 Welcome. Thank you for being here thrilled to have you joining us either live or on the recording. Today we are talking with Dana Skirlock, director of recruitment with staffing boutique who has been a presenting sponsor of ours from the very beginning and that's March of 2020 when we started this. So Dana is here talking to us about what's up with npo staffing right now because we know there's been quite a few changes and we're really excited to dive into this conversation. But before we do we want to make sure that you know who you're looking at or possibly listening to Julia Patrick is taking another rest day thrilled for her Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Julia Patrick Ransom your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group. And as I mentioned staffing boutique we are so honored to have their continued support, as well as our other presenting sponsors, such as blooming American nonprofit Academy, fundraising nonprofit nerd, your part time controller moves management nonprofit leader, as well as the nonprofit Atlas. Thank you thank you thank you to all of these sponsors that keep us going and growing. And here we are with Dana, again, a thrill to have staffing boutique back with us. So Dana, tell me what is the director of recruitment what are those responsibilities that you're in charge of. Sure. So, as I was saying, I have worked with staffing boutique for the past five years. I came on board. When Katie was in a very entrepreneurial state with the company. We've since grown over the five years and we now have a team of four staff members full time. The director of recruitment. I oversee the everyday functions of the job searches that we're working on. So that includes job postings initial screenings of candidates candidate recruitment, you know presenting resumes to the client and my favorite part which is partnering, you know with the clients, the hiring managers on what it is that they're looking for in the search. So, you know that means looking at the job description, reviewing it providing feedback to the client on the application and then, you know, managing the client's expectations really like what can they expect from a candidate do I feel like the job description is too comprehensive is it, you know, is it something that is likely to be able to be found in the job market or not, you know I provide all that kind of information and then we really pride ourselves on being a hiring partner with the organization. We don't kind of want to turn and burn people like I think staffing agencies in general just the industry has that stigma attached to it. That, you know when you're in a pinch you can hire attempt but it's not going to be a long term fit they'll place anybody they can there it's not you know well thought out. We really because we specialize in nonprofits were focused on a particular industry, we really want to make a partnership and make a long term match with the organization. So it's, you know, a situation where even if something is for like a couple of months. We want to find somebody that you know if the client wants to keep the person longer that they have the option to or they might be a long term fit the organization to go from temp to perm. So we're not just kind of sending whoever can kind of do the job we're looking for somebody that's mission driven for the particular organization they're going to even if it's a short term job. That's true alignment, looking towards that partnership so that I mean that to me definitely creates win win. If you like what you're listening to all of this will be put on to Roku YouTube fire TV as well as Vimeo, as well as conversations going to go into podcast so make sure that you queue up the nonprofit show wherever you might listen to your podcast. And we've already, you know, really dove into the deep end dive dive in it if someone can tell me the proper term that would be great but you know let's move into what does the can like, you looking at the space now Dana and thank you for providing all that you did on on, you know how you serve the community in this niche nonprofit market. We're hearing that it really is this candidate driven marketplace. Is that true. That is 100% true. You know when I first started recruiting this was back in 2006 and aging myself. It was 2006 I started as a candidate recruiter who I just did phone screens with candidates and then set them up to come in for in person interviews with the recruiters. So I really started at the bottom and work my way up within this industry. It was a candidate driven market back then, and the reason was is that the economy was before the 2008, you know, reception, and the unemployment rate was extremely low like it is now for other reasons, you know, and it was a similar situation so I've seen these ebbs and flows over time. This situation that we're in now in 2022 I would say is similar, not in the reasons it started but similar in the way that it's now affecting the job market. Yeah, as it was in 2006, meaning when I say it's like a candidate driven market candidates are the ones really able to make demands and be able to have them met in terms of salary in terms of work life balance and flexibility. In terms of their start dates, their schedules, you know, they're really in the driver's seat. And that's due to the labor shortage, you know, whether it's due to the, you know, obviously COVID is a big determining factor in that. It's a great resignation, as they've kind of coined it in the media as well. So, the bottom line is there's a lot of skilled jobs that are out there that need a certain level of experience. And there's not enough candidates in the market to fill them that creates a scarcity, which means that as a hiring manager or hiring organization. They need to be with each other for the top candidates. That was always the case. But now it's even, you know, now it's even more competitive to be able to attract top talent. So that turns into candidates being able to dictate higher salaries candidates being able to say, you know what I'm not interested in, you know, going back into the office I want to work remotely. I think it's a good role where you're part time in the office part time at home, or if it's fully remote I speak with a lot of candidates per week. Both on the, you know, just an initial screening, I have candidates that I'm placing in jobs I have people that I've already placed in positions that I'm speaking with. And that is, you know, consistently been the mantra of all levels whether it's entry level or senior level. They, you know, I think senior level candidates throughout the time I've recruited from 2006 to now. They always were able to command a little bit more. Obviously salary but also like, if they had more demands they were able to get them met because they were senior level candidates and have special skills. So they always would push back a little bit more and say like hey you know I want one day a week where I can work from home or I want a different type of schedule. You get that sometimes. I'm seeing those starts, those types of demands with entry level candidates for like, you know, entry level administrative position candidates are pushing for those types of things. So it's a tricky place for an employer. I ask because I follow staffing boutique on LinkedIn I see all these posts up. We're hiring we're hiring we're hiring, and I feel like you do a fantastic job saying if this is an in office position, if it's a hybrid or if it's full remote. I want to talk to us a little bit about, you know, how we can perhaps set those expectations and possibly like, you know, level the playing field when it comes to the potential negotiation of the candidate like, how can we get ahead of those conversations. Sure. You know, and thank you for saying that that, you know, our posts on LinkedIn are very transparent between Katie and I were usually the ones placing them, and we do like to be very transparent from moment one. Is this job temporary, is it time to perm, is it to retire, is it at home as a hybrid. We put everything in the postings that we send out inevitably however we will speak with candidates who have read that information. And I have not read it carefully. Right. And it turns out when you speak with them they're looking for something different and didn't realize, or you have people that will apply anyway. And they apply with the hopes that they can negotiate with the position or with the organization or with us to change the parameters of the job. That has kind of always been the case, but it's rampant now, due to, you know, it being so candidate driven now. So what happens is you get on the, on the horn with somebody or you do a zoom interview and they say, I noticed this job was supposed to be in person is there any flexibility with that, you know, is immediately kind of what they're going to I can say these things and as a high manager or an organization if you're looking on your own, like being transparent I think is the best way to get the candidates that we need, but there will still just be applicants who are going to try it with you anyway. And I think we just have to kind of be prepared for that. What about the salary increase you know you touched on this a little bit before Dana but if you can dive a little deeper. Do we have to increase our salary, I've heard this term compression, right where there's so much. There's not a lot of wiggle room kind of in that mid management so we're seeing compression where if we bring in someone brand new at an at a higher salary. We now have to look at the person with in whom they're reporting to, because there might not be a lot of gap there so what are we seeing by way of salaries, having to increase right now. Yeah, that's a great question and it's a complicated issue I think because I've never heard it referred to as compression before but that is a brilliant way to summarize. You're trying to attract top talent, especially at the mid level. And so you're increasing your salaries and your postings, but then the person that's overseeing them or maybe somebody lateral is suddenly getting paid less. Right, you know, or the gap between the manager and the person they're overseeing is only $5,000 or something. People talk information trickles out. There's also a big call just culturally for transparency from the corporate world which you know nonprofits obviously are outside of the corporate world but at the same time they are within the commerce. And it's still people's careers so that people are looking for that for it to be clear what salaries are people making within this company and is it equitable. And so that is something that I think is going to have to be restructured from the ground up within organizations and planned ahead I think what a lot of people end up doing is they do exactly what you're describing they post a job. They, they find they can't hire somebody at the price point that they could maybe three years ago, they raise the salary and bring somebody on board, and then they have to deal with the fallout of having brought that person on board, rather than having thought about it ahead of time. That may mean speaking to your current manager assessing their performance offering them a $10,000 ways, then going about hiring the person that's going to be under them and strategizing what that salary is going to need to look like and making sure that it's equitable with what you're asking those two positions to do and how they interact. So, how many organizations or companies are sort of revamping their whole system from the ground up like that, I would say very few. When I speak to Canada, I'm sorry when I speak to clients organizations about these structures. These are the types of conversations that I'm having and most people go, I never thought about that I hadn't even considered that but I did have a situation in this other department where it was something similar. And honestly, do companies do organizations have the budget to the bandwidth to suddenly increase salaries for everyone to accommodate new salaries coming in. Some may, some may not, you know, not everybody is, you know, IRC or Michael J. Fox Foundation, you know that have millions of dollars at their disposal to, you know, maybe be able to do that. I also work with the small mom and pop organizations, and they may not have the bandwidth to do that right now. But what is their solution. Those are the types of tough questions that we're having asked but in general, candidates are, you know, entry level mid level they're really not willing to take salaries that are under market, even if they're borderline, they're really pushing for an increase in in price points to do with inflation that we've all been dealt. Experiencing that and some of that to and again we kind of dabbled in a little bit of all of this because after this work life balance conversation we're going to move into the Jedi justice equity verse diversity inclusion. But as as candidates are negotiating their salary, you mentioned this Dana they're also negotiating. Are you flexible with this, you know, remote work and you know there's a lot of work life balance as top of mind it's a priority for so many people were verbalizing it more than ever, I believe. So how has this played a role in the workforce and in hiring currently. Absolutely. I think we have seen a complete like revamping of the workplace landscape in terms of just the logistics. Everyone went remote during the pandemic pandemics not technically over but during the height of the pandemic let's say, and that shift has really just greatly changed everything candidates now know that much of their position much of their job duties can be completed remotely. We're in the technological age is probably wouldn't have been possible 1015 years ago, but in 2020 to 2022 it is. And candidates know that hiring managers and organizations know that as well. They're also enjoying the benefits of being able to work from home. So there's a mutual, you know, interest from managers and from sort of the line workers in continuing this remote work. Now that said, there are certain organizations and companies for whom it is detrimental to have everyone working remotely all the time. So for those folks. How do we bring them back into the fold. How do we negotiate bringing candidates interest back into coming into the office. And I think that that's a tough sell sometimes to candidates, especially now. They're seeing a lot of their friends have jobs where I work for Google or I work for this company and they let us work from home anyway now we work 100% of the time from home. So I'm not PTO and, and, you know, whatever else so there's a lot of going on that I honestly Dana like I don't think all nonprofits can keep up with the with the trends. I think you're right. And that's what's tricky because a lot of them are doing such important work for society. I think it's important for our local community for the international community that I really want to support them. And obviously it's, it's for everyone's benefit that they continue to thrive. There's certain things that some nonprofits they simply can't do remotely, like if you're a homeless shelter, or if you're a patterned women's shelter, you can't only work from home. So how do we support those organizations, how do we, you know, retool the way we advertise positions to candidates to help them still be able to get top talent, despite not being able to being able to offer all of the perks other types of organizations can. I think we're moving towards in general, a more hybrid office environment. It's going to be in the 2020s I think that in the history books it's going to kind of say work move towards a more remote style in the 2020s like with the I like, I haven't spoken to any candidates in the past year and a half, who has not said it's a deal breaker I don't want to work in the office five days a week. So if they can command it right now, God forbid the economy were to change and go on a downward trend scarcity breeds, you know, it reads opportunities. It could swap in a few years and then if it's client driven and there's, you know, all these out of work people and there's only a few jobs, people will do whatever it takes to have the job and so if that means going to the office five days a week they think there's been a cultural shift is all that to say that it's a huge cultural shift. Yeah, and fun fact actually Julia Patrick shared this with us I want to say probably 18 months ago but that there was a spike in purchasing shirts like blouses and a decrease in purchasing pants. Yeah, everything to do with this hybrid remote, you know, culture and population because I met, you know, these two women that I've been in business with for over five years are probably not that's an exaggeration let's just say three right, and had not met them in person until last night and we joked and said we've only seen each other, literally from here up. And so looking at this remote space it's, you know, I really agree with you it's not going anywhere this hybrid is is here to stay. I was talking with a client of mine and instead of having you know everyone have an office they've really moved to having these drop in offices. When you want to come in the office it's there you can print you have meetings you can do you know whatever you need, but no one has an office placard anymore right it's just kind of a if it's available. It's yours for for the taking so so many great points here. You talked a little bit also about you know transparency, I see transparency in this equitable space Dana when it comes to, you know just being honest and holy upfront in your posting what is your salary range, you know, all of this so how are organizations moving through their commitment to DI diversity equity inclusion. I like to say Jedi because one that's just, you know, a lot more fun to say Jedi but that includes the justice piece, you know as well as other values, what are you seeing your clients you know serving by way of this commitment. So this is an area where I think that the nonprofit sector has been ahead of the curve. I've always spoken with organizations who are concerned with equity. Obviously it makes sense, their missions are usually, you know, are usually about an issue of equity. I have always heard more from nonprofits about these issues when I did hear them like often people would call us even back in 2006 and say hey, we would love to make sure that the slate of candidates that you send us are racially diverse. You know, we have an under representation of X group in our organization. If you could find somebody that fits this particular demographic it would be great. I've heard that more than certainly my colleagues and other agencies that worked out who are working with corporate clients, they would never mention what you know they wouldn't say it couldn't be a certain group but they would never be worried about diversified. Sure, that said, there's been again a cultural shift where you know the public is demanding more transparency and equity from all facets of society starting with the corporate world and certainly in your work environment where you're spending 40 to 50 hours a week. And so organizations who have not thought about this at all are starting to have to think about it. Organizations who have done the bare minimum of saying hey we you know we notice that this group is underrepresented can we try and find somebody that is in that demographic. That to me is sort of like the baseline of what you should be looking at like at least you're noticing those things, but to really be fully equitable, you really have to like dismantle the issues within your organization from the ground up. So if you don't have a certain group of people represented in your leadership team, rather than just trying to find somebody that can you know fill that hole. It's also a question of like have you evaluated your organization and determine why that has been what hiring practices have you had in place that have prevented that from happening. Is it a candidate shortage in that demographic or is it actually where you look that's limited. Is it because the people that you hire that are in this certain demographic that's underrepresented. Don't feel comfortable there and they don't stay like these are all things that you have to comprehensively review and relies within an organization to make it truly equitable and that's the place that we're at now. So whether some nonprofits were ahead of the curve, you know, in the past, you know, is great, but at the same time, we have a lot of very well educated, very smart, culturally savvy candidates out there. They're very passionate about racial diversity about, you know, social justice, and they are looking for organizations that mirror those values. So the way you can really start being able to mirror those values is with transparency with the job, and with a job search process. You know, for the candidate that treats them with dignity, that values their humanity values their time, you know, making sure that you are getting back to people, making sure that the salary ranges are transparent from the get go. And I'm sorry to interrupt like how much this diversity equity inclusion and you use the word dismantle which is a strong word and I love the power behind it. We're also having to dismantle our compensation structure, and it's not easy right but our compensation structure, our recruitment structure like it takes a lot of work and no one said that it would be easy but I think there's a quote that said it'll always be worth it right. And that's really important. Dana while I have you live we have a guest that the sense and a question and I want to honor their curiosity here. So they write in and they ask our salaries are competitive our benefits are generous and we offer a lot of flexibility regarding home office worksite options. However, we only receive one to two resumes for a job posting. How can we entice people to apply. Great question. So it's a really interesting question. I would say number one question where you're posting it. Is it a website, or a source without knowing what the sources it's hard for me to speculate but is that a source that's going to attract the types of candidates that you're looking for. So if you're looking for something very specialized in nonprofit and you're posting on like monster calm right you may not be finding the right candidates because people look at it and say oh I'm not at all in that field and pass it by. I think also sometimes some of the most attractive features of a job can be buried in a job description, like if you tag it on in the third paragraph and it's sort of towards the bottom. People just aren't going to be able to read the nitty gritty of every job that they, you know, pass by on a job board. So maybe putting it in the top, like job title, work from home options, generous benefits package in the title of the job. People are going to click on that, and at least they'll read it more carefully. So don't bury the, you know, the lead in the bottom of the email, you know, you want to kind of leave with your best stuff. Also networking personally, as an in person, I think is the best way to job search as a candidate. And it also really helps with organizations that are trying to diversify and I don't mean diversify racially or, or, you know, gender wise but just diversifying I think they're able to get into their organization and for people to find out about them. Going in person to events like women in development, we're always at their events the end of the year women achievement luncheon, we do fundraising day every year which is in person for Association of fundraising professionals. Those are the types of things that you should be attending. Because what ends up happening is you get your name out there, people remember who you are. You get your information out there and I've known so many people that from these events end up getting a job, or they're able to hire somebody for a position by going to these in person events. The other option is to call me, if you're having trouble finding someone, you can reach out to us. Dana, you know, because that's what our specialty is because I do understand. As a hiring manager, you've got your nine to five job that you're doing for the organization to hire somebody on top of that is a whole other 40 hour wait job and most people do not have the time to really like, dig in and post enough ads and and revamp the ads and and go through all the resumes and things like that. You have your own job to do. So that's where we come in. You give us the job description. We have a database of 10s of thousands of candidates that are all not profit specific. We have a network of networking events. We have a network of people that are referred to us. Every day we've got people that are placed on jobs or have been placed that are recommending people to us. And we've just been in the industry for for a long time. That's where staffing agency can be very useful. So there's my contact information. Right on, right on cue. I would love to talk to you for hours Dana and I would love to. I hope that you will come back I know that staffing between you. I wonderful presenting sponsors of ours and has really been involved with us like we said you know from the very beginning. Katie was so gracious. Love what you're doing we had never met her, you know all through the power of networking online and so that has really developed our relationship. Thank you for all that you do because I know it takes a lot so grateful to have you in our sector so grateful to have you with staffing boutique. Again, you know these times wrap up so quickly. It's only a 30 minute episode but you can find all of these episodes online. Thanks to Julia Patrick for thinking this would be a two week kind of endeavor and here we are into our third year. We're honored to be here. Hey, I have some exciting news. Thanks to blimmering I will be broadcasting the nonprofit show live from the AFP icon show in Las Vegas. Thank you I'm super excited so if any of you watching listening are going to be in Sin City may second through the fourth call me. Let's get in touch let's have a coffee or a cocktail would love to see any and all of you and again thank you staffing boutique for being one of our amazing presenting sponsors right beside blimmering American nonprofit company fundraising Academy nonprofit nerd your part time controller moves management nonprofit thought leader as well as the nonprofit Atlas. So honored to have your continued commitment, not just to us in these episodes but truly the sector at large we are all doing such fantastic work we are grateful to have partners like staffing boutique and Dana. Thank you for today so Dana. Thank you for your time, your valuable expertise, it did not go unnoticed and unheard. So thank you for sharing all that you did. Love to get you back on let's take a look at our June calendar. Anytime you'd like any time you'd like congratulations on everything and I wish you the best of luck with the podcast and you know anytime you'd like to have me back I'd be happy to come so thank you so much. I will reach out to you as soon as I can. For all of you that joined us either live or on the recording. Thank you, and please stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.