 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today we are joined by steel turking tin in Sydney, Australia Steel, how are you? Hi? I'm good. How are you? Good man? This is awesome We are basically in different days like you're a day ahead of me because I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio I mean your future. You're in my future Wow, yeah, that's pretty far. It looks it looks good for you. Excellent. Cool. It's full of drums Good things in store Cool. Well, yeah, so today we're talking about something a little bit different than we normally talk about but it's Kind of encompasses everything. It's restoring and preserving these beautiful vintage drums That basically every episode is about so and I know you're the guy to talk to you have quite the experience and keeping these These beautiful drums from disappearing from the earth Thank you Yeah, so I just think you have a really cool way of looking at the whole process of just not letting drums disappear And I think a lot of people might be interested in your process and what you do And if if you find a drum set that's just about to fall apart and it's you know, how do you keep things around? Yeah, sure Well, I think what I what I do here is is a mixture of different things really but I mean It is primarily a drum restoration and repair business and that covers The kinds of drums I'm working on range from very very old things to very recent things Obviously the more recent things The more recently made things. I'm not restoring them per se I'll be doing sort of modifications or adjustments or emergency repairs to them But the older things things pre 1980 or thereabouts, which I I think most sort of collectors agree is where The sort of term vintage drums doesn't really apply to things that are made maybe After the 1980s or I mean it gets pushed along a little bit further all the time and we see people now collecting You know 80s tarmas and 80s pearl kits and stuff. They're starting to they have some kind of a Appeal to them for some group of people and I guess in another 20 years those will be classic instruments of their own But the majority of what I do here is repairing restoring Vintage gear 1969 in 50s kits a lot of that kind of stuff awesome and making a couple of ancillary sort of products as well to Use as part of that restoration or sellers standalone things such as drum heads that I make But I mean the way that I came to start doing this I guess was that I I started out as a drummer And then I sort of just ended up on this side of the industry because I tinkered for a long time restoring things while I was studying music and initially aspiring to be a working player That didn't work out exactly how I hoped it would but I'm not really too disappointed about that because I think where I ended up Is where I sort of prefer to be sure. Yeah, so yeah, I mean so so that's sort of that's sort of how I got into it I started as a drummer and After I finished my degree I sort of just Started to focus more on repairing and restoring things and a lot of the drummers that I knew From my time playing and studying music Started to bring jobs to me to repair and it sort of grew from there And I think now the sort of point we're at in history I mean obviously these older instruments are only getting older all the time and that makes them in a way more desirable for people and The rarer they get and the older they get The more people want to have them or want to look after them I think there's a shift with people starting to think a little bit more about Older instruments as being a usable Working thing that they can not only sort of admire as some Artifact from the past but something that they can actually use to record with and something they can use to tour with and I don't think that happened quite so much. I mean Specifically we're talking about drums. So I don't think that happened quite so much Even 10 or 20 years ago. I think that that's really sort of coming into its own at the moment Um, and I hope it stays around forever. I think that um, definitely people are starting to um Develop a new set of values towards older instruments, which is really good to see and I guess that's something that's Created a need for the kind of work that I do. Yeah, definitely now I think it would be really interesting for you to kind of tell us. Um, I've done some You know tinkering myself a little bit, but when I see what people like you do It's like, all right. This is the real deal. Like I've never done bearing edges. I'm terrified to drill holes Why don't you kind of tell us a little bit about like what that process is like if someone were to uh, maybe stumble upon like let's say 50s I think that's you know That 60s stuff is you find it and it's still in pretty good shape But like maybe I stumble upon a 50s um slingerland kit or Ludwig or something and it's not in good shape What should I do like what would be? Um and assuming people have the skills, but I would just like to know your process a little bit about how you Bring it back to be a player I think before you do anything to a drum kit as a restorer You have to make a series of decisions and there's kind of a hierarchy to the way those decisions need to be made um The first thing I would look at if someone brought me a drum kit. So we'll use your example of something from the 1950s The biggest thing that can be done to an old kit to affect its value or to affect its appearance is Is removing or changing the wrap or the finish around the drums and I mean a drum kit is a huge sort of um It's a huge canvas to display Art or an image or a color bigger than pretty much any other instrument you'd have on a stage, you know Except maybe like a grand piano, maybe but you You don't see grand pianos dressed up the same way as you see drum kits unless you're elton john or something You know most grand pianos look more or less the same. Yeah I think he had one covered in astro turf or something. Yeah, like shag velvet shagpauk up it But most people don't have that but most people that have a drum kit They do have a drum kit that looks kind of interesting and has like a sparkle finish or a pearl finish or uh, you know An interesting sort of uh inlay or lack of fade Drum kits look one looks very different from another And that's that's been happening from the very beginning of the invention of the instrument very early on um drum kits Were changing color all the time and companies were bringing out new colors and new wraps and new ways of sort of Uh inlaying or overlaying the wraps. Um, and you know, we think what we have now is sort of we have We obviously have a lot of variety of different drum builders and different drum wrap and color options and stuff But if you go back to the 1920s and 30s, this was an era where drum kits also looked really amazing And and they were changing these wrap colors all the time Um, because the drummer back then was a real showman a real show person um That you know, this is the vaudeville and silent film kind of era where Drama had this massive sort of kit and I know, you know, people like kelly have talked to you a lot about this This kind of thing all the sort of the traps the bells and whistles and sound effects and stuff that they had to carry with them and There was a lot of work for drummers and um, I guess there would have been some element Which probably still exists now to a lesser extent of having the bigger more showy kit might get you the gig in a way and and consequently you see um A lot of the a lot of the kits that were made in those days in the 20s and 30s the colors changed so quickly that Not too many were made in any single color Of course, there were some colors that really did stand the test of time and just you know kept being produced again and again but there were some really unusual things that were brought out like Lady had a color called oriental pearl. I have some drums in that finish It's it's exceedingly rare and then there's things like the autographs of the stars finish that lady brought out Which had all these sort of I don't know if you're familiar with that one It's sort of like a light blue color with all these sort of yeah literally the the autographs of various well-known drummers all over it and There's things like the the Ludwig top hat and cane finish now some of these Raps if you're a collector or you're enthusiastic about vintage drums People will Will know those those raps or have seen an image of it and know that those things are rare But I think what some people don't realize is just how rare Those raps are and I mean top hat and cane. I think I'm not sure exactly what the number is But there's there's it's something like seven or ten complete kits known to still exist In the world of in that rap So it was only made for you know, let's say one year or something and then they decided that wasn't fashionable anymore Make something else and who could possibly have predicted That that would have gone on to become some coveted Collectible thing in the future No, nobody would have thought that back in the 1920s and 30s But of course now we look at these things like it's just the absolute Holy Grail of Collectible drums, right? Yeah um You can't necessarily say the same thing about a 1960s super classic in silver sparkler I think that's still an amazing beautiful Precious thing that should be preserved and looked after but of course far more of those were produced than these Some of these rare 1920s outfits in rare finishes But the first decision getting back to your question and the first decision you have to make when a drum kit comes in is Um is based on for me that rap is the original rap still in place And is the original rap in good condition? um In good or insalvageable condition and if it is salvageable And if it hasn't had any major modifications made to it such as the big one is extra holes being drilled um And if it's not, you know covered in cracks or splits and it hasn't sort of drastically faded beyond um A restorable point then I would usually encourage my clients to Have me preserve what they've got rather than change the rap Can you make a rap that's faded? Look better You can with some types of raps you you can improve their appearance if they're they're faded um Now different drum raps are constructed in in different ways. So you have you have a few different categories You have your sparkle raps. You have pearl raps um You have oyster raps and then you have flat colors as well Sparkle raps that can the way sparkle raps are constructed is that they're they're three Layers, there's three different layers there. There's a but there's a backing material Which is usually white or black and then you have your sparkles over the top Which with only a couple of exceptions is always a silver sparkle silver glitter or silver fleck And then the color the color that forms green sparkle or gold sparkle or blue sparkle comes from The the third layer the top translucent film which has a tint to it So if you take that top layer off all of these sparkles look exactly the same They're all silver sparkle So silver sparkle, by the way, is just a clear layer over the top. So you're seeing you're seeing the color of the the silver glitter underneath um But all of those other colors come from the top layer one one exception to that is champagne sparkle Which is actually formed with with a mixture of silver glitter and copper actual copper flakes Um, and then with a clear layer over the top again So these these sparkle finishes it's not it's not easy to restore them once the once discoloration has occurred Once that top clear layer starts to yellow, which happens over time We've all seen a silver sparkle drum kit that started to look like, you know, like ginger ale It's sometimes referred to where it's kind of yellowed That's very very hard to return back to silver On the other hand when you have oyster wraps or um pearl wraps black pearl white pearl these kind of things Um, the way they're constructed is like I use this analogy sometimes to explain it to people of imagining like a salami um So you have this the way they used to make them. I mean the way they still make them is They sort of form a giant Pool of molten plastics and when that plastic reaches sort of The kind of appearance they want in terms of the mix of these different bits all being swelled together Obviously if you mix something together too much, it's going to just turn into a big One single flat color. So they're letting different bits of plastic dissolve in this sort of soup until it's just bordering on melting into one thing But not quite it still has some sort of separation to it Then cooling it down into this giant big solid block And then running that block through imagine like a big sort of deli slicer machine Basically just taking veneers off the block And that's what gives these pearl wraps this sense of kind of um dimension to it this sense of this sense of depth You know when you look at a 60s oyster wrap or a 60s pearl wrap It looks like there are some bits further back than others in it And you know some bits are sort of reflecting the light in different ways and it's a very beautiful thing Now these pearl and oyster wraps the real advantage of them being um constructed in that way is that Because the material of the wrap runs all the way from the front to the back without this separation of different layers that you have with the sparkle wraps If the outer face of it starts to yellow or fade You can actually polish away that top layer and work backwards to some of the um The the wrap beneath which is still in perfectly good condition and the way I go about that is by sanding it Um, I mean you'd be there all day if you just were trying to polish that with a Rag or with a sure buffing machine. You need to be be quite abrasive about it. But I mean that's a That's a pretty harsh Thing to undertake on your your drum kit start sanding a way of the wrap It's definitely something you need some sort of experience and understanding of the technique to do it and when you're sanding It's it's easy enough to start sanding away that that yellow and That that yellow sort of hazing or fading and get down to the wrap beneath The hard thing is then to get rid of all your sanding lines and bring it back to a nice glossy polish looking fillet finish And make it look like you were never you were never there in the first place And that's something that just takes a little bit of time and practice and it involves You know starting with a coarse sandpaper and then moving through finer and finer and finer ones all the way up to finishing off with a polishing with a A buffing machine or a hand polish as well to get that glossy sort of luster back So some some wraps can be restored in that way, but but not all of them unfortunately Um So that's that's one way that a wrap can be restored in terms of preserving it. They're they're a different definitely things people can do to sort of reduce the chances of their wrap deteriorating and a classic A classic one is leaving a drum kit set up next to a window that might have sun coming through it Um on a regular basis and I mean the uv has a big effect on drum wraps It can make them shrink depending on Again different wraps react differently to to heat and um uv, but oyster wraps are really prone to shrinking and splitting and cracking Um and some other wraps are really prone to going yellow if they're exposed to uv like we were just talking about so Making sure you're storing your drums well and traveling with your drums well and not leaving them set up in sunny or hot spots These are things that will really slow the deterioration Um of a drum kit If you still have your original wrap in place and it's not completely ruined It's it's always something I would do is to try and encourage people to to maintain that wrap if they can um In terms of that hierarchy. I was sort of talking about before I guess The next the next level after you've sort of after you've sort of assessed the wrap and gone Okay, we've got the original wrap in place The next thing to check for is is extra holes and extra holes is something that's so common on vintage kits because of course Back in the 50s and 60s the the kind of hardware that most of the companies were making Uh, although it looked great and had a nice sort of style to it It really was no match for the hardware that came along in the the 80s in terms of its strength and durability and um I mean we're talking about when companies like pearl and tarma really upped their game in the beginning of the 80s And started to become serious players in the the western market, which they which they weren't so much Prior to that And the kinds of hardware they released Was was quite different to what companies like Ludwig and gretch and rogers and ledi had been producing in the earlier half of the 20th century and it was A logical step for a lot of people to go well, why wouldn't I drill a hole in the top of my bass drum and and put this pearl Omni mount or whatever on there and hang the toms off that because that's going to be a lot stronger And a lot of people wouldn't have thought at the time that they'd be I mean probably no one at the time Would have been thinking this is going to have a detrimental effect on the collectibility of this drum in another 30 or 40 years time. Yeah Um, and you know, you know, we were talking about top hat and cane kits before I remember seeing like four or five years ago don bennett in um, seattle He had a top hat and cane kit for sale on on his website Um And it it had been It had been drilled at some point for a pearl optimao. Can you can you imagine? Can you imagine that happening? Like if you could just go back in time and just be there and and find the person that did that and just say to them Listen, I know you don't realize it now But what you're doing to this drum is the is is a crime against humanity And you you have to stop um But but you know people didn't think about that and and you it's not reasonable to expect that they that they should have either because um, people don't necessarily think about that now with the drums that are being made now. Um And I mean who knows in 50 years time if drums that are being made in 2019 are going to be as desirable or as um revered As 1960s drums are or 1950s drums are now. I don't think they necessarily are but nevertheless People still It's very hard for them to picture the future or something going on to become a collectible or anything like that. So yeah, sure these extra holes are absolutely The the presence of extra holes is just so ubiquitous with vintage drums You you see it all the time that they've been drilled for a mount or the addition of a a muffler or Yeah, all sorts of things also on snare drums, you know a lot of changes with strainers and butts and stuff like that um So that's sort of the next level in that hierarchy of decision making. So once once I've sort of assessed the original raps there um And I've made a decision. Well, okay, the original raps there. I should probably preserve it if that original rap is present But it's got extra holes in it because someone's drilled it for some mounts or something like that Then it's easier to justify um Any decision or inclination from a client to want to re-wrap it or to change the finish all together Once that originality has been taken away by the holes being Drilled that's when you can start to move down a different path towards perhaps changing things slightly Um, and when I mean, I've spent a lot of time over the years I mean, I guess I spend less time on there now than I did in my younger days But but over the years I've spent a lot of time on on forums with people talking about vintage drums and just listening to collectors and Seeing the stuff that they're sort of showing each other and the stuff they've been working on So I've developed sort of a sense of Of what what this hierarchy is what this order of events is or or these things that you can do or Should or shouldn't do to a drum kit? um in terms of preserving maintaining its value um And definitely the two big ones are Changes to the rap and the presence of extra holes now. Do you fill various holes from time to time? Like let's say I want to keep My rap and there's some holes. Would you plug them? Or and I guess that question also goes for if you're going to re-wrap You would then go through the process of plugging the holes. I would imagine Yeah, absolutely So once um, if you do have extra holes and and you've decided that you you're going to fill them or let's say You're going to strip the rap off and and and re-wrap it then definitely at that point that those holes are going to get plugged And I see a lot of drums come in here that have had some restoration work Or perhaps some attempted restoration work done on them in the past and of course a lot of a lot of that is DIY work it hasn't come from another restorer necessarily um And there are a lot of different ways of plugging up holes But it's it's something that's not easy to do In a very good way unless you have all the right tools So you see a lot of holes that have been plugged up with you know, we would call it here bog But it's it's like a body filler that the car guys would use or the builders would use Um, it's a very chalky kind of material and it's it's a fragile material as well It's not designed to just fill in a hole It can just be pushed straight out of that hole with not very much force You know, it's like that forms a little plug that can just be popped straight out But you see a lot of that going on and you see a lot of um on smaller holes people just cutting off sections of dowel and putting them in the problem with cutting sections off dowel is that The grain is running in totally a different direction to what grain runs on the drum the the plug needs to be cut um in the Opposite direction to that So that that involves special cutting tools which cut out perfect circles And a lot of the time the the holes that you're plugging won't be perfectly round either So it would usually be necessary to actually drill out that hole to make it A nice sharp perfectly round hole with a very crisp edge to it Before putting your matching sized plug in there um, if it's not a round hole, you know, one example is um Gretch stop sign era Gretch drums, you know, they had these tom mounts that was sort of like a ball joint kind of thing going on um If you take one of those off the drum the hole that's actually there is more of sort of like a rounded Rectangle kind of almost like a racetrack kind of tablet shape Um to fill that hole you can't cut a perfect circle for that you you need to cut Something by hand so there is there is sometimes a need to to cut out a plug That's sort of a very bizarre kind of shape and I would I would do that by sort of Holding my piece of donor donor shell up on the inside of the the hole and then tracing it So I've marked out the actual shape i'm cutting and then using a small tool called scroll saw which can cut out um A very intricate little shape so then i'm making a sort of odd odd size to odd shape plug to fit into that hole All of that would happen before the new wrap went on if the if the job was a rewrap job. Um, and then Uh, yeah glued into position sanded back so it was perfectly flush and then once that wrap's gone over the top of that You would never even know it was there usually with any plug no matter how well you do it From the inside of the drum it's it's going to be um possible to to locate it and see it Unless the interiors are being repainted Um, and in the case of 1960s Ludwig drums they had quite a thick white paint on the inside So sometimes it's possible to to hide it That way it's about really doing the best you can to make things invisible and as tidy as possible So if they are If somebody's going to see it I want them to look at it and say well, yeah Of course, I can see that this hole's been plugged, but it looks like it's been done. Well. Yeah, I don't I don't want That to look at it and say oh, I can see this person's plugged a hole with a You know with plaster of paris or something Yeah Yeah, cool. That's not a joke. I've seen I've seen that I'm sure you've seen everything you see these things that pop up and people do stuff. I've seen it all Yeah, I've seen it all. Wow. Um, I mean look as as well, you know I was saying before like you can't criticize people for For drilling holes in their drums back in the old days. Um, I think the same can be said about people making a DIY attempt at Filling a hole or something like that people are trying to do the best with the equipment that they have on hand and So and you know, that's part of my job is not only fixing things that haven't ever been repaired before It's fixing things that someone might have had a go at trying to repair But just not not been able to do it that well with the tools or the skills That they had at hand so plugging holes is is definitely another big thing that happens and My you know moving along on that sort of hierarchy of decision-making Once you've once you've sort of observed that things like the wrap have been changed or holes have been drilled in a Drum, that's when you're sort of in a position where it's like, okay. Well I've got kind of a blank canvas here. I can kind of do whatever I want For this person So if somebody's coming to me with a drum and saying, oh, I want to have this Re-wrapped in a new color I would need to assess those things first because if the drum was in perfect condition I would really try and I think I have kind of a duty as a restorer to kind of Make people aware of what they've got not just to do whatever they tell me to do And of course, ultimately they have the the final decision. It's their drums. It's not about me having my way But it's sort of about me making sure they're Educated if they're if they're not really sure what it is They've got making sure they know all of the things they need to know before they make a decision And usually the vast majority of people that come here with drums for me to restore will Will be open and receptive to that that I don't really get people turning up saying I want this wrapped in um Purple sparkle no matter what and I don't care what you say. You're doing it. They want to know people. Yeah Yeah, you're doing it. Shut up. Shut up. They want to know that they're they're hungry for information if they don't already have it um And they want they usually want to do the right thing by the instrument So it's a nice position to be I mean, it's it's always sad to see drums that have had these These things done to them that that have taken away from their originality, but for me as a restorer You know, I wouldn't have a lot to do if I was only brought drums that were in mint conditional day long So it's an exciting moment for me to be to be brought something that's in this state where it might have a lot of extra holes Or it might have had the original rap Taken off it and replaced with something else or not replaced with any new rap at all That gives me a nice sort of blank slate. It means I can start at a point of going. Okay, great. We we need to work back to getting this Um, towards looking how it would have looked Um, when it left the factory 50 60 years ago or whatever Um, and in terms of putting new wraps on, you know, a thing I see a lot with drums that have already been rewrapped once Is that they they get wrapped in colors that Were not an option with that with that brand or in that era for that brand Yeah, so you try and stay true to the actual Piece of I think you should stay true to to the to the brand and to the to the era as well for sure It's it's something I think it's really important and usually when I suggest that to someone they would they would always go with that It I think it just looks ridiculous not to Um, definitely it's it's yeah, it's the bit like we were saying at the beginning It's the biggest thing you can do to a drum kit to change its appearance is to Take the wrap off put a new wrap on or change the paint or whatever that that's the biggest thing you can do Everybody's going to see that. Yeah. Um, and of course your your average person On the street is not going to know or care what color your drum kit is or whether that is uh, was an offering from wfl in 1957 or whatever but But people that are collectors or interested in vintage drums do know that stuff and um I and I think the community of people that that know and understand that stuff is getting bigger even though It's a tiny community of people. I think that that's getting a little bit bigger all the time Um, so yeah, I think it's important definitely to steer people towards Period correct colors and that the really great thing is that there are still a lot of those colors still being manufactured And they are really decent replications of of the originals I mean, unfortunately some of them are long long gone or the the replications that are being made are just really Not the same an example of that is the the classic ringo finish the the um oyster black pearl I don't know why it's so hard for them to achieve it But the the oyster black pearl it's being made now It just it just does not look the same as what 60s oyster really looks like it doesn't have that same depth But curiously the the pearl the pearl finishes like white marine pearl and black diamond pearl Um, they really do look like the 60s ones do they're really decent Replications of them and the same goes for the sparkle finishes. There's almost no difference whatsoever. So those are really great options. Um, I mean They don't suit every brand but in terms of ludwig and wfl slingerland They were using A lot of the same wraps these pearls and sparkle finishes through the 50s and 60s So so there are there are definitely a go-to Option that I would offer people and I have you know hundreds of swatch samples here that I can show to people So they can choose and get a sense for Um, what kind of wrap Might be an option for them. Now. Do you think it's it's It is important for someone like if if you were going to rewrap someone's set with a you know period correct wrap Do you think then if that person sells that drum set they need to note? To whoever buys it. This is a rewrap. This is not original if that buyer can't Tell do you see that as being like something that you need to um like information you need to divulge to the the buyer Or what's your thoughts on that? Absolutely. I think you should um Yeah, I think you absolutely have a duty The there's no real rules is there when when you're selling something on on ebay or gumtree or a forum or whatever if you don't I think what's really a crime is if you say this is in original condition when it's definitely not and it's a Rerap then you're being dishonest and and that's that's not okay If you put something up and say hey, I've got this 1965 drum kit for sale And you don't mention that it's a rewrap well Yeah, I mean it's a little bit sneaky, but also the the the onus is on the the buyer to sort of understand what they're looking at Or to ask questions. Yeah And Yeah, I mean look I've had I think that's really the way it should work and the way people sell things there You're obviously trying to sell your item and make the most that you can out of it And that's your prerogative as the seller. So that's okay But I think if you're saying that something's original and hasn't been changed when it definitely has and we've all seen that kind of Stuff go on online. That's that's not okay now But I think the great thing now, you know, it's sort of the the place the marketplace for second hand equipment Used to be ebay And that's just really not the case anymore. I mean that it is it still exists, of course, but Um the real place that it's happening now is on facebook is on forums And we were all we were all told, you know, sort of five or ten years ago Oh, that will never work because there's no safety net there Like who's gonna save you if something goes wrong You need to have this sort of fabric of the the ebay Protection umbrella or whatever you want to call it but the the power of the the mob is Is is a is a mighty thing and um people people on these forums vouch for one another and they shame one another Something doesn't work out. Absolutely. You know, it's There's a good side and a bad side to that but the good side is that it actually Overwhelmingly is a is a pretty reliable place for people to buy stuff. Yeah Yeah, especially if it's within your sort of community or within your your country you know, it's you're taking a bit more of a risk when you start sort of going overseas, I guess but um, yeah, that that's where people are doing their buying and selling and I have seen people on there do things that are really dishonest and I've also seen the The mob come along and um rip those people to pieces and then that's sort of the end of their selling career, you know yeah, no, I regularly see guys like Brooks teggler on the um Slingerling group who goes on ebay and posts. This is not a 1959 radio king Yeah, it's like it's like he's he's the watch the watch dog or people like that where they say watch out This isn't real and um, I was involved in a rogers game that was happening on uh on facebook And like 15 people said oh that guy said he was gonna sell it to me He said he was gonna sell it to me and this guy I don't know what his angle was. He was just trying to get people to buy this rogers set and everyone was like Well, this isn't real and we all kind of came together and said, okay Let's not do that. This guy's sketchy. We found it out together and uh, it's great. It's the community And it works right and we never none of us thought that that was possible Even only a few years ago We thought oh if you don't have sort of the safety of PayPal and everything then so many things could go wrong and It's you know, it's the internet. It's I don't really know why but it's scary and it's not gonna You know, we just shouldn't do it. We just need to use ebay But that's just not the case anymore and it really is working out fine And it's it's it's it's thanks to guys like Brooks doing that as well that sort of keep it You need people doing that differently so that the people that are do think that they can get away with some scam They just won't ultimately, you know, some some years ago Five five or six years ago I I had a guy that I I did quite a bit of work for and the work was always him bringing me orphan shells And sort of piecing together kits that were rewraps and they were made of sort of bits and pieces That were never a kit to begin with but you know Going back to what you were saying a moment ago It was sort of like as far as I was aware anyway, this was all declared and it was above board and it's like Yeah, he's not pitching a an original condition kit to someone But it still has a sound and it still has a vibe and it's you know Suits a working player or a studio owner or something like that and there's a market for this particular thing and it's fine and then one day he asked me if I would Take a slingerland bass drum. He had a couple of Ludwig toms. He wanted me to Plug the lug holes on the slingerland bass drum and drill it for Ludwig lugs and Do a rewrap on it and repaint the interior so there was absolutely no evidence of the plugs at all And then badge it with a Ludwig badge so that it could match up with these toms And that was the last time I worked for him I told him that I I wouldn't I wouldn't do it because it was you know I considered that highly unethical to be to be a part of that Geez, it's like a rebirth thing. It's like a drum rebirth thing. You know, it's like totally Wow Yeah, well, I mean Some I I could have done it and I could have made it look good, but it would have just been It's the wrong thing to do and Yeah, it's sort of a lazy a lazy way of making money as well I think to to throw things together like that rather than trying to find an actual Ludwig bass drum But um, no, yeah, definitely that stuff does go on and I think definitely there is There's there's a responsibility that a seller has to make certain declarations But there's also You know, you have to educate yourself as a buyer And there's a lot of places that you can you can get that information online now by joining these forums Or just hanging around like I did for years before I started actually working in restoration myself Yeah, no, I take listening to the I take comfort knowing that you're using your powers for good and not for evil and uh, and I so far so far. I'm only young, you know, but so far. I'm only using it for good. Yeah, maybe later Maybe you'll switch we'll see. Yeah, we'll see when I'm old and jaded. Yeah, we'll carry on with your hierarchy here So we got um the rewrapping we got hole drilling you're checking for where do we go from there? Okay, so another big one is the bearing edges and this this is a thing that I think it it falls In terms of the in terms of the the hierarchy, there's no denying that bearing edges is Is probably the third thing there that can be done to a set of vintage drums that might affect um The likelihood of a collector wanting to buy it because it does change the the originality of it The reason I think bearing edges are a little bit of a gray area Is that the way bearing edges were cut? Up until I'd say well with some companies it still continues but um Really up until sort of sometime in the 70s I don't think anybody was cutting bearing edges that were really very good at all and there was less uh Understanding I think about what a bearing edge really did for a drum and But there was also less Or perhaps even no expectation from the customer that the bearing edges would be in good condition and Probably no understanding from them either of of how that really affected the tuning or the tone of the drums, but Now that we do have the and I really think that the by the way, I think the Japanese Absolutely pushed pushed us along on that front into a world where having bearing edges that were cut well was considered um normal and And reasonable to expect because you know up until of course these these companies like pearl and um Tama or Hoshino before that um And yamaha they they've been around for a long time and they they made some some pretty cool looking stuff back in the 60s as well And then of course we had the era of the stencil kits. I know you you did a really cool episode on Made in japan stencil kits But they're they're game for a long time through the 60s and 70s was sort of kind of sort of creating sort of a Sort of I guess you would call them knockoff versions of american kits They were quite cheaply made the the shells weren't made out of particularly good wood The castings for the the lugs and the other hardware were were pretty sort of um Cheap and nasty compared to the quality of the american gear And then all of a sudden we get to the 80s and um that all kind of changed and they started making Drums that were of a really high quality and were starting to be used and endorsed by western musicians Which of course made a big difference and made them serious players in the The marketplace But the quality of what they produced and the level of detail they go to I think was something a little bit different to the americans and the british in some areas and bearing edges is one that i definitely notice and um, I still see that all the times a day like if you take a yamaha stage custom or A pearl export, which obviously a lower line, you know, it's sort of pretty much entry level for those two brands um If I take the heads off that and place the drum on its bearing edge on a surface plate, so a surface plate is like a A dead flat Tile or a granite slab in some cases that an engineer or a machinist or something might have to check That something's absolutely level or straight And I have one of those here for placing drums on and if a bearing edge isn't good And you put a drum on there and then shine a torch down inside the drum you'll see light coming through Dips and arcs and dents in the bearing edge And if it's really bad, you can even you know place your hand on On one side of the the top edge and you'll find that the drum rocks because it's not sitting flat on the the tile Um, but what I've noticed is these pearl exports and stage customs. They usually have pretty much perfect bearing edges interesting It's the the thing is if you have the tooling to cut a bearing edge Which all of these drum factories have and which I have in my workshop also There's it's no easier or harder to cut a good or bad bearing edge If you have the tooling you might as well just cut a good one Um, and it's it's a real mystery why in the old days They they didn't really quite get that one thing. I I think was a contributing factor is that um I'm not sure if the top of my head how Ludwig was cutting their bearing edges back in the The 50s and 60s But I know with slingerland the way they cut them was that they actually had the drum on this sort of lathe apparatus where the drum was sort of on its side Um spinning around and somebody would hold a laving tool against the bearing edge to form that contour to form that profile Rather than running it running it around A router which is mounted in a table The advantage of doing it on the router table is that there's absolutely No way as long as you've got everything true and level to begin with there's really no way that you can wreck that edge once you've got it to that stage because your table is level and your router bit is kind of tracing the edge of the Drum shell when you're doing it on this strange sort of lathe apparatus you can end up with some weird dips in it um now after after sort of after beetle mania took off and um And I mean we all know the impact that that had on the Ludwig drum company um the Ludwig was just producing drums so fast and in such great quantities that I mean there's a lot of stories, but the The the general consensus is that quality control went out the window a little bit after 1964 and drums were just going out the door fast Yeah, I mean there's probably a bit of exaggeration to these stories But also there's no doubt that that it had a massive impact on on their business and production really skyrocketed And um, I see a lot of Ludwig toms from that era come in here and I'll place them on this surface plate This checking tile that I was telling you about before and I've seen Without without any exaggeration here I've seen dips in bearing edges that are that are as extreme as a snare bed on the on the bottom of a snare drum And and that's that's in like in a 12 inch tom, you know, and that just shouldn't be there now In terms of that hierarchy I was talking about if you have bearing edges that are that bad Is it What's the right thing to do there? Should you should you preserve that that terrible poorly cut thing that's making it very hard to tune your heads um just for the sake of preserving the originality or Should you have them recut so that they're perfect and then you can stick a head on there and get the drum tuned up and sounding phenomenal in You know a minute It's that's that's a hard decision to make and I think there's there's a real gray area there Before you go on can you just so everyone is on the same page give a brief kind of scientific description Of what the bearing edge does just so everyone's on the same page What that actually does for the drum And why it would be such a big deal like what it would affect. So what is the purpose of a bearing edge? sure I think that there's a lot of there's a lot of science and there's also a lot of pseudoscience behind the The sort of function the purpose of a bearing edge and what they do I think some of it is a little bit of marketing hype and that's happening more now than it was in the old days in the old days, I I don't think there was any talk about bearing edges like when I've looked through old catalogs or old sort of Like old magazines like leady drum topics and some of these sort of gizettes that were put out by companies in the The early 20th century. They don't talk about the bearing edges, you know, or here's this latest like Solid mahogany shell with a round over 45 to give you this kind of sound But nowadays it really is something that gets talked about or it gets mentioned in most Um drum magazines or drum advertisements or if you go to a trade show or something It's something that they'll talk about as a selling point for their drums So I think part of it's marketing hype and I think part of it's real and the the bit that's real is that different what the bearing edge does is it transfers the vibrations of the drum head into the shell and The rounder that a bearing edge is the more of a muted warm tone you're going to get From your drum and the sharper the bearing edge is I mean this is this is in the most simple kind of terms The sharper it is the more projection you're going to get from the drum The more of a head sound you're going to get the more the drum just becomes a vessel for projecting The the vibration of this head and that's the philosophy that sonor really has and the way they've always marketed themselves is that That that's what the drum is doing. It's just a resonant chamber for the the drum heads and their bearing edges Are subsequently very sharp But up until the 70s most companies weren't really making drums with sharp bearing edges They were making them with quite round edges and then you know as we started to move into this era of like stadium rock or Or much bigger concerts where things needed to be louder and equipment just wasn't made to to deal with it like I mean, I'm sure you've seen that footage of the Beatles playing at Shea Stadium you know, it's like it's the beginning of it's the beginning of Bands getting so big that they need to play in baseball Yeah stadiums. Yeah, and they just do not have the equipment for it And they're like they're relaying the sound of the band through the the baseball Announce a like the thing that plays the Like that thing is what that's what's taking the sound of the Beatles up to the the back of the stadium it's like totally ridiculous and um, you know and There's no such thing as proper drum mics or any of that of any of that kind of stuff So as we move into the 70s Things got re-engineered a little bit to try and make them louder The focus was just about like let's try and make this stuff louder and with the drums apart from making The size is a bit bigger. The other thing they did was change the bearing edge just to a sharp profile Which just aided projection a little bit um So there's definitely a difference there between and I find that all the time now people will bring me even modern drums Whether maybe they just don't quite like the sound they're getting with a sharp bearing edge So we might switch it to a rounder bearing edge or or vice versa The thing that I think is just a bit of Marketing hype or it's become marketing hype, but it wasn't really in the old days It was just the different factories had different tools or different ways of doing things Um is the different angles that they might have used on this this inner cut So, you know, generally with most bearing edges, there are some exceptions, but with most bearing edges you have Uh, it's a combination of an inner and an outer cut So on coming from the outside of the shell you might have a rounded sort of bullnose kind of profile and on the inside you you have a 45 degree cut I mean, this is this is an example of a Ludwig roundover edge from the 1960s round over 45 we call it So the edge that's contacting the drum head is the round part The bit that's not contacting the drum head is the 45 degree cut on the inside of the drum Which just sort of gradually tapers away into the resonant chamber that is the inside of the drum shell Uh, now Gretz used used a 30 degree Inside cut and if you look at some British companies from that era, they were using even shallower ones like 15 degree or 20 degree Um, I think the differences in sound that you would get doing a 30 degree roundover or a 45 degree roundover Are probably imperceptible to most people I think really the only reason that was happening is that just different factories had different stuff And I think that's the case with things like interior paints as well And of course, they've become synonymous in a way with certain brands Or we think of Gretz with their silver sealer and they you know, each company spins some story about how that affects their sound If you could scientifically analyze these things with um, some some kind of machines or whatever Then maybe there would be some difference that this particular paint created Compared to some other one, but that's not why they were doing it It's just they one day started using silver paint and that became the Gretz thing and now they keep doing it and that's that's perfectly acceptable Um, and I think it's the same story with bearing edges as well So it functioned the bearing edges to transfer the vibrations into the drum shell and the different the different shape A different shaped edge will do that in a different way and give you a different sort of sound And I think the nice thing about a round edge is that it really brings out the full tone of the wood of the drum that your Shells are made out of and in the case of 1960s Ludwig's that was three ply mahogany mahogany poplar mahogany or in some cases mahogany poplar maple um, and there's a real rich timbre to those drums most people I'm sure would agree and um a part of what brings out that beautiful richness is those Round over edges So when people do make that decision to recut much in the same way as the the sort of rewrap decision that we were talking about before I would always encourage people if we do go down the path of recutting Let's not put as you know a sharp 45 like yamaha style edge on this 1960s Ludwig downbeat Let's make sure we're true to the era and cut the edge that it always had But just cut it the way it should have been cut to begin with so it's a nice perfect looking 60s edge And the reality is that even though that does affect the originality in some way The majority of people want their drums to be playable Now it would be a very very different thing if somebody brought me, you know, let's use that top hat and cane example again If somebody brought me a top hat and cane kit There's absolutely no way in the world We'd be going about doing anything to that that would affect the originality and that includes the bearing edge Just because it's just that's a museum piece. It's a collectible. It's not something for taking out on the road And anybody that owns that is not going to be doing that with it. No, it's a different thing though with the 60 super classics because there's a lot more of them around Yeah, got it. Got it. No, that's fascinating now This is going to be probably a stupid question. But how like how many times can you actually Redo the bearing edges because you have to be shaving off some of the drum Are you losing any of the the actual like dimension of the drum there? Is that that makes sense? Is that a thing? Yeah, you are and so you have to work to the lowest point. So if you imagine, you know, I was describing a moment ago this Atom a tom shell that had a dip in its bearing edge as deep as a snare bed So, you know, it was it was honestly about about three millimeters depth. So what's that like an eighth of an inch? Yeah That's a that's pretty extreme But that the low point of that that three millimeter depression in the edge, that's going to be the new highest point That's what I have to work to so that the first step in in preparing to recut a bearing edge Is getting everything on the same level plane which involves, you know, I have this Again, a very dead flat table setup that's covered in a huge sheet of sandpaper And the drum gets turned against that Until everything is taken down to that lowest point until everything's on that same level plane. So that's called truing the shell Once it's true, then you can move to the router table and start cutting the new profile on there And that will remove the sort of flatness that you've created by through the sanding process So To answer your question in and using that example that would take three millimeters depth of the drum But that's very extreme and the reality is that most drums don't don't have issues quite that bad So the the amount you would be reducing the depth of the drum by would be very very small and Recutting bearing edges is not something that needs to happen, you know again and again throughout the life of a drum It usually happens because they were cut very badly to begin with or because someone's decided that they're not quite getting the sound that they want out of their drum and Um, perhaps changing wanting to change to a different profile Or I might have advised them to change to a different profile. Sure It's it's not something that you need to worry about Oh, well, what's going to happen when I come back the next three times to get the bearing edges recut and my drum's just going to Slowly turn into piccolo's or Yeah, that it's it's nothing to be concerned about and and even in the most extreme case where you do have this sort of extreme Um, this kind of very deep snare bed esk Dip in the bearing edge It's you're you're still not really losing that much Got it off the off the depth, you know, it's it's not going to have a detrimental effect on things. Cool. Where do we go from? bearing edges, so I think those are really the main key Things in terms of the decisions you have to make when facing a restoration on a drum kit I mean, there's a lot of other smaller sort of Factors that I might encounter along the way and then there are some other sort of gray areas as well So I mean along with the bearing edges which are a bit of a gray area Another one that I see collectors debating about a lot is the repainting of bass drum hoops The problem with bass drum hoops, I mean With some companies they're still made the same way today, but in particular back Up until the you know, sort of the end of the 70s the kind of paints that they used on Bass drum hoops for most companies was not particularly durable And even with a very durable hoop Even with a very durable paint rather on a hoop They're so prone to to damage because we're clamping our pedals on there You might be clamping cowbells on the top or tapping your sticks on there When you're carrying a bass drum around it's it's an awkward ungainly thing that you likely to bump into doors with The the hoops end up chipped. They end up damaged and chipped very very easily Once a kit has been fully restored a thing that can really let down its overall appearance is having really kind of ratty looking Hoops on there that haven't been refinished And again, if it's something that's Very very collectible and very very rare You would preserve whatever you're working with But in the case of things that are slightly more generic or more common like a A 1960s slingerland or gretch or Ludwig Repainting the hoops is something that I see people debating all the time But it seems to me that the majority of collectors tend to be okay with the idea of the hoops being refinished because that has been An opinion of people I think for a very long time and and hoops have been repainted often a number of times throughout their existence I see that a lot when when these old kits come in for restoration. You can see it's very easy to tell when hoops have been repainted Once or often even more times than that Um, so that's another decision to be made is whether or not the the hoops should be painted and am I going to affect the value in doing that? Um, and then another one which doesn't happen very often because it's prohibitively expensive But I actually just finished off a big job doing this for someone this week is is the rechroming or the replating of metal parts Usually it's a fairly pointless thing to do because obtaining Better condition old stock parts For a cheaper price is usually possible on forums Yeah, um, then the cost of getting them rechromed. I'm sure again though getting stuff re rechromed or re nickel plated or whatever the plating happens to be Although it ends up looking absolutely amazing. It takes away the originality. That's not the original plating that was on there You know, it's a it's a similar thing to changing the wrap in a way You know, you can take off green sparkle and put green sparkle back on but it's not the original green sparkle anymore Even if it looks identical Most collectors don't like the idea of things being replated But again that decision eventually rests with the client and it's just about me educating them about That stuff and about the the decisions that are available to them or and just trying to steer them on a path to Getting the not only the best result in terms of how it looks but the best result in terms of maintaining the asset they have and um Not wrecking what they have There's something very special about something that's like it's original even if it's not 100 perfect it is still beautiful and um I personally like seeing that this is the nicks and scratches from You know 80 years ago on this drum set and um, and I think there's kind of right now as we've been sort of Talking about this whole time is there's definitely a resurgence of people Finding interest in these old drums. Um, are you seeing that as well? Like it's absolutely growing and growing more Yeah, it really is and that's that's an interesting thing. I think that um Like we were saying at the beginning obviously these things are getting older So it makes sense that we're coming into an era now where they're becoming more collectible But I don't think that's the only thing I think I think the other thing is that there's just a shift in the way um It might only be a small percentage of people We're talking just specifically about drummer. So it might only be a small percentage of drummers But that small percentage has grown just a little bit more the people that are steering away from buying the mass produced big brand stuff that's accessible and Available and easy um and moving instead towards maybe Just digging up something a little bit more interesting or a little bit more unique or something that takes a little bit more work and understanding I think the reason that's happening is Because of the internet. I think it's it's really as simple as that. Yeah, which is it's kind of an interesting. Um It's kind of interesting to have something so modern pushing along something so old But yeah, but um, I think that's really what it is. You know, I was having a conversation with A drummer friend of mine a couple of weeks ago We were out seeing a gig together and he went through the the conservatorium here in in sydney and and did the jazz course there Like I don't know 10 years ago or maybe a little bit more And he was just commenting on how the kind of the caliber of drummers coming through the con now is just like There are so many incredible young drummers coming up now and and and So many more than in his day was the statement. He was sort of making um and and he was attributing that to the internet as well because The information is so accessible to people now and drummers can just sit down and watch extensively um concerts and clinics and Interviews and they can watch instagram live streams and they can talk they can have skype lessons with You know anyone they want this stuff is so much more Like it's within reach of everyone now where it really wasn't in the old days You would have had to wait especially here in sydney, you know If you were a jazz drummer wanting to see some of you know, you sort of your great american heroes or whatever It would have been a long time waiting for them to come through town And it's it's just not like that anymore and that's that's had a big effect on the level of musicianship And I think the same things happened with people Understanding and collecting and taking an interest in vintage drums. They're talking about it online. They're seeing them online they're learning about them online so that community of people that are That are more inclined to buy a vintage instrument is getting a little bit bigger It'll always be much much smaller than the people that will buy the off the shelf brand new yamaha or tarma or pearl um But something that I think is interesting on that front is to see a company like ludwig Which obviously is so sort of heavily steeped in legacy and history and you know, they're their whole Marketing angle is we were the company that was there back then and did this thing back then, right? Yeah, and and and so they should because the the contributions they made and the the The the part of history that they were uh that they contributed to or that they formed in some way is Huge it is. Yeah, it's huge and it's significant and if you had that card to to play you would keep playing it You'd keep showing it for forever And but what I think is really cool is to see that of course we've you know We've had over the last 20 years ludwig sort of reissue doing the kind of the john bonham reissue or various sort of ringo reissue things or like Van Halen kind of things or whatever, you know, just sort of Just sort of remind us all of this was this this great Person that once endorsed our brand or or still does and this is the you know The way our drums looked back in the 70s and all that kind of stuff But the thing I think is cool now is that you see guys like Like carder mclean who I mean he's only just recently moved to ludwig, but Obviously he's he's one of their sort of fairly big high-profile endorsing artists Um Using their newest gear, but if you watch a lot of his instagram Clips or his youtube channel, you'll see he'll just as regularly pull out a very old ludwig snare or he'll be playing on his Ludwig club date like it's an actual 1960s club date kid And I think that's that's such brilliant. Um, I mean look i'm not suggesting that those aren't just the decisions of Carter himself to want to do that But that's such great marketing for ludwig as well because it's saying Like, you know, we're still making drums, but there's nothing wrong with their old drums either You know, you know the people that play our drums. They they play both It's not about just going out and buying the new thing all the time And I think it's so nice to see that from a big brand Um, but ludwig has ludwig has guys like like um, ulysalazar working there now Who are who are cluey young guys that that that just understand Um, what the current sort of marketing climate is like And and that's what it is people have an understanding and an interest in these old things and and more of an appreciation for it now and I think, you know, I'm always trying to You're talking before about something having a few sort of scratches and nicks and that being you know In a way kind of a beautiful thing that that can be sort of appreciated and treasured and shouldn't necessarily Um be something that that that turns someone away from wanting to own it um I'm sure I'm always trying to kind of foster in people this this understanding or this appreciation of old things and why they're Why they're important to to have and to to own and to look after for the future and I mean in a way I don't think I really know I don't I don't know why it's important It just feels like it should be and and maybe it's going to become apparent to us further down the track but for now it just feels like there's We shouldn't throw this stuff out and we shouldn't just go and buy a new thing all the time and I don't want it to sound like I think I probably sort of in some ways a bit of an an apathetic person in in terms of sort of consumerism and Environmental management and that that kind of stuff. I do care about that stuff But that's not sort of the angle i'm coming from here Maybe some people would be maybe it's you know trying to sort of Move away from a throwaway culture of buying new stuff all the time and that's great and that's admirable but for me it's about the preservation of the the history and the um the sort of The legacy of things and like there's this thing that I that I do in my I mean I work here by myself largely So I have a lot of time to just ruminate on things and think about stuff All day while I'm working and and some of that stuff is is a little bit crazy I guess but a thing that I find myself doing a lot when I'm working on an old instrument is I think about all the stuff that's happened In the world in the time that that instrument has existed Yeah, I know this is like it's a bit of a strange existential way of looking at it and The the reality is with drums That I mean when we're talking about the drum kit anyway that it's not a very old instrument and You've already had conversations with guests that have sort of gone into the history of the evolution of the Drum set with you and it really doesn't go back that far, you know, it's only we're only talking about the beginning of the 20th century um, so when you compare drums to like violins or cellos or um Yeah, or I mean other types of drums as well like timpani for example They go back hundreds of years which which isn't the case with the drum kit But still even going back to the 1950s or the 1960s that that is kind of a long time ago and a lot a lot of interesting stuff has um Happened in the world in that time um Let me can I tell you a story? Yes, please Please I guess that's what I guess that's what I'm here for um So I had this this this one particular drum that I like to use as this kind of example When I'm sort of getting people to to encourage this kind of thinking with people I had this drum. I guess it was two or three years ago that a guy brought in um And it was it was made in 1894 um And it was a french it was a this beautiful brass french marching snare drum But it was kind of like it was a shallow a shallow marching snare So it was like 13 and a quarter inch diameter some sort of weird, you know, this predates uh standardized head sizes So it was 13 and a quarter inches or there about Four inches deep or something just a fairly small sized marching snare everything including the hoops made out of beautiful beautifully formed brass with a nice Hip rest and a nice sort of ornate hook for the shoulder strap to To latch on to and he still had the original leather shoulder strap, which was definitely in no condition to Um to use because it was, you know, badly sort of perished and deteriorated But he had this beautiful old brass snare drum and this belonged to a guy a french guy here in sydney who had Providence showing that his great great grandfather had owned this drum In france. I can't remember what the story was about how he came to own it But they had some connection to the maker and in any case it was Known that this drum Was owned by family member of his and there was a maker's mark sure enough on the drum as well showing that it was from france From this era And I thought to myself like a lot while I was working on it Just about how old this drum was Um now the work on this drum was kind of I guess what we would call more conservation than restoration So so not so much sort of changing its appearance or getting it to look shiny And I certainly wasn't you know buffing this brass up to have a mirror finish or anything like that It was a bit more what you were referring to before about sort of Just keeping it just as it is and not letting it get worse and You know appreciating that yeah, it's got some scratches and dings that it's it's incurred over its You know more than a century of existence but this is this is an amazing thing and It's something that I sort of ponder in my head a lot and I don't want to sound like you know Sort of like it's a bit of a cliche to sort of talk about it in a way like Oh, you know imagine the stories this thing could tell or whatever. It's it's an inanimate object but It's it's it's just about for me Imagining this this timeline of what has gone on in the world in this period of time and you know, that's 1894 so that's like 125 years ago that this drum was made But I have this sort of thing that I figured out in my head of like all this stuff that's happened in the world that makes 125 years sound So much longer than we might think at first glance and it's one of these things where you just need to let it sink in a little bit But if you think about 1894, you know, it doesn't really stand out as a year In the same way as like 1945 or 1969 or some sort of key years where we're like, yeah That's a year in history that a big a big thing happened But if we jump forward a little bit to 1914 So the the drum is 20 years old already in 1914 and 1914 is the beginning of world war one, right? But world war one um, most people probably would know started when The Archduke of Austria Frans Ferdinand got assassinated And that was in Sarajevo in in Bosnia and I've been to the the bridge where this happened And it probably a lot of people listening who've traveled through the Balkans would have would have been to this bridge And it's it's an unremarkable kind of spot. It's just this pretty much in the center of town It's a beautiful old it's called the latin bridge I think it's a beautiful old bridge in the middle of Sarajevo And this is where essentially where world war one started this the archduke of Austria was assassinated and that started the war To go back from there in 1894 what's interesting about the connection there is that the guy that assassinated Frans Ferdinand he was born in 1894 Oh, man So the so the guy that basically the the guy that essentially started world war one He was a baby when this drum was being made. Wow like that's for me. That's a big thing to think about Yeah, I mean in a way in a way I guess you could say well It doesn't matter whether that guy was born or not because he was part of an organization that Frans Ferdinand was going to get assassinated either way That's possibly quite true But there are certainly a lot of other things that have happened in the history of this drum where it really was down to the Existence of this very particular person. It wasn't just a case of if they didn't come along someone else would have kind of thing So anyway, we can move on through history So if we get Six years into the life of the drum or seven years into the life of the drum were up to 1901 That's a significant year here in Australia. That's that's the federation of Australia So that's when all of the states which were individually governed or individually administered became a unified the Commonwealth of Australia A couple of years after that is 1903 when the Wright brothers are flying their first successful you know their amalgamation of canvas and broomsticks or whatever they knocked their plane up out of Getting it getting it off the ground for 10 or 15 seconds, but successfully Taking off and landing a motorized plane for the first time Like that that happened in 1903 and that's really in one sense. It doesn't seem like a long time ago But you know, it feels like obviously for you and me who've never lived in a world that they didn't have planes They they feel like something that's been around forever, but they weren't and when this drum was made they certainly weren't That's that's incredible. I think to think about this drum being around in a time when there was when people couldn't fly And then of course we moved through. Yeah, we're up to world war one So we moved through world war one that starts and finishes world war two starts and finishes when world war two finishes the drum's already more than 50 years old. So that's that's 14 or 15 years older than than I am at the end of world war two And I think the the wars are interesting in this particular instance To take note of because this was a marching drum and it was french so it's there's no way of knowing but I wondered You know, I wonder what this might have been doing during either or both of those wars was this used in some um, sort of military band or some cadet band or a school band was a part of some kind of rallies or Parades that had anything to do with either of these wars or did it just sit on a shelf summer in france while War was raging all over europe like it's it's interesting for me to think about that that this thing is was sitting there or being used possibly throughout this period that now we have so much sort of Just a montage of imagery that that plays in all of our heads even our generation that was never there We all can picture things from those wars because we're just exposed to it all the time in life. Yeah um And then that I mean so this is already up to 50 years or so and then we're sort of getting into the 1950s 1960s and I just want to make a little disclaimer as I get to this this section that you know I'm about to talk about the Beatles and I think the Beatles is in one way a very Um It's it's kind of a fairly obvious or fairly pedestrian So sort of referenced to like to be talking about music and then you know just use use a reference to the Beatles all the time it's like it's like that um What's that thing, you know that um godwin's law like way if you're having an argument on the internet It's only a matter of time before someone references the nazis or hitlock Yeah, it's like yeah, it's gonna happen. But no, they're they're huge like it changed the world It's like a nice a nice version of the godwin's law but they're they're a big thing and they're they're so connected to There's the in particular that they're real they really are a relevant reference point when it comes to drums because the Beatles and more specifically ringo had such a profound impact on the growth of um the ludwig drum company and Just I think the interest the general public had in Taking up playing the drums um so So we're talking about the Beatles now so So this is interesting. So just to use some Beatles sort of Some Beatles years or statistics to sort of highlight the age of this drum that the Beatles didn't even come into the existence as a band Until this drum was 66 years old. Oh my god. Yeah and And the the another way of looking at that the the drum existed for more years before the Beatles began Then it has existed since the Beatles ended So, you know, if we think about when the Beatles played that played the rooftop concert at apple records, you know 1969 I think that that is a long long time ago and it's a long time before you or I were born either But that's a shorter amount of time Then the drum had existed before the Beatles started And no no me no member no member of the Beatles was even born until this drum was 46 years old Uh, and the drum not only predates the birth of all the Beatles, but it predates the birth of all the Beatles parents And and one one last thing one last Beatles thing just to drive this point home John John Lennon John Lennon's father And John Lennon's mother They were all born and they all lived and they all died within a period of time that It it doesn't even it constitutes only Half the entire amount of time that this drum has existed So that that's just think about the think about the impact that a person like John Lennon had on Music art popular culture politics to some extent Kind of the the beliefs of an entire generation That the the for him to even come into into existence for his him to be a concept for His his parents to even come into existence the drum existed well before any of that And well after and still exists and it's still played well after and it still exists And and and think of all the great drummers that have come and come and gone and died in that period of time as well, you know all So many huge Names that we that we all know, you know the Keith moon and John Bonham all of these huge huge drummers have come and gone within the life of this drum massive sort of advances in technology and Progression in In societies around the world Television wasn't a thing computers weren't a thing recorded music Obviously is probably the the biggest thing especially considering what we're talking about here Like when this drum was made there was no recorded music like thinking of how that's changed And you know I think and this is the big one and I don't want this to sound too much I mean it already does sound like this, but I don't want it to be too much like some kind of You know some stoner on the bongs just sort of waxing about Waxing about like space space and time and existence But think about this as the last point on to just sort of to frame how old this drum was Every every person that's alive in the world today Was born after this drum was made. Oh, yeah, really how many people how many people are how many people are in the world like Seven and between seven and eight billion. I think right. Yeah Something like that So every every single one of those people was born after the drum was made. I mean it's obvious If we think about it, we all know there's no one older than 125 years old But but when you just frame it like that, I think it's really sort of it's almost a little bit scary to think about And the second part of that point every person that was alive when it was made Has since died So, yeah, so wow that's that's a that's incredible to me. So through all of that This drum has been a thing that that has sat some way that has been used by probably multiple people And there's no doubt that probably throughout its existence There would have been long periods of time and it might have happened a number of times as well Where it got shelved or it just got stored somewhere maybe for 20 years maybe for 50 years But there's really no way of knowing how much of its existence. It's spent just sitting doing nothing But wherever it was and whatever was happening with it Whether it was being used or stored or admired or whatever It was a thing that existed through all of this stuff happening And I think like we all you know, we all think about things like oh the pyramids were built 4 000 years ago That's such a long time ago. It's so incredible to think that humans did this stuff that long ago But it's easier. I think to think 125 years. That's not so long ago. That's not such an old thing but I think when you really think about the stuff that Humans have done in the last 100 125 years It's unbelievable like we've we've moved we've really moved forward as a species a lot And um god for better for better and worse, you know, a lot of good things a lot of bad things have happened Which obviously I've just highlighted there, but um This this thing has sat through all of that. I this is the sort of thinking I try to kind of Foster in people. I mean Maybe it's all a little bit too deep But I think I want people to have this appreciation of all things and and see that there is a reason to look after them And it's it's enough for the reason to just be This thing is old and it's been around for a long time and it's survived through a lot of stuff So therefore we should like look after it. I think that's enough of a reason and I think my my job is like my job is restoring and fixing drums, but That's I guess like you could say that someone's job is a drummer But another way of talking about it is Another way of putting it rather is to say oh their job is to play music and create art and entertain people It's it's quite a different way of saying it, isn't it like you can say i'm a drummer It makes it sound quite sort of mechanical like it's just you've got this tool and you do this task But there's a difference between saying i'm a drummer and saying I create music to entertain people and I guess There's maybe a difference as well between saying i'm a drum restorer or saying I'm a drum restorer and my job is to preserve old things and Encourage people to appreciate them and to look after them and and treasure them. Yeah, um, that is just unbelievable Yeah, I mean you you've got a I guess that's a non-tangible aspect of what I do No, I think if you could get paid for just thinking I think you'd be a You'd be a rich man right now and it just makes me think about like. Oh, that'd be great Yeah, it makes me think of how well crafted that drum is to be able to last that long and all of these drums that we're talking about That just I mean they'll be around for I mean unless They're destroyed and thrown out or burned that they will be around thanks to people like you which is just awesome and um I've got a lot to think about right now with when I look at a drum so Man, so I think now is a great time for you to tell people where they can find you and if they want to talk to you and kind of just really get into your world and um possibly throw you some work and stuff if they're around Australia and all that stuff Where do they find you? Yes, it's certainly Well, um, they can find me in all the usual places. So I'm I'm on you can find kentville drums on facebook Uh and on instagram, um, but people can email me as well if they want to If they want to ask me any questions or you know, shoot me some details of a project They had in mind and I mean, I obviously the majority of the work I do is for the the sydney community or the new south wales community which is the state that I live in but I receive work from all over australia and quite a quite a bit of international restoration work as well, so There's yeah, I welcome I welcome everybody and they can definitely find me in all those usual places online or on my website They can contact me through there as well or or check out photos of some of the the work I do Man on some of the products I make. Yeah, and you're always doing cool stuff. Um, and it's kentville ke and t V i l l e drums. Um, and you can find them at kentville drums dot com dot au Um, man, it's just like just to put it all into perspective like that Like I have a snare that was my great great great grandpa's from when he was a cadet in boarding school And someone converted it into a table As from what I understand in like like with drumsticks as like the Kind of legs and I think they converted it in like the fifties And when I think about that of like wow It like I think the drum is from like 1880 And then to think the fifties was so long ago that they converted it and it's been a it had a life as a table I'm like it's just wild and uh, it was already it was already a vintage instrument instrument in the fifties Exactly already existed a very long time then yeah No, you've got a very beautiful way of looking at this stuff and um And I just want to thank you for being on the show today. I mean we've got this is I this is a very special episode A because you're literally I'm talking to you from the future. So that's pretty wild But b just this this very kind of like surreal way. I'm talking to you from the future You're not talking to me from the future. I'm the one in the future. You're talking to me from the past, man That's right. I was confused. Yeah Um, so that that drum is a day older where you are. That's right. Think about that. Oh my god Think about the millions more people that have lived and died in that one day Man well steel. I hope to uh, I hope to someday meet you and our paths may cross and um It like you said before about the world getting smaller And just drummers being able to communicate. I think the fact that right now someone in Let's say brazil could learn about From an american guy interviewing an australian guy On a podcast and learning about the definition of a bearing edge It just it's just unbelievable. I think we live in a really cool time Yeah, I totally agree. You're right. It is getting smaller. It's a cool thing. Cool Yeah, thanks so much for having me and and by the way like great job on this This podcast like I've listened to a bunch of the episodes and it's um Yeah, I have to admit. I'm not I'm not a huge podcast listener It takes a lot for me to really sort of get drawn into podcasts But but this is one that I've found absolutely fascinating. Well, thank you. Um Yeah, so excellent workmen and I love all of the stuff you're doing as well. Awesome. Cool, steel man, I gotta I have to like think about all the things that have happened Since like drums that I have in their life now. You have to it's your duty Cool Very good. All right, steel. Well, thanks for being on the show brother and I will uh, I'll talk to you later My pleasure. Thanks a lot If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast