 Good evening, wherever it is that you are joining us. This is a session called Skills for Growth, creating a future-ready workforce. I think everybody understands that skills are a fundamental determinant of productivity, of growth potential of an economy. We all would like to have more skills. Everybody should have skills. Those skills should be flexible because the world is a changing world, and jobs are changing, and we want a future-ready workforce. And it's super cool, but we don't know how to do it. So the question here is really, what are the ideas that people are having to achieve that? I am Ricardo Hausmann. I'm a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School. I'm the founder and director of the Harvard Growth Lab, where we help countries figure out growth strategies. And it's one of the things that we hear when in all the countries we work in is that there are skills shortages that they want to deal with the skills shortages. But it's not obvious what to do about that once you've identified it. It's not like there's a well-known technology or well-known institutional arrangement through which these things are done. We know that that's the case, because when we look internationally, we find some countries, say like Switzerland or Germany, that involve a lot the companies themselves in training the workers themselves and maybe certify that training. So it's a realization that a lot of the things that a company wish the worker knew can only be taught in the context of work, in the company, et cetera. Others rely more on vocational training with some kind of relationship between the vocational institutions and business so that there's some way of teaching in the classroom what they want people to know at work. But a lot of the things we know cannot be taught in the classroom, and that's why companies typically demand five years of experience, 10 years of experience, 15 years of experience, because it's not like we can generate that in the classroom. So it's really a puzzle how to organize yourself to create these skills. And what we have here in the panel is a group of people who have thought hard about this question. And they've thought hard about this question from different angles, from the angle of government and from the angle of business. So I'm going to start first with Sunjoo Gogh, who's the chief skill officer of Skills Future Singapore. Now, we all know Singapore. We all know that Singapore went from being a low income country to being the highest income country in the world development statistics. And it happened within two generations. It's an amazing transformation story. You might have heard plans that Singapore has about the future. If you had read those plans 20 years ago, you would have had a good excuse to assume that these are pie in the sky, white elephants, and so on. But the thing is that Singapore delivers. So here we are now with the chief skill officer of Skills Future Singapore. And we want to know how it is that they plan their future needs for skills, how it is that they deliver on the generation of those skills. Actually, I'm trying to see whether I can summarize the 57 years of work in a few minutes. Essentially, when we look at a competitive economy, we know very clearly that we need a competitive workforce. And to do so, every few years, when we plan a hit with the private sector in a sectoral basis, we do ask them about what business direction they're going to. Is it going internationalization? Is it going for digitalization? So the business strategy must be supported by talent and skill strategy. So it is highly coordinated in efforts, private sector, public sectors. So we do have a Future Economy Council co-chaired by Deputy Prime Minister and private sectors. And they deliberate on this future economy and they cascaded down to industry transformation plan. So every industry has an industry transformation plan where part of it is the talent and skills. So once we unveil that talent and skill strategy, it will almost immediately translated into insights for university polytechnics and technical educations to put in their curriculums. And we also look into how the incumbents workforce need to be very quickly re-skilled. So one example today is we just formed a green skills council. And the green skills council is going to drive the Singapore Green Plan 2030 so that we can go into the zero emissions. And that required the private sector and the public sector to think through what R&D we need, what kind of business model we need to change, and then what kind of workforce re-skilling needed. So that translations of unknowing the needs of the business to translating into re-skilling has to be at speed and skill. And we do provide job skills insights that we analyze to enterprises, also to the citizens. We also provide cost-free subsidies to enterprises so that they can defray out-of-pocket expenses. On top of that, every Singaporean 25 years and above receive skill future credits, $500 when they reach 25 years old. And then again, we do a top-up later on. So we just did a top-up. So this allowed us to empower the citizens and the enterprises to take up the re-skilling as they needed. So that's just a quick summary. Can I ask you, do you have a success story to share with us of something that you did that worked better than you expected? Maybe I can give you an example of our banking and finance sector because the banking and finance sectors are very much, I would say, threatened by the FinTech industry. And a lot of the things that the banks are doing today will not be required tomorrow. Take for example, clearing of checks. And one of the banks in Singapore called the DBS Bank, they know that some part of their operations, the staff will be not required anymore. So they took an effort to plan ahead of time, three years to plan ahead of time to say that they need to reskill 1,600 bank tellers and also the check clearing officer. And in three years, they reskill them out of which 1,200 managed to be deployed into other job roles within the bank. 400 joined other banks. So I think it's quite a successful story by the employers took upon themselves to say that, hey, I need to keep my workforce because in a very tight labour market, once you let go, then it's very difficult to recruit. So they took upon themselves to reskill the workforce ahead of time and they helped them transit as the business transit. Very, very interesting. Let me go now to Commissioner Nicholas Schmidt. He's the commissioner for jobs and social rights of the European Commission. In some countries struggle with dealing with one country, you have to struggle dealing with 27 countries and hopefully going on to 30 plus, right? Once you accept Ukraine, Albania and Macedonia. But it's very clear what the goals are. We don't know what are the tools and the instruments to achieve those goals. So what's the strategy of the European Union to be able to assure that its citizens have good jobs? Well, first, I would recommend all the member states go to Singapore and be a bit inspired, I think, because what we are proposing, by the way, is not so far away from what you are concretely doing. But you know, the commission, we can just give good advices, we can give money, we can call on member states to do things, but then at the end, it's member states that decide. So that's a bit the difference between a state and the commission who has to coordinate and help member states to find the right path. But I think there is an awareness in Europe that first, we need to relaunch our growth model because of technology, because of competition worldwide, because of new constraints, and because of demographics also. Europe has also a very hard demographic evolution, which is, well, obliging us to invest more in productivity because that's the only way how we can cope with this issue. So what we are doing is now to say, okay, we have to skill, first we have to better educate. I think at the end, it starts with education. So I think we're thinking our education systems. We're all speaking about what are the first new skills needed, and we find first skill, creative thinking, creativity. And you said this morning, I think, you looked after the book, How to Teach Creative Thinking. Do our school systems teach kids creative thinking? I'm not so sure. So probably we have to start here, also by adapting our education systems in this direction. What are the needs? What are the major skills? Because with internet, you can have in half a second every information you need. Creative thinking is a bit more difficult. You need a bit more time, and you need also the way how to do it. So now we launched this year of skills, European year of skills, which has first as an objective to create a mindset for skills at all levels, not just states or governments. It's important governments have an important role to play. We heard that just now, but at the end it's also about companies, and it is also about the individual. And we tried, now you have introduced the special credits. We call it the personal credit or educational or training credit. Everybody should have this credit to invest for his own purpose, for his own career. We have a certain number of member states introducing that, not all of them. Some are more skeptical, but I think the EU case is a good argument for everybody to do so. And I think the transformation we are going through, especially also with green scales, with climate, shows also that there are a lot of opportunities. And what is important is now to give people the trust because people are very often skeptical. When you tell somebody you have to be reskilled, not everybody says, well, that's fantastic. I waited just for that. No, it is the question you have to convince and you have to show that being reskilled, being upskilled is a better opportunity. It's not just because you want to sack this person afterwards. Absolutely not because otherwise you would not invest in this person. And this is something we want to develop now in order to sustain, change the growth model in Europe. And this can only be done through people at the end. Better skilled people, better educated people, and also better motivated people precisely to be skilled and open to new skills and new knowledge. And let me ask a rejoinder. So we know the goals. You have the willingness to spend money. Can you tell us something about the mechanisms to transform money into skills that is the production function of those skills? What is the best way to deploy those resources? Is it something that you're going to subcontract with us at university so that we teach something in the classroom? Is it something that has to involve more internally the processes of corporations so that they are able to use the fact that they have experienced people doing things to transfer that knowledge? How are you imagining that? First, to give you an idea, we think more or less for the coming years to spend 65 billion euros on the broad rescaling or upscaling of Europe's working population or population. This is quite an important amount of money. Now, this has to be spent by the member states. And the member states have to allocate to those who are performing their skills revolution. So it's about schools, it's about apprenticeships, developing new ways also, how people can learn. So investing in vocational training. Here we are in a country when we have the good example of Singapore. Switzerland is a country without a lot of natural resources and it is a highly performing industrial country, still industrial country with high tech developments. Why? Well, because they invest it in a very convenient way how to skill people. That's about apprenticeships and vocational training. So this is taken by member states to invest, to modernize, to strengthen their vocational. Money has to go to universities, but also to companies who reskill their own. We have a transition, we are closing coal mines. What do we do with coal mine workers? Well, what you did with the banks, we have to do it with the fossil using or emitting high carbon emitting industry. So these are money which can be used to reskill the workforce for new jobs and which are in the green or in digital or in other sectors. Thank you, thank you so much. So Diana Jones is the executive vice president for people, communications and transformation at Baker Hughes Energy Services. Now I don't know if you know, but Baker Hughes is a company that does all really the hard part of the oil industry. They have to drill oil wherever oil happens to be. They have to manage these operations, these things explode very easily. It's so it's capital intensive, it's dangerous. And you have to generate the labor force that is able to perform that. And so how have you been assuring the company that you can detect and attract and retain and form the skills that such a complex operation needs? So thank you, I appreciate getting the opportunity to be here this afternoon. So one of the things that I think I'll clarify as an energy technology company, we do have those very remote locations where we're still in the process of working with hydrocarbons. And we have everything from that all the way to some of the ways that we're thinking about decarbonization of the energy systems, geothermal, hydrogen, CCUS. And so making sure that people who are coming into any part of that ecosystem can understand the ability to have a full career because of the skills being transferable. So when we put together teams to go out to those remote, very, very difficult locations, we've been doing a lot of work around multi-skilling so that we can put less and less people on site using digital tools to allow for remote. The pandemic allowed us, for example, we were pre-pandemic about 50% of our customers were doing remote drilling and post the pandemic, it's about 97%. So the adoption of technology and the ability to actually, you know, use individuals who are on site, combined with people who are more remote and working in different ways is definitely something that we're focused on. But I think it comes down to identifying the activities that are going on in each of those areas, whether it's applied technology or manufacturing or engineering, bringing people into an existing ecosystem. So today, you know, 81% of the world's energy is still coming out of fossil fuels and giving them the ability to see how they can actually work on projects and do engineering and focus on how we actually decarbonize that ecosystem and actually move towards, you know, that cleaner and greener future that we're all looking for. And that transition and allowing for us to say, you know, how do I see the number of people who have chemistry or biological sciences in their background? Maybe even before they came into the industry, they did something in school. And then I think partnering with the educational institutions for that continuous skilling, I'll call it, not necessarily re-skilling or multi-skilling, but continuous skilling and continuous learning being just such a fundamental part of how we see the future going forward. But let me send you a rejoiner. So you hire somebody what percentage of jobs at your organization can be performed by somebody you just hired? Vis-a-vis somebody with two years of experience, five years of experience, 10 years of experience, and how and to what extent do you plan their experience so that in the process they accumulate the skills that you need for a person that needs to have 10 years of experience? Yeah, so very few. So we are partnering more, I would say, with community colleges, with universities to make sure that the skills are as applicable as possible. But when you enter into a company like Baker Hughes, if you're coming straight from college or from secondary education, you probably are spending somewhere between a year to 36 months to actually skill up to be fully qualified to do those jobs. And we look at that competency baseline for what types of jobs you can do back to the safety sensitive nature of a lot of the work that we do. Our customers require a lot of certification and clarification that the people who are on site are qualified to do those jobs so that we don't end up with health and safety issues. So in some sense, you have an internal training agency yourself? Yes, we do, absolutely. We have an internal training agency, the apprenticeship model. We use that in a number of different locations. So we use a multitude of different things to actually continue to skill those talents that are coming out of campus. Excellent. Mohammed Aurangadzeb is the president and CEO of Habib Bank, which is the largest bank in Pakistan. He started his financial career in Wall Street, moved on to Singapore actually before going back to Pakistan some five years ago. And you run an organization with 22,000 people. You must have internally a lot of headaches in making sure that your organization has that those 22,000 people have the skills needed for the organization to perform. And you've been thinking about how can Pakistan more broadly also make sure that other organizations have the skills that they need. Why don't you share us your views? Yeah, thank you, Ricardo. So, yeah, having lived in Singapore, 90% of strategy is execution and no one does it better than Singapore. But let's move to emerging market and underdeveloped country. And we have a population of 230 million people, unfortunately, still growing at the rate that we are growing. The youth bulge ages between 19 to 25, I mean, it's close to 40%, unemployment rate of 14%. If you talk about youth bulge, it's actually double of that. So, all of this is a crying rally for a national upskilling, reskilling, new-skilling emergency. You look at the flip side of it. We've just heard Singapore. We just heard the commissioner, billions of dollars, a lot of money being thrown at it. The government does not have the fiscal space. 4% of the federal spending is on education, health, and social protection in general. So, broadly speaking, private sector has no choice but to step up in terms of taking this whole discussion forward. And that's where I think more recently, the accelerator program in conjunction with the World Economic Forum came in very handy where we did have a co-chairs of the public sector, which is sort of the government ministers, but it's really the co-chairs of the private sector which took ownership and ownership end to end in terms of designing, defining the roles that we need for the industry as we go forward. And then, quite frankly, also funding it because we don't have the luxury of asking the government for subsidies. So, it's early days, we have some proof of concept in terms of the roles that we have identified, the sectors which are aligned with the priorities of the country which are there. And we are just moving in that direction in terms of now scaling it up. Very good. Can you share with us some experience of these pilots that you've been running? Is there some clear signs that this is going to work out? Yeah, I mean, I think the digital transformation, right? I mean, it's a known thing now that everyone talks about during the COVID period, right? The decades where nothing happens and then their weeks in which decades happen and that's what happened with the digital transformation. That sort of accelerated the journey in terms of, especially the youth taking it in their own control. We now have roughly 4.5 million freelancers in the country. So that puts us sort of fourth in the world from that perspective. Now, the flip side of that is obviously cyber. And that's where, as HBL, we piloted the program with cybersecurity, about 16 banks participated in that. So it's not about HBL, it's just about seeing how can we supply those resources to the industry, roughly 70% graduated. And when they graduated, we saw an increase of roughly 25% in the salaries and wages post that pilot. But the real now challenge, Ricardo, is how do we scale it up? And that's where we are. Very interesting. So in 2016, you know, Britain voted for Brexit, the US voted for Trump. The idea was no jobs, bad jobs. We need more jobs. And the whole world started to respond to that sort of like signal from the voters that it was a job, so fast forward to at least, I don't know, February 23rd of last year, the day before the Ukrainian war started. And the conversation at least in the developed world was there are no workers, there are plenty of jobs, there are twice as many vacancies as there are people looking for work in the US. So now it's not a question of how can we generate jobs for people who are desperate to work. It's how can companies secure themselves, the staff that they need, how can they retain them, how can they assure that there will be enough people to hire for them to run. Let me reflect, Mrs. Gogh, from the point of view of Singapore, in which of these two worlds are you currently and how does that inform your skill strategy? Yeah, I think we certainly are in the extremely tight labour market situations. Our employment is full employment. And in fact our older workforce, they are 55 and above, have one of the highest employment rate. So we almost have no space left to squeeze any more workforce. So I think moving forward is really about, as you mentioned, and the commission mentions about, then is the economic growth continue to be, to require labour injected growth or we need another model? So I think we have to balance between which part of the work required workforce, which part of the work we really think that we can automate so that we can make the best use of the people and think through whether there are certain works that we can do without. So I think we are thinking through very consciously about, of course one part is having the foreign talent coming into Singapore, but which part of the foreign talent we really needed to help boost our skills stock. So these are something that we have to calibrate quite carefully. So it's about a balancing act of keeping good job for Singapore, Singaporeans, and then augmented with foreign talent at the same time as to push for automations and digitalisations. I think that's kind of summarised currently where we are. The Commissioner Schmidt, on the same topic, do you think that the motivation within the European Union is associated with workers fearing not having jobs, workers fearing disruption over the course of their lifetime, or is it firms fearing that they may not have access to workers? Well, I think at this very moment, it's probably more now the fear of companies not finding the right skilled people. But at the same time, there are also still in a certain number of member states employment issues. And at the same time, shortages. This is coming together. So I do not want to mention countries, but we have in some member states still very high youth unemployment. And at the same time, when you talk to business people, well, they complain about shortages. So there's a huge mismatch. And that's why it is so important now to invest in the right skills policies to bring these people excluded from the labour market into the labour market. Same thing applies to women. We still have in some countries very low participation of women in labour market. So there are still reserves. And there is probably a fear also of workers that if these technological developments and disruptions go on, it might also affect them. And it affects them because we have some sectors going through a total change like automotive, going from the combustion engine to electric engine, which means that you need more or less one-third less workforce to produce an electric car. So this is something which is there. And that's why we have to give people this perspective. There are jobs, they might be different, but we give you the possibility to be reskilled, to be upskilled and to change your job. This is not a catastrophe. This can be even an opportunity. So this is how we try to manage this transition because we are in a period of major transitions. Thank you very much. Diana, you have been in the industry for a long time. You were at Marathon Oil, you were at Schlumberger, you've been all over the place. In that period of your experience, technology has changed enormously in the industry. How would you characterize the present vis-à-vis, say, the recent past? Now there's tightness in the labor market. How is your job different from your job in previous years? So a lot has changed in that period of time. I've been in the industry a lot longer than I'd like to admit at times. To me, I think you can't get away from digital transformation in the way that actually I would say intelligent machines have completely changed the work and so the fear associated with, does that displace my job or does it change my job? That's certainly something that we deal a lot with and I think job security has become one of the top things that workers are looking for in this moment is how do I secure good employment over a long period of time and ideally with the same employer if I can because once I know and understand how to work in an ecosystem, I want to continue to work with those people and to be able to deliver value. But the other thing that I think has really changed is the sentiment around the industry and the need for us to get to net zero and so Baker Hughes was one of the first energy companies that took a net zero target. We have a roadmap and a plan and we show our employees on an annual basis how we're making progress. We involve and engage them in that sustainability path and to me that purpose led piece is a big part of what we'll attract or retain workers in the environment. But for me then the third thing that I would say that's been the hardest is really some of the vocational roles, whether that's something as simple as a truck driver. We see very few people who want to go into that and will that change over time with autonomous vehicles? Is that something that would completely change the need for those types of jobs out into the future but that balance between highly skilled and highly technical talent and then very vocational more trades oriented talent and making sure we get the balance there and certainly a balance from a diversity standpoint. So how do you attract women really into those STEM roles? How do you make sure that they also consider some of those manufacturing or vocational roles that allow them to have very highly paid and highly skilled jobs out over a long period of time? And then for me the last thing is really the mobility of talent. So it's always been a global industry. We operate in 120 countries around the globe. Getting to that skill level requires us to move talent around to where they can work on mature projects or with the right people to mentor and coach and guide them. And so working with governments and making sure that we can provide that mobility for the purposes of training and development is absolutely essential to being able to continue to move the workforce forward. That was the same back then and it's the same today maybe with more intensity because of the need to develop a workforce really around the globe for all of the projects that will come as we reposition the energy infrastructure. Let me go back to you again for, I've been doing a lot of work on migration as a solution to skill shortages and to talent. There's a competition for global talent and the bulk of the developing countries in the world have very, very restrictive immigration policies that are biased against high-skill immigration. How, tell us a little bit about your experience in working in developing countries and trying to move talent in. Is it, can you find ways around or is it a major headache? You can but it can be I think a bit challenging. I think you have to work at the initiation of the project or whatever you're doing. I think when we do that and we're working very closely with the governments, with the partnerships that we have then it's seamless. They understand the need to bring in highly skilled workers for a period of time so that we can actually grow and develop local talent and that we then also partner to make sure that local talent is coming out into some of the more developed countries so that they're having the opportunity to learn quicker in places and then come back with those skills. But it's not always easy and I think you have to outline the whole plan and really work together. Like I say, I don't think it's just the expatriation of highly skilled talent. I do think there's a commitment from companies who are working and operating globally to say how can I migrate talent from developing countries so that we can accelerate their growth and development so they can come back and lead those projects or lead those operations in country. Mohamed Arangzeb, you have partnered with the World Economic Forum in creating a skills accelerator in Pakistan. What is the nature of that partnership and how do you see its future? Yeah, so before I come to that, if you don't mind, I'll just mention just a couple of things around Wodhiana and Commissioner just mentioned around the ecosystem. So while the scaling and re-skilling is very important, the ecosystem, even when in terms of attracting talent and retaining talent, and my now working weather was for JPMorgan or HBL, when it comes to Gen Z and millennials, it doesn't matter. This is a global population. When we talk about technology and technological transformation, those days are gone when you say, you know, you do this, you do this, you do this, and then you become a managing director and that's Nirvana. That's gone. That's gone, right? So they want to have exciting things in life and they want to have to work or would like to work for a purposeful organization, right? And that's the linkage back into the World Economic Forum, right? And into the accelerators that we are working with. So I think the, as I said, what we have done with WF so far is, it is a public-private partnership, but where from my perspective, it's really the private sector which has taken and has to take destiny on our own hands back in the country. And as I said, the unique thing about what we are doing is end-to-end ownership from starting from design to operational effectiveness and going forward scaling it up. And that's where we are looking forward to working with World Economic Forum through this accelerator to scale it up. Very good. So let me now go to the floor for some questions that you might have. In, there's a prize for whoever is most daring to start. Yes, over there. One second, let's wait for the microphone. Thank you. My name is Mike Mansfield. I work for Pro-AIDS, the charity focused on age inclusion in the workplace. And we know that if an older worker loses their job, they often find it more difficult to find a new job. And I was wondering if the panel, or Professor Aspen, you had any best practices or ideas in terms of what companies or organizations could do to make sure that older workers, A, retain the skills they have so they don't lose the job in the first place, but maybe make sure that they're more employable going forward. Okay, I'm going to hold that question for to get a couple of more questions. But let's remember ourselves the question of older workers who lose their job or who rotate out. Yes, second question here. Hi, my name is Pro-Jal Khattak. I run a giant AI startup, headquartered in Singapore, actually, but we're a global software company. My question was actually more from Muhammad Arangzabe around as you see more jobs in places like Pakistan being export jobs in the tech sector, you said I think four million freelancers, a lot of them work for companies globally. We've hired developers at Pakistan too. How do you think that impacts the banking sector and financial services and what we need to do for workers that might be employed by employers overseas and employers at home? And I think from a Singapore context too, that's one thing we've seen Singapore companies do is instead of bringing talent in, we've been able to create a global HQ in Singapore and then hire talent in more regional locations around. So. Very good. Is there a last question before, so I'm going to turn to the panel. Let's start with Mrs. Gogh. I think there are questions on the mature worker. All the worker or mature worker is a very important one because the whole world, if you notice that the whole workforce is aging. It depends on who is in the super-aged society. Everybody will catch up sooner or later. So it is very important to start thinking about the workplaces. How can they keep the experience workforce and how do they allocate and assign jobs or tasks to them? It may not be a full-time job because the mature workforce may not want to be a full-time if they are financially stable. So I think the current old and the future old has to be considered carefully through the longer-term policy concern. In Singapore, when we look at workforce planning, we do focus on which industry has the highest percentage of older workforce and to what extent can we support the company to redesign jobs at the workplace so that we can keep as many of them as possible because the aged, if they are socially engaged, they tend to be more healthy. So I think this is a very important question. I think tomorrow there is a session that talks about the longevity economy and something that we can pick it up. And I like your question as well because today, to be honest, talents are boundaryless. We can't control who recruits who and use who at which country. So in Singapore, we are very mindful that a lot of the startup, maybe like yourself, set up a company, HQ in Singapore, because they have advantage of the brand and the kind of outreach. But the back-end, the hinterland workforce is not in Singapore because we just don't have enough warm body. So they go to Vietnam, India, Pakistan, everywhere. So to a large extent, companies are already doing that, distributed talent across the world and they don't even need to get permission to get a work pass to come into work. But to us is a very interesting phenomenon because then the global skills network is something that we need to focus on to see how we can help each other scale up accordingly. Thanks. Commissioner. On the aging issue, I think this is very important. And as you said, the whole workforce is aging. So we have to adapt to this situation. And I think that this means also that we have to to look differently at the career path. First element is you have to keep people in good shape. This is the health issue that work should not finally destroy your health. So working conditions become more and more important because we are living in a period where work becomes rarer. We are in a shortage. So we have to invest more in a good shape of work. The second one is investing in people during their whole working life. And this practice to say, well, this person is 50. Why should we still invest in this person? This person will retire. This is wrong. So we have really to invest in people up to and also then the transition from work into pension I think should be organized differently, much smoother in a more, in a smoother way. So I think this is also a new view we have to keep on working age. Vienna. Yeah, I think the mature workers, to me, there's a couple of things that we try to do make sure that everyone has access to any of the skills programs that we have. So a lot of our programs and the learning is available online now and anyone can go in and they can sort of look at their own profile and see the skills that they wanna keep doing so that we allow it to be more led by the individual versus by the business. But I would completely agree with the transition into retirement and managing that differently. I've long been curious about the flexibility that you transition into retirement and that flexibility actually providing a framework by which we could do a better job of flexibility at all ages for families and that type of thing. So I think there's something there around the how we work and how we create flexibility and how that allows us to balance the mature workforce as well as the needs of families and parents through their work as well. Thank you. Mohamed. Just quick one. I would just answer the first question, not only in the context of aging workers but women. And while it's a done deal in the first world, in Pakistan and HBL, we have called a program called WAPSI, which means for women who leave and our women leaders and women staff who leave for raising family to give them the optionality to come back when they are ready to do that. And I think it is the right way forward and we have seen that already in the context of diversity numbers going up to 22% in our workforce today. Coming back to your question, I don't see it as a zero sum game. People who find the right opportunities in the network, they should absolutely go. At the same time, we see especially Middle Eastern banks coming in, offshoring their roles into Pakistan and creating the job opportunities in the country as well. Matsrik, which comes to mind from that context. Thank you. Thank you very much. We're out of time. This has been a panel where I have learned a lot. Seen how people are, we know what the goals are. We want a skilled labor force that has meaningful work that is flexible and so on. It's just hard to get there and there are very interesting initiatives on the corporate level, at the national level, at the European level on how to make that happen. So thank you all very much and thank you.