 All right. Also, let me know if everyone can see my screen. Awesome. So welcome everyone to the hyperledger healthcare special interest group. My name is Mike McCoy. I'm our chair and host for the day. First off before we get into our introductions and our topics of conversation today, I want to be able to note we have a kind of no jerk policy and I know describing major business secrets here within the hyperledger healthcare special interest group. Pretty much the rules are this is an open environment. Respect everyone's thoughts, questions or ideas. Some people just have learned about blockchain technology within the past year. Others have been in this for five, seven, 10 years at the same time. We want to be able to give respect and space for everyone to ask their questions and to be able to answer these topics kindly and with enough patients as possible. And then also, if there's something proprietary and something that is an industry secret to you and your business, please do not disclose this here is an open source working group. Do not share industry secrets that you believe your company, your employer or yourself would not want to have discussed to everyone else. So that's just a caveat there. I'd love to give the time for anyone who is new to our group who is not a consistent member to give an introduction on themselves. If they are open to doing so. I know Pete Harris. I've, I've interacted with him and other blockchain events but I don't know if you've ever joined us in the healthcare sig so so welcome Pete if you want to give a quick introduction. Hi everyone. Hi, hi Mike. Thanks for the shout out there tuning in from Austin, Texas. This is where I live, currently, currently being the operative word. But yeah, I've been very involved in the blockchain space here in Austin. Last week, I think last week actually spun out from the Austin blockchain collective a new organization called Decentra tech collective about all the aspects of decentralization technology, of which applications in decentralized health is going to be a big, a big focus, I think. Very interesting news from Microsoft yesterday with regard to that. So yeah, lovely to be part of this and going to be you'll be seeing me a lot more of me in the future I'm sure. Thanks a lot. You love to see it. Love to see it. I believe we have a lot of names I'm recognizing on the list here but Adrian groper groper sorry. Please introduce yourself to the group. Sure, I, I'm a long time participant in self sovereign technology for health records. I've been in the self sovereign identity bandwagon very early five years ago in the standards groups, and I sort of lead or a an implementation. Not not a business, at least not these days, it never has been, but a reference implementation of a self sovereign health record called HIV of one. So I'm sure we'll all live to learn more details about that for another discussion. Is there anyone else that is new to the group that has not introduced themselves before for these kind of more informal general meeting agendas. Please feel free to do so. Hi, I can make an introduction as well. I don't remember if I did so before but I've been participating in a few meetings now. So, so my name is Anton. I'm currently living in Sweden. I'm a researcher at the Norwegian University where I do research on blockchain applications within the healthcare and especially doing project within health professional credentials system and also now addressing the current vaccination certificates with with sort of a side project so yeah and generally quite interesting in all, all things blockchain and health technology. Thanks. And thank you very much for giving introduction and I'd love to give Marta who works on the hyper ledger team if she's free to give an introduction yourself and what you do within the hyper ledger team. I'm like, Marta gear because I'm director of ecosystem for hyper ledger. Great to see Adrian again. We've crossed paths many times before. And yeah, I'm the point of contact for hyper ledger healthcare special interest group, been with the company for over almost five years now and I'm responsible for kind of building the collaboration between all the community participants being sags or enterprise members or the open source developer community. And Marta helps us out and get the word out on some of our events and other things as well so she's, she's a great resource and great person to connect with. All right. So, is there any community announcements. I'm sure Jim has some announcements on on some of the projects he's been doing, but anything you'd like to be able to announce out here to the hyper ledger healthcare sag from anyone please that floor is yours for these five to 10 minutes. And this could be any announcements of recent product launches, recent open source initiatives, recent events conferences hackathon anything that you would like to discuss please anyone can feel free. And the, there's no other the Microsoft announcement for support of verifiable credentials I think it was mentioned just a little bit earlier is very interesting. And they have gone full bore, promoting verifiable credentials for multiple, you know, use cases, which I find, I think it's worthwhile to note that we have a major player in, you know, in the enterprise world, supporting this. I think let me, I can post the link here in just a second Mike. Good yeah this is a, I think it's been known for some time. A lot of us know people like York and Dan Buckner who work in currently decentralized identity within Microsoft I think that was huge. They've been exploring space for quite some time. Very biased towards the ion method. Yes, but that's that's their play and that's very much something worthwhile. Any, any other announcements from anyone else. I'm not an announcement but an interesting thing. So, some of you may know I live in England. And today in the morning, waking up to BBC radio for I heard an interview with a person from IETA talking about their covered credentials and vaccine pass that is built. They didn't say how it's exactly built but they were talking about decentralized system and how it's very secure and they'll be introducing it and as some of you may know this is a system built by Evernim and it's built based on hyperledger in the. So, it's quite cool to just hear radio talking about the thing that you know, you know, you're kind of half working on. Oh, it's really cool. I mean, Jim could probably talk to the eye out of stuff to a little bit more but I was just on a conversation the other day with a group who's created a COVID-19 vaccination connection or VC DID and they're based in Maryland and and you know they're they're connected with all these things as well and it's a it's a small world but I think we're all on the same page of we want to interoperate all our different DIDs and VC methods and I want to make sure that we can not have to carry around a paper to be able to understand that we took a COVID vaccine or not. Anyone else. Any other things that piqued your interest. Unfortunately, we weren't able to have our patient or payer or healthcare and our ability subgroup leads to be able to join today. Steve recently Steve Elliott had a meeting on Monday to kind of talk about the progress and what their group was made. I would suggest joining their sessions every other Monday. If you want to join the subgroup I'll add a link in here in a second. Once I'm done sharing. But Ravish and Denise have had somewhat Denise is just looking for a sponsor like a corporate sponsor to be able to take on his EHR interoperability method, and then Ravish is still in the development stages of his project. So, those are the updates I'm aware of. I also want to say for ad hoc team updates or not just ad hoc team updates. Just news in general. I'm a part of this blockchain healthcare telegram group that was hosted by my friend Robert Miller and some others. And as well and some other people that are kind of influential in our blockchain healthcare space are very much trying to. There's so many great conversations somebody back and forth here so if anyone wants to join this telegram group, you guys have my email, please send me a ping or a message so I can add you to this group. We're bored in conversation and I get a lot of news updates and things that I'm not truly aware of from this group as well. So it's a good interaction there. Ray Dogham's podcast recently he interviewed, I believe, someone from meta ledger recently on their new charge back solution which was kind of interesting. We also have more information for Linux Foundation public health forum. Marta do you have any details. So, recently Brian Bellendorf who is the executive director of the hyper ledger overall project has now taken on lead to become the executive director of the Linux Foundation public health forum as well. Marta in particular do you have any details or things you can add beyond beyond that about what they're doing or about Brian taking on the role. Basically they are just, yeah, they are just starting off and trying to understand where do they fit in what they can do together they are trying to build out another covered initiative. And otherwise, yeah, just educating the public and looking really for corporate members because one of the things that all those networks need is obviously corporate members so they are slowly, slowly but surely working on that it's it's early days they are organizing regular webinars. Absolutely and I was told from Daniela who kind of manages their partnerships across the world that they're looking for more open source tabs and people to contribute into the different forums, and they even have some bounties and reward systems that could be able to help out startups and early stage development companies but. But yeah, if you want to join different part projects like cove green or cove shield. This could be a very interesting way for you to get more deeper into the, and to the identity and into the coven 19 credential space so they are calling or contributors and you can view all the projects has anyone had any exposure to some of the different projects that they have done so far. They've announced so far. Cool, I guess that means we just got to get more exposure into it so check it out. Feel free. The link is there in the chat. Awesome. Next up. So I want to get into some interesting topics that are at least piqued my interest this week when it came to blockchain health care and kind of the intersection of all that. So Singapore recently has developed a new standard for cross border verification of coven 19 tests. And I send this out to the group yesterday as you guys were joining. They have been, in my opinion, in the forefront and the lead of being able to create digital health verification methods. Since they had, I think it was called trace together or or something like that that came out in the early spring, and citizens of Singapore have actually been entering in at high rates to be able to connect into these but now they have a mobile application called sing pass, I believe that is going to be able to you scan a QR code, you then connected into your medical record that is actually hosted by the Ministry of Health, which is kind of like their, you know, their their governing body of all health records, and then you can be able to have approval and verification and tied to a vaccination credential that you have or have not been vaccinated or have been diagnosed with COVID so they use though particular they use not just one approval method, but they use not only blockchain approval methods but some other ones as well through this function called health certs, and then our update that I sent yesterday. Sorry in the links. I thought it was interesting they have all these approved health cert participants providers, three of them said that they apply a blockchain technology into what they build, such as in 3D certs or and some others, but but yeah anyone have any other thoughts or comments on on these findings. I'm sure everyone has to have an opinion on some of this. Yeah, we talked to a group out of, it's called affinity, I believe, Mike, and we got to know about them from the CCI meetings, you know, the biweekly presentations, and affinity was talking about exactly this. And since as you know, we, you know, we have been at my company, we have been developing some of the products, we talked to them about how to interoperate with their environment, and we specifically mentioned the fact that, you know, we are working with them and you know we are W3C standards and so on and they were very open to the fact that all of these need to interoperate just like what you mentioned, they wanted the ability for their verifiers to be able to verify, accept multiple document types, right, because we are not all going to stick to a single standard. So and then then there is also the use case of, you know, some people want to still bring in a paper document so they wanted a QR code based verification possible along with, of course, an electronic verification, including support of DITCOM. So they had some interesting suggestions as to how it should work. In other words, everybody should, the minimum requirement is everybody should be able to present QR code as opposed to, you know, some other methods of protocol initiation because they said that will make it easy for, say, their, you know, airport authorities to just follow, you know, they are expecting a QR code, the software will do the rest of it by identifying what type of pass this is and so on and so forth. So what I thought was interesting though is the first cross-border news that I've seen out at least, right, and for the most part people are trying to win over their national governments and we haven't gotten to the cross-country interoperability method yet. I know good health pass and Jim you guys are stating that as well but this was something that is, you know, functional across the country and then looking to connect with other entities as well. But I know you guys are connected with Providence and all that. Do you guys have in your roadmap plans to kind of do intercontinental good health pass approval processes or use cases? Jim, are you on with us? I am. I'm sorry, Mike. I didn't hear the call out. I was juggling another Zoom that I didn't realize I had same time. Oh, no worries. No worries. I just asked if you guys had on the roadmap to do intercontinental, you know, VC type of use cases. Great question. And the answer is no. We're sticking to our knitting. So we're specifically focused on providing a, you know, whatever is a universally acceptable, verifiable credential for a vaccine from points of vaccination, whether it's at the health system or a lab. But then as part of good health pass, we want to ensure that our credential as well as everyone else's credentials function at a universal level in conjunction with IATA travel pass and then in the other regional requirements. Very good to know. Very good to know. That's all I had on there. Any other comments on the Singapore initiative? I actually did kind of have a question because I was just on the phone with affinity a couple days ago, or a couple evenings ago. And when I mentioned about the self sovereign principles, they were saying that they're presenting as a verifiable credential, but they're still also demanding the contents of what the certificate says in terms of the actual information, which I thought was a little contradictory. It's contradictory to our approach on a zero knowledge proof. So I'd appreciate any feedback on that. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding. You are right Jim, in our conversations to right now they are at the more because of the multiple methods in which you can make a presentation, right, because as you correctly point out with the technology we have, we have the ability to do attribute based barriers and therefore have an extremely nuanced presentation. They are also I think trying to solve this problem across the board by just accepting say for example a paper QR code type of thing and therefore at this stage I think they are sticking to just present me the whole credential kind of situation, which you are right. It's not the ideal privacy preserving way of doing it, but I guess if you want to play the game, that's where you start. Well said sir, and thank you for the clarification yeah and and I know it's been discussed discussed amongst the circles the WHO is going to put out a certificate format, but to whether or not any particular one of the 200 countries makes that centralized decentralized unfortunately will fall down to reach local equities is very good to know. Awesome. I will get back to the next topics. Any other questions on this, in particular, I if anybody is and I don't want to like hijack the call if that was the plan but I'd love to hear a bit more about good health paths, because it was mentioned here. If it's not scope of the call then I'm just gonna listen. No, that's the point we all want to educate and learn. Jim, if you want your good health past representative and shepherd would you, if you're not too busy on the other call, could you describe it some more to please. You probably won't have a call. No worries, I'll, I'll check next time. Jim, you might be able to somebody had may have zmail and you could be able to take a good health pass. From my perspective is within lunatic and lunatic exchange. They have. I've been connected with and written in standards and using hyperlinder and the similar to as I was on their projects but they have their own type of verifiable credential the ID method that I believe wraps and JWT's. So, yeah, you can also check the link here. And, and I'm not doing it as justice as much as Jim good, but that's kind of your role. I have a related question for the group, but it would be have been good if Jim was on but it may be others of you have feelings about this. I raised the privacy benefits of your knowledge cruise. And I'm just curious whether in this context, people understand or have something to say about how do you standardize the context for a request like that. Even that vaccinations and testing tend to be relatively fluid things. So it's hard to request the standardized presentation in reality. And I'm just curious how, if anybody has feelings about that or thoughts as to whether that's actually feasible about how you could be able to standardize the KP's in particular so that they could be audible you can trust it and that you're almost surely. I'm saying in the context. Yeah, when when the context is fluid because you know vaccinations are not. You know, covert vaccines are not like months vaccines, let's say right where you had one 100 years ago and that's it. It's a yes or no answer. And when testing has, you know, depends to some extent on you know what the prevalence is and where you did the test and where you've been. So I'm just asking whether your knowledge proof approaches have run into an issue with the context being unclear. So that you can't really interpret a credential in a specified way in order to say yes, you know, I have been vaccinated or I've had the test and I'm negative. That's a great point Adrian and that's that's that represents one of the kind of the tenants of what we're going after for good health pass which is, you know, maintaining privacy preserving infrastructure for allies. But in that context, it's not only just, hey, I've had a credential and you can trust my credential but if there are, and that's a credential around vaccinations plus credentials around testing so then the question becomes, are there temporal rules or constraints temporal regional rules or constraints that have to be enacted upon the verifiable presentation at the same time to say, I have a vaccine. You're in, you're in Iceland and Iceland accepts the Moderna vaccine, and my record shows I had Moderna, or I'm a testing I've had Moderna, and I've had a negative test in the last 24 hours and that's what one of the travel constraints are. So, so building in that rules engine to to support the verifiable presentation in the context of a privacy preserving way is kind of the mess we're sorting through. That's a great point, Jim I think maybe the first place Adrian is there are some attempts right even within the LFPH CCI schema group to first start with studying some of the published like the EU standards on what constitutes the attributes of such a credential. I would say the COVID-19 related credential as an example right that's what trying to come up with a minimal set of attributes, so that, as Jim pointed out subsequent to that, you could build a rules engine, you know obviously compliant based on the way that you're going to, and then, at least be dependent on the fact that these attributes are going to be presented. And as you know, the schema definitions that are a couple of ways depending on their presentation style, whether it's just on LD and the ad context, you understand what is the ontology of that particular presentation, or it could be the hyperledger indie style, you know, pull it out of a blockchain kind of thing so so I think in reality, Adrian, the verifier is going to become a lot more sophisticated than many of the examples we ourselves have all seen in, you know, back to Jim's point, and more of a rules engine based which can be quickly programmed. But maybe it can depend on at least a base set of attributes that are somewhat standardized I think we are trying to attack both those problems. I agree and I'm extrapolating a little bit beyond my intellect here but my understanding is with, if in fact we go with a internationally recognized JSON LD standard and JSON supports RDF, and RDF can be used as a basis for a semantic rules engine, there might be a relatively easy path for harmonization, but but I'm not certain. Well, Jim, I say I really appreciate the way you repeated and describe the problem of what I call the context, and I think it's a, you said it very succinctly, and it's not often said in many of these vaccine credentials for immunity or passport. I mean, in general, you know, people throw away, throw around the word passport, all the time with something else in front of it health passport health cards, etc. And I think you should have the what you said embroidered and posted somewhere. computationally verifiable credentials because I mean, adding social trust and adding people to actually trust the credential itself was a whole nother question. And that, you know, bases and other contextual or semantic representation of it as well. And so that's what we're going into about the, if JSON or JSON web tokens can support RDF, then you have the international ability to connect but certain regions borders countries may not be willing to do so. I think that's where the education evangelization aspect is is greatly coming along and when it comes to the countries governments understanding this technology we're in the first standing 100% and and we're hoping sessions like this and other sessions to educate others on this as well but your question is very valid Adrian. I appreciate that Mike and Adrian I'm humbled by your praise I would offer that drum and read Daniel Bachenheimer and I spent nights and weekends at the, at the beginning of last week, putting together a draft blueprint around seven principles which are similar to SSI but also encompass the semantic rules engine aspect of it which I think we kind of clearly laid out what the challenges and pain points we just alluded to here, as well as user experience because at some level of the UI you can't be sorting through, you know, I'm, oh it's 2pm and I'm in Turkey so therefore I need credential number 52. It's, it's got to have an easy frictionless seamless user experience to to the to the boarding pass or whatever it is that you've got 100% and now to move on to the next topic of the conversation that we are going on to there is a there is a COVID-19 app that uses the ability for AI to to help in the predictive modeling so blockchain we're all pretty familiar that blockchain can help in verifying and authenticating a specific application or a testing result, but then being able to have an AI application that helps to be able to sort out clarity and sense of control that is also very needed. So as a company out of DC called or the Rockville Maryland based I believe, called HHS solutions, who actually in the past has worked with Okie Mech, who is the HHS I believe he's a director or lead for AI within health and human services, as well as Jose Arietta who is the former CIO of Health and Human Service as well. They created the blockchain network HHS accelerate to help for I believe that was great. It wasn't grant management it was just payment and claims reimbursement processing within huge network. For all their vendors it was like vendor management platform they had there. United was actually one of the vendors who supported and built that and they now built this Seekie identity app to help record system symptoms and then predict health outcomes and conditions through all this. I did a couple. I saw their videos they have some things on GitHub which are open source but not much. I then went and actually reached out to the team and said hey tell me about this. They have some interesting models and parameters that they're using to help base in the predictive sense of what they're trying to do here. So they're predicting outcomes like hypertension of lungs predicting of specific age and demographic information that can come from there, but they don't have it in a totally federated model and what I mean federated where the information is just stuck are not stuck, but is captured from the original point of the data information like on a mobile phone or an EHR or anything like that. They more are just taking the information making sure that you trust them as an entity to be able to create all these learning models off of it so it's not totally private privacy preserving at the moment, though that is a method they want to be able to get to and and make possible. So they are operating under Fed ramp high requirements and through the Fed ramp requirements they are using AWS actually to store all this data information and they have had a couple battles within the NIST protocols of 800 803 to be able to meet to those different requirements so they could have the encrypted blockchain methods of relevance to be able to use, but they are currently I believe only using it within Montgomery County Maryland right now for reporting and and that's pretty much the sense I got from them. They are looking to expand their partnerships and partner with other people so I appreciated David and his details to to his platform and and yet so that's all I got here did anyone else read this or find any interesting points of relevance. I don't know much about it but I know David Nguyen and and he did a lot of the groundwork for what Jose area to implemented for what was I think a supply chain management solution and fabric and and when they got the first federal ato but I entered interested to think that it's operating in a fizma high environment because fabric by itself isn't tips 140 dash to compliant so I'd be interested to get more from from David and unison what they what they what they configured. At a higher level Mike I think this is an interesting approach right we so we know that, for example, IBM's for a into health in the classic method of using a centralized system to, you know, do diagnosis and you know it's didn't really take off that much as a matter of fact they're trying to palm that off right now I think because it's just not the big success that they hope it to be. So I know a bunch of people I will to say from the high level view on that I know a bunch of people in the Watson health and it's not that it wasn't beneficial it was just very complex and the deal size they were getting wasn't in the hundreds of millions it was more than just the millions and so that's kind of why they haven't gone to that avenue and they have so when you think of IBM has hundreds of thousands of people that are responsible that are looking forward to you know, receiving certain salaries and bonuses over the course of time, if you're not making hundreds of millions or, you know, on certain deals and solutions, it's not worth IBM's time so that's why they're they're looking to kind of give the complex solution to others out in other networks. And I think that's why this is kind of the same conversation we had a few weeks ago about the general death of blockchain and all that right, that's being bandied about just because IBM had to scale down on that area in general. So I was just going to make the same kind of just because you know I mean it's not that technology you know that IBM's AI technology can be just champions and do all sorts of amazing things that you are absolutely right it's just the scale, and maybe the scale needs to be at projects like the one you just you know showed tries to solve a much smaller subset of problems in a in a more decentralized way and therefore, it's likely to meet success because of the scale of operations so I think this is a great start again into this area and applying these principles. So, anyone else on COVID vcs and AI adding another component into into predictive circumstances. As anyone explored this at all, developed it. Mike has Marie Wallace from IBM been on to present their health pass. I got to reach out to him to know I've talked to Jason and the or atha about potentially getting them involved in presentations here. But yeah, if you could reach out to her. I'd love to have them present IBM health pass because of the diversity of thought. She's an IBM she's an Ireland so it's a respectable time for her to be involved. Yeah. Nice. Good to know. Yeah, no please please read doctor and you have my email you can see me on there and we can get a schedule and something. No problem. Oh yeah they're part of good health pass to. Yep. Awesome. Cool. Well, we'll move on from that topic into man NFTs have taken off huh and we're going to have those top shot or other type of a crypto collectibles. So, we're all kind of familiar in industry of understanding, you know, trends and so on so forth. I found this overview of NFT and 1000 true fans as a very interesting article by Chris Dixon Chris Dixon is one of the partners at Anderson Horowitz, who is a VC firm based in Silicon Valley. He is their crypto and blockchain partner. Whenever he read something I pay attention and I try and understand it. I found this take very, very relevant pretty much in the beginning he says people always say they need to find product market fit so they can get millions and millions of users. When in reality all you truly need is 1000 true fans and diehards that can be able to carry your business around. And so he goes over different ideas of DVDs and song artists of how have you have 1000, you know very true fans at your business. People will drive hundreds of miles away to be able to to see you and be able to see you perform. And so within NFTs, we're at the point where you're able to have 1000s of true fans be able to dedicate a lot of their wealth a lot of their time a lot of their energy to making this thing a thing. And crypto and specifically NFTs have been able to do that and create marketplaces for so many different things. Like for instance, crypto collectible rankings over the past 30 days have skyrocketed within MBA top shot. And I've been luckily close to this as since my days of consensus, in particular in 2017 18 NFTs and crypto collectibles were one of the highly discussed topics, and we're things about how we can truly make different avenues of revenue along this line. And then when I was at Accenture, I had the privilege to be able to pitch to the MBA of how crypto collectible can truly make the money. They didn't see it. When I was presenting to them in summer of 2018 in particular, or they saw it, but they didn't know how to get started into it. And we referenced over dapper labs and some other entities. I think they took our conversation to heart many of times but they obviously went to the for a and dapper got so big where the MBA and other partners couldn't help but join into their, their different type of solutions but the entities are truly taken off and I think it's a new medium where, you know, if we were able to trust, or we were able to have value in cardboard pieces of paper, or cardboard pieces that had faces of baseball players or, or athletes on there, and that we had, you know, bean bags that were shaped as animals like baby babies have value. Why can't something for many digitally native users or younger folks or people overseas that may be more digitally inclined. Why can a video clip that is enable that enables them to have the ownership of it be worth the value as well. I mean, value is in the eye of the beholder. There's even marketplaces today where basketball shoes which are really made between, $5 to $15 if they have a certain shape or certain NBA player or athlete is assigned to them like Jordan's, it can be worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars due to the situation the moment and everything like that. And people can attribute to, to different things and videos and feel something from that so if, if you feel something or get it, you know, get an emotion from a video clip or anything like that. I think it's highly valuable or art digital art that not only you but millions of others can be able to own as well. It's worth something so that's my rant on NFTs and the other thoughts. Well, I, I really appreciate that if it was you that attached that half hour podcast webcast to the invitation about NFTs. I thought, I thought that was a really, really interesting take on it, mostly because he's talking about it from the perspective not a financial value or trading value actually the opposite, but from the perspective of community building in the in a nonprofit context. And I found, I at least found that to be a very important perspective sort of Dallas 2.0. If you want to think of it that way. For example, simply using NFTs as the mechanism for voting. And he put it quadratic voting. This is decidedly not a corporate use of the technology in the sense that defy is it's not fractional ownership, but rather it is steering the attention of a community. So I think that based on the actual content of the community rather than a network effect, for example, or Ponzi scheme, or anything in between. So the video if anybody hasn't watched the video which you sent around. It's really, really cool. Put it in the chat too. So I think the define has some good content as well. And they mentioned that that whole concept as well. If you don't want to read. This is a good audio or video visual representation for you to understand the concept to so it's relevant. Any other ideas, thoughts or, or points of note on this. You know, like my team and I, we're looking at an extension of our project exploring whether or not NFTs or verifiable credentials would be the better route for for achieving what we're looking to do. And I guess I'd put it out to everyone on the on the call here. If you think about healthcare. You know, we collectively have kind of come to the consensus that it's difficult for us to see how NFTs are really going to translate in a space where identity and security is so important. And, you know, especially without diving too deep into into what we're envisioning. NFTs may not be the best, best medium for achieving that. I don't know if anybody thought about it or or is working on anything similar but I, you know, it seems like it doesn't it doesn't seem like there that there there's probably as much utility and healthcare, at least from my standpoint or what we're working on and but but I mean I think I think it's brilliant and it's it's certainly here to stay but but from a healthcare perspective. There's just there's just too many other variables that they have to consider that that I struggle to see where NFTs really have a place in this market. So, so John offer for your consideration and actually I think in your defense that I agree with you 100%, but if we're willing to start doing blank slate thinking around how things could work as exemplified by Airbnb and Uber and etc etc. The concept of NFTs being built around a an econometric market closed market between providers, some source of payments, and, and, and employers and kind of a company mining town model that I like to refer to, where, you know, the, the, the haven model of JP Morgan, I think and I'm just expounding here but I think was unexplored, because the idea that I have hundreds of thousands of employees, I have a financial network that's completely underwritten by my own finances and all I need to do is buy an IDN and have a healthcare delivery network I can establish my own NFT slash crypto amongst myself for services I buy, which also allows me to create my own economic gamification and rules around well being and, and, and healthiness and all this sort of thing. And I think, to your point, that's a little space flight, but it's, it's worth documenting to me. I totally agree. Right. I totally, I totally agree with you on it. I just know what no in the healthcare community like I do. You know, I'm not I don't I think it's something that you know, five to 10 years from now as you know, blockchain solutions become more mainstream and more more widely adopted. I think it's something that that can become more prevalent. But I just think in the current environment to try to bring, you know, an NFT solution or, or, or, or some type of tokenization for, for whatever. I think, I think there's going to be some pushback, especially right now when there's so much an emphasis on patient data security. And I think we've got to fight that battle first before NFTs really will, will have a place in the space that's, that's my opinion I look I, I, I think it's extremely sexy right so you know as a as a business person. You know, certainly I'd love to be able to find a way to do it effectively. But at the same time. You know, it's, you know, this, we're trying to, we're trying to change, you know, a healthcare system that is about as reluctant to change as they come. So, you know, trying to get them to change process and protocol, even in things that are extremely low hanging fruit and, and, you know, seem simple right for anybody to grasp. Because it's not what they're used to doing. And everybody in healthcare hates change. So, I, you know, for me it's like to invest in, in, in that early on, in trying to create, you know, someone of a paradigm shift and some, some, you know, in some pocket of healthcare that we're working in. I just get concerned about, you know, is, are we fighting a battle that that another battle has to be won before, before we can even fight it. I think we all kind of see that point of view, but I do want to transition to our last topic, which goes over. So clinical situations may not be as relevant for NFTs, but research medical research could be an avenue where NFTs come to market so I found this this group within research hub in particular, they distributed this project called research coin, where they were giving users the ability to curate discuss summarize academic literature, so it's more digestible to other people. Since then, research coin gave away all of this, right, in particular, and they had some lessons learned on there. And what's what the end result was is sure you may not be able to have a specific like B to B model in this but it comes to user engagement and being able to have as you're getting paid for helping deliver more concise content or summarize content and being able to to get this in the hands of not just because academics can put language out for their publication and it cannot be some of it is not digestible to everyday people. Over time, if you have different networks and consortium like this, you'd be able to not only increase engagement, but increase understanding of highly technical and complex academic literature. So I found this project very interesting, someone in an NFT model but it was more they just want to give it away to see what the engagement was truly about so when you get everyone's take on this in particular as we have a couple minutes left on maybe doing this for medical research, could it be something that's a reality for us. I think the answer is absolutely. And this is, you know, this is where patient groups sort of could come together. You know, and I'm speaking as, you know, CTO of patient privacy rights, volunteer CTO of a privacy advocacy nonprofit, we solving the problem of data trusts. And there are seven different flavors of these kind of communities of patients, organized to solve a particular problem which you characterized as research which I think is a totally fair characterization. It, you know, a patient group is not interested in a financial outcome, they're interested in surviving the year. And the disability for example of processing research data into, you know, usable requests for consent to contribute to various research projects or, or whatever to do the patients like me type stuff that we saw, you know, 15 years ago, I think is a could very well be built around NFP principles. Awesome. I totally agree. I also just put it in note here. There's a company I'm familiar with here in the Philadelphia region because I love Philadelphia and I think it's the best city in the world called Health Union, where they create social networks for patients with chronic diseases. What I've always thought about is, hey, the more something that is part of the social network groups, the more they add detail, and the more they add kind of the clinical feedback loop which they're doing in these current groups and they have a ton of user engagement. So if you ever reimbursed those people for tokens for the results or, you know, microtransactions of not just crypto but fiat currency, you can be able to create a huge dynamic where these people would want to engage more within the Health Union app more so than ever. And that's, that's one game change an idea I can give to everyone today, which is something I'm not doing at the moment, but to be very beneficial. Maybe we do it in human or one day who knows or maybe we do it within Thomas Jefferson research. But that's it for today. I appreciate everyone's time I do have to stop the recording because I have to go to 11 o'clock meeting. Thank you everyone for the engagement today and the questions and the tidbits. John I hope we can get to clinical NFT use cases one day when maybe we just stick to research today and and thank you everyone for joining. I do have any questions you have my email. We do have an open topic for in two weeks. We may have the IBM team present we may be having others. If anyone has any interesting companies ideas thoughts that they want to present. Please it's an open forum to do so. And I will see you guys in two Wednesdays from now. Thank you Mike. Thank you.