 And thank you. We're going to invite Joseph up back on the stage, and we're going to do some questions and maybe some answers. Great job. Come join me in my office. I also have no idea how the Slido thing is going to work. And this is an experiment. It's much like being at this venue is an experiment, one we might not continue. But OK, we've got this slide. Yeah, this is actually not the slide. This is something else. We can't see that thingy where we see all the questions. And so this is here so we can see it. Oh, cool. Sorry, I'm just doing housekeeping while you all are watching. Yes, so you can scan this QR code or go to Slido.com and put in that number with the hash slash pound or no. Anyone? You got it. You can figure it out. I believe in you. It's kind of cool history that we have 1770 or 776. Oh, yeah. It's 1776. Oh, it is 1776, yeah. And I think you can also vote on the questions. So part of what we were trying to do with this was allow people like whatever. So this is now, I won't feel bad if you all look at your phones right now. Let's see how good this Wi-Fi is. And kind of vote up the questions because that way one thing we're experiencing with this is it's not just who gets to the mic first, like we're trying to hear what most of you would like to know. OK, let's see. If this gets to 10 votes, I'll answer it. Oh, 13. OK, OK. It's also here if you would like to see it. So first question is do you still blame Nathan? We're going to have to explain this one. Andrew Nathan, please stand up. Should I blame you for this question? This is a fun double entendre as well because I don't know. This could have the same command, but at SVM you could write SVM blame and see who's responsible or the last person who committed a particular line of code. And it's kind of fun to see like, oh, where did this function come from? And the most humbling thing as a developer is when you do that, and it's your own name that shows up. Who wrote this? Oh, me. I still have a number of lines in the WordPress code base as well, which is both exciting and a little scary. But we no longer blame Nathan for things. And in fact, I would generally like to announce a jubilee of blame. I've just heard a few in some conversations or something. Like, oh, I heard you don't like this company, or WordPress doesn't like this or that. And I would just like officially for 2023 to reset all of that to neutral. So if you think I like something or don't like something, let's reset that to zero and just build from scratch because we're not going to make it another 20 years. We're carrying around a lot of baggage, right? So. This is one of my favorite uses of the word jubilee, and most of the time no one knows what I'm talking about. So maybe it's just me and you on this stage that no one were talking about. Yeah, so look it up. Should we go by, like, top voted one, or how do you want to do this? However you want to choose. You want to take this top one? So what is the greatest existential threat to WordPress? Sure. Or actually any of these four you want to do. OK. I can take what is the greatest existential threat to WordPress. So sorry, I'm trying to figure out which hat to have on. Do I have my admin operations hat? Or do I have my WordPress community hat? OK, so here's the thing. The greatest threat to WordPress as a community is always whether or not we can still get together and collaborate in an effective way because so much of our community is built on the way we get together and the way we collaborate. I really loved at the community summit how we saw people talking through really contentious conversations and still respecting one another as people, for the most part, and really trying to address the root issue as opposed to resorting to just kind of general ad hoc attacks on each other. And the way that we're coming back together post-COVID and the way that we are kind of looking at the future of our event series, the event series does so much work on behalf of this project. I've said it a couple of times, there's a podcast somewhere if someone wants to share it so other people know what I'm talking about. But it does like 17 different jobs on its own, these event series. It brings people into the project and it teaches them how to use WordPress. It teaches them how to work with each other, how to work remotely, how to work online. There does so many things. And so I think that a little bit the way that we are at 50% reactivation of our meetup groups and I really, really encourage everyone to like, if you don't know what a meetup group is or if your local meetup group is just not meeting and you can't figure out who's helping them meet, get out there and do something about it because this is the lifeblood of what makes this project work and what makes open source work. And so that to my mind is the greatest existential threat to WordPress, especially in the current climate that we're in. Yeah, thank you. What I like about that is the greatest threat I don't think is any competitor, it's ourselves. Which is exactly what you just said. Yeah. I'll jump to a little easier one that we could go quickly. A book you enjoyed recently, I'll name two. Ken Luz, Paper Menagerie, one of my favorites all time. He was the speaker this morning, if you weren't here, which I can tell a lot of you weren't. Check out that video as soon as it's up. And of course you can always cheat by going to live stream and rewinding. Really special talk. And a more recent one. And actually I thought about Kim here as a speaker, maybe we'll do it at future work camp, is Will Godera, I think his name is he pronounced, called Unreasonable Hospitality. And the reason I thought that could be interesting to bring in to the WordPress community is just like we all do service to our customers, to our clients, to each other, to the WordPress users. And it's a book about, he's one of the sort of two people along with Daniel Hume behind Eleven Madison Park, which kind of, it's the story of how they rose from kind of like a brassery in New York that not a lot of people knew about. So literally being the number one restaurant in the world on the 50 top restaurants list. And so, and they did that, not just through Amazing Food, but also Amazing Hospitality. And one of the first to really innovate on that. And I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned for the WordPress community. Any books you want to throw on there? So I'm in the middle of a book right now. I have been feeling like I was missing reading, but I've been in a reading rut. And so if anyone has books to recommend, I got out of my reading rut on accident. I was going through my library app and accidentally checked a book out. So I'm reading it. And it's, whoopsie. It's called Eleanor Allafant. Allafant is completely fine, something. It's, yeah, yes. And it starts out in a kind of dark place, but also talks about like the power of community and how one or two people helping someone can bring them together, pass things that they're struggling with. I'm only about 40% of the way through, but it's nice. It was a nice accidental check out of my book. Cool. Yeah. If you have recommendations, you can just share somehow. Yeah. Okay, number one here from Jess. What does the future of WordPress look like if search engines move from links to AI-generated responses? I think about this all the time. Yeah. You know, I've been spending a lot more time in San Francisco. Been talking to a lot of the AI companies, open AI, I've read Journey, who else, Anthropic, like basically embedding really deeply there. Cause I, again, I think it's the future. I told you nine days before chat TBT came out to release, pay attention to AI. The rest of the world since that release, that was kind of the, what would you call that moment when everyone started paying attention to something? Like the break, maybe the Netscape moment or something. The panic, the excitement. Yeah. I'm just saying words that you know. I like it. So one thing that I'll say from all of those conversations is that the folks making this, although these initial versions do kind of like, again, like, it's just giving the whole answer. There's no reason to visit the site. It's interesting to see the experiments on things like Microsoft's part, where they're trying to do attribution a lot better. And it's very imperfect now, but I can tell you that every single one of these companies is very much thinking about both how they attribute and then maybe also how they do like micropayments or something like that. So like places where content came from or creators and also how they can enable creators to like, you know, create more and train models on your own stuff. Kind of like what a can attempt to do the Ken bot. It's way better now. And so how that could be like a co-pilot or like an assistant editor for you or something like that available on demand. So I think the future of WordPress is actually more exciting than ever because the places where you're referred to or the visit or being an authority about these things, something that becomes cited or maybe even directed to, perhaps even a future of WordPress looks like where we're providing the API. So that's, let's say you asked a question to chat GBT, it could call out to your website to run an additional query to maybe get results for items in your store or something like that. So I think there's actually gonna be a lot of integrations and I don't know if it was obvious from that 100 year thing but I think having your own domain is really important and we should all be thinking about like what are homes on the web look like feel like and also like that sort of search for differentiation. Like it was already a little bit on the social networks. I think when people are in like chat boxes all day that's not the final interface for these things and what's it gonna look like when maybe you talk to something but then it takes you in a browser directly to something. So maybe it's not like you're in a chat box or it's just like a little Siri like icon that pops up on your desktop or something. So I think that might be one of the models but again, I wouldn't try to predict anything in AI more than like two months in advance and even then you feel a little like who knows what's gonna happen. Well too much. Yeah. Let's see. When these are anonymous I can't tell who's asking. I realize that's the point. Unless is there someone named anonymous here? I know. Hi, nice to finally meet you. Oh, okay. And what was your name? Blake. Blake asked the accessibility standards question. We can skip to that one. Can we ensure that more Gutenberg developers are aware of accessibility standards? Well, talk to them, they're here. It's a little bit of a tricky question because it assumes they don't know about accessibility standards and I would actually argue that they care about it quite a bit. Did you have a follow-up there? Sure. Let me try to repeat that because people can't hear you. We have no mics here. So let me try to, is that all right if I try summarize? So the accessibility team that met at the contributor today felt like the Gutenberg developers were maybe thinking about accessibility later on in the process and tickets were being created and testing after our future was developed and not early enough. I will say again that your question assumes that they're not doing this. So it's a little bit like, when did you stop being your wife type question? And on behalf of the Gutenberg developers, I will say they deeply care about accessibility. They can name to you all the standards and they're still gonna mess it up. And so there will always be a process. So I would say if there's certain things like you literally believe they don't know about WCAG 2.1 or something like that, like let's do a session and get together and talk to them or maybe like just reach out to the people who you feel like are doing a bad job at this and say, hey, can we do a Zoom about like X, Y, Z? And everyone always wants to learn. I will say that coming at it from like a, why are you doing this wrong is probably not the best place to start. Or why don't you care about this? Is not a good place to start. I would start maybe a little bit more with like, hey, I'm seeing the same kind of ticket come up over and over again. Like how can we maybe get to this earlier or someplace like that? So yeah. That was Gutenberg developers are great. And we just want to make sure you keep getting greater. The other thing you do is become a Gutenberg developer. Yeah. So, you know, like I encourage everyone to learn JavaScript deeply. I think we're seven years into that now. And so like, if you have a background or passion for an area, whether it's design, accessibility, usability, testing, like I'd say learn a bit of JavaScript, you can actually get involved with these things directly, which is pretty exciting. All right, next up. Okay, yep. That one. Can you speak more about where you see the design of the WP Admin dashboard going? Now we take this one? Yeah. There are some posts out about it. There are some posts and will those be on MakeCore? Those are on make.wordpress.org slash I believe design. Yep, that's a yes on design. Slash design. You can leave out the I believe. Correct. No, no. For me, it's really about, what I'm actually thinking about most in the admin is how much knowledge it presupposes. So we have amazing documentation and tutorials and learn and everything like that. But it's always someplace else. It relies on someone clicking on the help thing or knowing to go to the documentation or something like that. And there's so many opportunities to be in line with the interface. Just a few extra words could be really, really powerful or thinking about how we name things. So I had a great conversation with Rich as we were going through the slides here. And they're like, okay, this is called behaviors. You know, what does that mean? A behavior is like, when I think of that word, what do I think of? Like I think of maybe like a kid getting in the trouble at school or, and then you go into that, it says default, no behavior, and then light box. Each of those, like what does that mean if you don't know what it means? Even the word light box is kind of a jargon. It's terminology. As I was going through the slide, I made sure to like try to explain what a light box was. So if you didn't know, you would kind of know that means like, oh, a little inline thing where you click and it pops up without going to another page. So if that's what we're doing when we teach WordPress to someone, can we just say that in the original name of it? And can we put some of that inline? The other place I've been thinking about this a lot that I'm excited to work on. So personally, I'm thinking a ton about media and then actually comment moderation, because I realized that like, spam is starting to get pretty good. I think I got my first LLM spam. Maybe it was written by those spam cans in the art gallery. I don't know. But it was a really good comment that was totally contextual. It's my blog post and a little unusually long. It's like four paragraphs. And you know, from an IP address, I'd never got anything from before. I'd never got a comment from this person. And then of course a website that was a bit spammy. And so, but like how easy would it be if I was brand new to blogging to not really realize that what this was was an automated comment that was just trying to get a back link to the website. And so like what could we do to show that comment, to maybe show the reputation of the website and to like say maybe, hey, sometimes people leave comments just to get links. So like look at this with a second eye or like, you know, see if they have a gravatar radar or something like that. Like what's different things we could teach them. So that particular thing, like how to get help information into the dashboard in better places for people who are in current need of help as opposed to like trying to figure it out in a handbook came up in the community summit quite a bit. And there were a lot of people that were very interested in helping to kind of research that, help us get that figured out. I think that's a great thing to include in that redesign, yeah. Cool. I heard a yes. Thank you, whoever you are. So think about that as well as y'all go through the WordPress interface, try to look at it with a beginner's mind and ask yourself or when you're teaching other people WordPress which I hope you're doing frequently, like what words do you find yourself using or explaining things? And actually a really cool way that anyone can contribute, right? Because this kind of like what to call things or what to name things is as who said assignment one of the two hard things in computer science. Naming things, caching and off by one errors. Well, like what can we do around that? So, cool. LMS question, long-term planning is great and the LMS improvements will be awesome. How much support can we get behind a project like the Fields API, which is making progress? Do you even work on the Fields API at the contributor day? We didn't have anything around it? I saw a hand and a half, okay. So maybe that's also something, WordCamp Asia is coming up and there's also other WordCamps for contributor days. So we could do like a little table on that or something. I have to admit, I don't have seen the latest with Field API so it's making progress. I'm not aware of the latest, latest. This is, as you might have seen, like Dribble is actually exploring Gutenberg and so it might be actually really cool Dribble adopts Gutenberg, which I think is right now the best thing about WordPress. So it's also looking like, what's the best thing about Dribble we could adopt? And they have like some awesome custom, they call it CCK, custom content, KIT, I think. They call it Fields API. They call it Fields API? Oh, in Dribble it's called Fields API now. Did it used to be called CCK? Oh, it did, okay, all right. I'm just old school. I think my Dribble or originally drop.org user number is like in the hundreds or something. It was very early on the Dribble front. It actually predates WordPress by a couple of years. So I'll check that out. I'm gonna tell you a secret because it's a secret to us because we can't see what's in here. There are 87 questions in this queue. Oh, we don't have that much time left. We have 35 minutes. We are not fast question answerers, Matt and I. Let's try to end about five. Okay. Yeah, so let's call it 15 minutes. Just because we've been sitting for a while. I also don't know when I got that text. So it could have been. Oh, we're ending it fine. You wanna read this top one? Sure, advice for developers on smaller agency teams that are having trouble keeping up. I have a top down suggestion and a bottom up suggestion. The top up, top down suggestion is smaller agencies why not have a host your own learning day inside your teams, like inside your company? I know that if it's like three or four people it feels kind of weird, but also like that's the best number of people to learn with. You don't have to feel too stupid because you're not around 150 people in the internet. And yeah, you can learn a lot by just like puzzling through problems together. But then the bottom up suggestion is, yeah, go over to learn.wordpress.org. That is the newest extension of the training team in the WordPress project. And there is a lot of stuff that is in small chunks. And so you can see like little bits as you go as you need them, just like, I don't know. I wanna call them like tidbits, morsels of education because I think I'm hungry. But yeah, that's what I would suggest. I know it's hard to keep up with all of it all the time though, yeah. I'm gonna suggest a really awesome podcast too. Hosted by someone here on stage with me. Oh, hello everybody and welcome to the WordPress briefing. Weekly podcast, you can subscribe to it and the podcast, which is open source or your favorite pod catcher. And it's on WordPress.org slash news as well. Yep, slash news slash podcast. And I have listened to, I believe every single episode. Oh wow. They're short, they're sweet, you get some Josepha and it's a good way I think to keep up with what's going on in the WordPress world. That's true, that's true. Thank you Amy who asked that question. Next up we have awesome Paul. Good to differentiate from all the other Pauls I guess. Actually I think all the Pauls in this room are awesome. If you were starting all over with WordPress and still starting where you did, what would you do differently? The number one thing I would do differently is change the column name of ID in the post table. That's quite a number one, all right. It's capitalized. It's also just ID, it should be post underscore ID which is the convention we took with naming future column names. I actually think maybe our migration stuff is good enough that we could change this now and we've had the database abstraction layers for a while but man that drives me crazy. I love a good column table structure. I still love SQL. Something I originally learned thanks to my sister here, Charlene. She's a professional genealogist but was doing genealogy research more than 20 years ago. Before WordPress started and before there was really awesome stuff you could upload your genealogy files to and things. We made a website, Mullenwig.com, still up there that I was trying to post all her genealogy research. It turns out a great way to learn about relational databases is relational family trees. You can kind of see me learning SQL on there because it's like here's a page of a person and then here's everyone else with the first name, Louis and everyone else born in 1959 and everyone else like sort of different pivoting and stuff. So I think this is a skill actually that would be a good sort of thing. I feel like some newer developers aren't as familiar with some basics of SQL and optimization, learning how to use its plain queries and stuff. So maybe a good thing if you haven't looked at that in a while to loop back to. I wasn't there when it started but I would like to add one that I would start. I would start doing the word camps earlier. Ah. I think that the thing that really differentiates our project from everybody else and sets us apart is this community and that is when that all really had an opportunity to bring in non-developers and design and all the things and so I would, I know you did the first one ever so I'm saying please do this back to future you and so yes, that's my answer. It was pretty early 2006. It was pretty early. If you want to see some of the story of that check out my blog, ma.tt. I posted a blog post a few days ago called I love word camps because I do and that's some of my favorite days of the year and a little bit of the story about how word camp got started, the inspiration for the name, everything. So if you want to get some little tidbits of history check that out. As you're choosing the next one I'm going to tell everyone don't worry, we're going to answer these questions later. Oh yeah, the ones we don't get to now we'll put online, right? Yes, as always. Cool. You all read this one, the Darren one? Yes, hey Matt. As you think of the longevity of WordPress what is your succession plan for your leadership and vision in the project from Darren? Thank you Darren. Yeah. My vision is it outlasting me for sure. Someone replied it was morbid but you might have seen actually one thing that as our community has gone longer and longer we deal with all parts of life. We have new babies born, we have people who were babies now start to contribute to WordPress. We have kids camps. We also have some people who we've lost and we now have a page at WordPress.org slash remembers. So WordPress.org remembers to honor those people who were members of the community, members of people who contributed, who organized things, who were really part of this tribe of people who choose to care about the mission of WordPress. A place where we can have their name link to their website, link to their profile, tell a little bit about them. And when we posted this I said, I'm going to be on this page someday. So I was like, oh Matt but I actually meant it in a really positive way and that I hope that hopefully not soon but that someday this page is going to far outlive me and be something that when we designed the page we actually thought, okay how do we make this something that can be around for many decades to come. So how I think about it is much how we approach this long-term thinking. So like what are, what's really key to, what's the magic that makes WordPress work? That's right. What are structures that are really conducive to iteration? What are structures that get us kind of wound around our axle sometimes? What does good leadership look like? Where do we mess it up? Sometimes when we try new things where do we, where has it gone really well? And that's all I've got for it so far. Great. Another AI question for you. Do you want to do a not AI question? We can do it. Well, yeah, let's see. Any plans? Big more, do you have any more relational? Yeah, we can go through some of these quickly. Any plans to utilize or create prototyping tools such as Big More or Paint Pot in order to get from the design tool straight to WordPress? I actually think I'm not familiar with Paint Pot so this is my first time hearing about that. I'll check it out. Figma is really cool. I think just got bought by Adobe. Priority tool, but really, really effective. We've been using it a lot. I have seen some like Figma to Gutenberg translators. I think that's gonna be a very cool area. And if we don't, maybe we should have like an importer or a canonical plugin for that in the future because I think that is really kind of interesting. I also think one thing that's really cool, particularly as we get these collaboration features in Gutenberg is you might be able to do some of the stuff directly in Gutenberg which would be really interesting and really cool as well. So right now Figma is, in my experience, one of the best around this collaborative design editing and you can bring design systems out of the things. But when you can be kind of closer to the code and the CSS and everything, like, you don't need a Figma representation of your design system or a way to translate that into code if you're just able to do it all with the blocks of Gutenberg. So that's how I think about it. Cool, thank you for that question. You wanna read the next one? Do you plan to do anything about making WordPress SQL databases more relational? Sorry, it moved. Have different tables for different post types in the near future? No. Nailed it, next question. A longer answer is something like the Fields API or other ways of leveraging, particularly as like new versions of my SQL or MariaDB or maybe even canonical plugins for things like elastic search, allow different types of querying. When you think about it, most WordPress databases are not that big. I also think that for plugins that are doing more interesting things, like WooCommerce is moving to the high performance order tables or order system, order, what's the S stand for? Order storage, which is basically like a custom table for orders. There might be data models which are good to move out of the post sort of structure, but it's easy to go over to a table there, all of a sudden you're doing different, what happens to comments? What happens to post meta? What happens to all the other things that are built on the post? And posts can actually scale to tens of millions, sometimes hundreds of millions. So a lot of good stuff fits in there and it's really about to me the usage model for where you should move it out. This one's good for you, so I'll read it if you want to kick off on it. When we talk about diversity, what about language diversity? We have events in big community outside of the English language. Are there any efforts to improve this? Yes, immediately. So I agree that we need to start having more word camps, meetups, all the things in languages outside of English. Fortunately, we currently are doing the, hate to say it, next generation exploration. Oh, what's the house of next generation thing? It's Star Trek. Anyone want to sing Star Trek real fast? Oh, duh duh duh duh, yeah, there we go. There we go, yeah. So there is an exploration going on about that right now and I do absolutely think that we have space for language centric word camps. We had, I think one, maybe two during the pandemic and they were really well received, they were really well attended and I think that we absolutely need more of those. And so yeah, I think that we need them and there is currently a discussion happening to advocate for those and I agree, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Nice that we started with a yes after a no answer. Should future word camps have more talks on business and marketing? Do you want to one, two, three it and see if we agree? Sure. One, two, three, yes. Maybe. Oh. Oh. They were all sitting there. Yes, propose one. So please don't think that there is like people who are speakers at word camps and people who aren't. We are all potential word camp speakers and each one of you has something interesting to say. Each one of you has a story and I'm sure many of you have beautiful stories about business and marketing. Propose that as a talk. I'd love to see more of it in the future. That was a five minute timer, noise for us. Cool. From Jonathan, how can we attract, I'll read this new audience, this one. How can we attract more experts from tangentially related disciplines to contribute and become more involved and making word press better? Tangentially related as opposed to the things that it's actually related. What do you mean tangentially? Oh, I see, I see, I see. Yeah, word press as a project and you've said this for years, we have a lot of difficulty getting outside of ourselves. We really love being in here. It's really welcoming. Everyone's super nice. We really want everyone to know how to do everything easily and well and with us. And so it's very difficult to get outside of our bubbles. And so we do, I think, lose a lot of that really smart kind of opportunity from people that are in the Drupal community. Although I know that we have like five of you with us. Thank you, including Abby. Yeah. And so yeah, I think taking our knowledge that we have from the word press project, whether it's PHP, JavaScript, our success with Gutenberg and taking it out into other communities is a really great way to do that because they don't know how to find us either. And so if we go to them, that's a great way to do it. Yeah, and something I'll personally try to contribute here and you saw some experiments with it at this WordCamp US was having both Ken Lutox and Simon Willisons. Simon being maybe the first, maybe last speaker that doesn't run WordPress for his website yet. He has a custom CMS on it, it's pretty cool. But someday, maybe, but maybe 10 years from now, we'll be around. Don't worry. That also on my part, I do a lot of reading, a lot of spending time in other communities and I will try my best to try to bring in some speakers from outside into some of these flagship events. US is probably the easiest, but I'll think about Asia and Europe as well, to see if we can bring those with different perspectives whether they're tangentially related or not. Great. What is the biggest lesson you've learned in your professional lives over the past two years to the two of us? 10 years, yeah. Heart? Oh, sorry, past 10 years, what'd I say? Two years? My bad. I'm gonna start with an answer so you can think. Yeah. All right. One of the things that did not come naturally to me when I started learning, when I started leading was learning how to keep people with me and with the project that we were working on when we were doing things that were very hard. And fortunately, by the time we got to Gutenberg, I kind of had an idea because that was very hard for the community. And so I have learned not necessarily like how to prevent all of the problems or all the crises, but certainly how to, when you encounter them, because we can't predict the future, what to do when you get there. And it was really basic stuff when I started. It was things like thank people when you find that they're in a really tough time with you, when you are there helping with the tough time, like be clearly there, like say, I'm here, I'm helping. I don't know if I can help, but I'm here to try. And the third thing that was really clear to me later was that, especially when I'm the one who created the problem, because I do that sometimes, I have really big ideas. And then I'm like, hey, developers, can we make zebras out of WordPress? And they're like, yee-jee. Yeah. They promise a lot of stuff to me, I think, that maybe is not the best. But when I do come to people with a problem that I absolutely am not capable of having a solution for, I make a lot of effort to be available as early as possible so that they have an opportunity to ask me all the questions so they can understand it well enough to make their own autonomous choices as best they can. And that's it, like just be clearly there and doing the thing. That's the thing that was the hardest for me to learn was how to help people through difficult times, and especially when I was the one creating the difficult time, because then I just felt bad about it. So, yeah. I think my answer is actually kind of related to that, maybe inspired by that. Around the importance of communication. And for me, that was, I think it's Frank Luntz who says it's not what you say, it's what people hear. Yes, it's what they receive. And so the importance of like, if someone doesn't understand you, the onus is on you to think about how you communicated it and go back to that. Studying things like nonviolent communication. And also I'll say like, so much of communicating is about listening. And I've been doing a lot of work and listening in the past 10 years that I think has been really renewative in terms of like, understanding better what the needs of y'all, sort of having a pulse on the community a bit. And if you haven't tried meditation, recommend it as great apps like Calm or Waking Up I think by Sam Harris. Like there's a lot of really good ones. It's kind of nice because you don't actually need anything. You can read a blog post about it or book or go to a retreat. There's a million different ways to do it. But all of them I find are great for creating that awareness that allows you to both connect with your thoughts and truly be present and listen to someone else in a way that's really important for communication. So, yeah, maybe I'll summarize it. He'll tear is a try meditation. I think that was our last question. Cause I think you have some thank yous and goodbyes over on that slide. Oh, awesome. All right. Well, thank you, Josepha. Thank you all for the great questions. Don't go far. He's saying things.