 Welcome everybody to the sixth and final, for now, installment of OFE's open source policy series. My name is Sivan Petch. I am OFE's research director, and I'm very glad that you are all joining us for tonight's concluding event. I'm personally very excited to listen to today's speakers. For those who don't know us, Open from Europe is a Brussels-based think tank working on the intersection of open technologies and public policy. Now, the devastating effect of climate change needs little introduction. I'm sure some of you have seen that Canada is experiencing new record highs of 45 degrees plus in the last few days, and we're not even in the warmest month of the year yet. If anything, this year will be the coolest year of the rest of our lives, and the effect is naturally much more fundamental than just having a hot summer. The urgency to tackle climate change is clear. So we asked ourselves, how can open source contribute to addressing this challenge? Before we talk about energy grids, I wanted to give you a little insight into the open source study we conducted for the European Commission. Here, we investigated open source potential for the perspective of reducing resource consumption. We found that open source has significant potential to play an important role. Integrating open source components reduces the need for duplicate software development, so saving human and capital costs to work on innovative and differentiating functions. At the same time, open source and open source hardware work as an engine of commoditization and thus have the effect of moving the differentiation motivation higher up the value chain, making it unnecessary to work on the base functions. Software and hardware components available in open source increase the deptability of software and devices, meaning they can be adjusted to the needs at hand. This promotes reuse and thus reduces the impact on resources. And another aspect we looked at in the study is preparability, which is increased with the usage of open source and could be a tool to implement a right to repair. When suppliers are required to ensure their products are repairable, open source can provide compliance to such a requirement. Similarly, through the release of design materials and source code, continued maintenance can be ensured and maintenance requirements are satisfied. But there are many facets of reducing our carbon footprint and today we want to focus in on energy grids. According to the European Environmental Agency, energy supply currently makes up the biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions in Europe. A shift away from fossil energy sources toward renewable energy sources requires a clean digitized and electrified system with many distributed resources. Developing and implementing these systems is a shared task of the sector and herein lies the potential for open source to contribute. As many of you know, open source reduces transaction costs when developing collaboratively, making it easy for the sector to work together to develop the necessary systems. So today we'll explore how open source can support the Green Deal, what the challenges and opportunities are that still need to be taken. To discuss this first, Mark Fitzdiffaut, deputy head of unit at the Innovation Research Digitalization and Competitives Unit at DG Energy of the European Commission will give us introduction to their work to bring about the Green Deal. After that, he will be joined by Shuli Goodman, executive director of LF Energy at the Linux Foundation and our own Satya Kumuto, CEO of OpenFromEurope for a panel moderated by Laurent Schmidt, chair at the Digital Task Force at SmartEN. Just a bit of housekeeping before we get started. We want the policy series to be a space for open exchange and we're happy to take questions from the audience. If you'd like to ask a question during the panel, please write your question in the chat or use the Ask Question feature in Crowdcast. Please also take note that this event, like all OFE activities, is covered by the OFE Community Participation Guidelines, which you can read on our website. And a reminder, this event is being recorded. So now without further ado, I invite Mark on to the stage to start his keynote. Welcome. So I will disappear for a second and we'll be listening to you. Yes, thank you very much and thank you to OpenFromEurope for organizing this discussion. Very timely, very interested, so I'm very happy to be here and honored to give to you a keynote. I will, I would like to address or discuss three things with you. Of course, first of all, the bigger picture, so to say what is happening in the commission when it comes to the link between the Green Deal and making your fit for the digital age so what are the key policies at the moment that we're working on, then focus what the role of digitalization is in there, and so the digital technologies in the Green Deal zoom in a bit on that. And last but not least, I think on one of the key points, of course, how do we deal with, how do we trigger innovation in this area based on more and better data sharing and the role of open source in them? So that's in a nutshell what I would like to talk to you about. Maybe starting with the first point, I don't think it's news to many of you that at the moment in the commission we're working very hard to make the final steps to come out with a big pack of legal proposals in a few weeks, that is the so-called fit for 55 package. You know that the EU has agreed to with the ambition to be climate neutral by 2050, and in order to be climate neutral by 2050, we also need to step up our efforts and our targets for 2030 because if we want to be climate neutral by 2050, and considering the importance of going fast because we have a limited carbon budget so to say as a planet, it is important that we make big steps now and the previous targets of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions by 40% by 2030, we're putting too much emphasis on, let's say the last decade towards 2050, and with an increase of ambition for 2030 to 55% greenhouse gas emission reductions, we want to make sure that we invest now in the right things that meet to happen to put us on course for the climate neutrality by 2050. By the way, I have to apologize for the noise in the background. I don't know how disturbing it is for you. For me, it's quite okay, but I know that sometimes with the speaker, this can be a bit different, but there are some works going on in the street, so apologies for that. This is the new reality of tailor working. So getting back to what I was talking about. The fit for 55 packets, so what we're preparing at the moment is legal proposals on the emission trading scheme to go to 55%, so that is for the big installations above 20 megawatt, the big industrial installations and strengthening basically the carbon limit so that we reach 55% greenhouse gas emission reduction by 2030 as well as a discussion on how we then distribute the non ETS sector, so the smaller installations in that as well. At the same time, we want to see if we can extend the emission trading scheme to also transport and buildings because of course, let's say heating from electricity is now included and heating from gas boilers is not and we see that this leads to discrepancies and wrong investment signals in the sense that it makes electricity too expensive and gas too cheap. If you think of the ambition that we have, namely promoting the use of electricity and reducing the use of fossil fuel gases. So that is another important dimension of this. Link to that is of course, how do we then compensate for the people that will feel the effects and have the most difficulties bearing them? So how can we support, let's say the most vulnerable among us to bring them along on the transition to make sure that it's fair and just. At the same time, we're looking at a proposal to enhance the use of electric mobility both by strengthening the emission limits for cars and trucks and also by promoting the investment in alternative fuel infrastructure. So both e-mobility in particular, charging points as well as for renewable fuels in particular for shipping and aviation. And later this year, there is a second part of the fit for 55 package coming that will look at the gas decarbonization and the energy performance of buildings directive. And so as part of the package now also for July, we're looking at new renewable targets and new energy efficiency targets. And the aim here is to make sure that we don't just set a high level target for greenhouse gas emission reduction, but we also accompany that with concrete measures and strategies like on buildings, but also on offshore energy, for example, last year to make sure that we work as Europe to achieve these targets with concrete investments. And of course, linked to this, what is very important is that we're in a kind of unprecedented situation of coming out of a crisis recovering from that with a new instrument namely the next generation EU and as part of that, the big recovery and resilience facility with a lot of investment support for national governments to recover from this crisis. And so you know this, I think the recovery facility is an instrument of something like 650 billion Euro half, more or less half of that loans, half of that grants and member states have drafted plans of how they want to use that money. And as a commission or as the EU, we have agreed that we would prioritize a few key sectors in there because we want to use this public money and these investments to recover from the crisis also to build a better EU and use this to support both the digital transition and the green deal and the energy transition. So the requirements for all the member states were that they would spend at least I think 37% on clean technologies. And there we asked them to prioritize renewables, hydrogen has a renewable based energy system, renovations as well as new infrastructure for immobility and other transport modes. And there is also a requirement to invest at least 20% in digital technologies to make our society also fit for the digital age, investing for example in 5G networks in innovation in the digital sector. So these two things together, 20% in digital, 37% in climate and clean tech with a budget of basically for the whole EU of 600, more than 600 billion euros or something like 630 billion euro which is in addition to what member states are spending already to come back from the crisis had the support that member states are planning already to kickstart the economy again and come out of this crisis. So there is a huge opportunity if we put all these things next to each other to really transform the way our society works to put it on a path to sustainability and there is a clear recognition for the role of digital and clean technologies in this. And of course the synergies between both are key. So let me spend a few words on that. If you look at the example I was mentioning, the energy performance of buildings directive and the role digital technologies play in smart building, smart building management. If we talk about new fuel infrastructure and E mobility charging points and the way they have to be equipped with smart charging in order to allow for batteries in cars to contribute to the integration of renewables and also make sure that these cars can actually be charged with renewable energy. If we talk about the translating 55% greenhouse gas emission reduction in renewable targets and making sure that we build out renewables even faster than we're already planning. And if we look for example at on the one hand big offshore windparks, but on the other hand a lot of that renewables that will be connected at the distribution grid. All of those things will need to be integrated into a system and that system needs to be much smarter. So all the investments in digital and digital technologies and communication infrastructure we are also trying to bring them together and to see how can those things all together also drive a digitalization of the energy system because we think that is absolutely necessary if we want to create a renewable based energy system. We cannot count on fossil fuel power plants anymore to be able to switch on and switch off when our demand is peaking. We need to be much smarter about it on the one hand triggering demand response so making use of all the distributed assets connected to the grids like batteries in cars like cooling houses or things like that that can adjust their demands so that we can integrate the renewables better. And this is absolutely necessary if on the one hand we want to make most value out of the renewables that we're building so that we don't need to curtail them and on the other hand if we want to make sure that the investments in the grid to be able to transport this energy around Europe is also kept to the most efficient level possible and that we don't need to build out grids for peaks of a few hours per year. So this requires a very sophisticated system of a lot of communication between different parties and so what we are currently working on is a digitalization of energy action plan that is foreseen to come out next year where we want to demonstrate how the different things that we are doing all together work towards a more digital energy system. So this is not necessarily a new piece of legislation it's a lot about implementing some of the existing legislation maybe coming up with detailed rules on particular aspects for example cyber security in the networks or data exchange in the electricity market but also making sure that we get the right incentives for investment in the uptake of IT technologies in the energy sector the right incentives for the whole system to invest in the highest cyber security standards and to make sure that the IT sector itself is also a driver for sustainability. So on the one hand making sure that the energy consumption of the IT sector is the most efficient possible and also a driver for investment in renewables so seeing, trying to see if we can push for example power purchase agreements where big investments in IT consumption like data centers are directly coupled with investments in renewables and that we can use the waste heat from data centers for heating needs where we are as you may know also very still have a big challenge to make that renewal electrification and making electricity renewable base that's all going very well when it comes to making heating renewable base that is much more tricky so if we have a lot of waste heat from data centers let us try to see if we can use that heat to heat houses but of course this is not an easy not an easy thing to do because it means that you need to bring different parties together it may have consequences for let's say the speedy investments in data centers if they need to be linked to district heating systems and the profile of let's say heat demand from a district heating system is of course not the same as the profile of waste heat production from a data center so how can we make those two match that is not an easy question and I think this is maybe also an issue of technology and heating or cooling storage but also a matter of bringing parties together so all of these things we will be looking at in this digitalization of energy action plan but one of the biggest things we want to look at is how can we promote data sharing in the energy sector for a smarter energy system so to make sure that the market that we want to create for flexibility so rewarding consumers you, me, anybody that drive electric cars or that have heat pumps in their houses or big cooling warehouses or big aluminum smelters that they are incentivized to make a continuous calculation if they actually want to consume electricity or show flexibility in their consumption or production pathos so that they can help integrating renewables so giving market signals both in the wholesale market so the hourly prices for electricity giving price signals to consumers to consume when the electricity price is low and maybe consume less when the electricity price is high but also giving signals on for example when there is congestion in the network somewhere locally that locally there are market signals for people to either increase or decrease their consumption or production or for distributed assets like batteries in electric cars to contribute to the balancing of the system and keeping the frequency stable this may sound like futuristic scenarios but it's actually already happening there are a lot of projects already happening where we are testing these solutions there are already projects in the market so to say solutions in the market being rolled out for example some of the main TSOs in Europe I think from the top of my head the Dutch one of the German TSOs the Swiss and Italian TSOs working together with electric car companies to offer benefits for smart charging which can bring benefits up to 500 euros for individual car owners and really just make a difference in 5 minutes postponing the charging from time to time so these are concrete things where let's say flexibility in the market can help integration of renewables but all of this of course requires seamless data exchange there may be some assets like electric cars that can bring quite a lot of benefit have 500 euros is considerable but in the end if we want to integrate more renewables we need to reach out to all these flexibilities and the sums of money available may not be that high and so we need to make sure that this market is simple and easily accessible and that has to do with the way the market is designed what type of products are traded so we are looking into that how do we design these markets what are common functionalities for the products that are traded so that they are somewhat similar conditions in the EU but also on the data exchange if every company that wants to enter this market and offers smart solutions to the consumer needs to invest in completely new software interactions need to find out where can I find the data what is the format if all these things are not standardized it will take a long time for these markets to take off and the entrance cost into this market will just become higher so we want to make this easy how can we make the data exchange work and this is one of the priority areas if we talk about the energy data spaces and we think that if we create this for flexibility markets we create this for smart buildings we can then build a lot of other uses on top of it like for example making this available to cities for better planning monitoring of infrastructure development so together with our colleagues in Connect we are working on support for data spaces and we are looking at many of the projects that we've been funding also together with Connect to see that we get them to cooperate to make sure that the data exchange systems that they set up in individual projects are not just for these projects but that they are interoperable between them and so in Horizon Europe in the next year we will support testing of energy data spaces I think we want to support three or four projects and we want them to have let's say work packages where they work together to make sure that these data spaces are compatible because one thing we don't want is that we make brilliant solutions for the energy sector in splendid isolation of other sectors we think there is an important benefit from a consumer perspective that if you give your data out once that it can and you agree that there are different offers brought to you that you know you don't need to say then again to your health insurer and then to a home security company all the time a new format a new way of sharing your data we want to make this easy so that from a service point of view that can be integrated offers brought to consumers because we think that this may actually make the energy transition easier and this is in the end beneficial for the consumer and for the EU as a whole so we're working very closely on this and I think in this of course it's a matter of innovating and finding new solutions and seeing what happens and this you know this is not a traditional innovation so we need to go fast and we need to make it in an open surrounding and I think this is where open source comes in I think from the let's say digital point of view there has been quite some experience with how to support it in energy not so much yet but we want to support this for example through this cooperation in energy databases we want to create an interoperability community where people come together and work together and as a way of moving forward research innovation we also want to look at what is a governance for a data space so how do we actually make this happen so that it becomes future proof in the sense that when new cases are identified the parties come together and make it happen and that it doesn't depend on legislation each time to make it happen because that will be too slow and so I think with the governance we can also cover for one of the issues which I think we need to address namely how do we make sure that innovations don't reinforce the dominant position of some and make sure that this indeed stays an open community and triggers innovation because we're going to need it and we need to be fast because climate change is happening and we are in a hurry so thank you for having me here and looking forward to this discussion fantastic thank you very much Marc while I invite actually Laurent Satiko and Shuli onto the screen just to say that I think it was an excellent introduction to many of the topics I'm very very sure we'll be touching on now in the panel first Laurent will give us a little bit of introduction to his perspective and then he will start moderating the panel so I hand over to Laurent and let's listen to him thank you so I hope everyone hear me and thank you Marc for this excellent introduction very long list of items to develop in the next few months so this is very interesting to see these fast developments I'm a firm believer that Europe is the head of the rest of continents when it comes to coming to need zero ambitions and it's good to be supported to fuel this development through RND maybe before introducing the other member of the panel I just want to make a few introductory comments to complement what Marc has said first as an expert of this energy domain is really insist on the importance of the connectivity of the end-to-end value chain it's about connecting offshore wind down to EVs and PV and prosumers so the other element is really the importance to cross-sectorial integration efforts and so thinking energy domain across sectors and the last thing of course is the open source and the interest of the technology stack on one side but also in the critical size of communities of trained developers capable of accelerating development in the future I think this is a big value of open source moving forward I'm also having a heart of a smart end association here and we are working right now on what are the key challenge to overcome in this digital chapter and we really three main ones the outcomes are not yet fully developed and we will produce a paper in the coming few months one is how to unlock basically a new approach with prosumer data related to ownership consents basically interoperability of data being able to compare benchmark as well as protect the data to create trust among the prosumers the second one is really ease of data access and market access I think you mentioned it clearly Mark so this is about making use of consistent data set across TSOs DSOs getting access to relevant data related to carbon footprint measurement real time unified API so having as easy and possible plug and play data across the ecosystem and the last one is last but not least is the cybersecurity and we recognize that the grid is a critical infrastructure and we need to protect it and take proportionate measures also into the aggregator space and we as a smart end community are ready to play a role here making sure we provide the right level of security. So this would be the introductory comment I would like to do before giving the floor to the two panelists we have here will represent very well the open source community so maybe I would like to start with Sachiko and give her the floor and later introduce what is her view regarding this few challenge so Sachiko the floor is yours Yeah Thank you I should say first of all that I'm not an energy expert per se so some of my contribution I think will be based on how open source can contribute more generally to interoperability and these arguments are also applicable to other IT supported domains such as e-health and smart industry smart cities basically anything prefixed by e or smart and many politicians like that so apologies if I then in those comments sort of overlook some specific challenges that the energy sector is facing right now I also can I think have as open form Europe we have in the last 10 years or more you know focused on not just open source but also standards and other ways of achieving interoperability for sort of for healthy IT IT market and I have had some specific interest in the smart grid standardization effort over the last 10 years I think also from there there are some lessons learned and I'm interested to see how open source can help overcome some of the challenges that were identified during sort of 10 years of smart grid standardization efforts so you know as Mark said really the promises of smart energy, smart grids and sort of a decentralized system that integrates renewable resources this can only be realized if and scaled really in a meaningful way if different existing systems can interoperate and so this is really I mean I think this is always mentioned but I think we sometimes I think underestimate just how huge this challenge is and I think often the starting point is of course proprietary systems that work well on their own but were never sort of meant to integrate with with other systems and this was recognized of course by the European Commission and I think 10 years ago the European Commission made a quite sort of quite a big effort and put quite a bit of pressure on the ESOs to initially I think it was foreseen that there would be a sort of a complete set of interoperability standards you know agreed on by 2012 or something like that and I think 10 years later we can see that interoperability is still a challenge to be overcome in order to realize these benefits and I I think there's some interesting for me personally some interesting insights from the systems of systems literature and thinking which basically looking at smart grid shows that while we sometimes talk about the need to develop standards we can also say that there are many suitable standards available you know solutions are available best practices are available but really you know in the absence of a sort of central authority there's always going to be a sort of a tendency for the development of a multitude of proprietary solutions with the proliferation of interfaces and in the case of smart grid an arbitrary development of the smart grid and so I think politically we are not in a place where we can expect a central authority to go in and basically make a decision on hundreds of standards that are needed and sort of mandate the use of those standards and so in the kind of top down decision making I'm really excited about the possibility that open source and collaborative open source that you know that that can play you know and in supporting standards but also you know overcoming some of the challenges you know that are needed for for sort of coordination and you know and so speed up innovation to link interoperability without fearing lock-in and so I'm going to stop there because I think you know Sivan already came on screen probably saying I took too long already so happy to hear from the rest of the panelists and looking forward to an interesting discussion Thank you so very straight to the point on interoperability and so maybe now surely you want to bring your own view on this various challenge maybe through the perspective of what you see also developing in the US on this particular point Thanks to everybody I really appreciate being able to be here and you know I want to thank Open Forum Europe I want to thank the European Commission I want to thank LARN I want to thank all of you because you're leading something and so I don't really think of myself as being you know from the US I think of myself as somebody who sleeps in the US but works in Europe and works in Asia and works in North America because we have a global we need to find global solutions and while all energy is local we do have to find a way to drive the sort of interoperability I think a lot of times when we talk about energy we talk about sector coupling I'm aware of sector coupling not just between you know oil and gas but I'm also looking at it really from the standpoint of telecommunications and 5G cloud automobile and so all those kinds of interoperabilities just as a by way of introduction so LF Energy is an umbrella project within the Linux foundation the Linux foundation is the home of the Linux kernel it's also home to 700 other projects and so I think a lot of times people don't really understand what is the Linux foundation and it's basically a it's a platform and that's how I would want people to think about it it's a platform for pre-competitive cooperation because basically what we're doing is we have when we lay down the non differentiating commodity parts of the grid of the future we're essentially laying down the roads we're laying down the pathways by which we are going to be able to trade and move electrons and enable our economies the evolution of gross domestic product fossil fuel and carbon we're in lock step and it's really relatively new in the last 150 years before that really all economic wealth was pretty much flat and it was concentrated with a few sovereign rulers and I think that we really have to recognize that what we are doing is fun we are engaging in economic transformation because it is the electrons that we use that power our economies and power our lives and so it's a very different set of challenges that face us so just kind of back to that so elephant energy really I think what we can provide the most and I think that when I look at Open Forum and I look at the work that SMARTN is doing and the European Commission at the heart of it really is the need for governance it's the ability to kind of make decisions about how we steer and whenever you have multiple stakeholders that come together having some mechanism for steering that is equitable is really critical and so in that context the template that we use for all of our projects really it's about keeping them open anybody can participate and no one actor can put too much pressure on really the defining direction of either the software or the technology there's been a lot of conversations about SPOs and this is like a really hot topic for me right now and I would really welcome conversations you know with Open Forum with Sachiko and your group so let me just give you one little snippet and then I'll stop I have a whole list of things that I would love to talk about but this is one snippet which is a real life example that is live so I have within LF Energy we have three digital substation projects and we also have a project called Fledge Power which is a multi-protocol gateway so we have Compass, CPath and Fledge Power and all of them have a dependency on 61850 and are really focused on being able to bring data from the edge up into the control room for network coordination we are moving quite far forward but at the heart of the 61850 standard coming out of TC57 are a set of code snippets and they're called code contributions that sit inside sort of the open repository of the standard in order to make a change to those code snippets you actually have to make you have to send it back up to the central office of the IEC in order to evolve the standard which means you actually cannot move at the speed of technology you cannot move at the speed of open source, you cannot move at the speed of digital and so we have this great hope for digital and we have invested enormous amounts of standards but our standards really do not provide a gateway for us to really move quickly we have to kind of take the standard and then we have to go and redo it all over again so I have developers in these projects who are having to recreate stuff that's already been created in order to separate it from IEC and IEC is unmovable about this and I don't really know what to do other than developers you move forward and just make whatever it is that has been already done irrelevant because we'll build a better mouse trap and I don't think that's good for SDOs I don't think it's good for what we're trying to do with decarbonization and I don't think that it is in the best interest of interoperability so that's the kind of thing I would like us to work on together Thank you Shuli and Sachiko I think this is a clear message related to the role of open source in view of the further deployment of standardization I myself agree with the statement which has been made in the sense that standardization has developed a lot largely related to SDOs there is no doubt but we lag behind when it comes to usage of the standard and I think the reasons bridge reports you probably saw clearly defining the various data structure in place illustrate the complexity of the structure and so maybe Mark you have few ideas in how to move forward with the guidance provided from the open source community I would like to say yes I do and this is it but I'm afraid we're not there yet I think I'm grateful Shuli for bringing this up and it's a topic that I think we want to deal with and indeed the let's say so bridge has so gathering many of the research and innovation projects that we've been supporting many of them having a data exchange dimension have looked into all these different reference architectures and standards and what is missing and what is available but I think we more and more realize that that is not entirely the issue and let's say whether there are standards or not is maybe not the issue in particular in the open source point of view and so let's say what we know in terms of objective is that we want to make sure that these projects that we are funding are scalable as Sachiko mentioned if we and so we also so we don't want individual projects to develop for them and then if somebody else says this looks nice I wouldn't do something similar then he either completely copies what somebody else has done or he develops his own thing because as Sachiko said it needs to be linked with existing systems and nobody I think well let's say hardly anybody in the EU in the energy sector has done absolutely nothing about digitization so there are always existing systems that it needs to link with maybe some of more advanced and some are less advanced but nevertheless we need to link these things up and so at a higher level of objective as I said we are requiring a cooperation between these different projects to see how this can be made interoperable how we can connect the standards in different projects and one of the let's say our so to say flagship project that we funded in 2020 is a project of something like 25 or 30 million euro in total called OneNet where we have explicitly asked look at all these existing projects gather as many network operators around the table as you can and cooperate with let's say projects that look at the consumer side of the story and the added value for the consumer but work towards a common set of interoperable APIs, data exchange systems that can be a basis for something that can be used everywhere and so we have really stopped to fund individual projects at looking at develop your own database or platform and it's that type of thing that we want to support further with the interoperability community in Horizon Europe but so at a high level we have said we want you to cooperate and create interoperable systems but to be honest we have not translated that and so we're putting money at it to make that happen but we haven't translated that into a policy measure to basically accompany the funding and I think that is actually from my point of view the ambition with the digitalization of energy action plan and the solution has to be in a governance that makes this work but how exactly that's going to happen that I'm afraid I can't say that yet and so that's why I'm also here to you know to learn about this thing. So thank you Marc maybe to you Sachiko and Shuli do you have any idea in mind on how to overcome the current challenge which we see with ESOs and accelerate deployment of this new interoperability approach maybe take example of other sector than energy and electricity. Yeah, Shuli if you mind thinking a little bit more about that so if you have good reaction. So yeah there's a document and I can when you're talking I'll look for it and pop it into the chat window that we wrote on open source and standards around the telecommunications and I think that largely LF networking which houses the 5G deployment software the open source software has had pretty satisfying kind of iterative relationships with Etsy and with others. There's been for whatever reason within those communities there's been you know more interest for doing that at any rate we're going to do another one and I would be really interested maybe in doing it with you on open source and energy and standards and really and you know I I don't think it's in any way a shame or bad that we don't actually know how we're going to get someplace I think we are in a process and we are going to have to find our ways and that you know at the heart of that has to be a kind of good will I don't think that my interest is in destroying the value that's created in standards organizations I just want to move them into the 21st century so that there's a much faster iterative process and another example is in 1511-8 which came out of IEC the last version was 2014 and then the next one was you know I think 2019 there's six year cycles and 1511-8 is the vehicle to grid standard and you know it's like we need to be moving at the speed of technology we need to be understanding in real time what is the impact of electric mobility at scale in terms of how do we use it for flexibility how do we provide resources back to the charging how do we provide resources from the charging when does it work when does it not work and you know six year standard cycles is like we're going to all be dead and you know maybe it's because I'm in California maybe because I am we went into fire season in May I don't think you can understand what it's like to look ahead for the next six months and not know whether you are going to burn down and you know it's nauseating and I feel like we dodged a bullet that the Pacific Northwest and Canada are experiencing now where my friends in Seattle and Portland had a hundred and fifteen degree or fifty something degree weather yesterday so it is not abstract to me so having like seven year cycles is not an option we have to come up with something better and I think from a good will perspective I want IEC to do its thing I want ISO to do its thing I want these organizations to convene experts and build these standards I just want to then be able to take those standards and begin moving at the speed of deployment and commercialization and I think that that's the benefit of the whole world and I think it's to the benefit of economies which technically is what their reason for being this I think that's a very good point Shuli and I have a lot of sympathy for your speech about the IEC 15118 I think this is for me the irony of the extreme or slow development of interoperability standard which end up having EVs which are V2G ready on one side and basically a charging infrastructure which have OCCP 2.0 but where we have a layer here which does not exist and does not enable V2G simply because of a slow standardization process so I think this is for me the exact example of we need to be pragmatic and be much faster in embedding and deploying technology moving forward Sachiko you wanted to say something sorry for that. Yeah no that's okay I was thinking about your question still and seeing and thinking about how I could avoid getting too theoretical I think from my point of view and what I sort of might ask to the commission maybe would be to sort of without pointing blame understanding also that when you have this situation of sort of heterogeneous solutions let's say in order to reach interoperability there is going to be some trade-offs in the sense that not everybody will be happy to some extent because and it's kind of like everybody wants to see a solution but there is no agreement on which solution to choose if you will and I think given that we are looking at this as part of climate change given that everybody says that we need sort of third order regulatory innovation you know we need to start I think there I would like to see in saying sort of drawing from you know Lorraine you said about what can we learn from other sectors and for me having looked at you know focus on interoperability for the last 15 years actually there are some sort of how can I say looking at eHealth for example or I think or in the 1990s the European Commission wanted to promote interoperability between you know health care systems in Europe and this is still a challenge and I think we are not in again I want to say that we are not living in this kind of society where we'll have necessarily a top-down decision on these things and maybe that's not even sort of desirable but I think if we're going to really solve this issue we need to start by saying you know there might be trade-offs you know not everybody is aligned and focus on finding they want to find a solution but maybe you know they're not agreeing on which solution I think the commission can play a role there in sort of it's not that everybody is you know there might be you know just to say that there could be frictions even though everybody wants the same thing you know there isn't agreement on which way to go and there you might need to have you know somebody step in and say okay this is tough but you know we need to not make everybody as happy So Mark are you ready to take the call for action? Yes I mean that's what the idea is behind this plan and that's why we're emphasizing so much that with let's say from my point of view you know we always say digitalization is a good thing and we always say data exchange is a good thing but you know then what and I think that it's time for us to answer this question then what so how are we actually going to make it happen and that's also why I maybe I took a bit of time to explain this use case that from our point of view is key it's not data sharing for the sake of data sharing I think there is a first and urgent use case which is the integration of renewables and the flexibility markers that we need for it and we have a lot of so yeah so I wanted to respond to Sachiko also in that relation because I think we have quite a few tools to do something about this and of course we can always say we need a new legislation and we can propose something but already with the clean energy package implementing exit we have there as well as which gives us for such use cases that have to do with the grid and almost everything we're talking about has to do with the grid gives us a let's say a strong mandate to act in that area based on the smart meters the smart grids and the data exchange there then we have with the eco design framework which started from the point of view of appliances and the promoting energy efficiency of appliances also the smartness of those appliances is within the scope so we can also act there and it's I find that the interesting part of the work that we're doing at the moment is to see also how within even our own DG we can bring the different discussions on smart appliances, smart buildings and smart grids together and present that at a career package because if we move on all these things in the same direction I think we can really make a difference I don't think we're there yet but I think we're on track to get there and the so we are as a commission we can propose things and we are let's say the executive branch show to say so we are very good at setting the agenda I think that we are not we are less strong and let's say the nature of the EU is also that if things get up into very technical discussions where there are differences between countries we get lost and we make fuzzy compromises and that is very often what happens but I think that where we if we set up a so to say a governance that can be faster than what Julie said and not have five years for every standard but really say you know this is the way in which we have a few key principles on how we exchange data and if you start sharing your data then this is what you need to do and this is what you can expect from others and use that as a setting within which people need to agree on how they're actually going to make that happen for new issues or new cases that come up then our ability to set the agenda can really drive the working towards solutions so we are you know it doesn't mean that we can in the end say this is what it needs to be but we can say we need a standard that solves or we need a data exchange system that solves a V2G issue for example and then we can make that happen and we can the least we can do is make very visible what the tradeoffs are if it then becomes political again but at the moment many of these tradeoffs are you know hidden in very technical discussions but they are not I think that's also one of the things that we we have an interest in acting on so that because if we make them visible we also make that the political choice is clear and we make the debate clear and I think that's also something I think why which I see as a key reason for us to act okay so I would like to point here as well a comment which is made in the chat which I find very interesting is the fact that there are also a lot of standard empirically developed from community I would say bottom-up so more developer community I suppose and that could be also a way of basically challenging about the top-down standard with faster prototyping methods and facilitating I would say adoption from the open source community level through a smaller baby step in a way maybe I think to your point the comment I would like to do Mark is I know you have in mind the interoperability code and all these discussion shows the need for going beyond purely the smart meter when we talk about interoperability code I think that's one of our strong idea in smart and we are really into something which is a broad in the energy domain and this is an important element maybe going back to the question to Shuli and Sachiko is do you see apart from interoperability aspects do you see other challenges in using open source in the energy domain we talked a lot about the beauty of open source and how it can accelerate bring community together what do you think are the challenge which you're right now face Shuli I was going to go for another benefit so you know let me think about some challenges you're muted Shuli I don't know if you're so I'm a social scientist too so I may I may understand the grid and I may understand data and I may understand technology I've spent my entire career in technology but fundamentally you know everything that is facing us right now really is going to resolve down to the human dimension which is that part of the problem is not that open source isn't a good idea it's that we don't have people trained and organizations that are strategically designed to actually move at the speed of change and so you know I can talk to a utility here in California who goes this is great but we're not organized we're going to have to completely reorganize ourselves to even be able to think about how do we jump on this how do we be with this so there's the human dimension so there's the inertia as the governing principle of the grid is deeply embedded in the organizations that govern the grid and engage with the grid and so I think that we have to begin talking really frankly about how are we going to engage in change in transformation given that humans hate change just they'll pretty much like change is probably the scariest thing to most people and in fact one could say that the difference between kind of a liberal and a conservative is their relationship to change and so in order to power systems are a deeply conservative part of society and I don't mean that their social values are necessarily conservative but they typically they tend towards being conservative so how are we going to help them change that's number one the second thing is how are we going to create the market signals for the vendors that they actually need to do this because they're still trying to get as much out of their old portfolio which to me looks a little bit like steering by looking in the rear view mirror you know it's like they're looking that way but they're really looking what's happening behind them so and I believe that the markets and you know Mark what you were saying I would say that it's not just that one of the most critical signals that the government consent are the market signals and so I would and I think that that will help but then even with those organizations I have spent the last year on weekly and monthly meetings a stand up monthly meeting with the major OEMs to help them create open source program offices so if we want to maintain cyber security if every piece of software needs to have a software bill of materials these are human processes about how we compose and build software and that has to be an entirely new organizational structure that has to be brought up so that's my like as much work as we can do in the next year to two years I one final thing is you know having gone through a lot of digital transformations with corporations global corporations you know I would frequently the thing that made the most sense to me is the competency maturity which is this notion that the complexity if you have a complex vision what you have to be able to do is to build capacity because it's the capacity that's going to allow you to achieve that vision and so gosh you know I would love that to see that as be part of your policy is is really how are we going to train all these power system engineers who are digitally native as well how are we going to do this how are we going to organizational transformation because there are a lot of DSOs and TSOs that are just they're still wondering when the burning platform is going to happen and I'm kind of like whoa let me tell you about my burning platform you know which is I look outside okay so a lot of training a lot of change to happen in the control room environments and grids so they are not around the table so we should not be too too difficult with them I'm coming from this environment what I can say it's also in fairness to grid operator very complex IT system to migrate with a lot of legacy tools and so this this path is not necessarily easy to engineer I would say that way so maybe such you want to say something yeah yeah no I think it's a good point and I think I hope in my input I'm not pointing fingers exactly I just more pointing out some of the complexity and what you're saying there I think I thought it was sort of encouraging words from Mark about sort of the tools that the commission has already you know in order to kind of provide some sort of governance in specific areas I think it's important then to recognize that there are certain parts that are maybe less or easier I mean I mean that in a relative sense you know I think some of obviously I think Europe has been quite successful in coming to you know having MOUs with industry to agree on a common charger for electric vehicles etc and I think you know what it's also because there are fewer players involved and I think you know recognizing that the sheer complexity of the effort and the number of players I think that's something we need to do you also asked about sort of I don't want to dodge the question about sort of challenges with open source but I do want to first also kind of say that one of the challenges I think is that there is some there are some misconceptions about open source still I think you know at the policy level or at various levels in management etc where there is still some notion I mean security often comes up of course when we're talking about energy and you know critical infrastructure and there is still some I think misconception about sort of open source being less secure even though you know I think in the industry or sort of in the IT industry this has been debunked since a long time I think there is still some sense that open source should be less secure whereas you know I guess from our point of view the opposite is the case on the other hand I should say when it comes to the challenge you know not just talking about the benefits of open source I do think it's important to recognize that it's not going to solve every issue and I think that was also the issue with standards standards are not going to solve every issue open source projects not going to solve every issue you know surely talked about the human factor and you know even on skills and change management it's a huge project and I think what's great about what Mark was saying was that really taking this holistic view and linking it to sort of climate change and what needs to happen really at the societal level and understanding that we need to we need these looking at all these aspects in order to you know to get where we're going so okay can I add something that what Mark said so I'm really happy to hear that you're also looking at the bottom up you know the loads and the way the devices are made because if we are you know the power system network operators absolutely rightfully should be completely concerned all day every day with that top down how are we going to manage a low inertia grid but if we really want to move past that 55% because you know I think that 55-60% is going to be easy when we look back from 2015 we're going to be like wow that was a piece of cake it's going to be that last 40% that last 30% that last 20% that is going to be increasingly painful and in order to be able to optimize for it we have to fundamentally change how it is that our devices consume electricity what a belief that a microgrid is a multi-million dollar multi-year process what if a microgrid is like a laptop computer I mean by the definition of the IEEE a laptop is a microgrid it can plug in it can and then it can operate on its own separate from a grid what if you know like most of our load bearing actually had the capacity to be its own microgrid that is a really different way of thinking about how we actually pull electrons down how we use them and that kind of flexibility so I love that you're looking at that and it's something I spend a lot of time thinking about yeah I think surely your point is very interesting what we see is while the power system will further complexify and the amount of renewable and intermittency will grow there is quite a nice chance that the resiliency will be brought bottom up and not anymore top down and so the microgrids and the vehicle to grids and the prosumer and this element of connectivity of the grid edge with the back end is really to be rethought about and that's much less about central architecture control and command down to the grid edge but really a federation of storage devices and basically working together in supporting the system to be as resilient as possible and saving the system sometime during the blackout scenarios I think these are very very important trends moving forward Marc what are your thoughts in view of this various idea what do you think the open source can help moving forward good question and may I react to a few things because I find this discussion super interesting and a few thoughts came to my mind so maybe I can react to a few other things as well if that's ok for you and then I'll answer your question the contribution of open source first what you said Julie about governments creating markets I fully agree what I was referring to is what is the grip that we have as a commission or as EU on the detailed rules and standards and other things like network codes to make data exchange happen and I was basically referring to this as something that ends up being very technical where the process it becomes also sometimes difficult to manage because some of these technical details are difficult to understand in the political level and then the outcomes are a bit unsure so that's why managing the agenda and setting the agenda in a framework where others are forced to solve it I think is an important way of working but I think in terms of creating markets I personally take a lot of pride in the clean energy package and what we have introduced there in terms of the requirement on network operators to reward the market for flexibility and I think this was really I mean Doranken is a better neutral judge if my assessment of it is right but from my point of view when we were talking about things 5, 6, 7 years ago and we're talking about demand response we were always talking about reacting to wholesale market price signals and maybe a little bit opening up balancing markets for smaller loads and I think with the clean energy package we've made a real change by saying network operators for any type of flexibility grid services etc the baseline solution is creating a market and if you can't do that because there is not enough technologies yet you can tender and you can find other solutions but the baseline is creating a market and I think that is something that makes a big change in terms of reaching out to all these distributed loads and that will make us end up with the solutions that you were mentioning surely about looking at a laptop as a microgrid and I think what you said if we look in 2050 at what we're doing now we will say that was actually easy I remember 10 years ago when we were talking about 20% renewables meaning 34% renewables electricity in the grid in Europe there were a lot of people saying this is impossible we don't know what we're getting into so the fact that we're now able to say that this was actually easy and that we're kind of confident to say that the next 10 years are going to be easy I think that's also something we can be proud of let's say we together in terms of all the parties active in the market who have made this possible and I used to joke that 5 years ago about demand response the only time when you can't do demand response is when there's a football game happening like now Germany against England now people are looking exactly we may see some increasing but in terms of so now the issue is security of the streaming signal but electricity if you charge your tablet and you're looking it on your tablet it's even from that point of view not a problem so the once we start creating signals for demand response it can go I think much further than that we anticipate now and what you're saying is we can actually start putting a price on security of supply and I think there is where I can also relate to what Laurent said about the difficulties for network operators of transforming the system because of course we want them to be conservative because we have a very high conservative supply standard and we don't necessarily want network operators to start fooling around with this and test a few new things and then say I know we had a power cut for a few days but we were testing a new solution for our digital stuff so this conservativeness that they have has also brought us many benefits but I agree with you that we're also coming with this the way in which the grid is operated on a much more bottom up system where I think quite a change in how a network topology is looked at and where you can put value on flexibility and demand response and security of supply that are going much further than what we are currently thinking of and I think this is something we're just at the beginning the only thing where I see this actually also really being taken forward is when we talk about cyber security and energy actually the decentralization can also be a big advantage in cyber security attacks because you can isolate parts of the grid because of the decentralized way of operating so in that sense cyber security can be of course a risk and a problem in many things but it's happening let's say the digitization is happening anyway and then the decentralization of the energy system can actually be a real contributor and a driver behind a new way of how to manage the grid that actually drives it in the same direction as the stuff that we are discussing about now so I think that's good and then to bring that to what you were saying Laurent about the role of open source and also the comment from Stuart in the chat and this is what I mentioned also in the beginning I think in energy we have not really incorporated this approach that much and I hope we can well I count on being able to do more of that let's say the ability to take parts of the system and play around with it and experiment and thereby drive the innovation much faster than through let's say the traditional ways of cooperation I think that is something that we want to incentivize and we're also let's say as a commission we're looking into different instruments how to support that because the traditional horizon Europe big grants funding are not necessarily the best ways to trigger that and so with other instruments as part of this research support toolbox I think we're doing that and we're learning from our colleagues from Connect how to gather people around an ecosystem approach and I think this is what we would like to do with this interoperability community so there we really want to bring people together who are all testing and trying new things and we're trying to come in touch with each other to say we tried this here why don't we try it somewhere else so if you tried somewhere something small bottom up give you a bigger playground so to say to test if this can work in other systems as well and create a bottom up drive by by giving as I said a bigger playground to the innovators as a community to try out new things and I think in conjunction with that again in the clean energy package the rights we've given to consumers in terms of self-consumption and in terms of organizing themselves through peer to peer communities and those kind of reinforcements of their rights I hope also help in creating this so to say playground for people to take initiatives that don't necessarily depend on the traditional innovation structures and you know the challenge for us is bringing all these things together and that is I think that's an eternal eternal effort by the time I come here and they say it's done and we are probably in a completely carbon neutral world and surely can chill out on the beach the whole summer again I don't have much of a beach so thanks Marc for this good summary and I fully agree that the clean energy package is also extremely innovative on to the prosumer community peer-to-peer organization of all these transactions and that's also potentially a very interesting element to develop maybe a few words of conclusion from usually and I said she go on what we discussed what do you want to take forward with you and try to develop as next steps or any other conclusion you want to do you know as the host do you want to have the last word I was going to give the last word to you to be sort of to act as a good host and I should also say that I'm kind of speaking in my personal capacities and giving my personal use so but I'll give you the last word and I just do a quick word actually to come back to something that Marc just said about cybersecurity and also linking to what Shuli said about conservative certain conservatism in the system I think that again speaks to my point about misconception sometimes about open source to some extent that I agree Marc with your point that we don't want to take risks with our energy and our grid and I think open source is not only about sort of innovative new things but to some extent you know being locked in I think I'm not a cybersecurity expert but you know it's a dynamic space and in order to you know to keep up with with threats you need to not be locked in you need to be able to have access to your code in order to adapt to new security cybersecurity threats so I also think open source can play a role in creating a safer more secure grid as well as well as being sort of innovative in terms of solutions Shuli I'll give the last word to you I would like to work I mean really literally I am in process of putting forward doing a white paper on standards and open source with regards to energy and I put that in the chat window and you know I think this is going to have to be a collective effort of goodwill we don't want to destroy value we want to help everyone change and begin moving at the speed of the urgency that's facing us so that would be like I'd like to do that with you with open forum Europe you know I have a request to Mark because when you're talking and you know and as you know I mean one of the horizon 2020 projects swanio is in LF energy Amto has become my technical advisory council chair so you know we recognize the value of the investments our community does of the investments of the European Commission what what I have found complicated is how to ensure that there is you know I'm member supported and so you know it's like I don't exist because somebody's given me a grant or somebody is paying for it I exist because my members support it so in part it's like trying to figure out how do we create environments that create commercialization pathways that enable diffusion globally it's one I mean I know that your mandate is Europe however decarbonization has to we have to do this globally and one of the great things about software and digitalization is this ability to abstract complexity I believe we can take software from the Netherlands and we can use it in California or in Ohio and we can modify it and reconfigure it and so it has those benefits and then one day we want to send it to Asia South America Africa and the whole world eventually so my challenge to you would be can we figure out how to work together to keep LF energy healthy financially not because we're trying to create an empire but because we're trying to create a home and an ecosystem a really functioning garden for those investments so that people can build commercial dependencies on them and so that's that's the value that I think we can offer and love your help in figuring that out and I haven't figured it out either with the US or with Europe or with Canada but I'm trying and I think it's because it's new but we'll figure it out so this has been great this has really been great and Lauren you're wonderful and I'm so happy that you've created this new future for yourself it's cool thank you Ashley once you will also have to explain how a startup like me can work with the open source because it's not always easy but that's I think too far for the discussion of today maybe I give the flow back to Chivan for the final world and I very much enjoyed the three panelists I think this was very transparent open exchange nothing hidden and this was really appreciated on my side thanks a lot thank you also really from our side as somebody who has spent the last year researching open source policies I can say I really learned a lot and I also to say that I think we're very happy to kind of accept your surely you are what is it when you hold your hand out well the metaphor I'm not managing but anyway I think you know what I'm saying because we have done a lot of research on open source and standardization over the last years ironically in this moment that we put on a launch series earlier this year six I think installments also on open source standardization we had all manner of open source standardization organizations there that exchanged and I think was really helpful and we've also also wrote a few papers so yes very happy to work on this and also well just to say that also we're really glad as OFE that we had this opportunity to put on the policy series you know when Commissioner Breton at OFE's open source policy summit earlier this year when he challenged open source community to provide input on how open source can support the transition of digitization and the green transition we decided we wanted to put on this series with the aim of providing a few concrete reflections on issues on concrete issues here after events on smart cities on OSPOS, on automotive the European Commission open source impact study on open hardware and today on green transition I think we come a lot we come with a lot of input and hope also those who join come away with some input that we want to bring to policymakers and also thank you to the Eclipse Foundation for enabling us to putting this series together so just to say that we're especially also glad to have had very diverse set of speakers in this series but also a diverse set of attendees which I think from a different professional background which I think also hopefully we'll have enabled to get a few new ideas and to kind of broaden one's own horizon a bit and I think that was definitely also the case for us in a lot of these areas yeah well I think as we go into the summer we're probably all looking forward to finally have some real time off and I think we're taking advantage of that too but to say just come September I can promise we have some very exciting new plans some very exciting new projects that we can't wait to talk about publicly and until then I wish you all the best and talk to you soon thank you thank you very much