 Can I ask those members of the public who are still leaving the gallery to please do so quickly and quietly? Thank you for your co-operation as we are now taking our next item of business, which is a member's business debate on motion 11509 in the name of Ruth Maguire on international insights, a model for Scotland. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request-to-speak buttons and I call on Ruth McWire to open the debate, Ms McWire. To truly realise our shared ambition of eradicating male violence against women and girls, Scotland needs a progressive legal model to tackle prostitution, a model that shifts the burden of criminality off victims of sexual exploitation and on to those who perpetrate and profit from the abuse. To prevent sexual exploitation and deliver justice to victims, the Scottish Government must decriminalise victims of sexual exploitation by repealing section 46 of the Civic Government Scotland Act 1982, wipe previous convictions, outlaw online pimping, criminalise paying for sex and provide comprehensive, resourced support and exiting services for victims of sexual exploitation. To do that effectively, it will be important to learn from international examples. I thank members from across the chamber for signing my motion and helping to secure this debate, and I'm particularly grateful to those who are contributing today, including the Minister for Community Safety, who I know to be fully and passionately committed to women's equality and ensuring that Scotland is safer for all. I'd like to echo the thoughts of Diane Martin, CBA chair of Model for Scotland when she says that she hopes that this report gives confidence to Scottish lawmakers that the international evidence base is there and the time for change in Scotland is now. A model for Scotland is an alliance of survivors, organisations and front-line services calling for the progressive model that I outlined previously. I should declare an interest as a member of the steering group of that organisation. The prostitution trade is transnational and countries face common challenges in tackling commercial sexual exploitation. The Model for Scotland report international insights provides helpful international evidence with key learning from Sweden, Ireland, France, Iceland and the United States. In 1999, Sweden became the first country to combat demand for prostitution by criminalising paying for sex, while decriminalising victims of sexual exploitation. Evidence shows that the proportion of men paying for sex has dropped, public attitudes have changed and the law acts as a deterrent to sex trafficking. Key learning from Sweden includes how essential it is to train law enforcement agencies to ensure effective enforcement and the development of a nationwide network of support and exiting services is crucial. In 2017, Ireland criminalised paying for sex and decriminalised selling sex. Early observations reveal a shift in the burden of criminality from the victims to the exploiters. Women in prostitution report feeling more able to disclose violence against them to the police and there is a high level of public understanding that prostitution is a form of sexual exploitation. In Ireland, partnership working was crucial to the adoption and implementation of the laws and the provision of support and exiting services for victims, a vital component of that law reform. In 2016, France decriminalised soliciting for prostitution, criminalised paying for sex and established comprehensive support provisions for victims of sexual exploitation. The same legislation established a national policy on prevention, education and training to prevent sexual exploitation. The law resulted in an immediate change in law enforcement activity, shifting from a focus on penalising victims of sexual exploitation to holding sex buyers to account. Exiting prostitution programmes have proved successful and there is a high level of public support for France's new abolitionist laws to combat prostitution. In France, strong political leadership was pivotal to securing legal reform. Iceland criminalised paying for sex in 2009, selling sex had been decriminalised in 2007. In response to that legislation, the focus of policing shifted towards targeting and holding accountable those who create demand for prostitution. There is strong support amongst the general public for Iceland's prostitution laws. Key learning from there was that the prostitution trade should be tackled as part of broader efforts to combat commercial sexual exploitation in its entirety. United States made a criminal offence for pimping websites, which advertised individuals for prostitution to operate in 2017. That new legislation established criminal and civil liability for websites that promote and facilitate prostitution and led to a significant shrinkage of the sexual exploitation marketplace. Within 48 hours of the law being passed, major websites stopped hosting prostitution adverts. A year after the legislation was passed, the sexual exploitation advertising market remained significantly disrupted with the reduction in demand and failure of any pimping websites to recapture the market dominance of the biggest pimping website to previously operate. Key learning from there is that actions against those websites are crucial in reducing demand and deterring sex trafficking. I know how proud my Government is to take forward a human rights-based approach in policymaking and legislation. I welcome that we will have a Scottish human rights bill coming soon. Scotland has multiple international obligations to discourage demand for sexual exploitation. The Palermo protocol, CEDAW and the Council of Europe convention on action against trafficking in human beings. Speaking about France, I spoke of the political leadership that was required to make those changes. I think that I will give the last words to the former Minister for Women's Rights in France, Najat Valu Belkacem. She said, "...it is not only a question of fighting against violence, the specific oppression represented by prostitution, but it is also about teaching the principle that a woman's body is not for sale, that it is not an object, that a woman is not a commodity." I now call Ivan McKee to be followed by Tess White. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I thank Ruth Maguire for bringing it to the chamber. I did reflect that the last time I spoke on a debate on this subject was in December 2017, so I am not sure how much progress has been made in the intervening six years. I suppose that questions for the minister may want to address in her summing up, but it is still the Government's position that prostitution is violence against women, and if so, what plans do they have to actually do something about it? The motion of course addresses the report on international comparisons and the importance of learning from experiences of other countries, what works and what best practice looks like. I want to draw on some examples from that work with respect to Ireland, noting that when previous convictions for prostitution were expunged alongside the laws for criminalising buying of sex, it was more likely that women would then report to any violence that was committed against them as a consequence of that. In France, measures put in place to provide support, including financial and accommodation support for women exiting prostitution, and as a result of that programme, 90 per cent of women exiting prostitution found stable jobs at the end of the programme. In Sweden, the important stress of training for law enforcement required to ensure effective roll-out of the implementation of the legislation, and also in Sweden, the importance of tackling trafficking alongside prostitution and doing so together, in the words of one person that made Sweden a very unattractive location for traffickers as that market dried up. It is also hugely important to identify and recognise the importance of culture change, shifting the boundaries of what is recognised to be acceptable behaviour within society, not normalising that exploitative behaviour. Again, some examples in Sweden in 1996 before the implementation of the legislation, 33 per cent of the population went in favour of criminalising payment for sex. By 2015, that had risen to 72 per cent, and only 0.8 per cent of men reported pain for sex in the last 12 months in Sweden in 2015, the lowest across all of Europe. From Iceland, after the implementation of the legal reforms that was noted that it created a space where people see prostitution as something that threatens the dignity and health of the seller, the report is also clear that strong political leadership is an absolute prerequisite for addressing this challenge and that the role of government is to end violence against women, not to mitigate or legitimise it. Finally, to reflect back on some of the points I made in my comments in December 2017, I addressed to those who would, in some way, justify or be opposed to the criminalisation of pain for sex. I find it very peculiar and very illuminating that they take the word of supply side pimps, industry bodies and others in powerful economic lobbies in this sector that they would never take the word of in any other sector. They are very quickly right to call out, as we all do, exploitative sexual behaviour, being the workplace that anywhere else that relies on significant imbalances of power without recognising the significant imbalances of economic power that is absolutely core to pain for sex. Finally, those who would say that would be opposed to, for example, the use of asking for sex as part of a rental contract informally, they would find that abhorrent, but when the mechanism of exchange is not rent but is cash, they find that absolutely acceptable. I think that those points deserve to be made again. I thank Ruth McGrath for bringing forward this motion and to those who worked on the report and the very helpful guidelines that it promotes for taking this work forward to Scotland. I thank Ruth McGuire for securing the time for this afternoon's debate on such an important issue. I know that Ruth McGuire and Rhoda Grant's work on this topic long predates my time in the Scottish Parliament. How Scotland addresses prostitution and protects vulnerable women has been discussed and debated many times in this chamber, I understand. However, as Ivan McKee has pointed out today, there has sadly still been no real resolution. The Scottish Government's 2021 programme for government committed to, quote, develop a model for Scotland that effectively tackles and challenges men's demand for prostitution. Work is on-going, but the commercial sexual exploitation of women continues every day, often with harrowing consequences. There are, of course, questions over the policy approach to a model for Scotland. Do you tackle prostitution in law or through other mechanisms? How do you change behaviour and reduce demand? How do you mitigate the unintended consequences of criminalising the purchase of sex? There are ideological questions, too. If two consenting adults agree to purchasing sex, should that be acceptable in the eyes of the law? Can there ever be an equal distribution of power in such a situation where sex with women is a commodity bought by men? Ruth McGuire's motion focuses on international insights and learning. I noticed that the Netherlands is not mentioned. I lived and worked in the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal as long as it involves the sex between consenting adults. In the Netherlands, it is a liberal approach where prostitution is normalised, and I have reflected on that for many years. I open in conversations with sexual violence support services and advocacy groups such as Buyer's Place and the Women's Support Project. Since I was first elected, they have had a massive impact on me. Prostitution is not about pleasure or gratification, it is about exploitation and violence. I am still developing my own position on how we address such a complex issue as this, but the immovable starting point for me is how we best protect vulnerable women from coercion, violence and abuse. In the Netherlands, just because prostitution is legal does not make it safe. Forced prostitution, underage prostitution and unsafe working conditions still happen, but underreporting to police about what happens in the room is common practice because of prejudice. I note with interest that the Dutch Government has been working to improve the social and legal position of sex workers. In closing, Diane Martin CBE, chair of a model for Scotland, has urged the Scottish Government to be courageous as it tackles the sex trade. I pay tribute to Diane's own courage and work and hope that MSPs will answer her call to action as we look how to protect women from sexual violence. I thank Ruth Maguire for bringing forward the debate and for paying tribute to the work of Diane Martin on the issue. I, too, am a proud member of the steering group for the campaign. The campaign has now produced a number of reports on the international insights report, which are the latest. The report highlights what Scotland can learn from other countries to combat commercial sexual exploitation. Commercial sexual exploitation is international, so it is really important that we work together. We can learn from other countries. Sweden became the first country to combat commercial sexual exploitation by criminalising paying for sex back in 1999. In 1996, 12.7 per cent of men in Sweden paid for sex. In 2008, 7.6 per cent of men paid for sex, so we see almost a halving of the number just because of that change in the law. Ruth Maguire talked about the other countries, our nearest neighbours. France shifted the burden of criminality in 2016, Ireland the year after, and in the USA in 2017 as well, they tackled pimping websites. We saw a huge decrease in the number of people that were using those pimping websites and, indeed, in demand. That was highlighted by the model for Scotland's report on online pimping. It is well worth a read for those who are interested in that area. It is essential that we deal with demand, because trafficking for sexual exploitation is the most profitable form of modern slavery in the world and is fuelled by demand. Globally, it is an industry of more than $100 billion per year. In those countries that take a more liberal approach, by normalising prostitution, we see higher levels of trafficking and those who take the opposite, we have seen as a consequence that human trafficking to those countries has decreased. There are four important lessons that we can learn from the countries who have tackled that issue. It is crucial to support those exiting from prostitution. In France, 600 women have benefited from the exiting programme that they set up in conjunction with their laws back in 2016. Those exiting supports include financial support, accommodation support, support with the damages caused by prostitution and also helping people to get their lives back when an even kill. We have also learned that training of law enforcement and police is essential. In Sweden, that was not done as well as it could have been given. They were the first country to promote that law and have since learned and put training in place, but it is essential that the law enforcement agencies know how to tackle this and how to prosecute. We also have to make sure that online pimping websites are tackled because that really reduces demand. Those who use those websites can hide behind their computer. We also need strong political leadership to do that, because in every other country that has tackled it, we have seen that politicians have faced strong opposition for changing that. There are societal pressures because people believe that a woman's place in society is lower of that than men. It is also a huge industry where people are making a lot of money from exploitation of others. Ruth Maguire pointed out the international obligations that we have for tackling this, to tackle violence against women, trafficking and exploitation, and it is important that we take that lead. The Scottish Government must bring forward a framework to challenge men's demand for prostitution, and that framework needs to set out legislation to address demand, to put in place assistance for those who are exploited. Most of all, it needs to stop Scotland from providing a favourable environment for exploitation. I would like to start by commending Ruth Maguire for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I agree entirely and wholeheartedly with the contents of her speech. I would also like to commend Modifer Scotland on the work that they have been doing on this very important topic over the past wee while. I read the report with interest—I think that it was a month or so ago now—I thought that it was very good and it was very helpful in setting out some of the information in the international context on this subject. I would also like to commend the CPG as well on CSE for all the work that they have also been doing on this topic. The report is about international insights. The international context is, of course, very important on this. It is also instructive for a country that is looking to possibly change the law on this. We have the polymer protocol—that is from the UN—that is to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children. It says that states shall adapt or strengthen legislative or other measures to discourage demand. We have article 6 of CEDAW and that says that states shall take all measures, including legislation, to suppress exploitation and prostitution. We also have the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking to discourage demand. That reducing demand is the key part of this approach. Prostitution and trafficking are linked. Prostitution creates the market that traffickers strive to fill. Reducing demand by creating a legal framework that diminishes it as much as possible is imperative. Sweden showed the way for us on this. It was the first to criminalise the purchase of sex to achieve that suppression in demand. In the 20 or so years since Sweden did this, many other countries have now followed suit. I think that it is up to around eight countries. That gives us more data to look at. It gives us more experience to watch as well to see how a country like Scotland might be able to follow that. Sweden is mentioned in the report. I visited Sweden myself when I was looking into this issue a few years ago. I remember the prosecutors there explaining to me that, although they were very proud of their law and rightly so, they felt on reflection that the fact that there was no way to escalate in terms of, I think that it was just fines, you know, you could be caught a number of times and each time you would get the same fine. So I note from the report that it is now saying that Sweden has updated that now and the minimum penalty now is imprisonment so I note that with interest. The Scottish Government obviously has their position on this which is they have their strategy which is called equally safe and in that it does note that prostitution is violence against women which is obviously the position I think many of us in the chamber would take today. The problem with that is that equally safe has been the position of the Scottish Government for over 10 years now and unfortunately the law has not been updated to reflect that and I will take some personal responsibility because I know that many of the people here will know that I was the minister in charge in that area for a number of years and I will say that it was a personal disappointment to me that I left office having not been able to change the law when I was the minister in government. Unfortunately I learnt that the political will of just one person in a large government is not enough and it was not enough in that case but 10 years is too long it's not good enough that this has not been given a priority and I recognise that the Scottish Government has instead been focusing on other issues some of which I would consider to actually be detrimental to women such as the discredited GRR bill and now seemingly there's nothing from the process of that over the last year and they're thinking of bringing forward a conversion therapy bill and even the proposed misogyny bill that the Government are considering should be brought forward after legislation is undertaken to update the position on prostitution law because prostitution is misogyny in action so members may or may not be aware but I'm planning on bringing forward a members bill on this topic this year I am just finalising my consultation which will be out hopefully in the next few weeks I'd be very happy to discuss that with anyone and I look forward hopefully to receiving cross-party support thank you very much. I thank my friend and colleague Ruth Maguire for bringing this debate. As long as women are seen as a legal commodity to be bought by men there will be no significant shift in men's violence against women. This ability fundamentally fosters a sense of male entitlement and ownership that permeates every aspect of our society. The UN convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, CDAW, is unequivocal. States must address trafficking and prostitution if they are to eliminate discrimination against women. This must be the starting point of our discussions and the words I've stated are simply quoting from a speech I made previously in this Parliament. Now as we know this place opened in 1999 and if you look at the record the first session of the Scottish Parliament prostitution the need for legal reforms to protect women and girls and also to prevent child prostitution was raised in debates, in committees and in minister questioning. It was an issue pursued with vigor by a number of members from different parties and not least the redoubtable Margo McDonald and discussions have continued through multiple sessions since. Now we've heard from Ms Maguire those countries that have managed to make a shift to combat demand for prostitution by criminalising paying for sex whilst decriminalising the victims of sexual exploitation. That means that we have the data bank, we can interrogate, be it in public attitudes, deterrence and all important trafficking as mentioned by Ms Grant. Yet here we are 25 years after Sweden acted and after 25 years of the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament we're still debating rather than having acted. I too note the excellent report by a model for Scotland that it recognises the Scottish Government has pledged to adopt a model for Scotland to challenge men's demand for prostitution and support women to exit sexual exploitation. The government has also developed policy principles to underpin Scotland's framework on prostitution but I feel I have to be frank. Pledges and principles are not enough. We should have acted years before now. Warm words and principles without action quite quickly become virtue signalling. Violence against women and girls continues and there's just recently been data released by the Scottish Government pertaining to 2022 to 2023. We'll just give you five key points. Nearly 15,000 sexual crimes were recorded by Police Scotland and at least 37 per cent of them relate to a victim under the age of 18. Nearly 4,000 sexual crimes were cyber crimes that are trebling from the around 1,000 reported in 2013 to 2014. More than one in six women in Scotland has experienced online violence and nearly 2,000 online child sex abuse crimes were recorded. On rate, the most recent data from the Scottish Crime and Justice Survey of 2019 to 2020 showed that only 22 per cent of victims and survivors of rape reported it to the police and one in 10 people in Scotland still think that women often lie about being raped and nearly one in three continue to believe that rape results from men being unable to control their need for sex. So there's clearly no room for complacency and I also would express the view that the government is currently consulting on some niche issues that seem to be given higher priority than the protection of women and girls. Ideologies antithetical to the interests of women are given priority. So what I seek from the minister is a clear timeline for taking legislative action. I appreciate the complexity. I think that we all do, but it's been done elsewhere. Why not Scotland? Diane Martin, old, ready reference, chair of Modder for Scotland, has so eloquently put it in the reports forward. The role of government must be to end male violence against women, not to mitigate it or legitimise it. Let's make that our north star. Thank you, Ms Thomson. I now call on Minister Siobhan Brown to respond to the debate around seven minutes, please minister. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Firstly, I'd like to thank Ruth Maguire for raising this motion and bringing this debate to the chamber. I know Ruth is very passionate about ensuring progress is made in challenging men's demand for prostitution, as has Rhoda Grant and Ash Regan, and I thank them for all the work that they have done in this area and for all the contributions today. I'm also pleased to see that Ruth's motion did have cross-party support on this very important issue. This debate also comes very timely following the recent 16 days of action on violence against women and girls, where this chamber again came together sending a strong message that violence against women is totally unacceptable. I'm sure that we all agree that there is no place for sexual exploitation in Scotland. I'd also like to thank the Model for Scotland Alliance for their work raising awareness of commercial sexual exploitation. Our engagement with members of the Alliance is helping shape the Scottish Government's framework to challenge men's demand for prostitution, and their recently published report Insights will help inform our developing approach. I'm sure that many of you have seen the Women's Support Project exhibition, which was held in the Scottish Parliament in November, detailing their work over the last 40 years to tackle commercial sexual exploitation, highlighting the energy and the commitment to tackling it from stakeholders all across Scotland, and the progress that has made. I'm very grateful for their on-going work. I note Tess White's contribution and her insight into the model in the Netherlands, and I would like to think that if we fast forward 40 years from now into Scotland's future, I hope that we're living in a Scotland that has overcome the normalisation of behaviours associated with men purchasing sex. It's not acceptable, and challenging these attitudes is key to challenging demand. Our Equally Saved Strategy recognises commercial sexual exploitation as violence against women and makes clear our collective responsibility to tackle the attitudes that perpetuate it in all its forms. Our efforts to challenge demand clearly have links to wider aspects of policy, including contributing to our efforts to tackle misogyny and the ongoing scourge of inequality and poverty, which we know can drive people into exploitation. Therefore, to truly tackle demand, we need an approach that considers the full range of social and economic factors underlying it. Our framework to challenge men's demand for prostitution and improve support for those with experience of it, and this will be published early this year, will bring together wider efforts together. It will also take an intersectional approach setting out for the first time Scotland's strategic approach to tackling prostitution. Like the Nordic model, our framework will look at to enable women to safely and sustainably exit from prostitution. It will raise public awareness, including amongst those delivering public services. It will also clearly recognise women with experience of selling and exchanging sex as victims of exploitation. I'm clear that the framework's approach will provide the basis for any future legislative considerations. As you may be aware, to inform the development of our framework, we published a review of international challenge demand approaches back in 2022. Both this report and the model for Scotland Alliance report highlights that, in addition to the criminal law, there are other important components needed within the to challenge demand approach. We need to continue to learn lessons from those countries who have progressed legislation as a matter of principle and understand why that has been so and why so many today advocate for that. I am conscious that this has not always been delivered with the supporting structure that has been needed, which our framework aims to deliver for those looking to move away from prostitution and to affect the societal change that we all know is required. It is also important to recognise the need to work with international partners to truly address sexual exploitation, not just exporting it elsewhere. Our approach recognises that exploitation has no respect for borders. In that respect, please, Scotland continues to work with partners nationally and internationally to bring offenders to justice. Just yesterday, I met with the UK's new independent anti-slavery commissioner discussing trafficking and exploitation strategy. She was very interested in the work that Scotland is currently doing in regard to commercial sexual exploitation. It is key to ensuring that our approach to tackling demand is sustainable and that we will have a joint up and a preventative approach. The importance of a co-ordinated national approach was illustrated well at the commercial sexual exploitation focused event in Ayrshire, which Ruth Maguire and myself spoke at the 16 days of action against women and girls. The event brought together a wide range of practitioners, for example from housing, health, education and the power of working collaboratively was clearly evident. Collaborative working across policy and services was key to the development of the framework's policy principles published back in 2022. This is a fundamental aspect of the framework, enabling us to build on existing good practice, harnessing it to deliver a more consistent approach across Scotland. One of the participants in the lived experience research which informed the framework said, there are a lot of girls out there who do this and don't want to and they've got nothing else to turn to. They need to know what help is out there for them and who they can talk to. This is what our framework looks to address, making support easier to access with links between mainstream and specialist service strength and so women at any stage of their journey can access the support that they need. At last month's launch of our Trafficking and Exploitation Strategy refresh, I heard directly from women who'd been trafficked for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation and I have to say that meeting them and listening to their stories was incredibly moving and I'm really grateful for their brave and inspirational contributions because it is so important that we listen and learn. The importance of trauma-informed justice was one of the issues raised and this aligns with the framework's approach which acknowledges that those with experience of commercial sexual exploitation are victims of exploitation. We therefore will continue to work with Police Scotland and the wider justice partners as we look to finalise, publish and to implement the framework. We're also aligning progress with our wider work on delivering trauma-informed justice and this includes ensuring that we build on the conclusions from the report published last year on the case for gendered intersectional approaches to justice. That report recognised that supporting women in ways which met their individual needs could have a more powerful impact on their perception of justice leading to a greater trust in the system. To that end and in parallel with the launch of the Equally Safe Refresh, Equally Safe in practice training models are now available to civil servants across the Scottish Government as part of their training offer and development and it's also important that our framework takes an adaptive approach cognisant of emerging risks related to commercial sexual exploitation. This includes online behaviours and considering our next generation, ensuring that young people understand the complexities of CSE and how to stay safe online. We must also remain vigilant within our responses to crisis, for example our collective responses to the cost of living crisis and the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. Recognise the need as an adaptive approach to bring together our approaches to tackle commercial sexual exploitation more holistically, we will establish a new multi-agency group on commercial sexual exploitation that will support the framework's implementation. As I have outlined today, there is clearly positive progress across Scotland in our collective's efforts to tackle CSE however we can and should do more and our framework will pave the way for this and I look forward to updating the chamber following the framework's publication. Thank you minister. That concludes the debate and I suspend this meeting until 2.30pm.