 First, hear about WebAssembly. Personally, I started in the early days with Adzim.js. I actually came from the website of the world. And I wanted to create a data visualization library that ran really well on the web, taking stuff that was running and many other portable devices and was part of the portability story. But I'm super interested in you, because you guys have been following tech for a really long time. I want to start with Renee. Sure. Yeah, I was actually probably a little later in the game, but it was actually Solomon's tweet, which is the now famous tweet. And basically, he was saying something like Docker wouldn't have existed. And so obviously, from an investor's point of view, if the founder of Docker is comparing a new technology to Docker and saying it could be equally big, it was something I knew we had to understand really deeply. So that's really starting from the server side. Yeah, yeah. And then I went back and then did the client side. And then I need to talk deeper into the mic. Sorry, I'm new to this. Michael? Yes, sure. So I heard the term, but I didn't really sort of dig into it until I shared a cab with a VC at KubeCon in Valencia. And that's really quite late to the scene. But from digging in further, I was really impressed. And I realized I really had to see what's happening, because this was really hot. So that's really what it really took off for me, I have to say. Can you share who you were with in the cab? Do you know, I wish I had taken his card. Oh, it's a mystery person. Yes, indeed. Yeah, and so this was also from the server side, basically. Well, he was basically asking me what's happening with Wazem and who are the hot companies. And there was another analyst in the cab, so there was the three of us. This just died. And so yeah, he was trying to pick our brains. But I was learning. OK, very cool. Alex, how about you? I was just looking to see when we wrote our first story about WebAssembly. And it's dated November 7, 2017. And we come across new stuff all the time. And so we'll pick up on something very, very new, very early. But really, really didn't start writing about it to any extent until 2020, 2021, and accelerated. And I think by now, 2022, and into 2023 and 24, 2021, we'll really push this topic. But back in 2017, it was Joe Jackson, our editor-in-chief, wrote about the dream of WebAssembly. Are you ready for the WebAssembly Revolution? That was 2017. He had heard about it from J-Films, senior software engineer who was at Netflix at the time. I don't know where he is now, but that was at the all things open conference. OK, so that kind of leads me perfectly into my next set of questions. WebAssembly, is it a fad or is it hype? Or is it the future? Is it going to revolutionize the technology space? You know where I stand on this. So I'm a little biased. Be careful what you say, because I am standing next to you. No, I really want to hear. Renee, I saw you doing your pre-work. This is very similar to another question that was already asked and that you threw back at some of the folks from Docker. So I'll start with you. Yeah, and I can just answer the Docker question, too. I'm not sure I have the answer, but one thing that we spent a lot of time looking at was could WebAssembly be the next primitive, meaning could it be really similar to containers? And we saw a few similarities. I'd say one container succeeded because of the microservices shift, so we looked for big platform shifts. And what we saw happening alongside with WebAssembly is the shift to edge computing. So whether that's IoT or things like Cloudflare and Fastly. So we saw this new shift, and so we thought, OK, there's this new replatforming happening. Certainly it won't be as big as the cloud, but we do believe things are shifting to the edge. And so WebAssembly could be a core primitive. I think containers and Docker also had a lot of big companies backing them. I'd say not exactly Docker, but Google was pushing Kubernetes. And I think similarly, Wasm has a lot of big companies that are really interested in it with the bytecode alliance. And I think sometimes if they're just enough smart people who really care about a technology, it tends to succeed. And then the third thing is I just don't think it's always either or. And I think Matt Butcher had said this to me. But when containers were coming out, people thought VMs were dead, and that it was either or. And that didn't happen. In fact, both became bigger. And so we're expecting something similar here, where Wasm will be one primitive that succeeds in a number of different use cases. And these markets will be huge. But other things like VMs, micro VMs, containers will still exist. So that's a very long way to say that, yes, I'm very bullish. And I do think that this resembles Docker in a lot of ways. Great. Michael? Right. So I've been covering the application development space since 2003. And I've seen a lot of waves in technology. There's bound to be a certain amount of hype with Wasm. But the real crunch, and as Shareen just said, does it fill a gap? And if it fulfills that need, then it will go beyond the hype. So it was interesting to talk to Adobe. When Flash was killed, if you guys remember, the days of Flash. And it was very common, but it also had its issues. Every day you had to do an update because of security. And then Adobe killed Flash. But the day they killed it, they started to look at what's going to come next. And they had these conversations with Mozilla. And that led to Wasm. So Wasm fills a lot of needs. From my perspective, I see that it is going to go beyond the hype in a nutshell. I'm glad to hear it. Alex? I'm working on a story on programming languages and how they're shaping Wasm development. And one of the themes you hear about, and I think it was actually one of the first things I heard today, I think it was actually in the keynote and the initial statements about how really it's, with the programming language development, you'll see more people in the ecosystem. And you'll see more people developing with Wasm. That being said, I'm quite skeptical of this interchangeability thing. I don't really think that's it. I'm starting to wonder if WebAssembly is going to be something like RSS, where RSS is a fundamental technology for the web. It really did usher in our thoughts and perspectives about PubSub, syndication. It ushered in some of the initial concepts, conceptual frameworks around social networks. It really did have an impact, but when people try to make it into a product, it didn't work. You could develop newsreaders with RSS, but that was the newsreader. It wasn't necessarily WebAssembly. So the way that I am starting to see WebAssembly, and I'm going to be just watching it closely to see this, is does WebAssembly just help bring shape to larger matters of interest to people? So does it provide shape for edge-based architectures? Does it provide shape for other ways that we're thinking about virtualization overall? So my mind is not quite made up. Can I add some more thoughts to that? So there's a huge, huge amount of Java legacy. And Java is only just now catching up with Clownnative and with new products like Liberty that's open source and is making Java a lot faster and able to be used in the Clownnative context. They've only just now caught up, and now suddenly there's WebAssembly. And Rust is one of the foremost languages for WebAssembly. Can we make Java run with WebAssembly? So there's a need to address the legacy. So that's one thought. And the other one is I'd love to see an end-to-end wasm. And that means also widgets that allow you to create the interface. So that's one for me to watch. I think if we get that complete end-to-end, wasm will take over the world as far as I'm concerned. But yeah, it needs to address Java because of that massive legacy. And I'd love to see an end-to-end wasm. And yeah, it's really exciting. That's the other thing is talking to people. They're moving away from Clownnative because they see that it's done now. And it's only now what's happening in the KubeCon world is just filling in the details. And the really bleeding edge work is being done in WebAssembly. And people are moving from Clownnative to wasm because they want to be at that forefront. So that's another sense that I get about what's happening in the developer community. Yeah, so I want to give a shout out to Joel Dias who showed off his work with Java and WebAssembly earlier today. And then in Luke Wagner's keynote, he talked about basically this flywheel where once we start having programming languages and tools and real applications that are doing this end-to-end work, we're going to just keep seeing this iteration go and in your words, take over the world, which I loved. Alex, it looked like you wanted to jump in there. Yeah, and you know what's interesting about TVM, Joel I think is an independent developer, right? He works for Fermion. He works for Fermion, okay. But what has Oracle done actually in the open source community with Java over the past 20 years or so? I mean, has it been deeply involved in actual open source development? Yeah, there was a lull with Java. I think the Oracle people have owned up to that, I think if I can say that. And a lot of the community around Java has opened up as a result, and there's other teams now really taking up the slack and the lull. And IBM is one of them, I'm seeing them do with Liberty doing some really interesting things, Red Hat. So I see a new momentum with Java, but they're only now just really catching up with Cloud Native and now we're in the wasm world. So, you know. And the other thing I think about is, and the research I've done is like, a lot of the existing programming languages are now really taking up that slack. And a perspective from a very well known technologist who I spoke to recently said, Java was that universal compiler for many, many years. And that almost gave a window to a lot of different programming language, such as Rust. Yes. And so then now we have Liberty with Java, but now we're seeing things like TVM, but the question I think is, we're in that kind of space in the market where there's a lot of chaos, right? Yeah, I mean, the end-to-end bit really mattered because people were coming to us and asking us, what do we build on the interface? Because that whole interface world just fragmented and it was really difficult. You had all these different footprints for your desktop, your laptop, your tablets, your mobile especially. And then that gave the opportunity for this, you know, the W3C standards and JavaScript, but it really fragmented the world and people really wanted one platform to do everything. And JavaFX could have done it, but it was really late. And although it does exist, it doesn't have the mind share. So I think that that's an area, that's an opportunity. I'd be interested to see how Wazim addresses that. Actually, this is a great point to jump in because we've been asking for questions all day and we got one from Mikkel, which is very relevant to this topic, which is, you know, what are some good initiatives that we should be doing in the WebAssembly ecosystem? Like what do we need to take on to improve awareness about WebAssembly among developers? You know, all three of you have been following tech for so long, what do we need to do, especially maybe what could we do differently from some of the other initiatives that you followed in the past? I think the biggest thing to get WebAssembly awareness out there is just to really show the community that we're solving pain points. So I think to Alex's point, like in 10 years, if we're still talking about WebAssembly as the headline, I actually think we all failed because I think WebAssembly is the best technology to solve real problems around portability and speed and data transformations and UDFs. But it should be behind the scenes to the actual developer pain points that this technology solves. And I think right now, and this is a really common question I get, is WebAssembly seems cool, but what pain points does it solve? Does it solve things that are incremental or is this really gonna change the world? And so even if somebody did like a map of, these are the 10 best categories and these are the 10 pain points that WebAssembly could solve, I think it would make it a lot more palatable for the developer community at large. So when Lynn Clark, who works for Mozilla, she wrote a really good article in 2018 about how WebAssembly at that point in time was an MVP and what it needed to do. We're now 2022 and that momentum is being taken up by the Wasm community with companies like Cosmonic and others and really building out that ecosystem that's absolutely necessary for Wasm is gonna be a success. So I think you just need to continue that momentum. I think when the big players in the industry, you've got, you had Docker on the stage today. I mentioned Adobe. When these big players start to become part of the Wasm community, I think that'll just increase the momentum and when those players engage, you're gonna get a growth of the community. I remember going to KubeCon, the first KubeCon meeting had about 300 people. Now it's what, 12,000. Here is Wasm Day, about 100 people. Yeah, we'll see what happens. I wish it success, really. We'll see. So I don't know about you. I keep a pretty large Rolodex of all the things that are happening and I feel like every day it gets updated. I've seen some other people's Rolodexes. I've seen Liam's, for example. And everybody here has at least once seen the CNCF cloud landscape. It is a big thing. I wanna know, because I need help, how do you manage all of that? Who are you following? I mean, do you have any tips for us that are trying to figure out what is happening? I'm gonna jump to you, Alex, because it seems like you're on top of it. I use Twitter quite a bit. I have a, I use TweetDeck and I have a keyword there for WebAssembly. I'll interchange it with Wasm. I'll look for the people then who are mentioned. I'll look those people up. I'll add them to my WebAssembly list of people that I follow on Twitter. It's actually a list I keep for myself. So those are some of the ways I'm looking at it and so I've been able to discover and to find people who are doing interesting things and so that's how I'm trying to keep up with it. For me, it's writing as well. Like that helps me just understand it better. I think one of the things that we really could, there's a few things I think about based on your other question too. Like, what's the open source governance right now for Wasm? How is that developing? And what have we learned from other open source projects out there that can get either Balkanized or even with big companies, they start to reflect more the interest of those larger institutions, right? So that's one thing I'm thinking about is what about the education? How well educated are, how good a job we do in educating people to help explain these topics? Like it's only through like side conversations. Can I understand what a WITZ is and how it relates to world and how that relates to component models, right? And how component models relate to Wazi and how Wazi relates to WebAssembly, right? It's like those kinds of things I think are gonna be really important for people to understand just those basic fundamentals. I also think it's important not to get, this is hard to do because excitement just is captivating to people and like getting really excited about something and there's nothing more fun about it. And I haven't felt this kind of like energy for me since 2014 and when the containers were really kind of like shaving how we felt about the new stack. So, but I'm also being wary because I know I remember things back then that happened and they could, and I'm sure they'll happen again but it's just to one degree. Sort of on that note, getting back to that feeling of 2014, is there anything happening here that feels different? Like is there anything that Wazim is doing that's on a very different path from containers? Renee? It's a good question. I'm thinking about it out loud. There's not a lot that, I mean there's small differences I'd say but nothing is major. I think the biggest thing we saw in 2014 that was spitting out a lot of the great technology including containers was stuff started at big companies. So, we actually track internal tooling very closely and like the first set of companies was Google and Facebook and Google made Kubernetes and then those projects started to spin out and they became mainstream. And then the second class of companies was sort of Uber, Airbnb, Stripe. They were on the cutting edge of cloud native microservices and for example, there was an open source project out of Uber called Cadence which did long running state and workflows and it became a company called Temporal and now it's decently widespread and that was something we invested in and so now I'm kind of looking at what the next class of companies are that are gonna spin out tooling and technology in the Wazim space and I'm actually kind of looking to the Cloudflare and Fastly and a lot of people that are in the Byte Code Alliance right now and so I mean that is like the probably the clearest similarity I see. I think that this environment actually the difference is that this environment actually feels a lot more collaborative. Like the Byte Code Alliance is so collaborative whereas the Mesosphere, Kubernetes, Battles from back in the day, it didn't feel like there was this alliance that was keeping everybody together. Very cool, Michael. Yes, so sort of joining this question and the last one, I actually had this conversation with KubeCon about that huge landscape growth and trying to navigate that and they said to me, look, we are a maintainers conference. We're not here for the enterprise. We're not here to hold their hands. There is a certain element of navigation and but the emphasis is that it's an event for maintainers and in a way that gives us an analyst firm an opportunity because that's what we do. We help and Alex here writes about it and so on but to address your question and what you can do different, you have to decide if this event, Wasm Day is going to be, is it about the community and getting them together which is really important but do you also want to help the enterprises? Do you want to have an enterprise track? A lot of conferences do have that. They have an executive track for and I think actually KubeCon does have that an executive track for enterprises. So that's something you need to think about but yeah, at this sort of cooperative stage where rival companies are getting together to build the foundation, I think there's a very good ambience and I think it's great that you have these companies work together so that's a good field. Yeah, I personally love it. I no longer feel like I'm trapped on a single place. Ralph, were you raising your hand to ask a question? Ooh, I can't wait. Yes. Things like language ecosystems along some are more difficult to carry different promises. How do you all assess those various ecosystems as we go forward? I'm gonna summarize that really quickly so many different language ecosystems have a different path onboarding into WebAssembly. How should we address that going forward? Something like that? They heard it, so. I'm Renee, you want it too? Yeah, I mean I think there's a little bit of a chicken and egg which we think about too because I think some language communities have believed in WebAssembly a little bit more but even as WebAssembly has picked up in the last two, three years I've seen more languages putting effort into support and I think this has been true for a lot of different things in the wasm ecosystem. For example, three years ago, nobody really wanted to work on wasm debugging because there were like no one's using wasm in production but now that people are, we're seeing better debugging solutions come out. So I think languages will be the same but also and I don't know this is true as fact but I see that the languages that work well with WebAssembly are becoming more and more popular. Like Rust's growth is obviously explosive. I don't think it's a coincidence that Rust compiles to WebAssembly and people love the language. So maybe this is like a little bit Machiavellian but if WebAssembly really takes off and the language doesn't compile to wasm easily maybe that language will slightly decline over time and those that do compile to wasm will be more successful. And we're very excited about Rust and Zig and some of the other ones. Michael? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's up to the language communities. They wanna see their language grow and WebAssembly is where they need to work with. So they need to put that effort in. And Java is the case in point and I'm not seeing, I mean, unfortunately I missed the keynote this morning so well but I'm not seeing a huge amount with Java at the moment. There is, I know there's work being done but I think they're a little bit behind the curve and they really need to keep pace because they'll suffer. And people have talked about the death of Java so many times and I always poo pooed it because Java, as you just said Alex, Java is a platform, it's not just a language and it does so many things but there's gonna be a pivot point when another language takes over and if Java doesn't catch up with WebAssembly it could be another language like Rust that begins to grow bigger so yeah. I'm pretty excited about the conspiracy theory that Rust is exploding because of WebAssembly. I'm into that but I also love the idea that that's a threat for other languages. But there's also Mozilla, right? It's true, it's true. Go ahead Alex. So Mozilla, you know, it's really behind Rust and also behind WebAssembly too in many ways. So I think there's that. One thing that I would note is that I mean if you look at units of efficiency, right? And how more efficient architectures have become over the past 30 years from mainframes to physical computers to virtualization to containers and now onto wasm and so if you look at that continuum and much to Matt's point which you pointed out which he talks a lot about like that continuum actually builds on top of things. We heard Justin this morning saying, Justin's a unicolonial fan and he's like wasm kind of reminds me of unicornals. Well wasm and unicorals remind me of micro virtualization which again speaks to those units of efficiency. So the question is what are these programming languages? How are these programming languages gonna be adapt to those units of efficiency, right? And so like Go is a great program language for the container ecosystem and worked well with containers. Now how we see and go kind of emerge when we see tiny Go but it's not, there's no kind of main way but that's just a little bit different, right? Then you just leverage and go itself. So that's gonna be my question is like, are we gonna start to see programming languages emerge for WebAssembly, right? And how will those existing programming languages continue to maintain and grow and those kind of factors that I look at. I'm gonna give a shout out to Grain right there for programming languages that are designed for WebAssembly, that's one of them. There are many others. Yeah, actually I was just gonna mention a few of them. Alex is over here citing his sources. Yeah, what were they? A few that actually Fermion talked about, there's assembly script, right? Which we know about, Grain. And another one, you know, Motoko and then we have Motoko which is built for internet computer interestingly enough. It's a type safe language that utilizes an actor model. I've heard that cited as an interesting kind of factor is the actor model and how important that could possibly be. I mean, Erlang is an actor model, correct? And so, but there's also Blazor and Python shows some of the biggest gains, you know, last year. So we're seeing a lot of, there's no question to me that the ecosystem story is building and programming languages about WebAssembly. No question. Yeah, actually I'm glad you mentioned Python because when AI and data science grew and Java wasn't really the appropriate language, it gave an opportunity to Python and Python just took off. But as you all know, Python is not a very performant language. And then you see others like Julia, but it's still a fairly minority sport. And I just wonder if Wasm can address AI and data science, that would be really interesting. So yeah. I would love to see that. Well, Michael, a second story, I think I'll probably speak to that. I mean, he's really, I mean, he's the one who kind of helped me open my thoughts like how in edge architectures could be like that bridge between ML and AI, isn't that right, Michael? And I mean, also shout out to the earlier talk today that Carl gave where he's running, you know, simple AI, but AI running inside the database. So you can do real-time analytics, imagine real-time AI and data science and all those different things. Python comes online, then you've got WebAssembly there running across the entire ecosystem and stack, which is what you all want. I have to say also I'm really happy to see Docker's pushing forward its commitment to WebAssembly. I just found Docker in those early days as such an inspiration for me to write about because they really believed in that developer experience. They really embraced it and they really, and basically, Solomon would say, you know, hey, we're just trying to make the internet more usable. I mean, that was kind of like the big goal there. And I mean, if that could be like a dream and kind of a passion for the WebAssembly community, that'd be great. I think that's kind of like when you hear someone, can you hear people talk about the interchangeability to be able to use multiple programming languages, that's a dream of the developer experience. And but there's a lot of skepticism about it because we've seen it before. But Docker helped, I think of anything, Docker showed that we can have that great developer experience. You know, it didn't, I don't think it translated to Kubernetes, but you know, that's another story entirely. So you mentioned how there's an ecosystem and the right tool for the right job. And I'm trying to get my head around wasm and container because a lot of people talk about wasm versus containers, but it's really coming to that point where you have to choose the right tool for the job. And if it makes sense to run wasm in a container, then that's the right thing to do. So you need that capability to give you that choice. That's really right. But on the counter to that Fastly and other companies, they're not running containers on the edge. Right. They're running while, right? And that gives the shape then to a whole different kind of perspective about cloud services overall. You must be loving this. I have liked what's happening. And yeah, at some point I'll tell the group my current investment ideas in wasm. So someone here can start. Oh, what are they? They're on those spaces. That's your secret, right? Are you gonna share the secrets also? Yeah, no, I'm happy to. I write about this on Twitter. Actually, the limiting factor right now for web assembly companies and startups is people who wanna go start web assembly companies. There's no shortage of ideas. And so the two places I'm most keen on making a new web assembly investment and I hope everyone here will take notes cause it's probably gonna be started by one of you is actually one is just on the client side piece. So I actually think server side has gotten a lot of attention and that's great and historically budgets are on the server but we haven't seen as many client side startups. And it's still non-trivial for developers to build a Figma-like app in the browser. And so if there were some easy framework to do that I would certainly be very interested. And then the second piece and Bailey this is related to your work at single store actually is just in the database. So that's both on the server side and on the client side. I think we're seeing so much interesting stuff with databases in the browser compiling to web assembly. That can make much more sophisticated applications in the front end. And then also things like DuckDB which are OLAP databases but still can be run in the browser. And then obviously the server side stuff has been talked about a lot today but a database that is sort of redone with wasm in mind and maybe that's transformations built in or machine learning but basically wasm modules literally running inside of the database and just thinking through what pain points that could solve. So those are the two areas that I'm currently most excited about. So client side and database? Large, yeah broadly client side and database largely. So because the wasm logic can run inside the database. That's right. And then what about the client side then? So a lot of like there's been work and I'm sure you've seen this of Postgres compiling the wasm in the browser and so I think that that type of work in the browser. And widgets, I'd love to see an abstraction that makes it really easy to create. You don't care about the intricacies of Android or an iPhone. You just want an abstraction that makes it really easy and that's what I mean by that end to end. So I'm waiting for that to appear. My hope for that is components. But so what I've heard now is that WebAssembly is likely to influence new programming languages that target directly and new databases. I find that extremely exciting idea. So kind of a different twist on the question that you're just prompted with which lines up with another one that we've gotten for our audience is that with the investments which have been made in container-centric systems over the years, what do you think the WebAssembly ecosystem needs to provide to be able to be competitive with containers? And I will say that we also can run side-by-side with containers given the talk today but let's say what makes wasm better. Go ahead. Well, hell, I mean, you've got microservices. That's the cloud native paradigm, right? So that's really taking over and that's gonna be the dominant paradigm. So wasm is always gonna be a little bit behind that. Cloud native is just sort of taking over that monolithic legacy. So we're gonna see that growth in cloud native that that's just gonna happen. And so yeah, you need to be able to compete with that world and just make it, born on the cloud, companies invented that paradigm before people started using the terminology of microservices and so on, Netflix, Twitter, you know, all of those cloud companies, they created that technology, they open sourced it and you're gonna need to compete with that but do you need to? This is what we said at the beginning that it's an ecosystem and it's the right tool for the right job and wasm has so much going for it in terms of performance in being able to be used on the edge, on the server, on the client side. So yeah, it's watched this space. If you get that end to end, I think you'll get a lot of developers moving to wasm simply because you'll be able to provide that abstraction and you're gonna reinvent what made Java applets in their days and visual basics so attractive and it was a huge, you know, it had its day and you'll get that mind share so that the opportunities are out there. You just have to have the right pieces in place so I'm hoping it'll happen. Renee? Yeah, I think that, I mean, we heard a lot about the component model this morning and obviously that's a big one that the wasm ecosystem is looking forward to but I think to really compete with Docker, the developer tool chain hasn't been done so it's not just about the Docker container itself, it's observability and there are container-centric observability companies. It's CICD, it's build tooling and there's this whole ecosystem that makes using containers very easy and I don't think there are necessarily equivalents yet for the wasm community. Certainly you can use some of the existing tool set for wasm, it's not gonna be totally new but generally when we see these paradigm shifts and I'd say wasm is one, there is a new tool chain that's built just for that. I'd say orchestration is another one that I think could be big for WebAssembly and so I think once those things come into place we'll see a much greater proliferation of WebAssembly. I was gonna quote a story from our editor and chief, Joe Jackson, who wrote about, actually it was related to Cosmonic and he writes that the current cloud native approach for running even minimal applications can be a chore to developers. Even a few hundred lines of simple business logic must be compiled and then packaged into a container and then scheduled on Kubernetes and so that's definitely a factor there that's scheduling and it speaks to the strength of Nomad in addition but it's hard to kind of talk about who's gonna win the war because there is no war. There's this perception of this conflict and you might see it as very real but in another dimension you could say that Docker in the container community have done a fantastic job of establishing of the open source standards, container D, OCI, right? Those are here to stay and they're gonna still remain very, very important so that's, but if you look at the lightweight capabilities and just the cost of setting up Kubernetes how much does it cost to set up a Kubernetes cluster? I mean it's like basically a network of servers, right? How much does each server cost to set up? A thousand bucks or something like that and do you have to keep those servers running all the time? Well, pretty much, right? At least some of them, you can't turn the container, you can't turn it off because the containers will go down and then it takes a long time to bring them back up, long time kind of relatively speaking, right? So, you know, so there's, so they're gonna be working together and there's no doubt about that. Don't forget about serverless because that's also part of the cloud native paradigm. But it's also part of the wasm story, right? Well, that's gonna be, yeah, exactly. But you always have to keep the containers running. Yeah, I mean, yeah, to keep them warm, you need at least one running. But you talked about war, but don't forget, we're in KubeCon, so it's not a war, you're right. That's not, well, it's not. Talking about other types of competition, there are also micro-VMs. You know, they are other things that let you, you know, run small, let's say is the goal because we can write software all day, we can talk about really cool academic things that we find really interesting and exciting and it has to solve problems to be real, but it also has to take into account costs and costs is something that we don't often talk about. But micro-VMs is one of those that it helps solve the cost vector. How do you see wasm working with micro-VMs or their paradigm and, you know, I guess, you know, a personal fear of mine is that, you know, unicolonial path and trajectory might look pretty similar to wasm, Renee? Yeah, I mean, I am personally very excited about micro-VMs as well and I've looked into the Firecracker project and I know that I believe micro-VMs are powering lambdas, right? You can fact-check me, okay. So I definitely think there's like a time and a place and certainly micro-VMs, again, have certain properties that make them appealing. I believe one of which is security, again, fact-check. But I still think that wasm alone has much more backing, much more funding, much more mind-share that I actually haven't seen as much competition from the micro-VM community yet. Very interesting. I mean, outside of the Firecracker folks who are all fabulous, I actually can't think of a really large project that is sort of thinking about micro-VMs. Obviously, Firecracker powers a lot of stuff but for WebAssembly, that's just not true and so it already seems like WebAssembly is the front-runner but a lot of people are very excited about micro-VMs and I know a lot of people feel like it's more of the near-term solution whereas WebAssembly is more maybe of the long-term one. Did Unicernals just get too cloaked in their early days because they were so important to the defense industry? And that's kind of one thing I think about like that history of Unicernals and how they were used really by the three-letter acronym organizations out there and the open source development of Unicernals wasn't as great. I know Justin Cormack and his key came out of a Unicernal world and so I think he has a great degree of interest in it but to me, Unicernals then became, micro-Virtualization became the new Unicernal and now you could argue that WebAssembly is the new micro-Virtualization and if you think about it, isn't Wasm at its core using virtualization as a portable in its portable capability? Yeah, Wasm is a portable VM. Well, Wasm is a W3C standard and I think that's really, really crucial. Yeah, yeah, it's a standard and I think that's gonna make all the difference. Yeah, an open standard is really like a contract between all the players to play along, right? And once we have that base, we can build so many incredible things on top of it and building the base is slow but I think it's so, so necessary to be successful so that is one key difference. I'm kinda curious, Renee, if you had to pick one thing, like what's the most important or valuable reason for why you invest in Wasm? I mean, we're in the business of massive, albeit potentially binary outcomes and so we are basically excited about things that could be $4 billion businesses or potentially less but the upside is really what gets us exciting and I don't think we've seen a new primitive since containers that has been as exciting as WebAssembly or has the potential to be as massive and I think that is just how technology typically goes. You typically have a big shift and maybe that's the shift of microservices or containers and then the solutions for the next five years tend to be a little bit more incremental and I don't, that's not a bad thing, like the tooling needs to come and then you have another big shift and then for the next five years you have more incremental solutions and so we were getting to a point three or four years ago where we would look around and ask each other and just say what's the next infrastructure primitive or what's the next big thing in infrastructure and we just couldn't figure that out and then when WebAssembly came along, we felt like wow, this really could be it. So it is for me really about a trend and a new way of working that's driven by edge computing, IoT, compute much closer to the user, data everywhere, that's where I feel like the market is going and WebAssembly is squarely in the middle of that and that to me feels, that's what's driving this massive wave. Here, here. Here, here. Yeah, I love that. I think that's right on. I think what Renee is talking about to me is like that shape that I was talking about earlier. I can see a shape now with WebAssembly kind of in terms of like edge architectures, right? More so than I ever could before and that's gonna change a lot, right? I mean, how many data centers are there in the world? There's, I mean, thousands, I don't know how many there are, right? But how much of the world really actually has access to really good internet and to be able to build developer platforms on top of things, not just a major cloud service, right? So that to me shows some promise of what's to come. Yeah, there's a lot of fragmentation on the edge and wasm could be that technology that sort of brings communities and vendors together around the standard. So yeah, that's a big opportunity. I mean, Alex has been here keeping us on the edge throughout the talk. I consider a phone an edge device. So I mean, it really is. And if we can get wasm running there, that means we've won, right? Yeah, sure. So I think that is most of the questions that we've gotten from the audience. I am sort of wondering from Michael, am I gonna see a wasm, forester wave, some new magic quadrant that I have to shoot for and talk about, what do you think? Well, right now I'm writing a serverless, we have our equivalent of the magic quadrant. We have the Omdia universe. I'm writing one now on the serverless services and Cosmonic is in that because you have a serverless solution. So yeah, watch this space. I'm looking very eagerly to see another opportunity to cover wasm, absolutely. Okay, I'm gonna stop there since you said what I wanted. No, I'm kidding. Watch the space is the note that I wanna end on and thank you to our panelists. You guys did an amazing job. It was a blast and I actually learned a lot. So thank you very much. Thanks very much. Thank you.