we are we have a manifesto that we have been working with for a time we have some KRs that we follow up and we want the leaders all the teams to have these kinds of mindsets developing people set the direction but let the team work remove impediments coach to self-leadership which is really important as well in in to building these kinds of teams that we need continuous learning and let go of control and we have had of course some challenges in creating these kinds of environments for teams to grow but this has helped a lot with this servant leadership manifesto and which is seven different steps or seven different areas that we want to improve we also have the scarner leadership model you see it where we have the vision and strategy people and team and system and flow which is things that we need to align with these are the three three areas that needs to be together they need to be in balance so these we also have aligned with the servant leadership and this is a good foundation for working with leadership as well and at our manifesto we have in the in the vision that you should dare to be leader who shapes new leaders and you can also see the in this servant leadership manifesto I don't know if you can point Carolina but you have the triangles where you see that we think that we need to change the yeah the triangles in the servant leadership where we need to change the hierarchy in the organization and flatten it so we can have the decisions not in the top but we need the decisions from everyone a lot of people in the top to take decisions so we need to have this way of thinking that everyone should be able to take their own decisions where they are and for the people who who knows best okay and then the team the team-based organization we have the teams that we will build for and for high autonomy of course and the we need a collaboration together so they can work together that's key and we have different things that we work with communities of practice learning labs big room plannings and so on so people can collaborate and meet and then also create constant learning loops to create this learning organization and also having fun and some of the challenges that we had here was going from this specialist organization when there's a lot of handoffs and with a delivery focus and turning this around to a team-based organization with focus on value creation and then we recognize that to be able to work closer together to the business and also sit together sometimes was really crucial and then this collaboration was key for us to reach this autonomy yes and this is another one of the focus area data-driven scania so having the access to the right data at your fingertips just to be able to take the right decisions is really crucial here and to be able to have this data lake where we can collect all the data and be able to take the right decisions and also have this as a self service today we have a lot of different systems that is not connected to the data lake but we are getting there and this will be a really really big change for us when we can have everything gathered so we can have the right can take the right decisions when we when we should you want to add something carolina yes and connect to that i think what we are used to is that from our lean perspective we are used to measuring what we do we are used to follow up what we do but i think the difference here is that we work much more with adapting to the change that the data provides us so we don't measure we more look at the data and see how do we need to adapt calling the data and the changes that are happening so it's not the control is much less than we have had before or the feeling of control but i think that's like the difference in being data driven is that you look at the data but also adapt to to the changes that the data imply i think that's really important to be data driven instead for measuring things yes modern digital ecosystem since we are a very big company maybe this is not ok for startups or or other smaller companies but we are struggling a lot with having different platforms and a lot of old IT systems but we want to serve as a modern IT platform where we have automation prototyping and rapid delivery that's the direction that we want to have for our deliveries but it is a bit tough i have an application that has a lot of visual basic code and is over 15 years old so transforming that it doesn't give us any rapid delivery if we continue to have that so the ambition with the modern digital ecosystem is to have modern architecture we continuously evaluate new technology and replace the old technology we also want to have like a data transaction backbone so we don't have the same data in different places and also use commodity when we don't need to customize but of course we are scania so everything is a bit special according to us ourselves and then of course we should be cloud native to increase the speed and flexibility and i think this is also connected a lot to agile because what we see is that we have had a lot of applications but now we need to think as an ecosystem because everything is connected and we also need to like the pace of changes is so much higher than it was before so i think there we really need to use the agile toolbox but of course then have the lean together with us but here we are struggling a lot but we have also come really far i think and what we did in our organization was that we looked at our modern system that we are so proud of which helps enable scania with a great success for a long time and i think the principles for the modern system is that you should have standardized interfaces same need identical solution and well balanced performance steps but maybe we are missing or it's not written like the unique customer need and how can we tailor tailor made the solutions and and we really wanted to see can we do that for our applications as well can they be tailor made but still have like standardized interfaces and identical solutions and to move towards that we have done something that we call technical fit and this is a very messy picture it's a lot of details but what we actually do is that we measure or work with data and evaluate how is our our system's well-being and what is the landscape of it so here you can see like the landscape of our systems where we have measured continuously integration test maturity we have monitoring and logging we had modular architecture infrastructure status security integration status performance status and also cold cold quality and if if the map is really really yellow or orange then we need to be aware of that the possibility to do changes and the pace of being able to doing changes is really really low and that means that our modular system is maybe not that modular so this is a way that we have adapted the modular system but try to use it within software software engineering management to also improve our ecosystem great and the next ochre that we have is the operational excellence and maybe this doesn't sound so fun but it's also really important especially today when security is a hot topic and what we want to do is that we always want to be available secure safe and sustainable and compliant and that we should keep IT services and business applications should keep Scania and our customers rolling and that has really been important during the pandemic even though we have not been able to go to our offices we have still provided our system so we could be able to sell sell our products and we also have a lot of focus on delivering green IT so we actually have like a group that are driving that and also our greening with IT to be more sustainable but I also would like to take another example from our our department on how do we do this operational excellence and also together with the ones dating the business goals and the directions so we looked at the four directions that that Scania has and we said that okay we have a need of adapt more quickly we need to deliver what the customer needs and we also need to motivate our people and this was something that we struggling with because the feeling was that we never deliver and we can't adapt and we have people that are not that motivated so we went back to our the Scania way again and looked at that and see what we could use but we also felt that there were a lot of some things missing like the normal situation what is the normal situation and how can we create awareness of that and is it output that we need or is it outcome so what we did was that we faced our challenges and as you can see we had challenges with everything we had challenges with our products we had challenges with our technology the organization the mindset the people not the people as individuals more of on how to motivate them to go the right direction or to to be the direction for what we are doing and also we had a lot of messy processes and misunderstandings and but I think the picture really describes the challenge that we had like we had islands of agile way of working but we didn't have like any scaling or any transparency between us and that was something that we wanted to improve to be more excellent in our operational journey so to increase the transparency and understanding we established like a journey management framework inspired by safe so we didn't have the safe roles and we didn't take the whole framework of safe and with journey we looked at the behaviors of our users and then we divided the organization in different type of journeys and we also did this to maybe remove the bureaucracy and also remove the responsibility from the line organization because today the line organization is really strong at Scania but as Marie mentioned before we wanted it to be more team-based and have the team to be more autonomous and driven according to what where we were heading so this was a model that we set up to be able to scale and with scaling that is more of like create understanding and awareness of the direction and then we needed to go back and then we started to say that we need to really focus on what and how principles like we need to give the direction and what goes to achieve but then the how is really steered by the teams and we still had like a lot of traditional way of have perspectives so we really needed to emphasize especially for us managers that we needed to decide on the direction and be clear with that but then let the teams decide on how to get there and not not steer that and also give the team an end to end responsibility for the business goes and also make sure that they could launch regularly and also follow up on the impact not on the tasks so to speak and again maybe this is not new for you but it's something that we struggle with a lot so we have the traditional way of thinking like we discuss initiatives or feature to release but we miss like the discussion on business value why are we providing them and then we also follow up on deliveries and talked about resources divided on different tasks and then also the prioritizations from programs and projects and I think this is something we struggle with because Skania has a very strong hardware organization where we deliver our trucks or buses and their sprints or iterations are much longer and have quite hard deadlines due to the hardware development so that's something that we struggle with but we wanted to emphasize a new approach so we set up like we call it big room planning but a discussion or a meeting where we had the whole organization set the priorities linked to business value and then also talk about the business impact for the team and also have the backlogs connected to that but also have the ambitions to keep the teams as stable as possible because if the team changes a lot then the delivery or the pace of deliveries will be much lower in the end and then also have objectives that were transparent for everyone but don't stare on the actions to get there and then of course the basics for everything is to have this team-based team-based organization and we also have like a model there but first we went to our thinking model but we felt like this doesn't help us that much so we actually maybe didn't remove it but we did our own model that we called that where we focused on what do we want to achieve the product our tasks and goals we also talked about how do you want to organize within the team and also how do we interact with each other and I think to be able to have transparency and direction and have a why this needs to be in place for the teams to be able to go towards the direction that you want to have and with these areas we have like different things or activities that we need to work on so this is some kind of mapping on what happens within the team and how do we work with those things and the blue ones are based on our leader principles but we also have taken a lot of inspiration from Victor Cesson in his team dynamics work so this is our PPP model that the team use to be able to handle the team dynamics and having this we felt like we could adapt quickly we delivered much more of what the customer needed and we also could have more motivated people and then to be emphasized the how is that the ambitions was to get more autonomy and alignment and talk about the problem what what do we need to solve not how do we need to solve it that was up to the teams over to you Marie yes for a little summary and maybe we can just go through the different areas we have so when scaling for example we have some challenges we focus on process and not team and people enabling structures are not in place for example the decision structure we have the same bureaucracy the hierarchical levels that we need to work on and in corporate learning and innovation in our daily work is is really hard it's separate islands and we have still the structural and cultural misfit when the system is not tailored to be agile yet so we need a lot of we need a lot of collaboration with different areas to actually to create these enabling structures instead to tweak the system to be able to work in a new way so the system is really the system change is really really necessary here and we need also to work really close with all the department that are creating these kinds of structure for example finance or HR or other areas within the organization we see we have this kind of structure and cultural misfits in the organization but having this lean foundation in the organization and have it within our genes with the continuous improvement and then adding on the agile mindset and then the tools to fit this added way of thinking is is really a good a good match only if we we know when to use what want to add anything Carolina I did an extra picture I just want to say that from my perspective and working in different organizations here at Scania we started for like six years ago with doing agile like changing priorities using the agile methods and having iterations but I think we are there so we are starting to be agile instead for just doing agile and together with our foundation the house I think it's really strong tools to be able to be successful and also have people being leading themselves instead for having a lot of managers telling everyone to do some that's something that I'm really proud of and feel like we are and since we work at Scania we always look for deviations and improvements so I'm like have that in my backbone so I won't say that we are good but we are getting better and better at combining this and that I'm proud of and then we can also see that the magic happens yes and that was everything I hope you're still awake no great I think this was very interesting learning and I really liked your last slide there but we have some questions probably we have a few in the in the chat and people can also ask questions I can read one it's about servant leadership I'm really curious about servant leadership how did you implement the new leadership philosophy that was really quite fun journey actually it was we have been we had been working with the servant leadership or agile we were working with agile methods for a while at Scania IT and the management team actually thought that we were not gaining what we wanted to to gain with the agile so they wanted to change the or see what we needed to do with the leadership so they sent out questionnaire actually to the whole organization asking for help how can you help us with what the next kind of leadership what what capability capabilities do we need so you could actually apply to this in the organization and they created a group which worked with this for a while and what they came up with was that the people in the organization didn't feel that they could actually have they have a say in what in things that matters to them I mean taking the decisions and so on they were not involved in the decisions so these were something that created this kind of what I say the servant leadership manifesto that we have today to have this kind of engagement and to make people accountable and and autonomy and let them decide about things that matters so they actually this group actually provided them with the suggestion of the servant leadership and we started to create that and now it's actually within the the IT strategy and we follow it up every quarter as an OKR so we measure the servant leadership level in the organization so it's it's been a really great journey actually and I can also add from a manager perspective that I think it's really important that the managers are aware and also want to adapt and change because your role will not be as it has been you have to be much more open than maybe not in control and maybe also I think be aware of that maybe the manager will be less important when having the servant leadership and it's actually about letting people grow and and lead themselves and help each other so I think that's like an important journey to do as well and and I also think in the beginning we heard a lot like well if it's servant leadership I will just back off and let everybody do what they want and that's not servant leadership the servant leadership is a lot to be to adapt to the situation and help your teams or team members in what they need without maybe point out what to do so it's really important to adapt your leadership and maybe be assertive and needed but also step back when you don't need to be assertive and don't have like the manager position more be a leader and coach when needed and that is a challenge I think for a lot since we are maybe competitive people that wants to be the best then that can be a challenge to like step back yeah we also have this in the company I think that this is the way we work with we work with management maybe instead of leadership in some areas and and this is a way of thinking and acting and this is something that we need to help it's a mindset shift that we need help with it's hard to do it alone so we took a lot of help in this journey adult people and pia maria was was helping us a lot and we we also or now when we are we are still we're still on a journey of course so we still have these kinds of trainings in the organization the other people trainings and they are really really helping us getting to the next stage the next level of the servant leadership great thank you do you still have the weekly dependency the bottleneck pulse meetings across scania it on the pm management level no we don't have our project organization anymore we focus on team a team-based organization so no great how do you cope with the times so challenges for teamwork across 100 countries I think scania has had the perspective of always have a lot of freedom for our dealer and distributors so I think we have the benefit but it can also be a challenge that we have divided work according to the time zones we don't have that many distributed teams across cross time zones but I know that the pios for example the product owners they struggle sometimes because shinies are most valuable strategic area and area to grow in and that means that they have to work china hours so no great solution for that please let us know if you have a better one or a good one but it is a struggle and then we have a questions have the organization been flattened out during the six years as a result of agile I think let's say not the whole scania we still have a quite strong line management within the product development or like our distributor and and dealers are still maybe in the lean lean world and have not that agile but I think within it yes but we also need to meet them the other parts of scania so sometimes I know that I have to go in and play the manager for a bit just to help my team but to answer for the whole scania I say no and maybe our export made to be educated much more in how to be agile I think that's a big and also that we are owned by Volkswagen really makes the manager roll strong sometimes and it's also hard when you for a big part of the of scania we are now doing safe implementation or safe inspired implementations and that will be of course hard to do I mean we do it in a really big scale so it's hard to do that and at the same time work for the organization I think that will be in the next step so finding out what we need in in terms of how we work with this new structure I think will help us a lot to to flatten the organization because we don't we don't need all the levels then but still still now it's it's like a lot like before I think great you were talking about separate islands working agile but not the whole organization do you have any suggestions of how to get these agile islands to become an agile organization I think setting like the augers that we have shown is a good way but also a lot about implementing servant leadership and as a start and then also like don't force the whole organization to transform at the same time like find good example and improve that and educate educate educate and also be aware of that you start with a doing but then your mind has to shift so it's it's like start with a doing but then see you really have to transform to being and I think that's it's a big challenge but look at the good examples try to gain gain from that and don't do everything at the same times because then you will get stuck stuck and and maybe also like your r&d organization has done they added safe yes to be able to have some kind of security to do a transformation so yeah as carolina said the best thing is to start small with small experiments and do it locally so you can you can see how it works but it's also all about the mindset that as you as a manager or a leader another question how is the servant leadership working globally we can find it challenging in some cultures I think a bit the same answer here find have your manifesto and talk about that a lot educate and maybe also I have that that with my team members from other cultures that I measure them on how servant they are because in some cultures there it may be more important to have like an important role or be a manager and have power but if you start measuring on how servant are you maybe that can shift the mind on that person but of course it is a challenge and we also have struggles sometimes but I think like it needs to be a commit from the whole organization that we it is servant leadership that we want to have and then all managers or leaders need to be aware of that and also help each other when coming from other cultures right we have a follow-up question so how do you manage the bottlenecks across teams it is a struggle I won't lie I know that maybe my team member Philippe is here and he is working a lot with our infrastructure that has a lot of bottlenecks from our perspective but I think what we did that's why we implemented this kind of journey journey framework to be able to like visualize the direction and also the objectives on where we are heading but then also I think we have worked a lot in like trying to build networks like competence networks and network over the organization and try to enable that to help people just reach out the hand or ping you on teams so that's that's I think that is what we do networks and also being very transparent and clear with with the objectives for everyone then one more question what is the challenge in scaling in in Scania everything I think do we need to scale or why do we need to scale I think that's important not just to do it yeah but also as the the organization is not yet fit for this kind of work so we actually need to fit the organization to work like this and and I think that's the hard part because scaling when the organization is not really set yet then then it's really really hard but we're doing it in parallel so hopefully we will meet they will meet somewhere but scaling without autonomous team then then what are you actually scaling yeah or just adding a framework so yes that can be good to think about yeah the team and the leadership are the most important thing to start with to have that in place yeah I agree and one last question you mentioned that continuous learning is important how does your learning and development team support you in the journey we have a big organization working with with learning our academy and they are really I think in the forefront what when it comes to to learning and helping us with the the tools for it so having linked in learning and and be able to to just connect and have the learning whenever you want to on demand so I think that's that's good even though they might be a little bit also connecting with with agile and this way of working but I forgot what to say Karolina help me out yeah but I can also say that don't rely on your learning and development team to support you like what can you do yourself we have worked a lot with networks we are if you have somebody that's really good in something let that person coach the other ones to to grow so so I think like start with yourself and then see what you need from them because they are also in like a complex environment it's not as it was before and I see that a lot of my teams they do learnings through the retro study learnings through each other they have like creative Fridays where they do learnings together so maybe like maybe a learning and development team is more of providing tools yeah and and also what we see in the organization is that we might not have that the time for learning so that I think is a big challenge that we put it on the on the map and as Karolina said it's much easier in an agile team or working with team-based organization because then it's built in within our within our ways of working but other struggles with the struggle with having this kind of time for learning even though we have our academy provides us with everything we need then it's hard to actually take the time okay and I think we will need to round up there I just want to say thank you to Marie and Karolina it's been a really interesting story you have told and if you see in the chat a lot of positive feedback also so I think we will round up here today and say thank you to everyone for joining us and thank you everyone for listening thank you thanks bye bye bye